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Sorry Tin, Nature Does Not Do CSI.

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tintinnid attempts to undermine the design inference by noting:

Just because something can be made by man does not mean that all occurrences in nature must have an intelligent origin.

Agreed. You have been one of our most vocal critics in recent weeks. But that you would write this statement indicates you have a seriously flawed understanding of the ID project. I recommend that before you spend further hours on this website criticizing ID, that perhaps you might try to understand it first. Then, when you go to criticize it, you will be actually criticizing ID, and not some distorted caricature of ID you’ve made up.

You see, Tin, it does no good to criticize a distorted caricature of ID. Say you were in a gunfight and opposing you down the street were a life-sized cardboard image of the bad guy and the actual bad guy. Which one would you shoot at? I hope you see my point. Go study ID Tin until you actually understand it. Then, if after your studies you still want to criticize it, by all means do so. But if you continue to shoot at the cardboard image, don’t be surprised when you look down and find your arguments are lying on the ground bleeding. For example:

Humans can make diamonds, but not all diamonds are of intelligent origin.

This statement is certainly true as far as it goes but it misses the point. Here are pictures of two diamonds. One is “rough,” i.e., it was shaped by natural forces. The other one was is “finished,” i.e., it was shaped by intelligent forces. Can you tell which is which?

d78824bad5e0e1fbbf1ba1048fed847e

finished

Just because DNA carries information does not mean that it must be of intelligent origin.

You are certainly correct that natural forces (chance/law) can create tiny strings of information. For example, the famous Shakespeare monkey simulator after simulating monkeys typing 10^35 pages, got this string (the longest it ever got) from Act I, Scene I of Timon of Athens:

Poet. Good day Sir

For comparison purposes, here are the first few lines from that scence.

Poet. Good day, sir.
Painter. I am glad you’re well.
Poet. I have not seen you long: how goes the world?
Painter. It wears, sir, as it grows.
Poet. Ay, that’s well known:
But what particular rarity? what strange,
Which manifold record not matches? See,
Magic of bounty! all these spirits thy power
Hath conjured to attend. I know the merchant.
Painter. I know them both; th’ other’s a jeweller.

Take a good look at this number: 10^35. It is unimaginably huge. Yet in all of those pages a blind search was able to come up with only a snippet of Shakespeare.

Now, here’s my question for you. Is the DNA code more like the snippet within the reach of a blind search or is it more like the complete works of Shakespeare?

Comments
One of the favorite and rather dishonest tactics of ID proponents is to equivocate over the different definitions of code. Human languages like English are intelligently designed codes where arbitrary symbols are used as abstractions to pass meanings. The sender and receiver have to agree beforehand on the arbitrary symbols and the abstractions. However, code can also mean merely any physical process where the outputs are mapped to the inputs. Such processes don’t use arbitrary symbols or abstractions. They don’t pass meaning, don’t require agreement between a sender and receiver. When scientists speak of the DNA code they are using the second definition, not the first.
Your first definition contains an error. In no "code" would you ever find an arbitrary symbol. A code in this sense would always follow a system. Arbitrary symbols that are agreed upon beforehand by the sender and receiver cannot be called "arbitrary". They would necessarily be specific (or specified) symbols. The code conveys a meaning, even if that meaning is simply an identifier or classification (i.e. Serial No. 43567891, ISO 3166, UNSPSC 26101612). Regarding the second definition, I've never heard of a "code" being defined as:
any physical process where the outputs are mapped to the inputs
Where did you obtain that definition? I would like to understand the reasoning behind such a definition. That definition is so unrelated to the first that I find it hard to accept as an actual definition. It is literally so broad as to no longer be useful. For instance, I believe I could use that definition to define the process of collecting rain water into a rain barrel at the end of a gutter and down spout. The mapping of the input, or rain on the roof, into the output, or rain barrel, would be accomplished via the gutter and down spout routing. Also, I could use that definition to describe the process of baking bread as "code". In every definition of the word code I have read (English definitions), the definition indicates that code, when used as a noun, conveys a meaning be it an instruction, message, or identification/classification. I've simplified the definition so as not to be so tedious a read.ciphertext
October 23, 2014
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mjazzguitar @ 54
Thorton- Can you please give us some examples of a code being “any physical process where the outputs are mapped to the inputs
Any chemical reaction. The spectral lines in starlight that map to their constituent elements. The width of tree rings that map to the amount of precipitation in the corresponding year. Those are three off the top of my head.Thorton
October 23, 2014
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Mung: "Welcome back A_b, and give your cat a good scratch for me. Any cat lover can’t be all bad. But remind us again why you post here at UD?" My cat is doing well. He lost a fight with a dog but emerged with only a limp. The dog has an infection. I never stopped commenting. I have had many names, but Barry eventually catches on and I get banned. I comment here to see how people will respond. But keep in mind, I have always been civil and polite. Unlike some (OK, just one) I have never called anyone a pathetic snivelling coward for providing a better argument than I have.Acartia_bogart
October 23, 2014
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Thorton- Can you please give us some examples of a code being "any physical process where the outputs are mapped to the inputs" ?mjazzguitar
October 23, 2014
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Thorton:
Mung, I’d be really appreciative if you could supply the CSI calculations for the two diamonds Barry described in the other thread. No one else will. You can be the first.
If you want me to supply the CSI calculations for the two diamonds you'll need to send them to me or convince Barry to send them to me.Mung
October 23, 2014
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Wow, only a complete moron would ask for the CSI of diamonds. Enter Timmy Horton.Joe
October 23, 2014
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Arcatia_bogart:
Hi Mung. I assume that you are referring to the lame DDDs. Is that the ID approach? Whenever you run into an argument that you are having a hard time countering, declare it a DDD and justify not responding to it? Does anybody really think that this tactic fools anybody? It sounds more like a child taking his ball and going home when he doesn’t get his way.
Welcome back A_b, and give your cat a good scratch for me. Any cat lover can't be all bad. But remind us again why you post here at UD?Mung
October 23, 2014
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Rich: "Barry, words can hurt. Also, name-calling someone who can’t respond is beneath you, I think." Unfortunately it is not. So, Barry, can you point to the comment that put Tintinnid (me) in moderation? Let Rich and the others judge for themselves.Acartia_bogart
October 23, 2014
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Barry, words can hurt. Also, name-calling someone who can't respond is beneath you, I think.rich
October 23, 2014
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No AB, when you prove yourself to be a pathetic sniveling coward like Tin, you get put in mod.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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Thorton: "Mung, I’d be really appreciative if you could supply the CSI calculations for the two diamonds Barry described in the other thread. No one else will. You can be the first." Don't hold your breath. When you don't answer Barry's questions, you get put in moderation like Tintinnid. But when Barry, or the ID crown don't answer your questions, you get put in moderation, like Tintinnid. I guess the outcome is inevitable.Acartia_bogart
October 23, 2014
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Mung, I'd be really appreciative if you could supply the CSI calculations for the two diamonds Barry described in the other thread. No one else will. You can be the first.Thorton
October 23, 2014
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Mung: "I don’t think Barry has yet posted an OP that provides a proper category for Thorton’s posts." Hi Mung. I assume that you are referring to the lame DDDs. Is that the ID approach? Whenever you run into an argument that you are having a hard time countering, declare it a DDD and justify not responding to it? Does anybody really think that this tactic fools anybody? It sounds more like a child taking his ball and going home when he doesn't get his way.Acartia_bogart
October 23, 2014
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And we're back to the weasel wars, I guess. Quasi-semi latching weasel :prich
October 23, 2014
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I don't think Barry has yet posted an OP that provides a proper category for Thorton's posts.Mung
October 23, 2014
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Barry: "Thanks KF. Sent ‘em packin’ as usual." The same way that you sent me packing?Acartia_bogart
October 23, 2014
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Barry @36
Are you willing to answer the question Tin was too afraid to answer.
You mean this question?
Is the DNA code more like the snippet within the reach of a blind search or is it more like the complete works of Shakespeare?
Sure. Since it's a loaded question used as a cheap rhetorical device the correct answer is neither. One of the favorite and rather dishonest tactics of ID proponents is to equivocate over the different definitions of code. Human languages like English are intelligently designed codes where arbitrary symbols are used as abstractions to pass meanings. The sender and receiver have to agree beforehand on the arbitrary symbols and the abstractions. However, code can also mean merely any physical process where the outputs are mapped to the inputs. Such processes don't use arbitrary symbols or abstractions. They don't pass meaning, don't require agreement between a sender and receiver. When scientists speak of the DNA code they are using the second definition, not the first. To further muddy the waters humans have created a symbolic code using the letters A, C, G, T, U to represent and describe DNA bases involved in the DNA to amino acid chemical reaction. The descriptive human code is also not the physical mapping of the actual chemical processes. IDers either through ignorance or duplicity claim the DNA code is the first "symbolic abstraction" definition that requires an intelligent sender and receiver. It is not. Science has always been very clear on the difference which is one of many reasons ID's blustering rhetoric about the DNA code gets zero traction in the scientific community. I note with some amusement no one could come up with CSI values for the two diamonds. What a surprise.Thorton
October 23, 2014
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Thanks KF. Sent 'em packin' as usual.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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PS: How twerdun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ-8US5tQNo Geometry involved: 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzObNlsv0W0 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9tMOPAUTAkairosfocus
October 23, 2014
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KF
None of this is particularly difficult to understand
Of course it isn't KF. Yet Thorton's entire blind, irrational faith-based worldview absolutely depends on pretending he can't understand it. Prediction: Thorton will go on pretending he does not understand it.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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Thorton, While I won't actually calculate the FSCO/I content of the brilliant cut diamond shown, I will note that one can specify such a shape using AutoCAD, and that the resulting file size is a reasonable indicator. (And take that as a good indicator of why discussion on strings is WLOG.) The degree of complexity linked to the "sparkle" function (and hoped for hearts and arrows effect) can be understood from this description at Wikipedia as a handy reference:
A brilliant is a diamond or other gemstone, cut in a particular form with numerous facets so as to have exceptional brilliance. The shape resembles that of a cone and provides maximized light return through the top of the diamond. . . . . The original round brilliant-cut was developed by Marcel Tolkowsky in 1919. The modern round brilliant consists of 58 facets (or 57 if the culet is excluded), ordinarily today cut in two pyramids placed base to base: 33 on the crown (the top half above the middle or girdle of the stone), truncated comparatively near its base by the table, and 25 on the pavilion (the lower half below the girdle), which has only the apex cut off to form the culet, around which 8 extra facets are sometimes added. In recent decades, most girdles are faceted. Many girdles have 32, 64, 80, or 96 facets; these facets are not counted in the total. While the facet count is standard, the actual proportions (crown height and angle, pavilion depth, etc.) are not universally agreed upon. One[who?] may speak of the American cut or the Scandinavian standard (Scan. D.N.), to give but two examples . . . . Optimal facet placement is the key to brilliance and more important than facet patterning.
The degree of precision required to produce the relevant optical surfaces and co-ordinated facets in 3-d space easily exceeds 500 - 1,000 bits, or 72 - 143 ASCII characters. Just the summary above shows why. The existence of functionally tied specificity is obvious, as the highlights indicate. Indeed, I have no doubt evolutionary computing can be used to find various peaks in the Brilliant island of function, but also no doubt that to hit on a brilliant cut diamond by blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of our solar system would be an empirically hopeless task. Notice, we even have the name of the inventor and the date. So, even without exact calculation the Chi_500 expression easily tells us that a brilliant cut diamond exhibits FSCO/I beyond a threshold that implicates design. As expected. And as, frankly, was blatantly obvious from the outset. The raw diamond, on the other hand is in effect a warped, malformed octahedron, the ideal diamond crystalline structure. The octahedral pattern is shaped by mechanical necessity and is of low contingency. The warping from that shape, is by a blend of chance and necessity, resulting in high contingency and complexity, but that is not functionally specific. The Chi_500 expression would lock at - 500 bits. That is, to get to FSCO/I characteristic of design, we have five hundred bits of functionally specific complex organisation to go. None of this is particularly difficult to understand relative to say A Level Math, Physics, Chemistry or Biology or the first year 4-year college substantial equivalent. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2014
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Thorton, your attempt at DDD # 15 is duly noted. Are you a coward too? Let's find out. Are you willing to answer the question Tin was too afraid to answer.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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ciphertext @ 29. Of course you are correct. And the obvious answer to that question is what Tin cannot bear to contemplate. Indeed, he is willing to make himself out to be a pathetic sniveling coward rather than answer it and face the prospect of having his faith commitments crushed. Sad.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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Barry, I didn't see your CSI calculations for the two diamonds. Would you please repost them? Thanks!Thorton
October 23, 2014
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Thorton, do you care to take a crack at the question Tin is too cowardly to answer?Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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Tin @ 31. You've been downgraded from "coward" to "pathetic sniveling coward." We're done.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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You cannot contemplate having your faith destroyed. You are afraid. That is why you refuse to answer. Coward.
Rather than debate honestly and openly, why do you rely on loaded questions, insults and declaring that one silly Darwinian debating device or another has been used? If you will pardon the ad hominem (and loaded question, by the way), were you always the last kid picked for the team? But I am sure that if you put some effort into it, you can improve your demeanour. If you can't explain why your Shakespeare monkeys and 10^35 pages is not as obviously absurd as my example at 19, there is no shame in admitting it. Someone once said that a man who can admit his errors, and take ownership of them, is a stand up guy.tintinnid
October 23, 2014
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Barry, would you or another ID proponent please calculate the CSI in the raw and cut diamonds you posted in the OP? Please show your work. I'd like to see how the CSI values indicate the cut diamond was designed while the raw diamond wasn't. Thanks in advance!Thorton
October 23, 2014
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I don't know about a flawed premise. My reading of Barry's question boils down to 1) is the occurrence of DNA as probable as a single line of a Shakespearean Play? or 2) is the occurrence of DNA as probable as a whole Shakespearean Play? What is the false presupposition? That a specific DNA molecule exists?ciphertext
October 23, 2014
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Answer the question Tin. Is DNA complex like the excerpt from Timon of Athens or is it simple like the snippit from the monkey simulation? You know that after you have answered the question (we all know what the answer is after all), I will demonstrate how the premise of the question is not faulty and destroy your blind faith. You cannot contemplate having your faith destroyed. You are afraid. That is why you refuse to answer. Coward.Barry Arrington
October 23, 2014
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