Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Suppose ID wins…

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For the sake of argument, let’s surmise that, after a long controversy, finally ID succeeds in scientifically convincing all people that life and the universe are designed. Good, but what happens now? If the universe is a design there must be a designer. What is the designer?

It is likely that evolutionists convinced to ID were atheists or at least agnostic. Therefore for these persons, quite paradoxical, accepting ID could imply a very critical point in their intellectual path.

Let’s start with the worse possibility. The worse case for them would be to equate the designer with something that has nothing to do with God, or – worse – even with something that is a caricature of God. This is clearly the case, for example, of the “flying spaghetti monster”. Maybe such disgusting invention came from insane or disturbed persons, nevertheless come to mind the René Guénon’s words:

One can consider satanic, in some measure, any theory that exceedingly deforms the idea of divinity; first of all, according to this point of view, would be the conceptions of a God that evolves and those of a limited God. (L’erreur spirite, part II, chap. X) [my translation]

Hence, technically, to greater reason, “the church of the flying spaghetti monster”, has an ultimate satanic inspiration. Moreover it clearly shows the sign of grotesque, as often satanic productions do. This explains also why this “church” (or better, this “anti-church”) is against all religions. For these reasons, before this sort of things, I don’t laugh at all.

If a Darwinist convinced by ID risks to fall in an incorrect or malicious conception of the Great Designer, then I go until to say that it is better the atheist evolutionist remains such. Because blasphemy and sacrilege are far worse than simple ignorance and negation. That said by an ultra anti-Darwinian (my name speaks clear).

But let’s consider the serious evolutionists, who have demonstrated their intelligence by recognizing the truth of ID. At this point they are in a somewhat intermediate position. They have abandoned materialism but haven’t yet reached theism. They are in a risky middle ground between two opposite worldviews. I said “risky” because they face a cross-road. On the right there is true spirituality, on the left there is false spiritualism. False spiritualism is far worse than materialism. If they abandon materialism to go towards false spiritualism, it would be better for them to remain materialists. That said by an ultra non-materialist.

Countless times it has been said that ID theory per se is simply a scientific design inference. That ID theory doesn’t specify a designer. That the ID inference is unrelated to the identity of the designer, etc. This is true in a sense. But in my opinion to leave fully undefined the designer, without giving at least an hint about, is not to do a good service to our converted friends evolutionists. To have won the scientific controversy without offering a global framework of knowledge, a correct complete worldview, could be a lost opportunity or even counterproductive for them. An ID proponent who has helped to lead those evolutionists towards an ID non materialistic position, has some responsibility about their future intellectual iter, iter which is necessarily related to such worldview. As a metaphor, if you help someone to get across a perilous river, then you cannot leave him alone in the middle, you have to escort him to the opposite side.

It is having in mind my part of responsibility that, in a previous post I tried to explain that theism is an implication of the design inference on the cosmos and give an idea about the Great Designer.

Comments
Larry you are grasping at straws, again. The conference was held at Cornell. There have been other ID conferences so saying "Cornell" specifies which one. Also UD has NOTHING to do with Springer. IOW you are running around with the goalpost in typical cowardly fashion.Joe
September 3, 2013
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Let me quote the title of a post made on UD today, 3 September 2013:
Open Mike: Cornell OBI Conference Chapter 12—“Can Purifying Natural Selection Preserve Biological Information?”—Excerpt
The title is a lie. It is not the "Cornell OBI Conference," but just the "OBI Conference." Cornell had nothing to do with the conference. Cornell did not sponsor the conference. Cornell did not publicize the conference. Don't talk to me about my credibility, Joe, while UD is telling its lies from right behind you.LarTanner
September 3, 2013
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Well we know what you say is NOT credible. And ENV has the facts that not even you can dispute. So LarTanner posts total nonsense, gets called on it and chokes. Very typical...Joe
September 3, 2013
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Oh, I didn't realize the fair and balanced "Evolution News and Views" has weighed in on the topic. Yeah, whatever they say is probably credible. LOL!LarTanner
September 3, 2013
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The facts of the "Cornell" ID conference- oops that refutes Larry...Joe
September 3, 2013
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LoL@ LarTanner- There isn't any evidence that anyone tried to flim-flam a publisher Larry. You made that up. And Hedin's class was all about science. Again just because you don't know what science is doesn't mean anything here.Joe
September 3, 2013
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Mung (#84) and Upright Biped, Two recent lies are the "Cornell" conference and the "science" class of Hedin and BSU. The first is an instance of trying to flim-flam a publisher with inflated credentials, the other is an attempt to use a science class for religious proselytizing. We can review many more, but let's not be naive and act as though ID was honest in any sense.LarTanner
September 3, 2013
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If ID wins we'll put Gregory in front of a firing squad and after all the guns have fired we'll ask him to explain how it is that he is still alive.Mung
August 31, 2013
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Well, in the end I want to thank all the commenters: they offered many ideas, which could be opportunities for others posts in the future. Especially I wish to thank the three formidable debaters Gregory, Timaeus and CD-Proponentist for having accepted my invite to conciliation. I well know conciliation is never an easy task (ask my wife... :) ). Timaeus, yours #107 is more than an act of friendship and I like its last word "peace". Gregory is calm and likely is considering Timaeus' gentle invite to dialogue even outside UD. CD-Proponentist proved to be a wise mediator between the two. I am glad of all that. Thank you.niwrad
August 31, 2013
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niwrad: Prior to your call for acts of friendship, I had wished Gregory the best in his sociological career, and invited a cessation of hostilities. I remain, however, puzzled by his behavior. In response to your call for peace, he declares that he did not wish to exacerbate tensions; how he thought he would avoid exacerbating tensions by accusing one of his interlocutors of being "self-serving" and the other of being a "fool" I cannot imagine. Gregory: If your offer of a platform on your website requires revealing my civilian name, I must respectfully decline. If it allows me to retain my stage name without threat or even hint of exposure, I *might* consider making an appearance. However, if met by a dialogical treatment *anything like* the treatment I have been met with in the replies above, my first posting would quickly become my last. I would also expect an immediate apology for the adjective "self-serving" above, and a retraction of that characterization of my motives, as well as an apology for all the times you have called me cowardly, hypocritical, duplicitous, etc. on this site -- and more than a pro forma apology, an actual admission that such language was improper for a Christian and a scholar to use -- plus a promise never again to use those or similar terms about me here or on your site or in any other public venue. (And if I have ever used similar terms on this site to describe you, you can point them out and I will issue a similar apology, and make a similar promise of non-repetition of the offense.) And of course, my final decision on whether or not to participate would depend on what you were planning to discuss. It would have to be a topic that interested me, i.e., it would have to be something pertaining to "the strength of the arguments for design in nature." I am not interested in the sociological analysis of the intelligent design movement, or in the real or alleged personal religious or political motivations of design proponents, or in debates over the capitalization or non-capitalization of words or initials, or in ascertaining why Discovery is so lousy at social science. In order to avoid an unnecessary waste of time on your part, I would suggest that you send me, privately (at my gmail address), and in advance of publication, your proposed first column concerning my thought on ID, and I would then tell you whether or not I would be interested in contributing to a discussion framed in such a way. Of course, if your purpose is only to savage me and my thought, you can do that without my participation. But if you are interested in actual dialogue, you will be glad to include me in the planning of your "series" on my thought. I add that, while it is flattering to hear you are considering "showcasing" my thought (even if primarily to show its weaknesses), I doubt that my thoughts about ID are worthy of any special attention, and I affirm that the writings of thoughtful biologists such as Denton and Sternberg would be of much more value to your readers than anything I could say. So I would recommend that you write about them, rather than me. If you find my suggestions here unreasonable, we need not debate them; let us simply part in peace.Timaeus
August 30, 2013
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G:
So atheists would be either escorted or wiped off the face of the Earth, due to the hypothetical ‘victory’ of IDT. That would be the IDist vision of ‘historical justice.’
Setting aside the paranoia for the moment, whose victory would you like to see, Gregory?Phinehas
August 30, 2013
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If you still don’t understand what ... ‘Universal Designism’ ... mean(s)
I took a minute to try Google and learn what that term means. Strange, only one reference to the term can be found -- and it points to this blog. :-) How about Designism itself? That's much better, there's actually a blog that explains it: What is Designism? http://www.beadesigngroup.com/blog/archives/2006/09/what-is-designism.php It's good to keep up to date with the global ID conspiracy in all its manifold forms!CD Proponentist
August 30, 2013
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Second, I confess that, despite years of interaction with Gregory, I have few clear conceptions of his motives, and it would be wrong of me to impute motives to him that I do not know. Also, it is best that I not discuss him in public in the third person. On this subject, therefore, I must leave you to your own resources.
Ok, good advice, Timaeus - thanks.CD Proponentist
August 30, 2013
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p.s. and btw, I'm quite serious about what I wrote in #3 wrt the OP's 'win' scenario:
"finally, after many years looking backwards, only backwards, to the ‘origins’ (of life, biological information, humans, etc.), the IDM, huge/gigantic as it will then be, will turn to look forward."
Finally looking forward as a 'theory'! If we can imagine ourselves 'intelligently xyz___ing' on Earth; would that not make us more like 'gods'? A humble theology/worldview would certainly then be required for moral and ethical purposes, should human beings gain control of 'evolving/intelligent xyz___ing' their/our futures ... even as it may aim at post-humanism and artificial eternal life.Gregory
August 30, 2013
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Thanks niwrad for your gentle counsel. I wrote #101 before reading and didn't mean to exaccerbate the tension.
"What has to do IDM/IDT with this situation? ID can help to correct one of the above errors: evolutionism (a sub-error of scientism)." - niwrad
Intention fairly stated. But I don't think IDM/IDT is actually capable of this. Behe accepts evolutionary theory to a significant degree. Dembski even accepts 'technological evolution.' Asking the question "what are examples of 'things that don't evolve'?" is too difficult philosophically for DI-IDM leaders (I have personal experience of this face-to-face with them) or for IDT's narrow focus on OoL, OoBI & human origins. They're just not ready for it. The overwhelming and seemingly ever-present desire to 'appear scientific' by the IDM, the 'strictly [natural] scientific]' theory requirement of Dembksi, Behe, Meyer and their PR and legal teams at the DI is too much to expect IDism to contribute fruitfully on this topic. I've been following this topic since before I'd heard of 'Intelligent Design' and the most entrenched problems have not been solved by IDism by a long-shot. If you're "waiting for better tools" perhaps the time is already upon us, niwrad. But you must first be willing to let go of IDism as an over-confident 'scientific revolution' propaganda chant that actually doesn't have much to offer on a practical scientific level.
"It tries to refute evolutionism with the same paradigms of scientism."
Yes, that is close to IDT's meagre and superficial efforts to overcome evolutionism. niwrad, I've found a better way. And there's no reason to discard theological 'design arguments' in order to simply embrace 'strictly [natural] scientistic' IDism to walk that path. Yes, 'scientism' is a problem. We are surely agreed (even timaeus will likely nod his head shell-shocked). I've just written a review of a book about it. But scientistic IDism is not an appropriate solution. That needs to be clearly understood and put into CONTEXT of what Johnson's IDM is/was trying to achieve. Respectfully, Gr.Gregory
August 30, 2013
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I will state unequivocally that *I do not believe, and do not assert, that Gregory would agree with the statement in my hypothetical retraction*. I do not wish any reader here to think that Gregory would assent to my proposed words. Nor did I ever intend for any reader to think that.
Thanks for the apology. I do not like it when you write things like “Gregory *should* say this...” I’d thought you would have known that by now.
“conceding to me one factual error in one of his sentences.” – timaeus
If you still don’t understand what ‘Generic Design,’ ‘Universal Designism’ and ‘Scientific Revolution’ mean, timaeus, there is probably not much insight that can help you. I stand by what I wrote and think your IDist propaganda knows almost no limits of incredibility. What is disappointing is that you are apparently willing to throw so many fellow theists under the bus as ‘liberals’ or ‘TEs’ based on your narrow reading list and ‘revolutionary’ IDist sympathies. “The specialist is one who never makes small mistakes while moving toward the grand fallacy.” I’ve been trying to help you avoid this grand fallacy, timaeus, but you apparently *want* to embrace IDism as your personal ideology uber alles. Perhaps go see a Catholic or Orthodox priest who is scientifically trained that could help straighten you out about your Expelled Syndrome timaean IDism?
“You and I are as opposite, as human beings, as any two people could be.”
Typical timaean exaggeration noted. Well, then you should watch “The Matrix,” timaeus. You are Agent Smith, I am Neo. Actually, I don’t think you’re a very good opposite. Unfortunately, though, you’ve chosen or forced yourself *not* to be in a position to publish scholarly work about evolution, creationism and ID, so we couldn’t find any common ground outside of your preferred ID-friendly blogging. timaeus, you completely misunderstand PERSONHOOD, more than almost any person, certainly not any ‘humanities’ scholar I thought ever could. By all means, please *do* involve questions of personality and motivation, that is such an important part of this conversation…*IFF* you’re willing to reciprocate. The impersonal, objectivistic (not just Randian) neutralist myth has been tragically swallowed by IDist scientism to much hurt. This reflects why I do not suffer from Expelled Syndrome while you most clearly do. How can you close your eyes, ears and heart so unbelievably tightly as to not even realise (i.e. to completely FORGET) the humanity, flesh and blood and spirit that you are purposefully leaving out of your pro-IDism (and that the IDM leaders are intentionally leaving out) based on your Expelled Syndrome, timaeus? It just boggles my mind that this is even possible.
“I make no judgment between us. I merely state that we cannot get along. That is an empirical fact.”
timaeus, get healed my friend. Wake up and discover how to overcome Expelled Syndrome. I am hoping for your eventual recovery, improved health and peace of mind. Gregory p.s. CD Proponentist; I am not Russian, but your #95 is disgustingly myopic about the world today and wrongfully disparaging to people of a sovereign nation, free from American cultural imperialism and flush with fruitful thinkers on the topic of science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse, which the DI-led IDM is too cowardly to announce as its obvious raison d’être. p.p.s. just a note to add that since I'll eventually be posting a thread about 'timaeus' (one of the most strong-headed and enigmatic characters 'in but not of' the IDM) on my blog, the genuine offer to him in this thread of having an open one-on-one discussion with him there, which is still open, provides him the courtesy of an opportunity to represent his own vision of IDism in his own words, rather than simply being de-knotted and untangled by my witness to his pro-IDT, Expelled Syndrome shenanigans.Gregory
August 30, 2013
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Gregory #90
Further above I spoke of “considering a ‘third way’ or ‘third ways’ to productively move the general science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse forward.” Do you support this niwrad?
I support the traditional worldview (its major representative in the modern times was Guénon). According to this worldview, the hierarchy of knowledge has metaphysics at its top and all sciences below. Metaphysics should illuminates sciences and in turn sciences should be "supports" to help reaching metaphysics. This worldview has been destroyed by the pseudo-intellectuality of modernism and all its errors (rationalism, materialism, scientism...). The results are before our eyes: intellectual confusion and practical disasters in all fields. We are all involved in this downfall. The cure would be the reestablishment of the true traditional intellectuality. What has to do IDM/IDT with this situation? ID can help to correct one of the above errors: evolutionism (a sub-error of scientism). ID is a tool. It is not perfect, but one must begin to use what is available, waiting for better tools. Even one could object that is a tool using the same concepts of the error it pretends to refute. In a sense it is so. It tries to refute evolutionism with the same paradigms of scientism. It makes scientism self-refute. But after all it is a Tantra principle to use poison as medicine... P.S. Given I am the thread owner and I started it with a spirit of pacification, I grieve that the discussion risks to end with acrimony. Then I gently invite please Gregory, Timaeus and CD-Proponentist to a small act of friendship. Anyone has it own character and writing style but I think no one is really bad. It would be fine, if possible. If that is not possible among "four cats" (as they say in my country), then we cannot marvel at the conflicts between nations... Thank you.niwrad
August 30, 2013
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CD Proponentist: Thanks for your reply. I can neither confirm nor deny your speculations about Gregory's intellectual or personal motives. First of all, I know little about contemporary Russia or contemporary Russian universities. (Which I mentioned, and only in passing, because Gregory did his Ph.D. at a Russian university; if he had done his Ph.D. at Ghent I would have used the example of Belgian universities.) Second, I confess that, despite years of interaction with Gregory, I have few clear conceptions of his motives, and it would be wrong of me to impute motives to him that I do not know. Also, it is best that I not discuss him in public in the third person. On this subject, therefore, I must leave you to your own resources. Nonetheless, I reaffirm my appreciation for a number of the insightful remarks you made in your earlier posts. It is good to know that I am not alone in my reactions.Timaeus
August 30, 2013
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Like I said CD Proponentist, you *could* address the OP's "Suppose ID wins" topic, or you could just ignore it and come flailing after me for pointing out legitimate and fatal flaws in the IDism that you obviously cherish. You made a baby step of an attempt to address niwrad's topic, but obviously prefer my antagonism. Perhaps niwrad will respond to your #74, which calls into doubt the meaning of his OP.
"you’ve created a paranoid fantasy world where this movement is both a threat to all human life on the planet" - CD Proponentist
Actually I don't think the current IDM or IDT are much of any threat at all to human life. There's nothing paranoid about that. I've observed the social reality of the IDM and IDists up close (perhaps we've even met in person, CD?). They're a pretty immunized, puritanial, nothing-that-exciting, dependable lot. Honestly, I think many ID proponents need a bit more excitement in their lives, which is perhaps why they are so fanatically interested to take the label 'Revolutionary' following Dembski's lead. If you don't think timaeus gets a personal rise (and fall) out of his perceived defence of the IDT citadel as if it was Middle Earth, then you don't know him from his writings very well. It's convenient and expected but meaningless for you to project 'paranoid fantasy' onto me, CD Proponetist. But then again, your chosen pseudonym attests to the failure of IDism as a 'strictly [natural] scientistic' fantasy, so between us who is the more 'fantastical' is up for grabs. (Of course, here at UD, the 'community' will say I am, which makes sense to them on ideological grounds.) The scenario that niwrad painted is a stark one indeed, which I tried to meet appropriately. Most IDists are harmless, neo-creationists, under-educated folks (although more educated than YECists). There are a few vicious ones and a disenchanted cynical IDist is definitely *NOT* a pretty sight. The vast majority of 'practising' scientists don't take IDists seriously and only humour them as easily misled. They are gullible to the Kuhnian 'paradigm shift' as neo-creationist wish-fulfillment against 'evolutionary theories,' following their level-one American PoS. Meyer could have done much more productive for humanity with his Cambridge University HPS degree than being seduced into activism by Thaxton and Johnson, taking the reigns of the CRSC/CSC, then thrashing speculatively about OoL and writing books over-confidently as a 'revolutionary' in fields that he has little training (Signature in the Cell and Darwin's Doubt). At least Meyer is not totally closed to involving IDT with theodicy in a science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse, but of course that would self-destruct IDT as it is currently known. Most IDists are only 'heard' with their IDism in their local evangelical church settings, with a very small few of them actively trying to convert their local school boards into 'teaching the controversy' or getting anti-evolution stickers in textbooks, etc. A harmless people; nice, even kind, but not to be trusted based on their infatuation with PR, legalism and American politics.
"ID[Theory] is not worth the time to discuss." - CD Proponentist
Well, you might be onto something there. Carry on then, CD.
"you haven’t quite got the right tag for me yet." - CD Proponentist
How about this: "A person who takes the unfortunate name of an editorial error"? That seems right, at least on the surface. You called the person who made that editorial error 'illiterate,' but what that makes you then is anyone's opinion. He/she who embraces illiteracy? Well, you could openly admit here that you are *NOT* an IDT proponent, supporter or even (gasp) 'ID theorist'. It seems rather obvious that you are pro-IDT and playing coy about it is surely what many ID proponents do (according to Expelled Syndrome). So don't volunteer anything you don't want to, CD. Keep as mysterious and passerby as you like! ;) Or why not tell us an appropriate 'tag' for you, CD? I imagine you'll go back into hiding like a typical IDist showing Expelled Syndrome symptoms. Again, 'hostility' is your own projection. I am making a calm, clear, rational, coherent criticism of IDism and the IDM. And I do it smiling. I am showing IDists that they are not immune from being studied for what they actually say and do, some of which is in the public record (most of which timaeus apparently hasn't read, in his isolated hermit cave). To IDists, this might sound 'hostile' or 'angry,' or at least discomforting (which is how many natural scientists feel when someone observes them as 'specimens') due to how it shows the weaknesses in their ideology and Movement. But I mean no ill-will to IDists, just by offering a much needed reality check during their tribal chants of 'Scientific Revolution!'
"the ID plan for global domination" - CD Propnentist
Nowhere did I state that; that's just the culture war you are engaged in getting under your skin as projection. But I did say something which you haven't addressed and likely won't CD, that IDT actively discriminates against atheists and atheism and explained why & how above. You, sir, would have a lot of work on your hands to prove otherwise because of Dembski's writings and Johnson's earlier texts and interviews. The polemics which IDism has created by its presence, the way the term 'Intelligent Design' is now badly stained and smelly for most honest theists who want nothing to do with the DI's political, PR, legal machinations, speaks gravely against any evidence of a positive contribution that IDT has made to humanity. Like I said; nice people, unfortunately sucked into ideological revolutionary fervour. As for Michael Behe, please give him my regards. Let me assure you, he seems like a loveable even if naive guy (still a decent well-published specialist, apparently until recently) and I wish him "all the best" as well...while encouraging him to study more philosophy IN science, thus leading him away from willingly labelling himself as a 'Scientific Revolutionary! in the name of the tainted concept duo of 'Intelligent Design.' He can find me again for conversation if he wants to. His personal-RCC theology and faith will eventually live on well without IDT (or Dembski, Meyer, Wells, Nelson, et al.) and his disassociation from the Movement will likely spur his future career or at least bring him back scientific credibility that has been seriously eroded. Oops, I guess that last comment belongs in the "Suppose ID loses" thread.Gregory
August 30, 2013
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I don’t recall whether we have interacted before; if we have, and I’ve forgotten, my apologies. But based on your current sally, I’d say we can expect good things from you in the future.
Thanks for your kind words, Timaeus. I don't think we've interacted before. I've been reading this blog for about 8 years but only posted a very few times. I'll be back again when the occasion arises.CD Proponentist
August 30, 2013
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It is time to end the non-constructive exchange with Gregory. However, before leaving, I want to rebut an absolutely false accusation about my conversational procedure. "I reject the words that timaeus has just put into my mouth (“I’d like to hear…something like this” – though he told the moderator he would not do this anymore)." (92) I most emphatically did not "put words into Gregory's mouth," in the normal sense of that idiom in the English language. To "put words into someone's mouth" means to impute or ascribe to them words that they never said or thought. It means leading the reader or listener to believe: "This person says or thinks X." Anyone reading the hypothetical retraction that I wrote can see from the context that I did not do this. I did not *say*, *imply*, *intimate*, or *suggest*, that Gregory ever *uttered*, or even *thought*, *a single word* of the hypothetical retraction that he is complaining about. Any reader who pays attention to context will immediately know that the hypothetical retraction was meant to represent what I *wish* that Gregory would say and think, after honestly reflecting on my arguments. But what I *wish* that Gregory would say and think, and what Gregory has *actually* said and thought, are two different things. And the context of the hypothetical retraction made it very, very clear that I recognize that difference. I would have been "putting words in Gregory's mouth" if I had said "Gregory actually thinks that I am right about 'blurring' but will not say it." Then I would be imputing to Gregory thoughts that he has not expressed, and reporting those imagined thoughts to the public, without any warrant for doing so. That would be morally, socially, and academically wrong. But I did not do that. What I promised to the moderator was not to "put words in Gregory's mouth" in exactly the sense explained above. I meant that I would never try to lead the reader to believe that Gregory said or thought anything that he had not actually expressed in his own words. And I have kept that promise. But to make it absolutely clear, I will state unequivocally that *I do not believe, and do not assert, that Gregory would agree with the statement in my hypothetical retraction*. I do not wish any reader here to think that Gregory would assent to my proposed words. Nor did I ever intend for any reader to think that. My intention was only to convey to Gregory an *example* of what, in my opinion, would be a reasonable and fair response for him to make to my arguments -- a response that would allow him to retain 99.99% of his views, while conceding to me one factual error in one of his sentences. So now, Gregory, if there *is* anyone out there who actually misunderstood my hypothetical "concession speech," their misunderstanding is corrected. Though I never "put words into your mouth" in the accepted use of that phrase, if anyone *thought* I was putting words into your mouth, they now can no longer think that, with my clarification here. My original promise to the moderator -- which was not to put words into your mouth, or else, if ever guilty of doing so, to immediately retract those words as soon as I realized it -- has been fulfilled. For, even if I *were* guilty of your charge -- which I'm not -- I have now "retracted" my misdeed. In the meantime, your direct personal insult -- your charge above that my motives for arguing as I do are "self-serving" -- remains unretracted. And I would remind you that ceasing to issue personal insults of that kind was one of the things that *you* promised to the moderator. (If you don't remember this, I will privately email the correspondence to you, to verify the claim.) As I've said before Gregory, I wish you the best of luck in your sociological career. I bear you no malice. But we just do not get along. It is not a question of merely academic disagreement; I get along personally very well with all kinds of people with whom I have strenuous academic disagreements. It is a question of personality types. You and I are as opposite, as human beings, as any two people could be. We disagree not merely regarding ideas, but on just about every fundamental attitude towards education, politics, religion, human relationships, etc. I would be surprised if we even liked any food, sport or television show or popular song in common. I have in recent months tried to overcome this personal gap by adopting a stance of strict politeness, of avoiding questions of personality and motivation, of sticking to the intellectual issues. But it is not working. You and I are never going to see eye-to-eye, never mind about contents, but even about *how to converse* about contents. We have completely different ideas about what is a direct response and what is an evasive one, what is fair and what is below the belt, what is logically sound and what is not logically sound, how much freedom we should have to make up our own meaning for words, and so on. We thus cannot even agree on *rules of conversation*, which means that any discussion of *contents* will be fruitless. I make no judgment between us. I merely state that we cannot get along. That is an empirical fact. And there is no point in our subjecting the good people here to the equivalent of sitcom husband-and-wife bickering. They are not learning anything from the friction between us. So let's agree simply not to address each other in the future. If we cannot have agreement, or warmth, let us at least have detente. Again, best wishes.Timaeus
August 30, 2013
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Timaeus wrote:
Maybe academic etiquette is different in Sociology, or in Russia.
I didn't want to say anything about this, but since you introduced it ... I can see now so many Russian/cultural characteristics in Gregory's comments that it really puts everything in context. The first thing that struck me was the anti-American Protestant Evangelical position. That's a widespread fear in Russia (and one in which I somewhat share) from the spreading of American Christian cults there. Following that, I hate to say it, I notice the paranoia. The fantasy of ID as secret service agents going door to door. What seems like an exaggerated fear of American influence may not be so strange from a Russian perspective. The superiority complex (I mentioned chip on the shoulder). The crying out for attention. The stream of insults. The mangling of English language -- and fixation on English terms. The theological ambiguity. The anti-Darwinism (claimed but never witnessed here) -- pushes one towards ID. But if there's this in-built hatred of the ID-Movement's Evangelical celebrities, then one has to seek a "third way". The fear of force-conversions of atheists (obviously would be a widespread concern in Russia). The failure to recognize the many varieties of atheism (very little religious plurality in Russia over the past 70 years). I'm guessing some kind of Eastern theological position in a Western culture -- some sort of modified Islamic belief. All of this fits and is essential to understanding his hatred for ID.CD Proponentist
August 30, 2013
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Thanks for your replies, Gregory. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm just passing through and I was just interested in learning about the origin of your hostility to ID. Through your long commentaries, I've got a very good idea now about your position, so thanks for explaining that. No, I'm not an IDism-ist. I realize that classifying and labeling people is an extremely important exercise in sociology, but you haven't quite got the right tag for me yet. I think most readers here can spot the errors and wild misrepresentations of the topic in your commentary, so I won't get into that. It seems to me that you're looking for a reaction rather than seeking understanding. Your focus is on the ID "Movement", and it strikes me that you've created a paranoid fantasy world where this movement is both a threat to all human life on the planet, and at the same time a completely ineffectual, easily-ignored social phenomenon. It's these sorts of incongruities that make it impossible to follow your argumentation. As I've already suggested, you've spent considerable time putting forth an abundance of text, with scholarly footnotes and historical references in order to explain that ID is not worth the time to discuss. You contradict yourself continually in this regard. I could go into virtually every paragraph you wrote and observe the problems, but I'll leave that to anyone who has the time and patience. Yes, I do sense quite a lot of hostility in your attitude, even though you've denied that. You're not seeing yourself as you appear to this group. I'll just close with one of what could be many observations: You speak of the:
ideology of (Intelligent) Designism
For a person who seems fixated on the correct use of labels and on the definition of terms ... here (as in other places) you simply invent your own terminology and leave it undefined. It's completely ambiguous and is offered with no proof. This is the nature of a "sociological fact" apparently. This from a guy who claims to possess "clear thinking". Initially, I thought your paranoid fantasy about the ID plan for global domination was amusing -- and it was for a brief while. But now it's pretty boring and even somewhat frightening. I can assure you, Michael Behe has no plans to go around killing atheists in the name of ID. I wish you would just trust me on that, but I'm pretty sure that you're not going to believe it. Anyway, all the best to you.CD Proponentist
August 30, 2013
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timaeus, your arguments don't amount to much. You defend an IDT that differs from the IDM. I'm not interested to 'accept' your personal IDT, or the Expelled Syndrome that obviously comes with it. 1) Motives *are* facts when they are expressed; social facts. timaeus is purposefully oblivious to them, living in a CONTEXT vaccuum. This is his isolationist prerogative, but others needn't live this way. 2) I treat timaeus as a person, just as I treat everyone else as a person. Nobody here is ideology-free, nobody here is a 'facts-only' robot. Ideologies are fair game for discussion, espcially given how often they are involved in peoples' expressions in this science, philosophy, theology/worldview. Please grow up and face this social reality, timaeus. Claiming 'nothing personal' on a topic of such deep personal significance as science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse is amazingly superficial. There would be no UD if personalities were not involved. That is why I recommended as a cure for his Expelled Syndrome that timaeus, in his real life, consider taking a position in one of the growing number of science, philosophy, theology/worldview programs around the world where he could put his religious studies knowledge and interest in philosophy and natural science to some productive work, away from his fanatical pro-IDism. He didn't answer to this practical suggestion, of course. Apparently he isn't interested in being relevant, just in pro-IDism blogging. As for dealing with timaeus' 'arguments', we still don't know if timaeus knew about the regular claims of 'scientific revolution' by IDist leaders or not, when he claimed that 'perhaps' people other than himself suggest IDism is a 'scientific revolution'. He so habitually avoids answering my direct questions that he probably doesn't even think he is doing it any longer. Anyone reading this thread can see his avoidance tactics and victim-playing. If he wants to keep his motives to himself about why he's doing this, that's up to him and him alone. I'm just trying to get at the truth on this issue.
"we certainly cannot rule out a priori the existence of superhuman intelligences" - timaeus
No, we can't. I agree. But that conversation is not and cannot be 'strictly [natural] scientific' as IDism currently demands. (One would think, given that I've repeated it many times, timaeus would learn to acknowledge that I put emphasis on this particular phrase for a reason.) It's o.k. imo to admit that IDism crosses the boundaries from a 'strictly [natural] science' hypothesis into natural theology/worldview and philosophy. Most non- and anti-IDists know this already; it is not a public secret. 'Superhuman intelligences [Intelligences] are simply not within the proper domain of 'strictly [natural] sciences.'
"as long as we cannot rule out the existence of such intelligences [Intelligences], the analogy upon which design [Design] inferences are based remains a reasonable one." - timaeus
No, it's not reasonable. It is strictly ideological, wanting to overhaul the natural sciences with a 'Design Revolution'. We can and should rule out such Intelligences *IN* 'strictly [natural] sciences'. That is, unless one invokes a theological prerogative such as the imago Dei. And in that case, it is theologically responsible to capitalise 'Designer' (or Creator), as niwrad has done. If timaeus could only grow brave enough to face the triadic discourse of science, philosophy, theology/worldview (which is daunting for EVERYONE, even the wisest, and indeed precariously wonderful as a result!), then he wouldn't have to stoop to play these low-level parlour games that IDists play with smoke and mirrors. Here we have witnessed timaeus talking (perhaps for the 1st time) about 'superhuman,' which saves him from talking about 'supernatural.' Indeed, a strong point can be made that 'superhuman' is the rightful domain of human-social sciences, not of 'strictly [natural] sciences.'
"finding a point of likeness between human and non-human designers (e.g., intelligence)" - timaeus
Do you mean 'likeness' as in imago Dei? Read this carefully, timaeus, it is an argument that is made by the theists who you don't seem to want to read: There is no 'strictly [natural] scientific' way of knowing if those hypothetical 'superhuman intelligences [Intelligences]' are the same in KIND to human [lowercase] intelligence. It *is* thus a faulty analogy based on the obvious desire to build a 'Generic Design' theory, which the IDM (but not timaeus) stringently insists is/can be a [strictly [natural] scientific' theory. Thinking people, including theists who have been as patient as possible given the IDM's over-confident 'scientific revolution' attitude, reject this 'Generic Design' hypothesis and rightly so. I have provided reasons for this and hinted at the dangers of Designism (which most IDists simply disallow themselves even to consider); timaeus does not want to hear the responsible reasons. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
"an intelligence [Intelligence], akin to that found in human beings, but not itself human" - timaeus
O.k. now we're getting something interesting. timaeus is trying to build a hypothesis of a transcendent Designer and transcendent Intelligence(even if he still stubbornly refuses to capitalise appropriate letters). Is there any 'strictly [natural] scientific' evidence for this that IDT has help us discover, timaeus? What makes the hypothesized 'Intelligence' seem "akin to that found in human beings," aside from philosophical and theological/worldview presuppositions of 'superhuman Intelligence'? These are ANTHROPIC questions given the inclusion of human beings. Sadly, I expect timaeus to express himself as unanthropically and dispassionately as possible, following his usual pro-IDism neutralistic style. 'Generic Design,' i.e. trying to universalise the concept of 'Design' into the ideology of (Intelligent) Designism (read: IDism) is indeed an intentional blurring move by the IDM. It conflates unlike things under a single label: Design. timaeus can disagree with this statement all he wants; timidly, fiercely or with rhetorical spin and excuses as usual. The logic behind it still stands. I reject the words that timaeus has just put into my mouth ("I'd like to hear...something like this" - though he told the moderator he would not do this anymore). He can tie his personal identity and future allegiances to 'simply intelligence' if he wants. That holds rather weaker 'strictly [natural] scientific' explantory power than most scholars are accustomed to settling for. I'm pretty much finished with timaeus and won't be looking for a scholarly contribution from him outside of ID-friendly blogs anytime soon. Far too much time spent trying to convince an Expelled Syndrome victim that with hope, hard work (and maybe try reading the 'father of the IDM' P. Johnson someday timaeus?) and clear thinking, one day he could be eventually healed and perhaps remake his career.Gregory
August 30, 2013
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Gregory wrote: "Nevertheless, I’m not scared of timaeus’ tactics and see through his self-serving rhetoric." Two points: 1. I don't wish Gregory (or anyone else) to be "scared" of anything about me. I merely wish that Gregory would pay attention to my arguments, instead of responding to them with off-topic material (i.e., endless paragraphs about ID people's alleged motives, when I'm disputing not motives but facts), or with personal remarks. 2. "Self-serving rhetoric" imputes a bad motive, and is an unnecessary personal remark. Such personal remarks are unfortunately common in Gregory's posts. I do not know why. I know that whenever I made remarks (much less personal than the one above) which targeted a person rather than an argument, whether in graduate seminars or in my essays or dissertations, my graduate supervisors brought me up short and ordered me to eliminate such expressions from my writing. Apparently my training was different from Gregory's. I cannot account for that. Maybe academic etiquette is different in Sociology, or in Russia. I feign no hypotheses. All I can say is that I prefer the traditional practice, which is that one argues against the point, not the person. And I would respectfully ask Gregory, as I've asked him before, to eliminate all such personal remarks from his comments. So much for procedural matters. On the issue of content: Yes, it is *exactly* my position that "intelligence simply" is all we need to consider *for the purpose of making design arguments*. We *learn* of intelligence, to be sure, mainly from our experience of *human* intelligence; but there is no reason to suppose that human beings are the only beings in which intelligence can or does reside. It is arguable that at least some animals are intelligent, even to the point of designing things (e.g., beaver dams); but even if we leave out animal intelligence, we certainly cannot rule out a priori the existence of superhuman intelligences, whether they reside in completely immaterial bodies or in bodies of a refined form of matter unknown to us. And as long as we cannot rule out the existence of such intelligences, the analogy upon which design inferences are based remains a reasonable one. There is certainly no "blurring" going on when one argues that an intelligence, akin to that found in human beings, but not itself human, may be responsible for the genetic code, the flagellum, the eye, etc. The argument properly separates the human from the non-human -- which is why Gregory's original statement -- which is all I undertook to discuss -- remains false. I am not asking Gregory to come over to my side regarding ID. I am not asking Gregory to agree with me about anything, except one thing: that his statement about "blurring" was erroneous. That is a small concession. I am asking him to admit error in one sentence out of hundreds which he has published on this page. He could prove that he is a true scholar by admitting error on this one point, while retaining all the rest of his position and continuing to oppose me in other respects. What I'd like to hear from Gregory is something like this: "I admit that ID proponents regularly and clearly acknowledge that clocks are not cells and that human beings are not God (or aliens or Demiurges etc.), and I admit that ID proponents do not blur the distinction between human and non-human designers, but acknowledge it. I admit also that finding a point of likeness between human and non-human designers (e.g., intelligence) is not the same as blurring the distinction between them. My original statement was not accurate, and I withdraw it." Such an admission from Gregory would double or triple the academic respect I have for him, and make all future conversation easier and more cordial. I am not asking to him to surrender his entire position; I am asking him to surrender a point. He should be able to do this without "losing face," and if he does so, I will not gloat over any "victory" in the conversation.Timaeus
August 30, 2013
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G:
IDism is properly understood as a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation and it is not and cannot be a ‘strictly [natural] science.’
Got to love how G makes up is own terms ID ism. really? is that a malady?Mung
August 30, 2013
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niwrad wrote to SonnyE: "If you “do not believe in theism of the Abrahamic sort” but understand that the universe and life have a Designer, then you – aware or not – are directed towards the same One of theisms." Thank you niwrad. I agree and appreciate your proper theistic use of capitalised sign 'Designer'. This is the main point of my long, on-going disagreement with timaeus, and seemingly new disagreement with CD Proponentist: IDism is properly understood as a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation and it is not and cannot be a ‘strictly [natural] science.’ You speak about this plainly, openly, without deceit, pretense or rhetorical spin: Big-D 'Designer,' in whatever Abrahamic language (though you forgot Baha'is) means "directed towards the same One of theisms." So much energy and effort and talent and strife and worry is wasted by IDists like Meyer, Behe, Dembski, Luskin, et al. for not calling IDism for what it actually is but cannot bring itself to be. It is the sophists of the conversation, like timaeus, who needlessly argue against, slyly twist simple logic, or just keep quiet about the main point above. Further above I spoke of "considering a ‘third way’ or ‘third ways’ to productively move the general science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse forward." Do you support this niwrad?Gregory
August 30, 2013
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timaeus' 'perhaps' IDists speak of 'scientific revolution' swing and a miss is merely symbolic of the devious ways that he tries to woo IDists at UD with his rose-coloured glasses. First, he claims he didn't know about all the 'scientific revolution' talk by IDism leaders. *Then* he claims it was an 'understatement,' which would imply he *did* know, but simply 'understated'. So which is true: he did know or he didn't know that IDM leaders at the DI speak openly of IDism as a 'scientific revolution,' which is the main point of this thread, aside from timaeus' attempts at diversion? Did he know about this: “We are in the very initial stages of a scientific revolution,” said Stephen C. Meyer? Probably not. Meyer's is the logic of comradeship "for the renewal of Science and Culture" (though, 'the renewal of' was removed from the DI's CSC because it was too blunt and obviously apologistic), which is obvious given Meyer is the Director of the CSC. But these are the types of things timaeus doesn't speak about while living in a CONTEXT vaccuum about the rise of late 20c 'Intelligent Design' as a 'strictly [natural] scientific' theory. Just 'Generic Design' - y'know, not 'design' by designers that can actually be studied, like normal, intelligent scientists commonly work on/with - but a 'Universalised Designism' with almost no explanatory power that insists on being 'strictly [natural] scientific'. That's rich, folks, a good line for insurance salespersons - "Generic Design, no specifics allowed."[And be sure to flip-flop between 'design' and 'Design' as often as possible to appear two-minded.] "intelligence simply" - yet another great contribution by timaeus! Or how about, 'intelligence on a diet'? Embodied intelligence or unembodied intelligence? Artificial intelligence or natural intelligence? Immature intelligence or mature intelligence? It doesn't matter to timaues. Just intelligence please! "You anti-IDists should stop thinking about the various ways that 'intelligence' is used and just comply to Stephen C. Meyer's 'revolutionary' logic of IDism!" - this is timaeus' way of bully-communicating at UD. Nevertheless, I'm not scared of timaeus' tactics and see through his self-serving rhetoric. These catch phrase chips by timaeus are priceless reminders of how empty IDT's claims are when looked at closely and reflexively by persons not already willfully committed to becoming Expelled Syndrome victims who hide from reality. Given timaeus' 40+ years of reading - what, didn't he start reading until he was 19 yrs old, since we know from when he puffed up his chest to Steve Fuller here at UD claiming condescendingly to be 3 years Fuller's elder, I guess he started reading late for his age? - we should realise that for timaeus, updating and redefining words for new eras is not a serious option for his conservative always backwards-looking mindset. That's probably also why he typically blurs the line between traditional 'design argument(s)' and 'modern' 'Intelligent Design Theory' (which it seems CD Proponentist is confused about too), the former being openly theologically-oriented and the latter claiming to be a 'strictly [natural] scientific' theory by wannabe 'revolutionaries' in the DI and IDist followers. I guess if timaeus had read Dembski's "The Design Revolution" he'd realise that Dembski openly accepts 'one of these things is not like the other ones,' which is the basis for the much-hyped 'strictly [natural] scientific' Design Revolution. But probably it would be too much to expect timaeus to know what he is talking about, given his simple understatement (or now unwound dishonest rhetorical downplaying) that 'perhaps' IDT leaders speak of IDism as a 'scientific revolution,' which actually flies in the face of reality. Of course they do, timaeus, what were you thinking? It is sad but true that timeaus by rhetorical force of personality alone, not by force of sound argument or example, tries to dissuade people at UD from properly and meaningfully distinguishing 'Intelligent Design' from 'intelligent design', 'transcendent Design' from 'mundane design,' and 'non-human-made things' from 'human-made things'. He wants it all conflated and blurred, while banging his generic IDist drum. Why? One answer from timaeus should suffice: "Intelligence simply." So then, "Suppose ID wins..."?Gregory
August 30, 2013
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SonnyE #62 Sorry for the delay. I am the thread-owner but I haven't evidence of your previous comment you speak of (and a fortiori I haven't rejected it). I answer willingly to your polite request:
I think life is full of evidence of intelligent design and that random mutations don’t explain it, but I do not believe in theism of the Abrahamic sort. [...] If possible, I’d like the moderator or thread-owner to make some suggestion of what was objectionable about my previous comment, if anything.
Well, have you noted that in my OP I speak of theism in general terms? Often I use the term "Supreme Being" which is the metaphysical equivalent of the more theological "God" or "Lord". If with "Abrahamic theism" you mean the three traditions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam (in historical order) they are orthodox forms of theistic tradition. Their multi-level teachings were conceived to address different people, in different countries, in different times. Therefore they can contain a lot of materials that are very specific of a geographical, historical and anthropological situation. One can like or dislike them, but a thing is sure: beyond countless differences on the surface, the ultimate deep aim of all orthodox forms of theism is pointing to the Supreme Being, the One. As a traditional dictum says, "The doctrine of Unity is unique". If you "do not believe in theism of the Abrahamic sort" but understand that the universe and life have a Designer, then you - aware or not - are directed towards the same One of theisms.niwrad
August 30, 2013
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You're still a babe sucking at your mother's teat Timaeus.Mung
August 29, 2013
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