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The $68,584 Question

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There is such a thing as a professional “ethicist,” and as of this writing the median annual income of a clinical ethicist is $68,584. Here is one job description for such a position:

Offers guidance to patients, their families, and professional staff on ethical, legal and policy issues and concerns stemming from clinical interactions between health care professionals and patients. Provides guidance to the institutional ethics committee pertaining to policy formulation and educational and case review activities. Develops institutional policies concerning ethical issues such as “do-not-resuscitate” and “withdrawal of life-support”. Requires a master’s degree or doctorate related to health ethics and at least 5 years of experience in the field.

I can understand how a theist who believes in the objective reality of ethical norms could apply for such a position in good faith. By definition he believes certain actions are really wrong and other actions are really right, and therefore he often has something meaningful to say.

My question is how could a materialist apply for such a position in good faith? After all, for the materialist there is really no satisfactory answer to Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question that we have discussed on these pages before. See here for Philip Johnson’s informative take on the issue.

After all, when pushed to the wall to ground his ethical opinions in anything other than his personal opinion, the materialist ethicist has nothing to say. Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness.

I am not being facetious here. I really do want to know why someone would pay someone to give them the “right answer” when that person asserts that the word “right” is ultimately meaningless.

Comments
StephenB:
When giving ethical advice, the atheist cannot say to his paying client, “here is why you should do this.”
The atheist ethicist could ask the client about the client's beliefs about good and bad, right and wrong, and then advise the client to do what is consistent with their beliefs about what is good and bad, right and wrong. Then when asked to justify why they gave the advice they did they could say because it was consistent with what the client believed about what is good and bad and right and wrong. Not sure why that would require any advanced degree though.Mung
September 3, 2014
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Heks said:
Who on earth made that claim? Nobody I saw. The claim is not (and never has been) that non-theists can’t be moral and ethical people. That’s an extreme caricature of the claim. The claim is simply that the atheist materialist, however moral and ethical he may be in practice, cannot provide a satisfactory, objective basis for moral values and duties. Fortunately, there is no rule of nature that requires atheist materialists to live lives that are consistent with their foundational philosophies.
EXACTLY! I was going to write the same thing, but you explained it very well. Some atheists may have a thought out standard by which they seek to live, but I doubt it is very rigid. He knows in his heart that his standard is just a made up arbitrary one so really it is no big deal if he chooses to ignore it or to change it. Plus, I doubt there are many things he really desires to do that end up on his "no-no" list. I would love to hear what atheists think of ridiculing others, gossip, unkind words, rude words, impure thoughts, pride, unforgiveness, drunkenness, adultery, lying, dishonesty, cheating on taxes by not reporting all your income, lying about kids ages for cheap tickets, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. Are these things right or wrong? Why? What does it matter if he breaks his own arbitrary code of conduct? Who does he confess to? Why can't he just change his code of conduct to include the "sin" he committed? Then it is no longer wrong!tjguy
September 3, 2014
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OK, Arcadia_Bogart, I will try to make it plain for you. When giving ethical advice, the atheist cannot say to his paying client, "here is why you should do this."StephenB
September 3, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
I would certainly welcome a clarification from Barry.
I don't see anything at all vague or equivocal about what Barry wrote. What is it that you think needs clarification and why ought Barry provide one? By the way, why don't you take a stab at answering the question he posed in the OP? Acartia_bogart:
Why can’t an atheist accept the job in good faith (ignoring the ‘faith’ concept)?
Shouldn't we ignore the 'good' concept as well? Acartia_bogart:
Why can’t an atheist accept the job?
An atheist could accept the job, but they shouldn't.Mung
September 3, 2014
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Tim. OK, I will play it your way. Why can't an atheist accept the job in good faith (ignoring the 'faith' concept)? Is it because you 'believe' that they can't have ethics and morals that are the equal of those of the average theist? I am an atheist and I will match my ethics and morals up against yours any day, and twice on Tuesday. I might not compare well to Ghandi or the Dhali Lama, but they would never judge my worth based solely on my theology (or lack thereof). Admit it. You are applying your stereotypes (ignorance) of atheists to every individual atheist because you feel that you are superior due to your theology. Do you have any evidence to support this generalization?Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Semantics? Barry did NOT write of qualification. He wrote of acting in good faith. That is the question the material (potential) ethicist has to answer, and, being and ethicist at that pay grade, should be able to answer. I can easily explain why you shouldn't interpret this as "an atheist isn’t capable of doing the job." You are writing about qualifications. Barry is asking for a good faith explanation; that is what this OP is about.Tim
September 3, 2014
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News, if you don't mind me asking, where do you live?Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Acartia-bogart at 9 does approve of lethal injections. Why do I owe myself a chocolate for having guessed that? All the rubbish about "very clear restrictions" has repeatedly been shown to be, well, rubbish. Things are out of control in Holland, for example, because far more people are always wanted dead than want to die. No one bothered to set that woman straight about seniors homes when they could just give her a lethal injection. Where I live that's forbidden (until the "progressives" get elected again). So someone would just have to set her straight about seniors' homes and insist that she at least try respite care for a few days. (The last time I tried that, the person ended up picking out a nice, sunny room for herself five days later and never returned to her basement apartment. ;) ) That is why murder was forbidden in the first place. Not because the "wrong people" might get murdered. Everyone turns out to be the wrong people in the end.News
September 3, 2014
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BA77: "Actually atheists think that they have morals which are above reproach. In fact they think that their morals are better than almighty God’s morals." BA77, I don't presume to know what all born again Christians, Catholics, creationists, Moslems, Jews, or even other atheists think. You must have a very special gift. Was it given by god? Or are you just stereotyping, like Barry would admit, if he was honest (which I think, basically, he is).Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Tim, it must be nice to hide behind symantics. But the post was very clear. Barry could understand why a theist would qualify for this job but that a materialist (CreationistSpeak for atheist, much like 'Darwinist' is CreationistSpeak for anyone who thinks that evolution is real) would be a hypocrit if he applied. Please explain to me how I could interpret this in any other way than that an atheist isn't capable of doing the job. Keep in mind that Robert (a woman's place is in the home) Byers is a theist and I am not. I would certainly welcome a clarification from Barry.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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correction: sorry for the repeat on the Phillip Johnson videobornagain77
September 3, 2014
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as to:
"Barry, please explain to me why a person without any theistic beliefs cannot have any ethics?"
Actually atheists think that they have morals which are above reproach. In fact they think that their morals are better than almighty God's morals. ,,, In fact, one of the most common arguments by atheists against God is the 'argument from evil'. Basically the 'argument from evil' from atheists is best summed up by these following quotes:
“atheists have their theology, which is basically: "God, if he existed, wouldn't do it this way (because) if I were God, I wouldn't (do it that way)." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/creationists_th085691.html "One of the great ironies of the atheist mind is that no-one is more cock-sure of exactly what God is like, exactly what God would think, exactly what God would do, than the committed atheist. Of course he doesn’t believe in God, but if God did exist, he knows precisely what God would be like and how God would behave. Or so he thinks",,," Eric - UD Blogger
In fact, the 'argument from evil' was used by Charles Darwin in his book, 'Origin of Species',,,
Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 Excerpt: The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action;,,, 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html
And the argument from evil continues to be used by Darwinists today,,, . In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses theological argumentation in his book to support Darwinism and invites him to present evidence, any evidence at all, that Darwinism can do what he claims it can:
Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism.
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
In fact, in the twisted world of Darwinian reasoning, Dr. John Avise used the fact that mutations are overwhelmingly detrimental, which is actually a powerful scientific argument against Darwinism, as a theological argument for Darwinism since, according to Darwinian theology, God would never allow such things as detrimental mutations:
“Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens.” John C. Avise - Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design – Pg. 57
I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found:
Mutation total (as of 2014-05-02) – 148,413 http://www.hgmd.cf.ac.uk/ac/
Contrary to what Dr. Avise may believe, such an overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations is NOT a point of evidence in favor of Darwinism! In fact, it is a very powerful scientific argument against Darwinian claims (M. Behe, J. Sanford),,, That this fact would even have to be pointed out to Darwinists is a sad testimony to how warped Darwinian thinking truly is in regards to the science at hand.... In the following quote, Dr. John Avise explicitly uses Theodicy to try to make the case for Darwinism:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter – June 2012 Excerpt: “Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]” – Dr. John Avise – “Inside The Human Genome: A Case For Non-Intelligent Design” http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html
There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. At about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would expect to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
Many more examples of theology parading as science could be brought forth, but the main problem with the argument from evil from Darwinists, besides the sheer hubris of Darwinists presupposing that they have more knowledge than God, is that the argument from evil collapses in on itself. As the following video clearly shows,,,
Student (Albert Einstein) Vs. Professor - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3qjDF9ksJU
,as the preceding video clearly shows, evil cannot exist without an objective standard of good. i.e. evil is a departure from the good way things 'ought' to be. Thus the 'argument from evil' presupposes an objective, 'good', morality to be a real in its premises. Yet atheistic materialism holds that morality is a subjective illusion that emerged from some material basis. Dr. Cornelius Hunter sums up the incoherency inherent in the argument from evil like this,,
“The strength of materialism is that it obviates the problem of evil altogether. God need not be reconciled with evil, because neither exists. Therefore the problem of evil is no problem at all.,,, And of course since there is no evil, the materialist must, ironically, not use evil to justify atheism. The problem of evil presupposes the existence of an objective evil-the very thing the materialist seems to deny. The argument (from Theodicy) that led to materialism is exhausted just when it is needed most. In other words, the problem of evil is only generated by the prior claims that evil exists. One cannot then conclude, with Dawkins, that there is ‘no evil and no good’ in the universe.,,, The fact that evolution’s acceptance hinges on a theological position would, for many, be enough to expel it from science. But evolution’s reliance on metaphysics is not its worst failing. Evolution’s real problem is not its metaphysics but its denial of its metaphysics.,,, Cornelius Hunter – Darwin’s God – pg. 154 & 159
Verse and Music:
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. Blameless - Dara Maclean - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHUEQvP9u94
bornagain77
September 3, 2014
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AB, Stop shifting around. In post #1 you said no ethics, now in post #11 you say no ethical grounding. Barry was clear and we all know what he is talking about. Also, you are mistaken. Your mistake lies in the fact that Barry left plenty of room for ethical grounding. For example, a utilitarianism based on hegemony would be a basis for ethics. Sure, most all of us know that it is a, if I may, "sucky" grounding, but it is still a grounding. I get it. It's no fun getting painted into a corner and finding out that you yourself are holding the brush.Tim
September 3, 2014
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HeKs, did we read the same article? From the OP: "I can understand how a theist who believes in the objective reality of ethical norms could apply for such a position in good faith. By definition he believes certain actions are really wrong and other actions are really right, and therefore he often has something meaningful to say." And, by definition he is implying that a non-theist does not believe that certain actions are right or wrong. He then said: " Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness." Where is the evidence that an atheist believes that there is no ethical difference between one response and another? Just your claim.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Mung: "Your point has nothing to do with the OP. Around here we call that a red herring." How do you figure this? The OP was claiming that a non theist can't have a consistant ethical grounding. I questioned this. How is this a red Clupea? News: " If you believe that secularism is in some way relevant, it is up to you to make the case for it explicitly." No it isn't. The OP brought up the claim that secularists are not qualified to establish policies on ethics so it is up to the OP author to make the case for it explicitly. Which they haven't done. Not by a long stretch.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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@Acartia_bogart #4 You said:
My point is simply that the claim that non theists can’t be moral and ethical is simply a load of excrement that is not supported by any evidence.
Who on earth made that claim? Nobody I saw. The claim is not (and never has been) that non-theists can't be moral and ethical people. That's an extreme caricature of the claim. The claim is simply that the atheist materialist, however moral and ethical he may be in practice, cannot provide a satisfactory, objective basis for moral values and duties. Fortunately, there is no rule of nature that requires atheist materialists to live lives that are consistent with their foundational philosophies.HeKS
September 3, 2014
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News: "Barry, it doesn’t help that – Acartia_bogart’s claims notwithstanding – secular atheists have been vociferous in their support of euthanasia." This, again, is a load of excrement. You word this as if atheists are in favour of Logan's Run style euthanasia. Which is just misrepresenting the facts and fear mongering on the same level as the Obamacare death panels. Many people, not just atheists, are in favour of assisted suicide under very clear restrictions. Those restrictions being that the person involved is the one who makes the decision, that they are mentally capable of making that decision, that they are not coerced or pressured, and that they are aware of all the options (eg., pain management strategies, etc.). Can it be abused, or can individuals slip through the cracks? Of course. And some will. We a know this. But if you can show me any human endeavour that is immune to this risk, I would love to hear about it. The opposition to this is not ethical or moral, it is religious (suicide is a sin and all that crap). We are not talking about putting the elderly on ice floes, we are talking about giving people the free will to make decisions about the end of their lives. And that decision should not be based on an old man's interpretation of a mouldy old book.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Acatia, here is a possible answer to your question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_VYCqCexow&list=PL9boiLqIabFgjeaTcx_LLsXrguKfeqLmnCollin
September 3, 2014
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Acartia-bogart at 4: To the extent that a population is aging, one can afford to assume that violence will decline irrespective of any other factor. If you believe that secularism is in some way relevant, it is up to you to make the case for it explicitly. I need defend nothing, merely point to the Statistics Canada data. (Hint: You made a mistake citing Canada in a dispute with a Canuck; common error, find a different hobby horse to flog next time out.)News
September 3, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
My point is simply that the claim that non theists can’t be moral and ethical is simply a load of excrement that is not supported by any evidence.
Your point has nothing to do with the OP. Around here we call that a red herring.Mung
September 3, 2014
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Acartia_bogart:
Barry, please explain to me why a person without any theistic beliefs cannot have any ethics?
Why should he?Mung
September 3, 2014
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News: "The rate is declining due to the aging of the population." That is just spinning the data. It is true that the population is aging but the decrease in theistic beliefs has increased the most in the younger age groups. Whether it is overshadowed by the aging population, I don't know. But you can't ignore it. My point is simply that the claim that non theists can't be moral and ethical is simply a load of excrement that is not supported by any evidence.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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Barry, it doesn't help that - Acartia_bogart's claims notwithstanding - secular atheists have been vociferous in their support of euthanasia. The Dutch listened to the secularists. Recently a Dutch woman was euthanized because she did not want to go to a "nursing home": http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/08/euthanasia_clinic_reprimanded.php The death doctors received a slap on the wrist for that, presumably so they would know enough to keep it quiet next time. Didn't want to live in a nursing home? I have personally been on the front lines of this specific issue because many seniors, at least where I live, imagine that they are being moved to a living tomb. They are quite surprised when they discover the reality. The claim is usually untrue but promoted by euthanasia advocates, the majority of whom are secular atheists in my experience. For example, I can't begin to take my old man to all the stuff he could do at the local seniors' home. If it's a tomb, it's a pretty busy one - it's crowdsourced care. My point? The believer in nothing (except of course, lethal injections) would be very risky in the position you describe. He can prey on the many common confusions people have about late life lifestyles, to paint a picture of misery that is usually untrue and need never be true, at least in a civilized society. Yes, there comes a point where a given medical intervention will not truly help the patient, young or old. An experienced, traditionally ethical physician will know when that point has been reached. Patients can be kept pain-free and largely discomfort-free anyway, up to the end, if that is the goal (comfort care). But it is only a goal for the traditionally ethical physician, I expect. Others may have other goals. I fear them, with good reason. For the safety of all, DNR and withdrawal of life support need a clear ethical justification in each individual case. They are often the right answer near the end, but not always. What are we trying to protect, to prevent? For example, just because a person is 85, and has a heart attack, doesn't mean a medic should write DNR on the chart. My mom had a serious heart attack at 85. She was too old for surgery, so was treated with medications. We recently celebrated her 90th birthday, when we put on a well-attended gala for her at the retirement home. I am glad that no one was pestering us to get involved with end-of-life decisions. We're just not advanced enough yet here, I guess. ;)News
September 3, 2014
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Acartia-bogart at 1, Canada always had a much lower rate of crime and violence than the United States,irrespective of claimed religious values either way. The historical reasons are interesting, but need not detain us now. Also, all religious measures for Canada should separate secularist Quebec from the anglophone majority for more accurate results. The rate is declining due to the aging of the population. As Canadian demographer David Foot put it: 15 year-olds throw stones; 50 year-olds do not.News
September 3, 2014
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Barry, please explain to me why a person without any theistic beliefs cannot have any ethics? Yes, in a random sampling of atheists you will have a wide variation in ethical understandings. I accept this. But in a random sampling of theists you will get the same thing. Ethics and morals are about an agreed upon set of rules that a society tries to live by. They are not passed down from on high. I will admit that, historically, religions have played a large role in indoctrinating these "rules" into society, but they have also had a history of enforcing them, and not always in a manner that we would accept by today's standards. But, there is no evidence that the decline in religion has resulted in a reduction in ethical and moral behaviour. By most measures, the US is more religious than Canada, but Canada has a much lower rate of crime and violence, even in the bigger cities. And even within Canada, these rates have been declining at the same time that religion has been on the decline.Acartia_bogart
September 3, 2014
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