Stephen Hawking says intelligent design of the universe is highly probable? Updated, yes a hoax

_{Denyse O'Leary

March 12, 2015

Cosmology, Intelligent Design, News}

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[Someone kindly tweeted: WDNR is satirical entertainment website & not a source of news –worldnewsdailyreport.com/disclaimer/ Back to work.]

And it isn’t even April 1? Ran March 8 at World News Daily:

The English theoretical physicist and cosmologist, Stephen Hawking, surprised the scientific community last week when he announced during a speech at the University of Cambridge that he believed that “some form of intelligence” was actually behind the creation of the Universe.

Presenting himself before students at the University of Cambridge, the world-famous scientist declared that his years of research on the creation of the cosmos have led him to isolate a strange scientific factor which he says is in many ways contrary to the universal laws of physics.

Personal reasons seem to play a role.

Can’t find evidence it’s a hoax as yet. Watching. Breaking.

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,,,And here is the evidence that quantum information is in fact ‘conserved’;,,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
Besides providing direct empirical falsification of neo-Darwinian claims as to the generation of information solely from a material basis, the implication of finding 'non-local', beyond space and time, and ‘conserved’ quantum information in molecular biology, on such a massive scale, is fairly, and pleasantly, obvious:
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068
Verse and Music:
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Third Day - Tunnel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7V5t9ECZXo
Of supplemental note: Regardless of how much energy we pour into a particle of matter, we can never ‘push’ the particle of matter to the higher dimension of the speed of light:
Question: If a particle with rest-mass were to, in theory, travel at the speed of light, would its mass actually be infinite, or just very, very, very, large, just like it would supposedly take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate the particle to the speed of light in the first place? How can you calculate this? Answer 4: A particle with non-zero rest-mass cannot be accelerated to the speed of light. Put in other terms, the energy of a moving particle with rest-mass m equals E=(r-1)mc2, where the factor r=1/sqrt(1-(v/c)2), with v the speed of the particle and c the speed of light. You can use this formula in an Excel sheet to try different values of rest-mass m and speed v. This equation tells you that you need an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a particle to (exactly) the speed of light, however, you can always take it to, say 99.99999% the speed of light with a finite (but huge) amount of energy. http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1571 “By special relativity, the energy needed to accelerate a particle (with mass) grow super-quadratically when the speed is close to c, and is infinite when it is c. Since you can’t supply infinite energy to the particle, it is not possible to get (a particle with mass) to 100% c.”
bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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Vicky Noratuk's 'tunnel' testimony is interesting to look at because the testimony also includes testimony of her being 'a body of energy, or of light':
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!" – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y
But do we have evidence that humans are ''a body of energy, or of light'? The answer to that question is, surprisingly, yes! Yes we do have evidence that humans are 'beings of light'
Are humans really beings of light? Excerpt: “We now know, today, that man is essentially a being of light.”,,, “There are about 100,000 chemical reactions happening in every cell each second. The chemical reaction can only happen if the molecule which is reacting is excited by a photon… Once the photon has excited a reaction it returns to the field and is available for more reactions… We are swimming in an ocean of light.” http://viewzone2.com/dna.html The Real Bioinformatics Revolution - Proteins and Nucleic Acids 'Singing' to One Another? Excerpt: the molecules send out specific frequencies of electromagnetic waves which not only enable them to ‘see' and ‘hear' each other, as both photon and phonon modes exist for electromagnetic waves, but also to influence each other at a distance and become ineluctably drawn to each other if vibrating out of phase (in a complementary way).,,, More than 1 000 proteins from over 30 functional groups have been analysed. Remarkably, the results showed that proteins with the same biological function share a single frequency peak while there is no significant peak in common for proteins with different functions; furthermore the characteristic peak frequency differs for different biological functions. ,,, The same results were obtained when regulatory DNA sequences were analysed. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/TheRealBioinformaticsRevolution.php
You can see an actual picture of humans emitting the weak 'biophotonic' light here:
Strange! Humans Glow in Visible Light - Charles Q. Choi - July 22, 2009 Schematic illustration of experimental setup that found the human body, especially the face, emits visible light in small quantities that vary during the day. B is one of the test subjects. The other images show the weak emissions of visible light during totally dark conditions. The chart corresponds to the images and shows how the emissions varied during the day. The last image (I) is an infrared image of the subject showing heat emissions. http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/006/481/original/090722-body-glow-02.jpg?1296086873
Moreover, this light coming from the human body is found to a emitted by a quantum process, it is not emitted by a classical process:
Photocount distribution of photons emitted from three sites of a human body - 2006 Excerpt: Signals from three representative sites of low, intermediate and high intensities are selected for further analysis. Fluctuations in these signals are measured by the probabilities of detecting different numbers of photons in a bin. The probabilities have non-classical features and are well described by the signal in a quantum squeezed state of photons. Measurements with bins of three sizes yield same values of three parameters of the squeezed state. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16520060
Thus Vicky Noratuk's testimony that she was ''a body of energy, or of light' during her NDE finds strong support from our present scientific evidence for biophotonics in our material bodies. Moreover, besides the finding of massive biophotonic communication within, and emission from, our material bodies, it is now found that transcendent, and ‘conserved’, (cannot be created or destroyed), ‘non-local’, (beyond space-time matter-energy), quantum entanglement/information, which is not reducible to matter-energy space-time, is now found in our material bodies on a massive scale (in every DNA and protein molecule).
Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature – Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes – University of Toronto – Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/
bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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The reason why blind people can see during Near Death Experiences, and not while they are in their material bodies, is related to the reason why we cannot see higher dimensions while our souls are embodied in our material bodies, and yet people having NDEs can see higher dimensions during their NDEs. Simply put, higher dimensions are invisible to our '3-Dimensional' sight. This following video, which is the first video featured on Anton Zeilinger group's video outreach page,,, https://vcq.quantum.at/outreach/multimedia/videos.html ,,,gets this 'we are blind to higher dimensions' point across quite clearly,,
Dr. Quantum in Flatland - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=takn4FPkId4
People may think we have no evidence for higher dimensions above this one. They would be wrong in that presupposition. In fact, we have far more evidence for a higher dimension(s) above this one than we have for the infinite universes that are postulated by materialists to try to get around the theistic implications of fine-tuning for this universe. In Theism, particularly Christian Theism, it is held there are two ultimate destinies for our eternal souls. Heaven or Hell! And in physics we find two very different ‘eternities’ just as Theism has held for millenia. An orderly eternity associated with Special Relativity and a destructive eternity associated with General Relativity. In this post I will focus on the eternity associated with Special Relativity. One eternity in physics is found ‘if’ a hypothetical observer were to accelerate to the speed of light. In this scenario time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop for the hypothetical observer. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ - video https://vimeo.com/93101738 “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005
Some may think that time, as we understand it, coming to a complete stop at the speed of light is pure science fiction, but, as incredible as it sounds, Einstein’s infamous thought experiment has many lines of evidence now supporting it.
Velocity time dilation tests http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T.....tion_tests “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
This following confirmation of time dilation is my favorite since they have actually caught time dilation on film (of note: light travels approximately 1 foot in a nanosecond (billionth of a second) whilst the camera used in the experiment takes a trillion pictures a second):
Amazing — light filmed at 1,000,000,000,000 Frames/Second! – video (so fast that at 9:00 Minute mark of video you can briefly see the time dilation effect of relativity caught on film!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9vd4HWlVA
This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is also warranted, by logic, because light is not ‘frozen within time’, i.e. light appears to move to us in our temporal framework of time, yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. The only way this is possible is if light is indeed of a higher dimensional value of time than our temporal time is otherwise it would simply be ‘frozen in time’. Another line of evidence that supports the inference that ‘tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday’, at the ‘eternal’ speed of light, is visualizing what would happen if a hypothetical observer were to approach the speed of light. Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).
Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/
And, as pointed out previously in this thread, we have testimonies from NDE's testifying to these 'higher dimensional attributes' that are witnessed in Special Relativity. Specifically, we have testimony for both the 'eternal' attribute and the 'tunnel' attribute. Here is testimony from Near Dearth Experiencers experiencing the 'eternal' attribute of special relativity:
‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ - Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ - John Star – NDE Experiencer ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
And here is testimony from Near Dearth Experiencers experiencing the 'tunnel' attribute of special relativity:
“Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” - Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://vimeo.com/79072924 Life After Life – Raymond Moody – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg
bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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as to: "Why is it too much to ask for someone to come back with non-general knowledge that they could not have possibly had otherwise after an NDE?" They have! See Mickey Robinson's testimony. Why is it too much too ask you guys to investigate a little before you draw such sweeping conclusions.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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Why is it too much to ask for someone to come back with non-general knowledge that they could not have possibly had otherwise after an NDE?ChristopherH_{March 13, 2015
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F/N: Looked at the early exchanges a little while ago, to see DNA_J utterly misconstruing my comment on wanting to know if the claim regarding Hawking had primary source evidence: video or transcript; the question mark in the OP is also relevant context. That misreading speaks to a serious attitude problem of suspicion and contempt towards design thinkers that needs to be noted and addressed. KFkairosfocus_{March 13, 2015
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keith s Why don't you ask Vicky Noratuk that question? Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) – Pim von Lommel – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKyQJDZuMHE Or perhaps you can ask Dr. Pim von Lommel that question? The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyUsPgIuQ0 A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm Dr Pim Van Lommel's scientific studies on near-death experiences and consciousness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8scc2YbXUkbornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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#67 A good point. Wallstreeter43, try curing blindness by telling blind people to see directly "with their minds".Piotr_{March 13, 2015
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wallstreeter43, If the immaterial soul can see and hear without eyes and ears while outside of the body, then why do we need eyes and ears to see and hear while we are embodied?keith s_{March 13, 2015
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Dna jock said ""Like News, I wouldn’t expect someone to come back from an NDE with next week`s lotto numbers, but I agree with CHartsil that it would be rather good evidence in their favor. There’s no inconsistency there. Your condescension is as misplaced as it is impressive. Personally, I would settle for an accurate description of the placard on the shelf. Unfortunately, out of the 330 cardiac arrest patients in AWARE who survived their hospital stay, only two had category 5 (auditory/visual awareness) memories and neither of these was in a room with placards. The point remains: until someone comes back with information that they could not possibly have arrived at through other means, there isn`t any evidence for a ‘spiritual’ explanation of NDEs, much as we all might wish it otherwise."" Just as I suspected DNA you play the same push the goalposts back that Chartsil used. I'm noticing the same delusional hyper skepticism being used here so maybe it's not something atheists do on purpose but it's definately not normal. The man was in no condition to get this information as the study shows , but of course you take the stance that either he was cheating or the hospital staff was cheating or lying but if you knew about the protocols taken you would know that this just wasn't realistic to believe . Also take the fact that he was in the none functional brain zone and it makes ur stance a very delusional one to take . And as I pointed out to Chartsil , I'm going to have to point out to you and that is psychic phenomenon is a different area than Nde's and this area of research is completely different and psychics and remote viewers can have these experiences without an nde and in fact psychic studies are being done without Nde's , so yoir assertion that psychic information can only be done through Nde's is not only ridiculous but it shows that your hyper skepticism is in fact abnormal. This is bordering on some type of mental problem. My bringing up Nde's and the aware study wasn't to try to convince people like u and Chartsil who have already made up your minds and mold the evidence to fit your predisposed worldview . It is for the open minded atheist ,agnostics and fence sitters. One such atheist I have already direct to this thread who is lurking and he even agrees that your degree of hyper skepticism is crazy. Ladies and gentlemen is like to thank DNA jock and Chartsil for their unbelievably ridiculous assertion . Thanks guys . You have helped my atheist friend more then you can imagine ;) Keep up the good work lolwallstreeter43_{March 13, 2015
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Here is a more technical refutation of Franklin's timeline by Woerlee Reply to Woerlee’s Rejoinder on the Pam Reynolds Case - Chris Carter (2012 or 2013) Excerpt: In summary, I agree with the assessment of this case by neuroscientist Mario Beauregard,, http://www.merkawah.nl/public_html/images/stories/ccvsgwrepr.pdfbornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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coherence not a strong suit for you is it? "if" I knew for a fact you were lying, rudeness or not, I would have no problem telling you take it how you want." English classes are on another website!bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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So your defense, bornagain, is that you "knew for a fact" that I was lying when I said that I wished NDEs were real. You really are a poster child. Keep digging that hole; I love it.DNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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DNA_Jock, as I said, if I knew for a fact you were lying, rudeness or not, I would have no problem telling you that you did. So take it how you want.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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Franklin, Here is the accurate timeline here: Near death, explained New science is shedding light on what really happens during out-of-body experiences -- with shocking results. Mario Beauregard - 2012 Pam was brought into the operating room at 7:15 a.m., she was given general anesthesia, and she quickly lost conscious awareness. At this point, Spetzler and his team of more than 20 physicians, nurses, and technicians went to work. They lubricated Pam’s eyes to prevent drying, and taped them shut. They attached EEG electrodes to monitor the electrical activity of her cerebral cortex. They inserted small, molded speakers into her ears and secured them with gauze and tape. The speakers would emit repeated 100-decibel clicks—approximately the noise produced by a speeding express train—eliminating outside sounds and measuring the activity of her brainstem. At 8:40 a.m., the tray of surgical instruments was uncovered, and Robert Spetzler began cutting through Pam’s skull with a special surgical saw that produced a noise similar to a dental drill. At this moment, Pam later said, she felt herself “pop” out of her body and hover above it, watching as doctors worked on her body. Although she no longer had use of her eyes and ears, she described her observations in terms of her senses and perceptions. “I thought the way they had my head shaved was very peculiar,” she said. “I expected them to take all of the hair, but they did not.” She also described the Midas Rex bone saw (“The saw thing that I hated the sound of looked like an electric toothbrush and it had a dent in it … ”) and the dental-drill sound it made with considerable accuracy. Meanwhile, Spetzler was removing the outermost membrane of Pamela’s brain, cutting it open with scissors. At about the same time, a female cardiac surgeon was attempting to locate the femoral artery in Pam’s right groin. Remarkably, Pam later claimed to remember a female voice saying, “We have a problem. Her arteries are too small.” And then a male voice: “Try the other side.” Medical records confirm this conversation, yet Pam could not have heard them. The cardiac surgeon was right—Pam’s blood vessels were indeed too small to accept the abundant blood flow requested by the cardiopulmonary bypass machine, so at 10:50 a.m., a tube was inserted into Pam’s left femoral artery and connected to the cardiopulmonary bypass machine. The warm blood circulated from the artery into the cylinders of the bypass machine, where it was cooled down before being returned to her body. Her body temperature began to fall, and at 11:05 a.m. Pam’s heart stopped. Her EEG brain waves flattened into total silence. A few minutes later, her brain stem became totally unresponsive, and her body temperature fell to a sepulchral 60 degrees Fahrenheit. At 11:25 a.m., the team tilted up the head of the operating table, turned off the bypass machine, and drained the blood from her body. Pamela Reynolds was clinically dead. At this point, Pam’s out-of-body adventure transformed into a near-death experience (NDE): She recalls floating out of the operating room and traveling down a tunnel with a light. She saw deceased relatives and friends, including her long-dead grandmother, waiting at the end of this tunnel. She entered the presence of a brilliant, wonderfully warm and loving light, and sensed that her soul was part of God and that everything in existence was created from the light (the breathing of God). But this extraordinary experience ended abruptly, as Reynolds’s deceased uncle led her back to her body—a feeling she described as “plunging into a pool of ice.” Meanwhile, in the operating room, the surgery had come to an end. When all the blood had drained from Pam’s brain, the aneurysm simply collapsed and Spetzler clipped it off. Soon, the bypass machine was turned on and warm blood was pumped back into her body. As her body temperature started to increase, her brainsteam began to respond to the clicking speakers in her ears and the EEG recorded electrical activity in the cortex. The bypass machine was turned off at 12:32 p.m. Pam’s life had been restored, and she was taken to the recovery room in stable condition at 2:10 p.m. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/ Moreover, your boy Woerlee is shown to be grasping for straws here on another NDE: Near-Death Experience Skeptics Running Out of Excuses As to her amazing near-death experience during which she left her body and was able to look down on medical stuff during their frantic attempt to revive her, Woerlee offered this explanation, “…she hears the conversations. She feels the sensations. And she also is a woman who also has seen films and she knows how these things go. She hears the conversations, why? Because she is awake. That does not surprise me.” Dr. Woerlee’s claims contradict the accounts of medical staff on the scene. They indicated she was clinically dead, “what we call sheet-faced”, and under heavy anesthesia making it medically impossible for her to have a consciousness memory of the experience. http://www.skeptiko.com/near-death-experience-skeptics-running-out-of-excuses/ In other words, Woerlee is just another typical atheist who refuses to believe anything that contradicts his worldview, and will 'explain away' any evidence to the contrary.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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So if I hold that you may personally believe that you are being fair, but I personally don’t think you are being fair, then that means that I am accusing you of lying in your book?
No, it does not. If, however, I state that I wish NDEs were real, and you reply "I don’t buy your ‘wish’ for a moment", THAT is an accusation of lying. Who is and who is not being fair in evaluating the evidence is a separate issue, one on which we obviously do not agree. That's fine. It is the accusation of lying that is rude. Sad that you cannot see the difference. "Telling", even.DNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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So if I hold that you may personally believe that you are being fair, but I personally don't think you are being fair, then that means that I am accusing you of lying in your book? For your information DNA_Jock, I would have to actually accuse you of knowingly stating a falsehood in order for it to be true that I accused you of lying. ,,, Which, by the way, I would have no problem doing if I knew for a fact that you were doing as such (as I do with Nick Matzke). Right now the worse I can hold against you is that you are being personally dishonest with yourself in evaluating the evidence. And I think that point is more than obvious for the unbiased reader.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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BA77
Franklin, as the surgeon in the video I cited testified, what she ‘saw’ in the operating room simply was not ‘available’ for her to see. I suggest you check more carefully before throwing whatever you can think of on the wall to see what sticks::
You are not following the evidence where it leads, BA77. There is a well documented timeline for her case and it all supports insufficient anesthesia. http://neardth.com/pam-reynolds-near-death-experience.php you may feel free to debunk each step in the timeline if you wish but the case is clear that what this case constitutes and it is not NDE.franklin_{March 13, 2015
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So your argument is that she knew what an OR looked like and your only explanation is magic?ChristopherH_{March 13, 2015
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DNA_Jock, I have no doubt that you might believe you are being fair. I said that I don’t buy your ‘wish’ for a moment, and made my case as to why I think you are not being fair to the evidence.
Accusation of lying highlighted.
I’ll leave it to the unbiased reader to decide who has made his case with the empirical evidence and who has not.
Good luck finding one hereabouts. LMAODNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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DNA_Jock, I have no doubt that you might believe you are being fair. I said that I don't buy your 'wish' for a moment, and made my case as to why I think you are not being fair to the evidence. I'll leave it to the unbiased reader to decide who has made his case with the empirical evidence and who has not.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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Franklin, as the surgeon in the video I cited testified, what she 'saw' in the operating room simply was not 'available' for her to see. I suggest you check more carefully before throwing whatever you can think of on the wall to see what sticks:: Her testimony is truly extraordinary People Have Near-Death Experiences While Brain Dead http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.htmlbornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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bornagain, Thank you again for your honesty, in particular your frankness in accusing me of lying. Your extreme confirmation bias is driving you to new depths. This place is a wonderful showcase. I am reminded of the joke about the cop who pulled over the car with the chi-rho bumper sticker because the driver was cutting off other drivers and flipping them the bird. "I'm sorry Ma`am. I thought the car must be stolen."DNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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BA77
The extremely ‘monitored’ NDE of Pam Reynolds – video
Pam Reynold's experience is a clear cut case of insufficient anesthesia.franklin_{March 13, 2015
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How Strong is the Quantum Evidence for a Transcendent Soul? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yHsXAzI4Tw2xOW2lpsUE4os70Ot22eXBOZ6qauoJfZQ/editbornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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Well DNA_Jock, I don't buy your 'wish' for a minute. I pay attention to facts. The facts are that your very own standard for believing NDE's, i.e. bringing back 'information' that could not have been known beforehand, has been meet time and again. Besides Parnia's testimony, here are three more 'very credible' accounts that meet your threshold:
The extremely ‘monitored’ NDE of Pam Reynolds – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k “I think death is an illusion. I think death is a really nasty, bad lie. I don’t see any truth in the word death at all” – Pam Reynolds Lowery (1956 – May 22, 2010) The following is on par with Pam Reynolds Near Death Experience. In the following video, Dr. Lloyd Rudy, a pioneer of cardiac surgery, tells stories of two patients who came back to life after being declared dead, and what they told him about what they saw when they were supposedly ‘dead’. Famous Cardiac Surgeon’s Stories of Near Death Experiences in Surgery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1oDuvQR08 Michaela’s Amazing NEAR death experience – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTcHWz6UMZ8
Moreover, it is not as if NDEs are physically impossible from a physics standpoint and you are arguing from some limitation in physics that would preclude NDEs from being possible. In fact, that the soul is separable from the temporal body is a question that is no longer confined to philosophical discussion but is a position that has empirical support from the physics of the body https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZJUjfAQUP8IxnZOS1wLCIH9XSR642GCdPZlL5wWrOzY/edit As well, Special Relativity itself offers support for the validity of NDEs Please note, at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, (Of note: This following video was made by two Australian University Physics Professors with a supercomputer.).
Seeing Relativity – Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4
As well there is evidence that time comes to a complete stop at the speed of light
“I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005 Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video https://vimeo.com/93101738 “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
And yet, in unexpected conjunction with Relativity, People who have NDE's commonly report going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension and also report entering a 'timeless eternity':
"Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffrey Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://vimeo.com/79072924 Life After Life – Raymond Moody – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg 'Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything - past, present, future - exists simultaneously.' - Kimberly Clark Sharp - NDE Experiencer 'There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.' - John Star - NDE Experiencer ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
Thus, DNA_Jock, you may claim that you are not overly skeptical of NDEs and that you 'wish' NDEs were real, but I simply do not buy it. Your very own threshold of 'information from beyond' has been met, and even physical reality itself reveals, through Special Relativity, that NDEs are concordant with reality. From a scientific standpoint, you simply have no excuse for being so skeptical no matter how much you claim that you 'wish' the accounts were credible.bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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111bornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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bornagain, Thank you for your honesty. I wanted to give you another opportunity to display your confirmation bias, and you came through for me. In spades. If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that I have twice on this thread (in comments that you have replied to) stated that I wish NDEs were real. I'll forgive you for your erroneous assumption that I am an atheist. That hasn't come up on this thread. Unlike your confirmation bias.DNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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DNA_Jock, I think your a-priori commitment to materialism/naturalism blinds 'you', (if there were really a 'you' in materialism to begin with), to any evidence for NDEs, or for intelligent design in general for that matter. I suggest reading Nancy Pearcey's article to see how selective atheists are in their skepticism: Why Evolutionary Theory Cannot Survive Itself - Nancy Pearcey - March 8, 2015 Excerpt: Steven Pinker writes, "Our brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes the truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not." The upshot is that survival is no guarantee of truth. If survival is the only standard, we can never know which ideas are true and which are adaptive but false. To make the dilemma even more puzzling, evolutionists tell us that natural selection has produced all sorts of false concepts in the human mind. Many evolutionary materialists maintain that free will is an illusion, consciousness is an illusion, even our sense of self is an illusion -- and that all these false ideas were selected for their survival value. So how can we know whether the theory of evolution itself is one of those false ideas? The theory undercuts itself.,,, Of course, the atheist pursuing his research has no choice but to rely on rationality, just as everyone else does. The point is that he has no philosophical basis for doing so. Only those who affirm a rational Creator have a basis for trusting human rationality. The reason so few atheists and materialists seem to recognize the problem is that, like Darwin, they apply their skepticism selectively. They apply it to undercut only ideas they reject, especially ideas about God. They make a tacit exception for their own worldview commitments. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/why_evolutionar094171.htmlbornagain77_{March 13, 2015
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borngain77, a quick question. What do you think drives my skepticism of NDE accounts?DNA_Jock_{March 13, 2015
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