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Straight talk from Searle on free will

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John Searle, who is currently the Slusser Professor of Philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley, is one of the world’s most highly respected philosophers. In a recent nine-minute interview with Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Searle succinctly defined the problem of free will, in laypersons’ language. Although Searle finds it difficult (as a materialist) to see how human beings could possibly possess free will, he also realizes that it’s impossible for us not to believe that we have it. If it is an illusion, then it’s one we can never hope to escape from. At the same time, Searle is withering in his criticism of “compatibilist” philosophers, who assert that even if our actions are fully determined, we can still believe in a kind of free will.

Intriguingly, Searle argues during the interview that there has to be an evolutionary basis for free will. After all, he declares, if free will is an illusion, and our actions are causally determined by neurophysiological processes over which we have no conscious control, then how do we explain the suite of behavior which we have evolved, not only for rational decision-making, but also for teaching our children how to make rational decisions? It would seem strange, says Searle, for evolution to make such a huge investment, for something which served absolutely no purpose.

Here are some of the highlights from Searle’s interview (bolding is mine – VJT):

John Searle: The reason that we have a special problem about free will – and this is typical of a lot of philosophical problems – is that we have inconsistent views, each of which is supported by apparently what are overwhelming reasons. The reason that we have for believing in free will is that we experience it every day. We have the experience that the decisions were not themselves forced by antecedently sufficient causal conditions, … where the causes are sufficient to produce the effect. But on the other side, you’ve got an overwhelming amount of evidence that everything that happens has a causal explanation in terms of causally sufficient conditions…. And we don’t see any reason to suppose that’s not generally true. As far as we know, human behavior is part of the natural world, and it looks like it ought to be explained in terms of causally sufficient conditions. But if that’s true, that everything has causally sufficient conditions, that we’re completely at the mercy of causal forces, then free will is an illusion.

John Searle: In the case of other illusions, you can live your life in the knowledge that it is just an illusion. There are certain standard optical illusions, and you live your life on the assumption that the two lines are the same length, even though they look different lengths, in that Muller-lyer illusion. But when it comes to free will, you can’t live your life on the assumption of determinism. You go into the restaurant, and the waiter says: “Do you want the veal or the steak?”, you can’t say: “I’m a determinist. Que sera, sera. I’ll just wait and see what happens,” because – and this is the point – if you do that, if you refuse to exercise free will, that refusal is intelligible to you only as an exercise of free will. Now Kant pointed this out. We can’t shake off the conviction of free will. This doesn’t show that it’s true: it could be completely false. It could be a massive illusion. If so, [it’s] the biggest illusion that evolutionary biology ever played on us, because we live our life on the assumption of that freedom. We can’t get out of that assumption – and yet, for all we know, it might be false. We might be completely determined.

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: And that would make that evolutionary product an incredible waste, or an effort being done to create that, when it would be irrelevant.

John Searle: Totally irrelevant. Yes. Now, the only thing that inclines me to think, “Well, maybe there is some evolutionary basis for free will,” is that we don’t know of any other part of evolutionary biology where you have such an expensive phenotype as conscious, rational decision-making. We devote an enormous amount of resources to teach our children how to do it, and just in crude biology, an awful lot of blood has to go to the brain, in order to sustain this mechanism, and to be told, “Well, it doesn’t have any evolutionary function; it’s just a massive illusion, it doesn’t do anything for you” – that’s a highly compelling argument that it’s not so. But it certainly would make it something unusual, as evolutionary biology goes. We would have this expensive mechanism for conscious, rational decision-making, and it’s all useless; it’s all epiphenomenal.

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: So we have these two pillars of information – each one self-consistent, each one based on enormous amounts of information – the physical world, every event has a cause – and our sense of volitional free will, our perception of free will, and you have the evolutionary cost – and they are absolutely incompatible.

John Searle: Yes. Not only are they incompatible, but it’s hard to see how we could give up on either of them. [You] see, normally when you get two incompatible things like this, you just give up on one. Now I don’t see how we can give up on either of these. There are various possibilities that I can canvass.

John Searle: Now, I should tell you most philosophers think this problem has been solved. They’ve been solved by something called compatibilism which says, “Well, really, if you understand what these words mean, you’ll see that free will and determinism are really compatible. To say that you have freedom is to say that you’re determined by certain sorts of causes – such as your desires – instead of somebody putting a gun at your head. I just think that’s a cop-out. Compatibilism evades the problem. The problem can be stated without using these words. The problem is: is it the case that for every decision that I make that the antecedent causes of that decision were sufficient to determine that very decision?

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: Because if they are…

John Searle: We have no free will.

Robert Lawrence Kuhn: And it’s an illusion?

John Searle: That’s right.

John Searle: There is an “experience gap.” We do have an “experience gap” every day. You decide: who am I going to vote for in the next election? Now you don’t just sit back and wait to see something happen. You actually have to think it through and make up your mind. Now that’s what I’m calling the gap: the conscious experience that the reasons that you have for an action, though they are rationally the basis for that action, don’t typically compel that action. Yes, I did like this feature of that candidate, and I did like this other feature of that other candidate, but I voted for this guy. But I could have voted for that person, equally well. I wasn’t compelled or forced.

John Searle: Here is the puzzling feature: as far as our conscious experiences are concerned, it seems to me our conscious reason, at the level of the mental, is not causally sufficient to force the next [decision]… I mean, you can see that by contrasting the cases where it is – where you really are in a grip of an obsession – with the cases where it isn’t. But the tougher question is: what about at the level of neurobiology? If the neurobiological level is causally sufficient to determine your behavior, then the fact that you have the experience of freedom at the higher level is really irrelevant.

Readers can watch the interview here (h/t Professor Jerry Coyne):

(Closer to Truth has a larger series of videos on the subject of free will, which is available here.)

Searle takes causal determinism for granted in the foregoing discussion, but as physicists are well aware, determinism does not hold at the submicroscopic level, where quantum indeterminacy reigns supreme.

Could the phenomenon quantum indeterminacy rescue our belief in free will? The renowned astrophysicist Arthur Eddington (1882-1944) thought so, although he expressed himself more cautiously in his later years. Nowadays, quantum indeterminacy is often pooh-poohed as totally irrelevant to the problem of free will, on the grounds that if an action is random and undetermined, then it is no more of a free decision than a causally determined action would be.

However, this objection presupposes that proponents of free will are identifying a free choice with some quantum-level event. But if we define a free choice as a macroscopic event which is imposed upon a large number of submicroscopic quantum-level events, and if we reject the common reductionist assumption that causation is always “bottom-up,” then it is possible to describe how a higher-level macroscopic event could be non-random, without being causally determined. I have described in several previous posts (see here, here, here and here) how this could work:

…[I]t is easy to show that a non-deterministic system may be subject to specific constraints, while still remaining random. These constraints may be imposed externally, or alternatively, they may be imposed from above, as in top-down causation. To see how this might work, suppose that my brain performs the high-level act of making a choice, and that this act imposes a constraint on the quantum micro-states of tiny particles in my brain. This doesn’t violate quantum randomness, because a selection can be non-random at the macro level, but random at the micro level. The following two rows of digits will serve to illustrate my point.

1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1
0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1

The above two rows of digits were created by a random number generator. The digits in some of these columns add up to 0; some add up to 1; and some add up to 2.

Now suppose that I impose the non-random macro requirement: keep the columns whose sum equals 1, and discard the rest. I now have:

1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0

Each row is still random (at the micro level), but I have now imposed a non-random macro-level constraint on the system as a whole (at the macro level). That, I would suggest, what happens when I make a choice.

Top-down causation and free will

What I am proposing, in brief, is that top-down (macro–>micro) causation is real and fundamental (i.e. irreducible to lower-level acts). For if causation is always bottom-up (micro–>macro) and never top-down, or alternatively, if top-down causation is real, but only happens because it has already been determined by some preceding occurrence of bottom-up causation, then our actions are simply the product of our body chemistry – in which case they are not free, since they are determined by external circumstances which lie beyond our control. But if top-down causation is real and fundamental, then a person’s free choices, which are macroscopic events that occur in the brain at the highest level, can constrain events in the brain occurring at a lower, sub-microscopic level, and these constraints then can give rise to neuro-muscular movements, which occur in accordance with that person’s will. (For instance, in the case I discussed above, relating to rows of ones and zeroes, the requirement that the columns must add up to 1 might result in to the neuro-muscular act of raising my left arm, while the requirement that they add up to 2 might result in the act of raising my right arm.)

I’d now like to throw the discussion open to readers. Has Searle successfully refuted compatibilism? Can belief in libertarian, “contra-causal” free will survive, in an age of science? Could I have done otherwise than write this post? Finally, does evolution provide grounds for believing in some sort of free will, as Searle thinks?

Over to you.

Comments
Seversky said:
If your putative supernatural domain is home to some intelligent agency capable of “deliberately overrid[ing] naturally-occurring bottom-level physical processes, including random quantum fluctuations”, it too must be ordered if it is something other than random chaos. That means that it too must be contingent, bound by cause and effect relationships just as our universe is.
You present a false dichotomy, Seversky, between an ordered sequence of causation and "random chaos" as being the only two possible types of phenomena that can logically exist. First, logic dictates there must be an end, so to speak, to the sequences of causation, a first or fundamentally necessary cause - a final acausal cause which prevents infinite causal regression or insufficient cause. Second, you simply ignore the entire postulate of this thread - free will - as a third kind of phenomena, neither causally ordered or randomly chaotic, and simply assign it as a sub-category of the causally ordered and insist it must be that or random chaos. But, that's the whole point, Seversky - it is postulated as neither. Acausal deliberacy answers the logical problem of the causality issue, being neither orderly caused nor randomly chaotic in nature.
And that means that the same problem of free will must exist there. There may well be other domains of existence of which we are as yet unaware. They can’t be ruled out but I don’t see that they can help with free will either.
You don't see it because you refuse the premise of what free will is, and rather insist it must be other than what it is premised to be: acausal deliberacy.William J Murray
July 18, 2016
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vjtorley responded:
For my part, I would contend that there’s no need for the agent to be able to over-ride bottom-level physical processes; however, the agent must be able to constrain those processes, and prevent certain “undesirable” combinations from occurring.
I don't see how "constraining" and "overriding" such processes are essentially different concepts in this context. Also, we don't just prevent undesirable combinations, we actively generate new combinations to come up with new ideas and to find acceptable alternatives. If, say, our will is collapsing quantum potentials in our brain chemistry according to a deliberate supernatural intent, I'm not sure how saying we are "constraining" such quantum outcomes is any different than saying we are "overriding" a natural tendency for random quantum indeterminancy.William J Murray
July 18, 2016
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rvb8 @31 states "today humans have made slavery a sin" There are billions of people on this planet who live on slave wages. Also there are many who believe themselves to be free who are merely living under a repackaged slavery where the slave has the idea that he is free thus making a more content slave. What the Bible denotes as 'acceptable' slavery and acceptable standards of living would be a major boost in living standards for a significant percentage of the human population.DillyGill
July 18, 2016
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rvb8 @31 says "or any number of other evils atheists such as myself are responsible for, as we have no grasp on morality, because we don’t have a God to explain to us what is right and what is not right" The Christian position is not the atheists have no morality, I have never heard any Christian argue this. It is the common belief of Christians that our conscience is God given to all, as a gift from God, to help us navigate the world we find ourselves in. The ten spiritual principles (ten commandments if you prefer) are an extra tool for use because of how easy it is to sear the conscience and justify ones own position whilst perusing what one might think will bring safety, security and happiness. The Bible repeatably states that the problem with man is not that with out God he is hell bent on doing evil rather it states that he wants to do 'what is right in his own eyes' . The end result of this often (sometimes over many generations) ends in a place absent of the designers principles.DillyGill
July 18, 2016
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my goodness. you're a slow one, barry.evnfrdrcksn
July 17, 2016
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rvb8 ‘Could I have done otherwise than write this post?’ Ummm, No!, Dr Torley you could not. Your upbrining, your life experiences, your education (and your interpretation of that education, influenced by family, and those you are BOUND to hold dear), all determine that you could not." You must be insane. Only someone off their rocker would waste bandwith trying to convince others that they are in error when the other party is incapable of being persuaded because they cannot do otherwise but reject your entreaties. On the other hand you cannot do anything other than what you do and are yourself incapable of being swayed by any arguments presented that are contrary to your stated position. The question that must be asked is why do you waste your time to such a futile enterprise? Wait I know it's because you can do no other. Do you at least have the ability to ponder on the absurdity of all this? Vividvividbleau
July 17, 2016
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StephenB "It seems a waste of time to study the interaction of physical nature and the human brain for an answer to the problem of free will. The will is better understood as an immaterial (or as WJM says, “supernatural”) faculty of the soul that empowers an intelligent agent to be a causeless cause." Stephen I am having difficulty understanding a "causeless cause" Are you saying that there are causes that have no cause? Vividvividbleau
July 17, 2016
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My point about Scotland was not tautology, I was genuinely trying to show how the environment, a single conversation, a well argued point, completely unanticipated, can mould a life into a shape that the owner of that life did not choose, that was not planned. And I'm certainly not going to get into a poltical discussion; 'Libertarian free will'? Eh!? I would have thought adding the suffix phrase 'free will' to Libertarian is redundent. I have heard of Libertarian Socialism, and Libertarian Marxism, and Libertarian Republicanism, but your one is new to me. Thanks for the chat. I was not trying to impugn your good character.rvb8
July 17, 2016
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rvb8:
I don’t ‘not’ like the image of the baby torturers
Oh, so your only purpose was to take a gratuitous shot at me. Thanks for clearing that up.
Say you were born in another English speaking, Christian country . . . would Barry be the same Barry
Are you asking if I were a different person would I be a different person? Well, I suppose I would. I don't think that tautology helps your argument against free will. The different person I would be would certainly be influenced by environmental and genetic factors. No one denies that. The issue is whether he would have libertarian free will. And he would. Just like you have libertarian free will that you have exercised to come onto this site to try to get other people to use their libertarian free will to choose not to believe in libertarian free will.Barry Arrington
July 17, 2016
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I don't 'not' like the image of the baby torturers, it's effective in portraying evil, it's merely repetative and thus loses its sting, perhaps; child sex slavery, or related to this pedophilia, or income disparity, or any number of other evils atheists such as myself are responsible for, as we have no grasp on morality, because we don't have a God to explain to us what is right and what is not right. (My parents did this, if it was left to God I'm not sure if the results would have been as effective.) Although I do have to ask, was there any human morality pre-decalogue? (Oh, and the decalogue's morality leaves out that today humans have made slavery a sin, homosexuality is acceptable, wife beating a sin, disagreeing with your parents acceptable, genocide a big sin (God couldn't grasp this point?), lending money acceptable etc etc etc etc.) About my mind being set in childhood by idiot religious teachers; not quite. I have three older brothers, and a younger sister who went to the same Sunday school, and remain wedded to the church; decent people too. My family took from Sunday school a (to them), pre-determined natural goodness in the Book. I went 180 degrees the other way, the Book to me was beautiful, but so obviously human contrived, that even today I think it beggers belief that it is held up as a 'moral' tome! You haven't answered my question: Say you were born in another English speaking, Christian country; we'll call Scotland a country. Grow up there in a Presbytarian environment, with good schooling, good health care etc, would Barry be the same Barry of US vintage, or would the pre-determined environment create an entirely different animal?rvb8
July 17, 2016
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rvb8:
Today I visit a few creationist sites, but mainly science ones, to offer a counter point to all this free will defense
rvb8 has said, essentially: I exercise my free will to go to websites to try to get other people to exercise their free will to choose not to believe in free will. *palm forehead*Barry Arrington
July 17, 2016
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rvb8:
I was dismayed, even as a child at the rank stupidity of my Sunday school teachers
A sad but typical story. rvb8's views were fixed as a child based on a child's experiences and he has never looked back.Barry Arrington
July 17, 2016
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rvb8 @ 24:
You have a fondness for the ‘torturing babies’ image, however I won’t psychoanalyse
I use the illustration because it is an example of extreme objective evil. I understand why you don't like it. It brings into stark relief the nonsense you spew about morality being based on mere subjective preferences, no different essentially from the preference for chocolate ice cream over vanilla. And it makes you look feckless, stupid and execrable. The little shot you took at me here doesn't help you in that department either.
this creates a deterministic environment which will create better outcomes
Notice what rvb8 has done here. He uses the word "better" as if it has objective meaning. In other words, he affirms the very thing I said even as he attempts to deny it -- when it comes to moral choices, no person acts as if materialism is true.Barry Arrington
July 17, 2016
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TWSYF; I come here because as a boy growing up, and regularly going to Sunday school I was dismayed, even as a child at the rank stupidity of my Sunday school teachers, and many of my fellow students. I had two close friends there, who also today are atheists because of our environment over which we had no control. Today I visit a few creationist sites, but mainly science ones, to offer a counter point to all this free will defense, that gets far too much emotional air time. And let's face it who isn't moved by individuals and their personal, "Triumph of the Will". Only, when we examine closely each individual story we see that events entirely outside of the individuals control were always the main causal factor in the individuals success or failure. My question is this: Does it really bother you to know that your life is largely out of your control? For example how many middle clas people on the 29th of October 1929 knew that the next day they, their families, and millions of others would be paupers: Determinism at work. Events that form you, need not be so grand, perhaps your uncle hit you when you did something wrong, this caused you to struggle harder; this caused you to become a wife beater; who knows? But, 'free will'? Heh:)rvb8
July 17, 2016
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rvb8
The reason manmade laws are infinately preferrable to God ordained ones, is that man realises our inability to control our actions at times, God and people of a theistic bent are far less maliable.
The entire legal system is based on the assumption that free will exists and that people are responsible for their crimes. To recognize "diminished capacity" is to argue for diminished free will, meaning that free will is the normal condition. Didn't you know that?
I am glad we have laws to protect us from the morality of the self righteous.
How is the law going to protect you from a self-righteous person if the self-righteous person doesn't have free will? Incredibly, you just finished saying that you have empathy for murderers because they have no free will. What irony! You hold self-righteous people accountable to the law because you think they can do better, but you give murderers a pass because their background made them do it.
I also understand it is far better to be moral (aid my fellow human being, care for the sick, give to charity etc) as this creates a deterministic environment which will create better outcomes; better people if you will, which is inturn, good for me.
How can you make the "better" moral decision if determinism can force you to make a worse decision? How can you create a better outcome if determinism sends you on a path to create a worse outcome?StephenB
July 17, 2016
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BA @ 21: Well said, as usual. rvb8: Do you keep coming to this site on your free will? If not, what drives you here?Truth Will Set You Free
July 17, 2016
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Barry, you have a fondness for the 'torturing babies' image, however I won't psychoanalyse. Do you deny that if your parents had procreated in a different part of the world the Barry we know here at ID would be indistinguishable from the Barry of alternative birth? We are the sum of our experiences, good and bad, and we have absolutely no control over these, outside a very marginal one of educational backround (which also alters our behaviour depending on the teacher, school, philosophy, we are exposed to), and the people we,'choose?' to associate with. mike1962, you can safely 'ignore' my determinaism, because you have no free will in the matter. The reason manmade laws are infinately preferrable to God ordained ones, is that man realises our inability to control our actions at times, God and people of a theistic bent are far less maliable. I am glad we have laws to protect us from the morality of the self righteous. I also understand it is far better to be moral (aid my fellow human being, care for the sick, give to charity etc) as this creates a deterministic environment which will create better outcomes; better people if you will, which is inturn, good for me.rvb8
July 17, 2016
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Illusion: An illusion is some particular reality that everyone sees, and is fooled, or deceived, by it. And, not only fooled by this singular reality, but fooled about it in exactly the same way. To say that free will is an illusion is to say that consciousness itself, and free will as an adjunct to consciousness, causes each singular/individual person to be deceived, and to be deceived in a multiplicity of ways, and ways which are independent of each other. This illusion is not common to all, but unique to each person, and unique in every instance of a decision being made. IOW, compared to the simple instance of an illusion, the unreality, or illusion of free will, is something that is infinitely more complex. We cannot compare the two without making a category type mistake. Hence, compatibilism seems to be ruled out because of the extreme complexity it would require. [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Determinism: If we are in actual fact unable to make decisions freely, but are driven to them by unknown causes, then: (1) why are we able to even pose the question of whether or not we possess free will? IOW, if we are ‘determined,’ then what is the antecedent cause leading to our asking about free will; i.e., what gives rise to this ‘illusion’? (2) Similarly, if determinism is real, then the answer to the previous question concerning free will is ‘no.’ However, if the answer is anything other than ‘no,’ (that is, that we do, in fact, have free will) then somehow this existing determinative reality has led us to embrace an illusion. So, if any one person answers the previous question in the affirmative, then that means that the determinative reality which exists is capable of bringing about deceptions, which then makes this determinative reality itself unreliable. IOW, the existing determinative reality is untrustworthy, and any conclusion we reach that this determinative reality exists must itself be untrustworthy. Bottom line: Determinism itself, were it to exist, is deceptive. [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] Simple Toy Image of Free Will: someone at the helm of the who has total control of the ship. Next, we find that this ‘someone’ is actually a robot built on a huge scale, and when we look at the interior of this robot, we find a control room that looks just like the helm of the U.S.S. Enterprise, including someone at the helm. Next, we find that this ‘someone’ at the helm of the U.S.S. Enterprise facsimile inside the robot is itself a robot, but it, too, is built on a large scale. When we look inside this robot at the helm of the U.S.S. Enterprise facsimile, inside the robot at the helm of the actual U.S.S. Enterprise, we find a robot. . . And so forth ad infinitum. We have an infinite regress. How do we solve this? The only way is to simply state that there is an actual ‘person’ at the helm of the U.S.S. Enterprise, who is in charge, and who has, like all persons, free will. IOW, determinism leads to an infinite regress that can only be overcome by positing a person who has free will. Now, let’s look at the actual actions taken by the actual U.S.S. Enterprise. The actual U.S.S. Enterprise has a determinative structure to it: you press some lever, and some action takes place that is the end result of a continuum of determinative causes. This is just like the “neurobiology” humans are born with. Therefore, even if our “neurobiology” is completely “determined,” SOMEONE has to do the directing if we hope to avoid the infinite regress. Now, if we want to avoid this situation by appealing to randomness, quantum randomness, if you like, there is no relief. Why? Because all you have to do is introduce some random event in the string of determinative causes leading to any function the starship performs. This only means that the desired action may, or may not, occur. It’s not a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ ‘on’ or ‘off,’ situation. But all this means is that the person in charge of this ‘machinery’ must make prudent decisions about when, how, and how many times to pull a certain lever, or to push a certain button. So nothing essentially changes, and the ultimate causative agent of this now somewhat random determinative structure remains that of the person in charge.PaV
July 17, 2016
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If rvb8's philosophy is correct, we can safely ignore rvb8's philosophy and anything else he says. Whew! What a relief. Back to my dinner...mike1962
July 17, 2016
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rvb8 engages in unseemly moral preening at 20. Ironic moral preening too. Because for him torturing babies for pleasure and feeding the poor have exactly the same objective moral standing -- i.e., none at all. He insists there is no objective moral standard, and the only reason that he prefers feeding the poor over torturing babies for pleasure is that evolutionary processes have resulted in that preference. For him, if evolutionary processes had resulted in him preferring torturing babies, then that would be good. And that is why the materialist worldview is literally insane. No sane person lives as if it were true. No sane person acts as if he has no free will, because he is certain that it does. No sane person acts as of the materialist account of morality is true, because everyone knows it is not.Barry Arrington
July 17, 2016
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'Could I have done otherwise than write this post?' Ummm, No!, Dr Torley you could not. Your upbrining, your life experiences, your education (and your interpretation of that education, influenced by family, and those you are BOUND to hold dear), all determine that you could not. There will be some here who now will no doubt come out with the, 'I was an atheist, and then using my God given free will, chose to abandon that nihlistic perspective.' In determinism this argument is also unsupportable, as the neighbouhoods, and towns, the nearness of churches, the Islamic country you were born in (moderate-Indonesia; crackpot-Saudi Arabia), all determine your behaviour in your existance. BA77, has absolutely no choice in writing in any way, other than the way he writes. I, of course am subject to the same determinastic forces; and I am unendingly greatful at the dumb, stupid, deterministic luck, that made this so. It releives me of all the bowing and scraping, the endless guilt and fear associated with people who assume there is a higher power to offend. It also improves my moral character, because I realise that through no fault of their own people can be absolute pricks (also, murderers, dictators, or Trumps), and they have my unending sympathy, and because I am deterministic in outlook, also, empathy.rvb8
July 17, 2016
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Bill Cole: How is it possible to have a worldview and then change that worldview without free will?
Easy. A worldview is nothing but brain chemicals, comes into existence by chemicals and is changed by chemicals. IOWs blind non-rational chemistry decides what is true and what's not. Yes, you heard it right. And it makes 'perfect sense', as Seversky @11 "explains":
Current events are just the latest links in chains of cause and effect stretching back through history. For the universe to be apprehensible through reason and logic it must be that way. For us to exist as ordered, rational beings it must be that way.
C.S.Lewis: If human reason came from non-reason it would lose all rational credentials and would cease to be reason.
Haldane: “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays, 1927]
Origenes
July 17, 2016
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Let's have some real straight talk. The purpose for denying free will is to avoid the task of resisting temptation.StephenB
July 17, 2016
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How is it possible to have a worldview and then change that worldview without free will? When it comes to the mind, materialism looses explanatory power.bill cole
July 17, 2016
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gpuccio @8
I doubt evolution provides ground for anything
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on that point. :) Darwinian and/or neo-Darwinian evolution have provided -for many years- fertile ground for some folks out there to sell lots of books and textbooks that include substantial amounts of nonsense. Some of those books are on the [pseudo?]"Science" section bookshelves of many bookstores, though they belong in the "Fiction literature" section. Simply pathetic, but that's the reality no one can deny.Dionisio
July 17, 2016
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Forgive me everyone if I just don't get it. I do not understand WHY anyone in the world struggles with the problem of free will. Here is my contention. 1. I believe that materialism makes as one of its founding assumptions that immaterial entities can not affect the physical world. 2. I firmly believe the existence of free will is undeniable. 3. I firmly believe that free will can only be true if there are immaterial entities which can affect the physical world. 4. THEREFORE, God has made the world so that anyone who OBSERVES the world and RATIONALLY thinks about the problem of free will ---- MUST come to the conclusion that materialism is FALSE. People only struggle with the issue of free will because they want materialism to be true and God to not be required. God will rightly judge the fools who have used their God granted free will to make this foolish decision. In other words Bertrand Russell was wrong... in the obvious demonstration that free will exists God has exposed Himself... He has not hidden himself.JDH
July 17, 2016
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Seversky: Current events are just the latest links in chains of cause and effect stretching back through history. For the universe to be apprehensible through reason and logic it must be that way. For us to exist as ordered, rational beings it must be that way.
You got that exactly wrong: 1. If determinism is true, then all our actions and thoughts are consequences of events and laws of nature in the remote past before we were born. 2. We have no control over circumstances that existed in the remote past before we were born, nor do we have any control over the laws of nature. 3. If A causes B, and we have no control over A, and A is sufficient for B, then we have no control over B. Therefore 4. If determinism is true, then we have no control over our own actions and thoughts. Therefore, assuming that rationality requires control, 5. If determinism is true, we are not rational.Origenes
July 17, 2016
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It seems a waste of time to study the interaction of physical nature and the human brain for an answer to the problem of free will. The will is better understood as an immaterial (or as WJM says, "supernatural") faculty of the soul that empowers an intelligent agent to be a causeless cause. Also, it seems pointless to speak of top-down or bottom-up causation as a singular cause of any volitional act. A better question would be this: To what extent do psycho-dynamic, behavioral, and biological factors limit our free will, and to what extent does the freedom that remains allow us to to make moral choices.StephenB
July 17, 2016
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Current events are just the latest links in chains of cause and effect stretching back through history.
No they are not, not physically. That chain stopped at the moment information was introduced in a local system and created a biology.Upright BiPed
July 17, 2016
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William J Murray @ 3
To dismiss supernatural free will is to recuse yourself from the table of rational debate and action and deny the existence of the only thing that you have to argue with.
"Supernatural free will" doesn't get you anywhere. It just pushes the problem off into another domain. It doesn't solve it. Our universe appears to be contingent. Current events are just the latest links in chains of cause and effect stretching back through history. For the universe to be apprehensible through reason and logic it must be that way. For us to exist as ordered, rational beings it must be that way. So the problem has always been, how do we explain our experience of exercising free will? If your putative supernatural domain is home to some intelligent agency capable of "deliberately overrid[ing] naturally-occurring bottom-level physical processes, including random quantum fluctuations", it too must be ordered if it is something other than random chaos. That means that it too must be contingent, bound by cause and effect relationships just as our universe is. And that means that the same problem of free will must exist there. There may well be other domains of existence of which we are as yet unaware. They can't be ruled out but I don't see that they can help with free will either.Seversky
July 17, 2016
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