Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The arsonist’s tale: Misconceptions about intelligent design

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When people examine a new idea for the first time, they often approach it from a basis of older, assumed ideas which cause confusion. They can’t really evaluate the new idea properly until the source of confusion has been identified.

In discussing the intelligent design controversy with people, I sometimes hear the following comment:

If scientists conclude that something is designed, then they are just taking the easy way out, and they won’t be able to find out anything more about it.

The comment – actually, more often a passionate outburst – come at such an oblique angle that it requires a bit of unpacking – all the more so because it is frequently followed up by other, similar ones. On rare occasions, time is permitted for a thoughtful response, so here’s one:

Let us look at a real life example: Suppose we say: If the fire marshall’s office (FMO) concludes that a fatal fire has been set deliberately, then they are just taking the easy way out, and they won’t be able to find out anything more about it.

What’s wrong with this picture? Clearly, the question of whether the fire was set deliberately must first be addressed as a question of fact. There is no other way to determine the origin of the fire than to address it first as a question of fact.

Perhaps the origin cannot be determined at all. But only an intensive investigation can demonstrate that.

If the FMO concludes that the fire is arson, far from losing the ability to find out anything more, it is in a position to focus on key details (Where was the fire started? What accelerant and how much? What was the pattern and timing of spread?).*

(*Many other questions can later be asked by the police – for example, were the charred victims intended to die in the fire? Or was their presence unforeseen and accidental? Or were they unlucky arsonists engulfed by flames?)

Assuming that the FMO can render a decision on these questions based on fact, in what sense would it be taking the easy way out?

Not in any sense I can think of. If the police investigate the circumstances surrounding the fire and lay charges, the FMO must defend its verdict against the lawyer for the accused, who will attempt, as one strategy among many, to cast doubt on the FMO findings, imply that the FMO routinely bungles cases or – in a pinch – that virtually any pattern of accelerants can be accounted for by random events or that it is never possible to determine the cause of a fire with certainty. (The analogies to the intelligent design controversy require no unpacking.)

If her client’s case looks pretty bad, the defense lawyer may even try arguing that arson is a natural cause because people are, well, “just natural animals”. (This defense will work better if her client has looked and acted, throughout the proceedings, like a large rodent crammed into a dress suit, and appears truly unable to grasp the moral significance of the accusations against him.)

At any rate, this analogy from everyday law enforcement helped me think of how to respond to the somewhat confused outburst captured above:

Design must first be addressed as a question of fact. Evidence pro or con can only be acquired by investigation and anywhere design turns out to be a fact, it must be factored into further fruitful investigation.

Should scientists refuse to consider design a possibility because they are “objective”? Well, how about this: Suppose the FMO gets a call from a leading local politician announcing that he wants the arson investigation called off because the FMO has no business assuming that someone might have wanted that building torched?

If the FMO thinks it has reasonable grounds for pursuing its present line of inquiries, should it meekly accept that argument? Should we assume that the politician obstructing the investigation is “objective”? Or rather that he is trying to defend somebody or something? In the same way, materialists attempting to suppress ID-friendly scientists are hardly “objective” in the matter.

The reason the outburst above is confused is that the speaker assumes that design is not a conclusion that can be arrived at by considering evidence and moving on to identify patterns. Underlying that assumption is a lifetime of steady indoctrination by materialism.

Comments
the Pixie: Science can only investigate what it can study, i.e., the natural world. And what ID seeks to investigate exists in the natural world. ID does NOT seek to investigate the supernatural. ID does NOT say anything about the supernatural. Two ID experts testified to that fact during the Dover fiasco. What ID does say is that if the data points to the supernatural/ metaphysical then so be it. That is if science is interested in reality- and if it isn't then it is worthless. And in the end it really has to because every PoV requires something either beyond nature or metaphysical. Not even the Pixie's PoV can escape that fact. And it should be noted that many of the greatest scientists who ever graced this planet used science as a way of understanding the Creator's design/handywork.Joseph
March 28, 2007
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Pixie,
It is all well and good saying we should abandon methodological naturalism, but what does that actually entail?
Heck, science worked fine for years before 1983 when the term "methodological naturalism" was coined by Paul de Vries in its modern form. There are other variants of naturalism, you know. Or, actually, I'm guessing you don't know... I don't see the big deal about making a demarcation between "supernatural" and "natural". After all, the basic definition is "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural". But the problem is that the word "supernatural" is also used to refer to ghosts, goblins, and other things that are unlikely to exist in reality. So that's why Bill prefers to ask "what is the nature of nature". That being the case perhaps the best way to describe the problem is by asking "how might science go about extending nature in a systematic manner?". Let's say I'm looking at the universe. I posit the supernatural--that is, what is the superset of the known natural--explanation as being a whole set of multiple universes spawning new universes through inter-dimensional friction or something. I just posited the supernatural; am I now stuck based upon Pixie's assertions? No, my hypothesis might predict that our universe display certain characteristics. So I go about looking to see if the universe does indeed possess those characteristics. Unfortunately ID doesn't possess the ability to pinpoint a Designer. ID is about Design Detection; not DesignER Detection. If the Designer(s) do indeed exist "above or beyond what is natural" then just as in the "multiple universe" example we'll have to examine the objects at hand--designed objects, in this case--in order to infer what we may about the Designer(s) through the embedded characteristics. For example, in regard to SETI, triangulation along with red-shifting and the nature of the communication method's speed in hard vacuum might give us information about "where and when". If the contents of the message itself can be deciphered we might even know "who". Let's look at the front-loading hypothesis; perhaps there is an internal clock to such mechanisms that could also give us a general idea about "where and when". I'm sure many Christians would be disappointed if there is a trademark containing "Property of Universal Seeding and Farming Corporation" but I doubt we'd find something like that anyway... Or the Designer(s) could be located within known nature. Or by further investigation we discover how to interact with the superset of nature. Although ID proponents like John Davison believe that the Designer(s) are dead. But the main point is that investigation wouldn't be halted by ID.Patrick
March 28, 2007
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Pixie, You are presenting bogus arguments. By believing in God and believing He had some input to this world you in no way limit any scientific endeavor. There is nothing that cannot be investigated including voodoo. The only result is that you may never find an answer to some problems but we will not know which ones necessarily before hand. By believing that God had no input you may eliminate a lot of potential research options. If you believe in God, then everything is on the table including naturalistic mechanism of the origin of life and Darwinian evolution. By not believing in God you limit the number of potential options to investigate. For example, if life was designed then we may expect other things to be consistent with that which would not be allowed in a purely naturalistic framework. By taking a design paradigm into biology one may research far more than by taking a strictly naturalistic paradigm. Believing there is a God does not hamper science in any way. No, it is the elimination of God that limits enquiry.jerry
March 28, 2007
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Pixie, What difference would it make if rejected methodological naturalism for a scientific methodology that did not decide, a priori, the metaphysical status of the universe? The first priority of science ought to be seeking to discover THE TRUTH. Once that is RE-established, I am sure we can think of all kinds of creative ways to investigate the intelligently designed entities we find in nature!KMO
March 28, 2007
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Me: "Science can investigate design, it cannot investigate supernatural design." Phevans: "Why not? The ID position is that science is failing because of its materialist (== non-supernatural) standpoint. If, as IDists claim, science can accommodate non-materialist explanations, then it can certainly investigate supernatural design." KMO: "It is not that science cannot “investigate” supernatural design, as you note, it is only that science, as done under the blinding veil of methodological naturalism, is incapable of concluding the correct cause of a particular design, if in fact the cause is “supernatural.” " If it happens to be the case that something is the product of supernatural creation, then, yes, science will be blind to that. Science investigates what science can investigate. Science can only investigate what it can study, i.e., the natural world. And I would say it has done that with great success (that does not mean it is always right, but is to counter Phevans that science is failing). It is all well and good saying we should abandon methodological naturalism, but what does that actually entail? Can anyone tell me how science would set about investigating the supernatural? How would you go about determining how God performs miracles, or what ghosts are made of, or how voodoo magic works?The Pixie
March 28, 2007
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Borne, yet Davies also says he sees no reason to invoke design (at least a supernatural act) to solve the OOL problem. See here: http://www.astroseti.org/davieseng.php Jerry, I would like to win the origins debate this afternoon, not ten years from now as you suggest. But what I would like and what is likely to happen rarely coincide. That is the price I pay for swimming against the cultural current. Nevertheless, I think I am not only right, but (especially on OOL issues) self-evidently right. But being right and being in the majority are also not always coincidental, at least in the short run. I am less interested in short term success than in resisting the temptation to follow the herd just because that is easiest thing to do. I also think it is is misleading to extrapolate from your personal experiences and prejudices about the meaning of the polls to general propositions. TerryL, love your joke.BarryA
March 28, 2007
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Jerry: "The best bet is a well reasoned argument before the Supreme Court...." One of the most foolish ideas of the past decade is that the courts can decide what is science. The courts are necessarily the venue for settling disputes (like what will we teach in public schools), but jurists are not scientists. First, ID will not be stopped by a court decision - it will stop if and when it runs out of intellectual steam. Second - a close corollary - ID will not be helped by a court decision. If it does not yield useful ideas it will wither away despite what Nine Black Robes declare.PayingAttention
March 28, 2007
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Muddle-headed thinking does no good. I reference the joke/analogy TerryL cites (at #23 above) about looking for keys under the street light. The joke supposes that the man knew where he dropped his keys, and is absurdly looking elsewhere for them. The reality of science is more akin to a man who does not know where he dropped the keys. They may be near the light, or down the street, or in the dark alley he walked thru. This is important because it links to the comment at #20 - BarryA highlighted the provisional nature of science. As long as we agree that the keys *might* be near the streetlight, we are granting that it is reasonable for materialists to stay where they think the light is good. But when they say we shouldn't look in the "dark alley" of design, we can just as reasonably say that we might find our keys there. Saying that others are absurd and their efforts a joke is accepting the false dichotomy - and that error will bite you.PayingAttention
March 28, 2007
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Barry, I disagree with your comment "Don’t talk to me about whether ID is succeeding based on some blogger’s post last week." I know no one who accepts ID except for my wife and I and that is really based on the vacuousness of Darwinism and religious beliefs. It is off the table even with my children. My daughter who teaches science rolls her eyes when ever I mention evolution and she and her family go to church every Sunday. Anytime the topic is broached you feel like you have to explain away why you are not some wacko. People on this site come from different parts of the country and live in different echo chambers and the one I am most exposed to considers doubts on evolution as parts of the Looney Tunes crowd. Read the reactions in the major conservative blogs when Bush said "Teach the Controversy" In the liberal blogs they were jubilant because they knew it would paint conservatism with pseudo-science. In nearly every conservative blog they were angry he said it. Tell me where there is a blog with any following that thinks ID is true? It is not just one blog last week. Now we know what the real pseudo-science is but in public opinion polls I doubt most will accept more than God had a special roll in creating man because that is what every organized religion says. But after that I am not sure what people will say. Maybe in fundamentalist Christian religions there is a strong belief but I have not noticed anywhere personally. My daughter has story books for her children that teach about Noah's Ark but she does not believe that. She thinks it absurd and so do I. It is like teaching your children about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Nice stories that make life better but not necessarily the truth. When you grow up you won't believe it but it makes for nice memories. I prefer to win the battle in the next 10 years not wait several generations for it to succeed. As long as ID is tied to YEC there is not much chance. The best bet is a well reasoned argument before the Supreme Court that disavows any connection to either YEC and emphaiszes the obvious materialistic anti-religious objectives of Darwinism and limits the discussion to the critical analysis of the mechanisms of evolution. From what I had heard a little while after Dover there was such a move that was well financed and willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court. I have not seen it recently so maybe it died.jerry
March 28, 2007
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I like the way the situation is described by Davies:
"The main reason why the origin of life is such a puzzle is because the spontaneous appearance of such elaborate and organized complexity seems so improbable. In the previous chapter I described the Miller-Urey experiment, which succeeded in generating some of the building blocks of life. However, the level of complexity of a real organism is stupendously greater than that of mere amino acids. Furthermore, it is not just a matter of degree. Simply achieving a high level of complexity per se will not do. The complexity needed involves certain specific chemical forms and reactions: a random complex network of reactions is unlikely to yield life. The complexity problem is exacerbated by the mutual functional interplay between nucleic acids and proteins as they appear in Earthlife. Proteins have the job of catalyzing (greatly accelerating) key biochemical processes. Without this catalysis life would grind to a halt. Proteins perform their tasks under the instructions of nucleic acid, which contains the genetic information. But proteins are also made by nucleic acid. This suggests that nucleic acid came first. However, it is hard to see how a molecule like RNA or DNA, containing many thousands of carefully arranged atoms, could come into existence spontaneously if it was incapable, in the absence of proteins, of doing anything (in particular, of reproducing). But it is equally unlikely that nucleic acid and proteins came into existence by accident at the same time and fortuitously discovered an efficient symbiotic relationship. The high degree of improbability of the formation of life by accidental molecular shuffling has been compared by Fred Hoyle to a whirlwind passing through an aircraft factory and blowing scattered components into a functioning Boeing 747. It is easy to estimate the odds against random permutations of molecules assembling DNA. It is about 10^40,000 to one against! That is the same as tossing a coin and achieving heads roughly 130,000 times in a row."
- Davies P.C.W.*, "Are We Alone?: Philosophical Implications of the Discovery of Extraterrestrial Life," Penguin: London, 1995, pp.18-19 Too bad most Darwinists are never able to think things through like this. I like Davies' term "organized complexity". A nice addition to irreducible and specified.Borne
March 28, 2007
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Actually, I believe the best counter to the argument, “If we assume ‘God did it,’ we stop science!” is that history has continually and endlessly refuted it. Medical research didn’t sit still waiting for Darwin. Those early researchers “knew” God did it, and were nonetheless consumed with the desire to understand how the human body worked. Newton “knew” Got created the universe; that did not stop him from try to understand and codify the laws of physics. Indeed, many early scientific discoveries were only possible because those researching them assumed such laws must exist, that God would have created an orderly and understandable universe. I am an engineer. One reason I am is because as a child I loved to tear things apart and understand how they worked. I knew they were designed – be it an engine, a telephone, or a telescope – but that didn’t stop me from a thirst to know how they worked, OR how to build one myself. This really is one of the weakest arguments against ID there is, since it has been patently proven to be false over and over again for thousands of years. The only one arguably weaker is the “God wouldn’t have designed it that way” argument.sabre
March 28, 2007
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Wholly naturalistic evolutionary theory is a joke. Not LIKE a joke. It IS one. In fact, it's this one: A guy is walking down the street at night when he sees an old man under a streetlight scouring the sidewalk. The guy walks up to the old man and says, "Sir, did you lose something?" The old man replies, "Yep, sonny, I lost my car keys down the block and so I'm looking for them under this lamp." Confused, the guy says, "But if you lost your keys down the block, why are you looking for them over here?" To which the old man responds, "The light's better over here!" Mind you, the light of naturalistic materialism is indeed illumanitive. What it reveals, it reveals well. But to say that if the car keys are to be found at all, they will be found under this particlar light and no other, is, in all likelihood, to say that the keys will never be found. But if the guy runs off to look for the car keys under the light of design, I suppose the old man will accuse him of "not being scientific." Riiiiiiiiight...TerryL
March 28, 2007
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Good post O’Leary. I think there are two good ripostes to the “science stopper” argument, and your post demonstrates both of them. The argument from analogy to known acts of agency (and there are many other analogies we can come up with. See, e.g., https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/indian-of-the-gaps) is very powerful. Also, it is important to point to the provisional nature of scientific inquiry. In other words, all scientific conclusions are provisional. The FMO’s conclusion does not settle the matter. His conclusion of “arson” does not stop the defense lawyer from arguing “lightning.” Similarly, Researcher Smith’s conclusion of “design” in no way stops Researcher Jones from continuing to search for an unguided naturalistic explanation that fits the data better. In response to the comments about public opinion of ID, we should keep in mind that, as Denyse says, the success of the ID movement is not gauged in the short run. Yes, ID is in one sense an ancient concept. But the modern movement really dates from about 20 years ago. Don’t talk to me about whether ID is succeeding based on some blogger’s post last week. Talk to my grandchildren and great-grandchildren 50 or 75 years from now. Then you may get a glimmering of whether ID is going to catch hold for the long run. For now, we should comfort ourselves with two thoughts. One, the public really is on our side. Poll after poll after poll shows that overwhelming majorities of the public understand intuitively that the materialistic origins myth is not satisfactory. Two, truth exists independently of whether our rigidly orthodox materialist friends believe it or not. They may try to suppress it on religious grounds (their materialist religion, I mean), but in the long run it will out despite their bests efforts.BarryA
March 28, 2007
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Joseph: "How do you know whether or not it is supernatural design until it is investigated? And then once supernatural is determined via vigorous scientific investigation wouldn’t it be a little late to stop it?" Absolutely! That's exactly what I'm saying! The investigation has been ongoing for several decades. Either we've identified design, in which case it's time to move on to designer, or maybe there's no design to identify? "Who set the fire is usually separate from arson determination and how, although how may be figured out during the determination process." As I said above - as scientists we have to act as fire department, police, and prosecutor. Who else will do it? "The engine being “knackered”- fix it. That does not require knowing who “knackered” it or “why”. How it was knackered may be determined during the repair." But to repair it you need to understand the motivations, techniques, and intent of the designer and manufacturer (although not the identity in this case). "It appears you just do not understand the basic premises of detecting and studying the design in question." How so? I'm explicitly divorcing the identification of design from the further study it engenders. "And what does the stance of saying “it evolved” tell us? Just curious… " Nothing. But in addition there's a proposed how (RM + NS) and why (survival pressure), whether or not you agree with it.Phevans
March 28, 2007
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The whole claim that design by a supernatural being is outside science is nonsense. Scientists are out there proposing all sorts of causes outside of our universe for our universe, so why not another. String theory and branes are an example. No, the only consistent thing underlying the claim that we cannot make reference to the supernatural is the opposition to organized religion. It is so blatantly obvious that it embarrasing when someone brings it up. They just want to rule out organized religion and in Western Civilization, they especially want to rule out Christianity. In the United States they want to marginalize Conservative Christians. While I disagree with YEC and the basis for their positions, I recognize that they are the main objective in this argument and how ludicrous this particular point is. There is nothing else behind the specious claim that science cannot consider the supernatural. So anyone claiming it is just repeating this silly cliché.jerry
March 28, 2007
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mgarelick: We don’t know that a creator/designer of cellular life, for example, exists,... We know that living organisms exist. We then put that in cotext with the options available that can account for that existence. ... and any inference from evidence of design or purposeful construction of a cell is impossible to evaluate because we know nothing about such a process. We do have knowledge of how intelligent agencies design things. We do have direct evidence of planning. We have experience with information rich systems. We have experience with command and control systems. And we can couple that with our knowledge and experience of what nature, operating freely, can do.Joseph
March 28, 2007
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Pixie posted, "If scientists conclude that something is designed, then they are just taking the easy way out, and they won’t be able to find out anything more about it.” It is not the design conclusion that stops science, it is the supernatural design conclusion. Science can investigate design, it cannot investigate supernatural design. " However, design is design is design, regardless of whether that design is due to "natural" or "supernatural" causes. It is not that science cannot "investigate" supernatural design, as you note, it is only that science, as done under the blinding veil of methodological naturalism, is incapable of concluding the correct cause of a particular design, if in fact the cause is "supernatural." It is likely, there are no necessary and sufficient empirical distinguishing characteristics between "natural ID" and "supernatural ID." Therefore, if science is unable to define the intelligent designing cause, why should the YEC'ist be banned from the game? It is not the YEC'ist who has handicapped him or herself by saying they are incapable of postulating a workable theory for who the Intelligent Designer is.KMO
March 28, 2007
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This looks like a good spot to put in another plug for a look at panspermia: http://www.panspermia.org/ There is a recent article linked (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2007/319/4)with yet another example of evolutionary biologists being surprised by actual findings in nature. " "I was quite excited by this," says John Coffin, a leading retrovirologist at Tufts University in Boston, Massachusetts. "All retroviruses are very old, despite what many card-carrying evolutionary biologists have been saying.""dacook
March 28, 2007
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Denyse: Good post with a good analogy extended. The politician at the end helps point out the unfortunate nature of some self-proclaimed authorities in the debate.Eric Anderson
March 28, 2007
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How do you know whether or not it is supernatural design until it is investigated? And then once supernatural is determined via vigorous scientific investigation wouldn't it be a little late to stop it? As anyone knows even the materialistic anti-ID position requires either something beyond nature or the just as metaphysical "the universe 'just is'". Phevans: But isn’t taking a stance of “we do not try to understand / identify the designer” equivalent to the authorities saying “yep, it was a set fire, we’re not interested who dunnit” or your car mechanic saying “yep, that engine’s knackered, no idea why”? Wow that is just whacked! Who set the fire is usually separate from arson determination and how, although how may be figured out during the determination process. The engine being "knackered"- fix it. That does not require knowing who "knackered" it or "why". How it was knackered may be determined during the repair. It appears you just do not understand the basic premises of detecting and studying the design in question. And what does the stance of saying "it evolved" tell us? Just curious...Joseph
March 28, 2007
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ThePixie: "Science can investigate design, it cannot investigate supernatural design." Why not? The ID position is that science is failing because of its materialist (== non-supernatural) standpoint. If, as IDists claim, science can accommodate non-materialist explanations, then it can certainly investigate supernatural design. Of course, if research indicates that aliens dunnit, then it's still explicable with materialist science :)Phevans
March 28, 2007
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"If scientists conclude that something is designed, then they are just taking the easy way out, and they won’t be able to find out anything more about it." It is not the design conclusion that stops science, it is the supernatural design conclusion. Science can investigate design, it cannot investigate supernatural design.The Pixie
March 28, 2007
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"If scientists conclude that something is designed, then they are just taking the easy way out, and they won’t be able to find out anything more about it." Of course, if an object really is designed, it would be a waste of effort, and pointless, to spend time figuring out how it came about by chance, time that would be better put to use understanding more about the object itself. It is fortunate that most scientists dealing in biology, conciously or unconciously, understand this, and spend most of their time on the latter. This is in contrast to geology, where you actually can figure out how things can come into existance through natural processes, and time devoted to understanding those processes has actually produced more than fanciful stories.SCheesman
March 28, 2007
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There are at least two major flaws in the arsonist analogy. 1) We know that there are arsonists; our inferences from evidence of arson are reliable we know something about what happens when someone sets something on fire. We don't know that a creator/designer of cellular life, for example, exists, and any inference from evidence of design or purposeful construction of a cell is impossible to evaluate because we know nothing about such a process. Which leads to the second flaw: 2)
If the FMO concludes that the fire is arson, far from losing the ability to find out anything more, it is in a position to focus on key details (Where was the fire started? What accelerant and how much? What was the pattern and timing of spread?).
With respect to design or creation of organisms, what is the next step after inferring design? Who is trying to "find out anything more," and how are they, or would they be, going about it? Is Dembski's definition ("Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as the result of intelligence.") accurate, i.e., is there any "study" beyond the determination of design?mgarelick
March 28, 2007
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I absolutely agree. But isn't taking a stance of "we do not try to understand / identify the designer" equivalent to the authorities saying "yep, it was a set fire, we're not interested who dunnit" or your car mechanic saying "yep, that engine's knackered, no idea why"? The impression I got was that there are plenty of clear examples of design. Isn't it now time to start thinking about whether it was God, aliens, or Others(tm)? What evidence is there for each? If design is imperfect, does that imply that it wasn't God? If it is perfect, does that prove God' existence? Aren't these questions far more interesting and relevant than just *whether* something was deigned?Phevans
March 28, 2007
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Pevan: IMHO, evidence of design is the relatively boring bit - the who, how, and why are of far more interest. Again- Reality demonstrates the ONLY way to determine the "who, how and why", in the absence of direct observation or designer input, is by studying the event/ object in question. And no, determining design is not boring at all. It may be tedious but it is very necessary. And exciting because then it opens a whole new door to explore. IOW determining design is the impetus for futher research in the quest to perhaps answer the "who, how and why". But reality also slaps us with disappointments. We do not always catch the arsonist or murderer. And the more complex the design the more it takes just to try to understand it.Joseph
March 28, 2007
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My apologies but "guilt by false association" is also a stupid stance. In the end there is only ONE reality behind our existence. And science seeks to understand that reality. Creationist organizations such as AiG and ICR make it clear they are not the same as Intelligent Design. IDists make it clear ID is not based on any religious doctrine nor does it require a belief in any "God". And reality also says it is a good thing to question Common Descent beacause that same reality has hidden that elusive magical genetic secret that would demonstrate the physiological and anatomical changes required* are even possible. Then one has to consider all the scientific data and inferences from "The Privileged Planet". These demonstrate that the evidences for ID extend well beyond IC and CSI in biology. IOW if the universe was designed for scientific discovery then it would also need able observers to do that discovering. Why are we the only known planet or Moon that has observers and scientifically illuminating total solar eclipses (along with an atmosphere that allows for the observation)? I have many disagreements with religions but I will NOT let that cloud my view of reality. Those who do have their own issues and should discuss them with someone qualified to understand them (the issues). *If all of the diversity of living organisms owed their collective common ancestry to some (unknown) population(s) of single-celled organisms that just happened to have the ability to imperfectly self-replicate and metabolize.Joseph
March 28, 2007
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Denyse: "Re a poll, I suppose you’d have to ask people if they would participate and see what happens." That's what I was hoping to do, at least initially, with that comment ;) I'm genuinely interested in the wide range of theories and opinions amongst ID supporters - the community is a lot more diverse than most people think. I know picking the right questions might be hard but I guess there's only so far you can go - even something like ranking (say, from 1 to 5) how far you agree with statements like "all living organisms are descended from a common ancestor" is open to debate ;) R.e. your parable above, I think the criticism generally applied about the "easy way out" is aimed less at finding the evidence of ID, and more at the stated disinterest in seeking the identity of the designer. IMHO, evidence of design is the relatively boring bit - the who, how, and why are of far more interest. In an investigation, scientists have to play the role of the fire department, the police, and the prosecution lawyer - finding out that the fire was indeed deliberately set is only a first step towards the much more important areas of whodunnit and why :)Phevans
March 28, 2007
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08:08 AM
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Jerry and Phevan, Jerry: Thanks for raising an interesting and timely question. I appreciate it. That said, I don't agree that ID would be better accepted if the ID guys blew off the YEC guys. To a materialist, ID would be "anti-science" if YEC had never existed, because a materialist understands science as applied materialism. In my little parable above, the materialist is like the defense lawyer trying to get Ratcliffe off the hook. She espouses any position whatever on the fire, tandem or seriatim, except that Ratcliffe dunit and knew he dunit. That can never be, no matter what evidence is assembled. Consider me as an example: I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from YEC. I'm not even an ID supporter in the conventional sense. That is, I don't know whether current ID hypotheses are the correct way to understand the large amount of information in life forms that is obviously not adequately accounted for by Darwinian fairy tales. So I describe myself as a post-Darwinist. There is considerable and mounting evidence that the materialism that Darwinism supports is not true, either. But determining what is true could take decades or centuries. The ID guys are making a start. I don't have a science background, so I do not attempt to evaluate their assumptions in technical detail. My main stake in this controversy is to promote a more responsible debate, less dependent on the US culture wars. But if you think for a moment that I am less likely to be attacked by materialists, Darwoids, et cetera, on that account, well, google my name and see what you come up with. I am a traditional Catholic, so I don't even interpret the Scriptures in any way similar to the usually fundamentalist YECs. If I started a row with YEC, it would have to be over Scriptural issues as I have no familiarity with the technical issues. I am not a trained theologian either, but many years of Bible reading and Bible study offer some modest benefits. Thus, I would have a big fight on my hands with members of another communion that would serve no purpose except to divide Christians. Apart from that, the reality is that all non-materalists have something in common that they do not share with materialists. I think that ID types of whatever flavour would do well to keep that in mind. Phevan: Re a poll, I suppose you'd have to ask people if they would participate and see what happens. You might set up a blog for the purpose and invite contributors whose identity can be confirmed.* One caution is that it takes some study to determine the questions whose answers would yield useful information (which I assume you've done or are doing). For example, I remember a historian of science who once tried to get me to post on the Post-Darwinist what he assumed to be the positions of various ID types - I guess in an effort to draw them out. I wrote to them first, and a number wrote back and said, in essence, "No, that's not what I meant at ALL." I didn't publish the historian's guesses, and he was a bit put out with me. But what could I do? I can't publish stuff I know is false. My other suggestion would be to interest a social scientist in doing a more scientific poll on the actual beliefs of ID types who meet previously developed criteria as opinion leaders, criteria that - ideally - have been used in other studies of social influence (degrees, books published, numer of mentions in peer reviewed or popular literature, for example). Indeed, I see the actual study of these questions as a promising development in a field heretofore dominated by conspirazoid cranks, for whom I have no time and little patience. *Use the moderator keys early and often if you are spammed by Internet Darwinists, who usually have much more time on their hands than the regular type and proportionately less to offer your blog readers.O'Leary
March 28, 2007
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“Sheesh. What a stupid argument.” I agree dacook. It’s no wonder ID has become such a thorn in the side of Darwinists when this is the best argument they can come up with. Personally, I’d be embarrassed to use an argument of this low caliber. But then again, shame and humility can mean anything you want it to in a Darwinist world.shaner74
March 28, 2007
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