Test: If naturalists are right, totalitarian states should be just as creative as free ones

SA, again, your perception of my view or that of responsible exegetes, is mistaken. That starts with the text. In Isa 8:20, the scripture is seen as having its own discernible voice so that one may speak/fail to speak according to it. In Jn 8 & 10, the oral teaching that would be recorded as scripture is a speaking of truth [= that which accurately describes reality] which we may or may not accurately understand, and scripture cannot be broken. The failure in "because I speak the truth, you do not understand" is stark and reflects a commitment to a crooked yardstick which makes one artificially blind to and polarised against truth. If one may wrench scripture, one may also cut a straight furrow with it. Where, the text itself is objective, language is objective, logic is objective, there is sound history that gives reliable circumstantial context and background, the text set in context of the wider book and corpus is there [as opposed to prooftext out of context misreading] and more. This leads to historico-grammatico-contextual interpretation that reckons with genre etc. These, are objective and reckon appropriately with the history of the text from Moses to John and how it has been carried forward in a chain of custody and exegesis since then. These are responsible and significantly objective, not an idiosyncratic process of eisegesis and arbitrariness or whimsy. In that context, much of the work of the Spirit is to lead us to deal with our warping sins, assumptions, attitudes and more. Part of that is indeed the democracy of the dead, in the texts they have left as legacy -- cf. C S Lewis on reading old books. Part is the practice of living community informed by historic community, e.g. the Westminster Confession as referenced, coming from men dead 300 years or so now. None of this (and much more) in the remotest degree could fairly be said to be the opinion that "a subjectivist, individualist view of the scripture can yield authoritative teachings." What is well warranted is what is authoritative, which brings up the challenge of first duties and principles of reason in general, then of handling the scriptures in particular. KF kairosfocus

KF @ 85 Ok, agreed. I was not correct with that. Where we disagree is that a subjectivist, individualist view of the scripture can yield authoritative teachings. Silver Asiatic

PPS: I further note, from the closing words of Peter's theological will:

2 Peter 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Where, from Ac 20, we see:

26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. [--> a mandate for systematic, integrative teaching and for underlying systematic theology] 28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,[e] which he obtained with his own blood.[f] 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified. [--> power of scripture to promote renewal and transformation]

Also in 2 Cor 4, we read:

1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God,[a] we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice[b] cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants[c] for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8 We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

These are the very opposite of a free for all idiosyncratic infer what you will, as you will approach. There is a clear and simple core that -- as it cuts across pre-existing worldviews and cultural agendas -- men are often demonically blind and hostile to. Not, that it is unclear but that it requires repentance and gradual renewal to access. On the other hand, some things are hard to understand and the unstable and unlearned wrench. Where, even from church leadership some pervert and lead astray. So, we see a need for sound interpretation, study and developing knowledge. (And as for, oh you have been taught enough, that is almost not worth mentioning, save to dismiss.) At Bible study and lay sermon level, I laid out approaches here some years ago, as a Christian student leader. kairosfocus

PS: I have a moment, so I clip Westminster Confession:

The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

Where, we may read:

Jn 81 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him [--> but, apparently now rejected him], “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” . . . . 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Jn 10:35 . . . Scripture cannot be broken . . . [--> as Word of God, supreme in authority and reliability] Eph 2:20 . . . built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone [--> in practical terms OT and NT with Gospel as the pivot], 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. [Cf here 2 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.] 2 Tim 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed [--> been properly convinced of, here pistis as credible rhetorical proof], knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings [= Scripture], which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[b] may be complete, equipped for every good work. [--> adequacy of scripture to find salvation and to live it out through transformed, truly wise life] 2 Peter 1:12 . . . I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon [--> this is his theological will, shortly before his execution on trumped up charge of treasonous arson c AD 65], as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. [--> the prophecy by the sea of Galilee] 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things. 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you [ --> orally then now in writing!] the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . . 19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts [--> guide in life and in death, even in the face of demonic persecution and judicial murder], 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. [--> the source of prophecy in particular and a fortiori the scriptures as a whole is not merely human, but primarily Divine] 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man [--> not human initiative], but men spoke from God as they were carried along [--> with typhonic force] by the Holy Spirit.[ESV]

You will see through this that the key points in the Westminster summary are aptly confirmed, much as I have been able to confirm the clauses of the Nicene Creed. This does not mean that teachers, analyses, books and disciplines of study etc are not useful, but it does mean that they are in the end under requirement to line up with the plumbline of scripture. As Isa 8:20 sums up, "To the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." kairosfocus

SA:

sola scriptura teaches you that if you read something in the Bible, then you have the infallible power to interpret it correctly.

Strawman. KF kairosfocus

Bob R

The rules for adding any book to the Tanakh is twofold. One is it must be believed to have been divinely inspired. Two is the original must have been written in Hebrew, which is why the Maccabees is not included. It was not written in Hebrew first. There has been argument regarding being divinely inspired, but it does not matter.

Yes, but you're talking about the rules made by a people who could not recognize the divinity of Christ. They do not know what a divinely inspired text is. They have no authority in these matters. There is no reason for Christians to follow the teachings of the rabbis who rejected Christ. They have not been listening to the voice of God and He ceased giving them divine revelation. Silver Asiatic

Ed George @ 71 You're welcome and there's a reason Judaism does not have a history of proselytizing and forced conversions. Before the laws were given to Moses, 7 laws had been given to Noah. To be a righteous gentile, from a Jewish perspective, one must live by the Noahide laws. They are chosen to be a light unto all nations by teaching the 7 laws to gentiles. The condemnation of homosexuality is not against homosexuals directly, but that actions of homosexuals. All sin comes from acting out in a way not in accordance with God and God sees all sin as the same. There is no greater or lesser sin. Judaism has a forgiving God, which is also seen in Christianity. The death penalty was rarely used and the act of stoning was not taken lightly. It was not left to any one person, but all people and all must agree death is warranted. If even a single person doubted the penalty, it could not be carried out. It was the original jurors. It should shed some light on the verse of letting him without sin cast the first stone. BobRyan

Silver Asiatic @ 73 The Tanach can be spelled another way and still be correct, which is TaNaKh. It stands for Torah, which is the Law and contains the laws. Nevi’im, which is the Prophets. Ketuvim, which is the writings. Matthew is quite clear in the reference to the Torah, which is the Law, and Nevi'im, which is the Prophets. At the time, the Ketuvim was not included in most synagogues. Had the Ketuvim been included, Jesus would have also mentioned the writings. The rules for adding any book to the Tanakh is twofold. One is it must be believed to have been divinely inspired. Two is the original must have been written in Hebrew, which is why the Maccabees is not included. It was not written in Hebrew first. There has been argument regarding being divinely inspired, but it does not matter. Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. BobRyan

Thanks SA. I just wasn’t sure of the context you were basing your conclusion on. Yes, the US is influential, but so are the combined influence of the countries that legalized SSM before the US did. I would argue that the biggest argument for the legalization of SSM in most countries has been the insupportable arguments used against it. As homosexuals are only a small fraction of the population, support for SSM had to be obtained by a very large number of heterosexuals, people who only a decade earlier would have opposed it. In my mind this has been one of the best recent examples of the old adage that the measure of a society is based on how it treats its weakest members. Ed George

EG I was speaking in present tense. Past legislation is irrelevant. The UN is a global promoter. USA has biggest influence there. More importantly, 85% of the U.S. fortune 500 promotes gay marriage worldwide and usually makes denmands for compliance on lbgt rights. The USA is by far the most influential country for this. Silver Asiatic

Perverts "fall in love" with children too. Since when is "being in love" a license to do whatever the hell you want? #DontBeStupid mike1962

SA

The United States is the most significant promoter of gay marriage worldwide, and this all originates from Jewish influence in American government, media and academics.

I am interested how you come to this conclusion (in bold above). 21 o the 30 countries that have legalized SSM did so before the US. The first in 2000 and the US didn’t do it until 2015. Ed George

EG

the person she fell in love with not being allowed into heaven

It's an interesting way to present it. "Falling in love with someone" is one of those things that is sacred in our culture, the truth of which cannot be questioned - sort of the way romance novels teach us. Silver Asiatic

SA

Did she say why she no longer believes that, and what role (if any) she gives to Jesus and His Gospel?

Didn’t ask. Don’t really care. But, if I had to guess, I think it had something to do with her previous religion constantly saying that the person she fell in love with not being allowed into heaven. Ed George

EG

I was surprised to see the rabbi announce the events they had planned for Pride week.

It's interesting and we might be surprised, thinking that Judaism would be opposed to gay marriage. However, on the contrary, it was Jews who really supported and promoted (some argue they were the primary cause of) the legalization of gay marriage.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency came out with an interesting article in 2015 entitled, “Jewish groups celebrate Supreme Court’s legalization of gay marriage nationwide.” In a similar vein, Amy Dean of Tikkun, a Jewish magazine, had this to say about Gay marriage in the United States: “In a few short years, same-sex marriage went from being an untouchable political hot potato to a broadly accepted civil right in eighteen states and the District of Columbia. Jews, and their social justice organizations, helped make that happen. In fact, this magazine was a prophetic voice of marriage equality, supporting same-sex unions in the early 1990s and helping to lay the groundwork for the current wave of victories.” Likewise, Nathan Guttman of the Jewish Daily Forward published an article way back in 2013 entitled, “Jewish Blessings Greet Gay Marriage Ruling.” Jay Michaelson of the same magazine wrote a similar article in 2015: “The Profoundly Jewish Lesson of the Supreme Court’s Gay Marriage Ruling.” Guttman wrote: “Most Jewish communal leaders celebrated the landmark Supreme Court decision striking down the Defense of Marriage Act. The Jewish community, with 81% of support for gay marriage according to public opinion polls, is the constituency most supportive of marriage equality, second only to the LGBT community in its backing of the rights of gays and lesbians to marry.”

The United States is the most significant promoter of gay marriage worldwide, and this all originates from Jewish influence in American government, media and academics. As stated by Jewish leaders themselves, Jews gave us gay marriage. How Jews Brought America to the Tipping Point on Marriage Equality: Lessons for the Next Social Justice Issues Silver Asiatic

Seversky

Did God specifically abolish the requirement to stone to death disrespectful children or adulterers? If He did, then did he also cancel his injunction against homosexual relationships or women speaking in church?

Jesus taught the disciples what the disciplinary norms would be for the new covenant that God gave through the death and resurrection of Jesus. The stoning of adulterers and homosexuals was abolished when Jesus was called to judge the woman caught in adultery. So, the Early Church did not stone adulterers or homosexuals. Adultery and homosexual activity (fornication) however remain condemned as serious sins that end in eternal damnation for those who do not repent and atone for them. Women speaking in Church is a disciplinary norm, still forbidden in many ways (women cannot be ordained as priests or deacons). But Church liturgical disciplines were permitted some variation - and Jesus taught the apostles this. So, the apostles established local churches with different norms. St. Paul's injunction against women preaching is retained today.

Why should there ever have been a need for a New Covenant in the first place?

The old covenant was a preparation. Humanity goes through a process of growth - personal development in knowledge and social development, as one generation hands down wisdom to the next. The people of the old covenant lived in preparation for the Kingdom of the Messiah. Now, we have 2000 more years of wisdom so we continue to develop our moral and spiritual awareness. As we mature, God grants us different regulations. An example of how the Old Covenant was preparation for the new is when the Israelites had to stay in the desert for 40 years before entering the promised land. This was a time of purification and preparation. They were still corrupted by paganism, and the desert purified their souls through repentance and struggle. The time of the Jews to Christ is the same. Purification and struggle. Then the New Covenant. However, we still have purification and struggle as we prepare for Jesus' Second Coming, and for our own Judgement when our short life on earth is over. So, God created human life as an adventure that progresses and develops.

The God of Christianity should not have made any mistakes that needed rectifying.

God loves his people - every one of us. So, He makes mistakes by trusting and caring about us, even when we don't care about Him. That's what love is all about. We trust the person - even when it hurts.

Given the need for a New Covenant, why did this ultimate Lawgiver not rescind the outrageously unjust policy of punishing the descendants of the original offenders in perpetuity?

Well, He did rescind it through Baptism, which removes Original Sin. We inherit the effects of evil that our parents did. We also inherit the effects of the good they did. Adam and Eve gave us a condition of sinfulness in the world. They also gave us life, and they are the parents of Mary and Joseph also - and thus made the Savior's life possible. So, we received good from our first parents, along with the suffering from the evil they did. With Redemption, the sacrament of Baptism removes the effects of Original Sin. Silver Asiatic

BebR

I suggest you brush up on a little bit of Judaism.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll brush up on that. I'll suggest to you, in turn, that you look into the Judaizers - or the heresy of Judaizing, which was condemned from the earliest Christian centuries (as the Ebionites). Judaizing Christians today believe that the ritual, Sabbath and dietary (Kosher) laws are binding. This makes perfect sense because they suffer from the sola scriptura heresy itself, and if you're going to use a private interpretation of the Bible-alone, and reject the teaching of the Church founded by Christ, then why not keep all the Kosher Laws, like the Jews supposedly do?

When the passage refers to not abolishing them, it is in direct reference to both Torah and everything the prophets wrote.

As above, sola scriptura teaches you that if you read something in the Bible, then you have the infallible power to interpret it correctly. This is easily falsified by the number of sola-scriptura Christians who disagree on all matters of doctrine. Quoting snippets of Scripture, outside of the authority of the Church established by Christ (that Church which gave us the Bible in the first place) is an exercise that leads to error and confusion. Thus we have Christians today who think that Jesus did not abolish the Kosher rituals and practices. They are in as much error and falsehood as the Jews and Muslims (other Judaizers) are. Silver Asiatic

Ed G

Secondly, she was Christian before converting, as are my wife and two other children.

Just wondering - at one time in her life she believed that Jesus is the Son of God, Savior - resurrected from the dead, second person of the Trinity. Did she say why she no longer believes that, and what role (if any) she gives to Jesus and His Gospel? Often, Jews dismiss the teaching and life of Jesus as almost entirely false - or at least they have strong opposition to it. From the time of Jesus' life itself, Jews rejected Him. At the time of Jesus' resurrection, rabbis paid the Roman guards to lie and say that disciples came during the night and stole the body of Jesus. Silver Asiatic

Bob

Congratulations. It’s a fascinating religion that has survived despite everything man has thrown at them.

Thanks Bob. What I respect most about it is that it is not a proselytizing religion. I attended a service with my daughter earlier in the fall and I was surprised to see the rabbi announce the events they had planned for Pride week. Ed George

SA

Has she told you why she turned away from your atheism to belief that there is a God?

Firstly, I am not an atheist. Agnostic would be the best description. Secondly, she was Christian before converting, as are my wife and two other children. Ed George

Ed George

My daughter converted to Judaism early this year. I haven’t lost a second’s sleep over it.

Ok, but I will hope that she will gain understanding of Jesus, the Messiah and someday enter the true Church. Has she told you why she turned away from your atheism to belief that there is a God? Silver Asiatic

Sev, an excellent place to begin re-thinking is here:

Jn 7:53 They went each to his own house, Jn 8:1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

Now, apply judicious a fortiori logic. DV, more later. KF PS: When a drunk gets in a car and mows down a mom and dad, crippling children, that is going to have long term consequences on the innocent. Responsibility carries sobering weight. More can be said, but that's a beginning to think about freedom and also about how we all ratify abuse of freedom by our own abuse. kairosfocus

Silver Asiatic Ezekiel 37 11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. This is a direct reference to the rebirth of Israel, which did occur in 1947. There has been no rebirth of any other nation in all of recorded history. Isaiah 66 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. BobRyan

Silver Asiatic @ 62 I suggest you brush up on a little bit of Judaism. The Torah is the law. No one with any understanding of Judaism, today or 2000 years ago, would ever call the Torah the laws. When the passage refers to not abolishing them, it is in direct reference to both Torah and everything the prophets wrote. BobRyan

Ed George @ 63 Congratulations. It's a fascinating religion that has survived despite everything man has thrown at them. BobRyan

Silver Asiatic@ 62

He did not say laws, but Law. The Law (love of God and love of neighbor) does not pass away. But God abolished the ritual laws. St. Paul teaches it. God no longer desires sacrifices of bulls and calves. Jesus is the true sacrifice. The Old Testament is fulfilled in the new. There is no longer Jew or Greek. All are one in Christ (for those who believe). Those who reject Christ (modern day Jews) are in darkness.

Did God specifically abolish the requirement to stone to death disrespectful children or adulterers? If He did, then did he also cancel his injunction against homosexual relationships or women speaking in church? Why should there ever have been a need for a New Covenant in the first place? The God of Christianity should not have made any mistakes that needed rectifying. Given the need for a New Covenant, why did this ultimate Lawgiver not rescind the outrageously unjust policy of punishing the descendants of the original offenders in perpetuity? Seversky

SA

Those who reject Christ (modern day Jews) are in darkness.

My daughter converted to Judaism early this year. I haven’t lost a second’s sleep over it. Ed George

Bob

Jesus himself said he did not come to end the laws.

He did not say laws, but Law. The Law (love of God and love of neighbor) does not pass away. But God abolished the ritual laws. St. Paul teaches it. God no longer desires sacrifices of bulls and calves. Jesus is the true sacrifice. The Old Testament is fulfilled in the new. There is no longer Jew or Greek. All are one in Christ (for those who believe). Those who reject Christ (modern day Jews) are in darkness. Silver Asiatic

BobRyan

Not once does God tell them his covenant ends with the coming of Messiah.

The covenant is fulfilled in the Messiah, the King of the Jews. There is no end date - it is an eternal covenant. People who rejected Jesus have nothing to do with it. Silver Asiatic

Silver Asiatic If the Tanakh stating several times over an everlasting covenant with Israel isn't good enough for you, then how about Matthew from what Christians refer to as the New Testament? Last time I checked, heaven and earth are still around and have not disappeared. Matthew 5 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. BobRyan