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Stephen Hawking was Sometimes Embarrassingly Stupid

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Yes, yes, I grant that he was brilliant in his field of expertise, theoretical physics.  But as was recently noted in these pages, when he ventured outside of his bailiwick, he said some really boned-headed things.  Consider just one example from his book The Grand Design

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.”

In one sentence Hawking committed two egregious logical blunders.  First, he committed the error of reification (ascribing concrete properties to abstract concepts).  The law of gravity does not do anything.  Like all laws of science, it is a mathematical model of observed regularities.  Why the regularities scientists observe should be such as they are and how those regularities came to be in the first place is beyond the realm of science – and thus not within Hawking’s area of expertise. 

Second, he committed the error of non sequitur.  “Nothing,” in the sense that is under examination, means “absolute non-being.”  Such a state has no properties.  When it obtains, it means there is absolutely nothing.  Now look at Hawking’s statement.  He said, essentially, “because we have something (the law of gravity), the universe can create itself from nothing.”  Well sure, if by “nothing” one means “something” then that is at least possibly true (whether it is true is another question).  But that is not what “nothing” means, as any reasonably bright second grader knows. 

This is why we should be very careful when we employ the argument from authority.  “X said thus and so” can be a powerful argument if X is the world’s foremost authority on the subject.  Certainly it is never absolutely persuasive because in the past the majority of scientists (even the smartest among them) have been wrong about basic things.  Until well into the twentieth century most cosmologists subscribed to the theory of the luminiferous aether.  That theory turned out to be bunk.  Still, when an expert speaks within the area of his expertise, his views are worth considering.  But when an expert speaks outside his area of expertise, he is just another layman, and his pronouncements do not deserve greater weight than any other layman. 

Another example:  Albert Einstein was in favor of socialism.  The man who was widely considered one of the smartest scientists in history was utterly clueless in the realm of economics.

When it comes to the argument from authority, our best bet is to follow Sergeant Esterhaus’s advice.  “Let’s be careful out there.” ·

Comments
Asauber @45, Yes, exactly. Their spirituality was a Nazi blend of mysticism, honor, colorful ceremonies, solemn oaths, German mythology, strong willpower, and a sort of racial manifest destiny based on patriotism and Darwinian evolution. "God" was a cultural element brought into their beliefs but had no grounding in Judeo-Christian scriptures or values. -QQuerius
April 13, 2021
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Bob O'H @43,
Fair enough. I reacted because the quote being discussed here (“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.”) is flat-out cosmology. It may sounds nuts, but that’s quantum physics for you.
The problems is that there's no quantum theory of gravity. Even theoretical physicists took issue with Hawkings' pronouncement. Since we really don't understand gravity, ascribing the origin of the universe to gravity becomes a statement of faith that's qualitatively no different than ascribing it to God . . . or dark energy . . . or the Multiverse. -QQuerius
April 13, 2021
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Silver Asiatic @ 40-42, Nicely articulated in a target rich environment. ; -) As to the exact nature of the Son of God, I purposely limit my opinions to the plain reading of the scriptures such as Hebrews 1. I'd rather be simple and say "I don't know" for lack of understanding than be doctrinaire and wrong. There are also things that we probably aren't capable of understanding, especially when it comes to things such as a timeless being in a temporal world. I'd also say that God created humans in his own image with a conscious connection to a larger spiritual world with a measure of free will. That's why we pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." -QQuerius
April 13, 2021
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Viola Lee @39, Yes, I agree with this as well. And quoting an MLB star on some pronouncement on the origin of life isn't very compelling. -QQuerius
April 13, 2021
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VL @34,
The truth of the matter is that almost everyone here is talking about things that we don’t have any particular expertise in. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to learn, express ourselves, and share our thoughts, but it does mean that perhaps we should stay humble.
Agreed. But I’d also add that unsupported assertions add no value to the discussion. If John Doe writes, “You’re full of baloney. Darwinism has been proven multiple times,” my reaction is that a Mr. John Doe of East Cupcake, Minnesota has an opinion that differs from mine. So what? If John Doe can at least produce reasons why he came to that conclusion, we can have a discussion. If John Doe can produce some supporting discoveries that can be interpreted to prove Darwinism, we can have an interesting discussion. -QQuerius
April 13, 2021
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From what I understand, the Nazis created their spirituality in their own image, so as to facilitate their worldly ambitions. Very common approach for those with worldly ambitions. Andrewasauber
April 13, 2021
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@querius Your answer is a stupid strawman. Nazi's accept the human spirit and soul, the same way that compatibilists accept free will. By redefining it to make it consistent wirh the logic of materialism / fact.mohammadnursyamsu
April 13, 2021
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Querius @ 32 -
It was the assertions that Haw[k]ing took *outside* his field of expertise that I’m criticizing.
Fair enough. I reacted because the quote being discussed here (“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.”) is flat-out cosmology. It may sounds nuts, but that's quantum physics for you.Bob O'H
April 13, 2021
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Seversky
Furthermore, the being nailed to the cross was not human. As the Son of God, Jesus may have worn a human body – a bit like the “Edgar suit” from Men In Black – but that was all that could be killed.
That's the heresy of Docetism - back to the 2nd century. Not exactly a new (or correct) idea. Refuted by St. Ignatius of Antioch along with others. The Christian view is the hypostatic union. You can invent your own religious beliefs, certainly, but not many are going to care or even understand why you're thinking that way.Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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Seversky
In Christian belief God is the all-knowing, all-powerful Creator. Nothing happens but by His will. If we are able to behave in ways that displease Him then that is how He created us to behave.
It's not like evolution where people, supposedly, are determined by physical forces to do whatever they do. Nobody will be successful with a claim that "God forced me to do it". We speak of God's "permissive will". He allows things to occur, balanced within the justice of rewards and punishment, as well as "the holy exchange" given by victim souls who offer their sufferings for the benefit of others, taking on pains to bring mercy and forgiveness to those who otherwise would be lost in evil. In that "divine economy" - pain and self-sacrifice are the currency that pay for unjust pleasures (sin). A survivor of the bombings of Nagasaki saw the event that way. The nuclear bomb fell almost directly on a predominantly Christian city in Japan (a rare thing) on a huge Catholic cathedral, incinerating thousands. The survivor saw this as holy souls, giving their lives and pain as victims in a holocaust to pay for the sins of the war and bring it to an end. They are seen as martyrs in that light. Abraham Lincoln saw the Civil War in a similar way - the blood of the dead paid for the guilt of the sin of slavery. That kind of understanding of suffering is common view within that Christian faith, since Jesus' life was the exemplar of the same.Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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Seversky
For Biblical prescriptions of the death penalty for homosexuality, try Leviticus 20:13, for adultery, try Leviticus 20:10 and for rebellious or disrespectful children, try Leviticus 20:9. But I’m sure you know these.
Please note the word in asterisks in Querius' reply to you. He gave a theological explanation following regarding "to fulfill".Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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re 37. I think the difference to consider is whether someone is somehow asserting, either implicitly or explicitly, that their expertise in one field gives them some special credence in some other, unrelated field. For instance, a movie star has just as much right as anyone else to have a political opinion, and the same obligations to try to support their opinion, but they don't have the right to think that just because they are a famous movie star that in itself adds extra weight to their political opinion. I also agree that a theoretical physicist has no special claim to the validity of a personal philosophy or whether to believe in God. However, to tie to things together, you write, "But it would be nice if the comment came with some support once in a while such as a quote or some other evidence." I'm not sure that just a quote in itself adds to an argument if the quote adds nothing substantially new to the discussion, and especially of the material quoted falls prey to the same problem: a pronouncement by someone who doesn't have expertise in the subject. One can almost always find others who agree with oneself, but stacking up quote after quote by people all coming from the same viewpoint doesn't accumulate more weight to an argument.Viola Lee
April 12, 2021
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Querius/19
Oh really? Where in the Bible does it say that *Christians* are “bound to put homosexuals, adulterers and even rebellious children to death”? Torah was given to Moses as a mirror to demonstrate that no one is a “good person” and everyone deserves death, but Christ came to fulfill Torah with his own excruciating death in full payment for those who repent and ask for His forgiveness! God put on mortality and was tortured to death for you, so you could *avoid* being judged and found guilty.
For Biblical prescriptions of the death penalty for homosexuality, try Leviticus 20:13, for adultery, try Leviticus 20:10 and for rebellious or disrespectful children, try Leviticus 20:9. But I'm sure you know these. As for the other claims, I know I shouldn't be but I'm always surprised at how Christians can believe in such claims without being aware of their absurdity. In Christian belief God is the all-knowing, all-powerful Creator. Nothing happens but by His will. If we are able to behave in ways that displease Him then that is how He created us to behave. Being all-knowing, He would have known exactly how we would behave. Moreover, He had the power and knowledge to make us otherwise so, if we offend Him - which makes no sense given His foreknowledge of how we would behave - He has only Himself to blame. So in what universe is it just to punish us in perpetuity for being what He designed us to be? If He has the power to change us with a Jedi-like wave of the hand into that which pleases him, why doesn't he do it and save everyone a whole lot of suffering? Furthermore, the being nailed to the cross was not human. As the Son of God, Jesus may have worn a human body - a bit like the "Edgar suit" from Men In Black - but that was all that could be killed. Christ the Son, like God the father, is held to be immortal. We no more have the power to kill him than we do to destroy this Universe. So the Crucifixion was at best a form of street theater. There wasn't really any other point to the whole exercise.Seversky
April 12, 2021
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Thanks, Silver Asiatic. I didn't realize Bob O'H was only joking. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Viola Lee, Yeah, I agree that one shouldn't have to hold a relevant PhD to comment on a subject, but it would be nice if the comment came with some support once in a while such as a quote or some other evidence. Also, there's something wrong when a celebrity, scientist, professor, or someone else with credentials in one field relies on their credibility in one field to make pronouncements, judgments, or endorsements in another. Unfortunately, this is done all the time. I mean, what relevance is there when some famous MLB player recommends a brand of deodorant or a movie star claims a solution to a political issue? Or a theoretical physicist has a personal philosophy or chooses not to believe in God . . . -QQuerius
April 12, 2021
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Querius
As such, his opinions in these areas are not particularly noteworthy.
The linked article giving his religious thoughts is sad. That's the depth he was able to achieve over a lifetime? Yes, I wouldn't call him an expert in theological understanding.Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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Querius
Hope that makes it clear what I was trying to say.
I think you were taking Bob too seriously. To me, it sounded like he is trying to be clever. We point to Hawking's lame philosophy and Bob says that he thinks his cosmology is very good. In other words, there's no need for philosophy - physics answers everything. That's classic scientism. I've tried to reason with Bob about this in the past (maybe he has changed?) and he has no interest in philosophy or theology. This explains why he cannot see Hawking's errors and instead assigns all of his ideas to physical sciences. This is as if physics can tell us how to get something from nothing (which Mr. Krauss actually tried to claim in an embarrassing book of a similar title). I'll predict that Bob will skip over that philosophical error entirely.Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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I don't know too much about Hawking, but I agree with Querius that there is not a surefire connection between someone's scientific expertise and their thoughts on philosophy, particularly metaphysics, and theology. Reciprocally, the same holds true of people from other fields (technology, law, etc.) concerning their thoughts about both philosophy and science. The truth of the matter is that almost everyone here is talking about things that we don't have any particular expertise in. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to learn, express ourselves, and share our thoughts, but it does mean that perhaps we should stay humble.Viola Lee
April 12, 2021
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Mohammadnursyamu @31, When you make your assertions about the beliefs of Nazis and their leader, please consider supporting your assertions. Where do you find that Nazis asserted they weren't materialists? Do you have a reference? For example, here's a quote from the book, “Until the Final Hour” (subtitled “Hitler’s Last Secretary”), which is mainly based on the personal stories written by Traudl Junge soon after the end of WW2.
Sometimes we also had interesting discussions about the church and the development of the human race. Perhaps it’s going too far to call them discussions, because he [Hitler] would begin explaining his ideas when some question or remark from one of us had set them off, and we just listened. He was not a member of any church, and thought the Christian religions were outdated, hypocritical institutions that lured people into them. The laws of nature were his religion. He could reconcile his dogma of violence better with nature than with the Christian doctrine of loving your neighbor and your enemy. ‘Science isn’t yet clear about the origins of humanity,’ he once said. ‘We are probably the highest stage of development of some mammal which developed from reptiles and moved on to human beings, perhaps by way of the apes. We are a part of creation and children of nature, and the same laws apply to us as to all living creatures. And in nature the law of the struggle for survival has reigned from the first. Everything incapable of life, everything weak is eliminated. Only mankind and above all the church have made it their aim to keep alive the weak, those unfit to live, and people of an inferior kind.
So what should one conclude about Hitler's beliefs from the above account? -QQuerius
April 12, 2021
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Bob O'H @24,
I thought Hawking knew quite a bit about cosmology.
It was the assertions that Hawing took *outside* his field of expertise that I'm criticizing. Some of his popular books ventured his position on philosophy and theology based on his fame as a theoretical physicist and theoretical cosmologist. As such, his opinions in these areas are not particularly noteworthy. For example, consider his final book, published posthumously: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/10/17/stephen-hawking-his-beliefs-god-and-heaven/1668456002/ Hope that makes it clear what I was trying to say. -QQuerius
April 12, 2021
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The nazi's asserted they were not materialists. They generally asserted belief in the human spirit, the human soul, and also God. But, they asserted that the human spirit, the human soul, could be identified as a matter of biological fact. And that was the main basis of nazism, that personal character of people could be identified as scientific fact. So it doesn't matter if someone says they are not a materialist. One has to be very precise about the logic involved. And the only correct logic is the creationist conceptual scheme. That personal character is on the side of what makes a choice, and therefore personal character can only be identified with a chosen opinion. So the identification of someone's character is a subjective judgement. We can be charitable, mean, in making judgement on what someone's personal character is. It is not a matter of cold hard fact.mohammadnursyamsu
April 12, 2021
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re 26, to ET. No, I don't, although there are different levels of understanding that can be meant by that question. I certainly don't know how or why we have the universe we do, or why its nature is such that the things in the world, including life, have been able to develop in it. I don't think anyone does.Viola Lee
April 12, 2021
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Good distinction, SA. What I mean is that a strictly reductionist standpoint about the material world is flawed, which was Sev's point. I was not meaning to imply that everything can be reduced to things in the material world. Even in respect to just the material aspects of the world, saying that it is "nothing but" quantum events, for instance, as if that somehow negates the existence and value of things built from those quantum events, is wrongViola Lee
April 12, 2021
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Good distinction, SA. What I mean is that a strictly reductionist standpoint about the material world is flawed, which was Sev's point. I was not meaning to imply that everything can be reduced to things in the material world. Even in respect to just the material aspects of the world, saying that it is "nothing but" quantum events, for instance, as if that somehow negates the existence and value of things built from those quantum events, is wrongViola Lee
April 12, 2021
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VL
Also, SA, I’ll point out again that I’m not a materialist, as my aside “irrespective of whatever the nature and function of consciousness is,” was supposed to refer to. I accept that “other reasoning, meaning, values, intentionality, freedom, rationality, moral conscience, self-awareness, aspiration, spirituality …” are aspects of ourselves that flow, somehow from our consciousness.
Yes, I understand and I was pointing to the notion that you would like to keep some kind of option open and available. But that contradicts your statement:
Yes, on the one hand a reductionistic perspective is true.
If there is "something more" and immaterial entities do exist (that's what it means to be a non-materialist) - then the reductionist perspective is not true. I'm not just picking on you for this. I think it's a common viewpoint where people want to hold a totally materialist view (reductionism is true) but they realize that it does not work in reality. I think the challenge is, for them, having to affirm that there are non-material entities that cannot be reduced to physicalism. It's really a matter of affirming that "the reductionist perspective is false". But for many (I'm not speaking of your case, I don't know), that separates them from a certain friendship or membership among atheist materialists and puts them in a less defined category (perceived to be more vulnerable, but is actually more rational).Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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OK, so you say that you are not a materialist. Do you have any thoughts on how we came into existence? Please share.ET
April 12, 2021
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Also, SA, I'll point out again that I'm not a materialist, as my aside "irrespective of whatever the nature and function of consciousness is," was supposed to refer to. I accept that "other reasoning, meaning, values, intentionality, freedom, rationality, moral conscience, self-awareness, aspiration, spirituality …" are aspects of ourselves that flow, somehow from our consciousness. But my aside was meant to point out that no matter what the nature of our consciousness and the things we associate with that (reason, free will, etc.), we are also a material, biological body that cannot be dismissed as "nothing but" quantum events, which is the bottom of our understanding these days from a reductionistic viewpoint.Viola Lee
April 12, 2021
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Querius @ 18 -
However, none of the participants here are relying on their fame in one area to make assertions in areas in which they had no expertise, such as Hawking did.
Eh? I thought Hawking knew quite a bit about cosmology.Bob O'H
April 12, 2021
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Hmmm, SA. I notice that you didn't quote or respond to the rest of the post that you quoted from, nor what my comment was in response to. Here's what Sev said that I responded to:
Yes, at different levels of abstraction we can be described as bags of skin full of biomolecules or meat robots or even chemical scum but those are far from all we are. That’s like describing the Mona Lisa as some dabs of paint on a piece of canvas. I doubt there’s anybody who really thinks that’s all there is to us.
And I wrote,
Human beings, irrespective of whatever the nature and function of consciousness is, are a highly organized, integrated whole biological organism that does all sorts of things at the biochemical level to keep us alive and going about our daily business. There is no “nothing but” about it.
Both of us were objecting to a strictly reductionistic way of looking at the world.Viola Lee
April 12, 2021
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VL
Yes, on the one hand a reductionistic perspective is true. The physical world is nothing but this huge number of quantum events going on.
That's the "nothing but" that we're talking about. Any other reasoning, meaning, values, intentionality, freedom, rationality, moral conscience, self-awareness, aspiration, spirituality ... are all smuggled into the "nothing but" and at best, are illusory. Alex Rosenberg explains all of it and urges fellow atheists to proclaim the "nothing but" because to do otherwise is to build upon illusions (and to be somewhat dishonest about what atheism really is). Eliminative materialism - seeks (rightly) to eliminate all that is not reducible to physical categories.Silver Asiatic
April 12, 2021
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seversky is still confused as there isn't any scientific theory of evolution.
The theory of evolution deals with how living things might have diversified and flourished after life had appeared on Earth. It relies on naturalistic and materialistic resources for the explanations offered but it says nothing about the moral ‘worth’ of human beings specifically.
There isn't any known naturalistic an materialistic mechanism capable of producing the diversity of life. The concept is untestable and therefore it is not scientific.ET
April 12, 2021
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