Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Blind Watchbreaker would dispose of lunches even if they were free — mootness of anti-NFL arguments

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Our colleague Elizabeth Liddle has described the process of human design as trial and error, tinkering and iteration. Like Dawkins, she has argued nature (like human designers) is able to construct biological designs via trial and error, tinkering and iteration. However, when nature is properly compared and contrasted with the way humans go about creating designs, it is apparent Dawkins’ claim of a blind watchmaker is false.

I refer to Elizabeth’s description because she articulated some aspects of the blind watchmaker hypothesis better than Dawkins, but in so doing actually helped highlight why Dawkins’ blind watchmaker is refuted by the evidence.

[this is a follow up post to Selection falsely called a mechanism when it should be called an outcome]

THE CHALLENGE OF OOL AND SUFFICIENT COMPLEXITY FOR SELECTION TO WORK
Darwinists will often say, “Origin-of-life (OOL) is a different issue than biological evolution”, to which I say “fine, so how again will mindless chemical soups construct a blind watchmaker in the first place?” Margulis suggests the step from dead chemicals to an evolvable cell is more difficult than from a primitive cell to a human.

Hence, as long as OOL remains unsolved, the question of mindless origins remains unsolved, and in the scheme of things, demonstrating mindless OOL is at least as great a problem if not a greater problem than demonstrating mindless biological evolution.

When we see a dead organism, we see how the biological chemicals evolve — they evolve farther from life not closer too it. A dead cell will have better biological materials in it than all the world’s best OOL labs can synthesize from scratch, and yet, a dead cell evolves away from life, not toward it.

Even Darwin himself conceded the first life was a created, not evolved.

the first creature, the progenitor of innumerable extinct and living descendants, was created.

Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently created. To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator,

Charles Darwin
Origin of Species
Chapter 14

Genetic algorithms are put forward as evidence for Darwinian evolution. But for Genetic Algorithms to create novel designs, consider that at a bare minimum one needs electricity, transformers, transistors, VLSI circuits, chip makers, computer factories, computers, memory banks, operating systems, machine language, assembly language, compilers or interpreters, compilable and semantically sensible programs to implement the Genetic Algorithm, etc. Genetic algorithms are trivial in complexity compared to the collective societal complexity required to make the computer genetic algorithm possible in the first place. For genetic algorithms to work in human affairs, they need intelligence, hence GAs are anything but evidence of blind mindless processes.

Would I say that a mindless printer printing a document is evidence that mindless forces can create literature from scratch, or a video game creating novel adventures for gamers evidence that mindless forces can create intelligently designed stories from scratch? No, because printers and video games need intelligence to create them in the first place. So Darwinists shouldn’t be putting forward GAs as evidence that intelligence is not needed for the emergence of complexity. If we were fair in applying the analogy of man-made GAs, printers, and video games to biology, the fact that these systems need a huge amount of intelligently designed complexity to implement them suggests that even for Darwinian evolution to take place, there needs to be a substantial amount of intelligent design.

NATURE DISPOSES OF LUNCHES VIA MASS EXTINCTION AND SELECTIVE EXTINCTION
Dembski and Marks argue that mindlessly formed fitness functions perform no better than chance on average unless the fitness functions are intelligently designed and the search space has special properties making it amenable to selection. For example, the travelling salesman problem can be solved via genetic algorithms, but long passwords, complex encryption cannot be. But even in the case of the travelling salesman problem, the genetic algorithm cannot be haphazardly slapped together, it needs intelligent design. These limitations on genetic algorithms are described by the No Free Lunch (NFL) theorems.

But even supposing lunch is free, nature disposes of free lunches in the form of mass extinction in the past and selective extinction in the present. See: The price of cherry picking for addicted gamblers and believers in Darwinism.

We know of mass extinction in the past. Raup estimates the following:

Approximately 250,000 fossil species have been cataloged. According to Raup’s figures (based on estimates of average species longevity and standing diversity over the age of the earth), between 5 and 50 billion species may have lived during earth’s long history, of which at most 40 million or so exist today.

Raup

Though the 55 billion figure seems ridiculously inflated to me, there is little question of mass extinction in the past. In recent times, and in the near future, the score sheet for Darwinism in terms of appearances (wins) and disappearances (loss) of species is:

Wins: 0
Losses: thousands
Net: -thousands

The empirical evidence says even if lunches were free, nature would eventually dispose of them anyway (see: Death of the Fittest), hence not only are Darwinists up against the ropes because of NFL theorems, even if Darwinists found a way to weasel some credibility for Darwinism through extreme deviation from expectation of NLF (see here, here, here, here ) these deviations would still be moot, as evidenced by nature disposing of the lunches it has…

Genetic algorithms where complexity is gradually eliminated and all the creatures go extinct would seem to be a more accurate model of biological reality rather than Avida and Weasel, but such reality-based simulations are dismissed by Darwinists unless of course they are arguing in favor of conservation and eugenics and against anthropogenic global warming.

SELECTIVELY DISADVANTAGED DESIGNS
Related to mass extinction and selective extinction, is the problem of selectively disadvantaged designs.

Broken parts in anti-biotic resistant bacteria, blindness in cave fish, sickle cell anemia, etc. are examples of how nature destroys designs rather than creating them. As Behe pointed out in a peer-reviewed paper, the first rule of adaptive evolution is destruction of functioning designs, not creation of them.

Nature is under no obligation to preserve designs, and can be seen to actively destroy them. Like a boat in dire straights, the crew will sometimes jettison the cargo in order to adapt to the environment. So it is with natural selection, designs are often disposed of in exchange for reproductive success. Expediency takes priority over innovation. Free lunches are disposed of even when generously available.

PARTIAL OR FAILED DESIGNS ON THE ROAD TO SUCCESSFUL DESIGNS
Partially formed ideas can persist in the mind or workshop of the designer. Even failed prototypes are informative to the designer as to which design route not to take in the next iteration. Ill-formed designs in the mind of a designer do not immediately terminate the possibility of further improvement of the design. The ability of a design to persist even when it is dysfunctional is crucial to the design process.

But nature is no so kind with dysfunctional designs. In nature, especially if a function is vital, partially formed or failed variants are dispensed with. Variants could be lethal to the organism, thus natural selection rather than fostering innovation, precludes it. As has been said by other scientists:

many genomic features could not have emerged without a near-complete disengagement of the power of natural selection

Michael Lynch
opening, The Origins of Genome Architecture

and

a relative lack of natural selection may be the prerequisite for major evolutionary advance

Mae Wan Ho
Beyond Neo-Darwinism

and

The internal contradiction in its [natural selections’] major theoretical cornerstone — Fisher’s fundamental theorem

traits having been subjected to heavy selection pressures, because of their importance in the lives of the organisms, should be less variable than less important traits….
traits that have been most important in the lives of organisms up to this moment will be least likely to be able to evolve further!

Stanley Salthe
Critique of Natural Selection

As Stephen Gould wisely said, “what good is half a wing?” Non-functioning wings ought to be a liability that selection would eliminate. The false presumption by Dawkins is that in going from simple primitive forms to final complex forms, the intermediate forms are more functional than the simple forms. But that assumption is false, except possibly for some pathological examples. As an illustration, consider evolving a new kind of heart with different plumbing, the intermediate stages would be lethal….

Important transitionals are not found in the fossil record because in principle they could not exist. Natural selection hinders innovation, it doesn’t foster it. The transitionals are not found in the fossil record maybe because they were never there.

Thus, it is wrong to presume selection implies a road to higher complexity and innovation. It does not. Part of the reason for this false belief is selection is falsely called a mechanism when instead it should be called an outcome. [Note: no Darwinist has even challenged that essay, was it because the points were too unassailable? :-)]

Intelligence has foresight, natural selection doesn’t. A tinkering intelligence will see the value of exploring partially formed or ill-formed designs in his mind or workshop. Blueprints and incomplete ideas can stay alive on the shelf for long periods before being revisited. Da Vinci conceived of a submarine about 400 hundred years before the submarine came to serious fruition. The conception of an airplane may have been at least 1000 years before the Wright brothers, through many failures, created controlled powered flight. The failed intermediate airplanes didn’t stop them from improving, whereas in nature, if the path to improvement must be through non-functioning forms, selection will not construct flying machines. Wilbur Wright, in the midst of despair after one of his failed experiments said:

Not within a thousand years will man ever fly.

But intelligence often has purpose, sometimes relentless purpose, whereas mindless nature does not. So what if beetles lose their wings and pterodactyls go extinct, nature, unlike Wilbur Wright and Werner von Braun, has no reason to reassemble phoenix from ashes of failed experiments and reach for the stars….

THE EFFECT OF MUTATIONS IN THE MIND VERSUS MUTATIONS IN THE WILD

Mutating ideas in the human mind or even in Genetic Algorithms doesn’t necessarily kill the idea. For example, I uncovered a very embarrassing fact in Avida 1.6. I had this population of Avida organisms, and I cranked up the simulated cosmic radiation level to the maximum. I likened the cosmic bombardment simulation to putting a creature in a microwave/x-ray oven for 3 weeks and then demanding the creatures reproduce — and the creatures kept happily reproducing!

In one of the most exhausting debates between a Creationist and Darwinist I’ve ever witnessed on the net, Richard Hoppe and I, politely and civilly argued for weeks. He had me up against the ropes because I was unfamiliar with Avida, but then I got a break when I demonstrated Avida creatures kept replicating even under intense simulated cosmic radiation. In the real world, survival (much less upward evolution) under such intense radiation won’t happen, but in the make-believe GA world of ideas anything is possible! ( you must be logged into ARN, then follow this link: RBH vs. Sal: Natural Selection Goes the Wrong Way).

Hence, ideas don’t die even if they are mutated into functionless zombies. Ideas can be dead and then later brought back to life in the mind. What constitutes survivability for ideas in the mind is arbitrary. But this is not the case in nature. Mutations in the wild can lead to deterioration and death, not innovation toward more integrated complexity.

Hence, even supposing there are free lunches in man-made genetic algorithms, nature doesn’t work like a man-made genetic algorithm. In nature, physics and chemistry determine what ideas and designs can live on to the next generation, whereas in the mind or in genetic algorithms, there is no such requirement.

DIRECTED MUTATIONS VERSUS RANDOM MUTATIONS
Like a locksmith or lock factory creating a key for a lock, the keys are crafted with the lock in mind versus taking random lumps of metal and mutating it with random strikes of a hammer or cuts with a grinding tool and via random trial and error arriving at a working key. Because a real watchmaker has an architecture in mind, he reduces the search time to find or create the matching parts versus using random swings of a sledgehammer on random materials to make a watch. Even with man-made genetic algorithms, the fitness functions are carefully crafted, they are anything but randomly hammered fitness functions.

By way of contrast, mutation and selection in the wild, like a blind watchbreaker, will find a way to diverge from a design solution (such as with mass extinction, blindness in cavefish, antibiotic resistant bacteria, wingless beetles, etc.). When a lunch might possibly be free through a little foresight (such as matching locks to keys, or parts of a watch with the whole of the watch), nature won’t take the free lunch, because it has no reason to craft fitness functions that will take advantage of a free lunch. All of Darwinist railing against NFL theorems are moot if nature takes random fitness functions or anti-design fitness functions over ones that would work.

In accelerated mutation experiments, we see where mutation leads — usually to disaster, not greater complexity. On what grounds should we suppose slower mutation rates will necessarily build integrated complexity? This is like saying we’ll smash watch parts with a hammer only once every 10 years instead of every 10 seconds, the final result is the same, a broken watch. In biology, the slow mutation rates allow populations to sometimes eliminate defects, and recover, but the point is, if fast mutation leads to no new innovation, on what logical grounds should slow mutation lead to new innovation either? Slow mutation only keeps the population from dying, it is misleading to suggest that slow mutation necessarily leads to innovation. Slow mutation and population persistence may allow for more trials, but if selection destroys necessary (but dysfunctional) intermediates, at best, slow mutation rates hide the problem mutation poses for Darwinism, it doesn’t eliminate it.

SUMMARY
It is understandable that we might be inclined to think nature works like a watchmaker when we see mutation followed by occasional adaptation. Superficially, selection in the wild appears to parallel the way we think and design, but the apparent parallel disappears upon closer inspection.

Darwinist statistics on the success of natural selection are distorted by confirmation bias. Darwinists focus primarily on nominal adaptations rather than including complete extinctions in the fossil record and ongoing extinction in the present day. Secondly, the adaptations are often of the dysfunctional variety (broken pumps in bacterial antibiotic resistant bacteria, winglessness in beetles) or trivial variety (coloring of peppered moths of thickness of beaks in finches). Further, selection is falsely called a mechanism when it should be called an outcome to the exclusion of other mechanisms that create complexity (such as bacterial or even human genetic engineering).

And if biological complexity in the wild is declining, in addition to the above considerations, it is clear, mindless nature is not a blind watchmaker but rather a blind watchbreaker. It is thus a moot point if free lunch can be discovered via Darwinian processes since nature seems to ignore or dispose of the lunches it already has. Nature has no inherent reason to select life over death (in fact the laws of physics dictate that nature should be more likely to select death and dysfunction rather life and function). This fact is borne out by empirical observation.

Ideas can survive mutations in the mind of the designer because even ill-formed ideas can remain in the mind until they are improved, but ill-formed designs in the wild will not survive to find further improvement. The process of directing mutations by designers (tinkering) is nothing like the process of random mutation in the wild which are empirically demonstrated to destroy function.

If Elizabeth Liddle, Richard Dawkins or others argue natural selection works like blind watchmaker, consider this essay. Nature is not a blind watchmaker it is a blind watchbreaker. If you can grab a free lunch, grab it, because the blind watchbreaker won’t.

Comments
PeterJ: Suppose that it did "produce one such example of a ‘transition’ taking place". Can you describe what the palaeontologist would find? Or, if you like, describe what you would accept as such an example.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 19, 2013
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Well it would be nice if the fossil record could even produce one such example of a ‘transition’ taking place.
Sure! But fossils are like snapshots of moments frozen in time. Fragments of remains cannot tell the whole story. No cine film to replay. The best Sal can hope for is anomalous fossils such as "rabbits in the Cambrian". PS I spoke of transitionals not transitions.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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"Of course evolution can’t be true without an unbroken chain of viable organisms from parent to offspring from the very first viable organism to now and everything in between." Well it would be nice if the fossil record could even produce one such example of a 'transition' taking place. I think that would be extremely helpful.PeterJ
July 19, 2013
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Of course evolution can't be true without an unbroken chain of viable organisms from parent to offspring from the very first viable organism to now and everything in between. Unbelievable! The ID explanation is so much harder to refute.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Ah, the old "you point to a transitional and we see two gaps now" routine! ;)Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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You haven’t named a transitional that couldn’t possibly exist
Here are some: https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/is-there-a-transitional-in-princple-for-these-hearts/scordova
July 19, 2013
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PS @ Sal KeithS can no longer comment here, so I trust you won't continue to address remarks to him as he is unable to respond.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Oops! EnvironmentalAlan Fox
July 19, 2013
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Sal:
So we have: Neil: Dawkins is wrong Patrick: neutral evolution not natural selection Petrushka: natural selection isn’t a designer KeithS: prefers to talk about philosophy on my other thread And Allan Miller, evolution happens in spite of selection!
Same old Sal. There's no set of rules people have to sign up to. We can all have our own opinions. Look at you, for example. A stream of fact-free opinions without a care in the world. No thought of motes and beams! For record: Dawkins was a great communicator of ideas in his popular books. He often over-simplified and maybe was over-confident in interpreting evidence. Haven't seen much contra-evidence tought. Much of what may have been speculative hasn't been refuted. Natural selection designs like MichaelAngelo. I think of natural selection as envionmental design. Philosophy is dead. Richard Rorty got it right. Sal quote-mines. A lot! Just my 2 cents.Alan Fox
July 19, 2013
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I posted this at TSZ highlight a contradiction by Elizabeth http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=2860&cpage=1#comment-26947 ===========================================
"No, we do not assume this. We do not assume it at all. Darwin may have done, but Darwin hadn’t thought about drift, not surprisingly, as much of the relevant work on statistics has been done since his time. We know that neutral mutations can and do propagate through a population, and that even deleterious mutations can do the same. And for every additional organism with a neutral or deleterious mutation there is an additional opportunity for a subsequent mutation to come along and render it positive. And we know this happens (from Lenski’s e-coli work, for instance, and from models)."
In that case selection is only an outcome, not a mechanism. If the numerous simultaneous changes happen which selection happens to select after all the changes appear, then selection is an outcome not a cumulative mechanism, and thus unable to function as Dawkins advertised to solve complex biological mechanism via accumulation of selectively favored steps for that function. Invocation of neutralism then leads to random blind search, exactly the opposite of what you claim:
" the iterative feedback from the environment that results in the incremental adjustment of the prototype so that it ever more closely fulfils some function. "
If the mutations are neutral there is no iterative feedback toward incremental adjustment.
"You are many decades out of date on this, Sal :)"
I've posted more on neutral theory than anyone at UD. Example from 2007: Prominent NAS member trashes Neo-Darwinism I wasn't out of date, that's an unsupportable claim, but you're statements of incremental adjustment and neutral evolution are logically incompatible. You, like Patrick, and Allan admit the necessity of unselectable changes. Not too bad if one is dealing with only two point mutations, but very bad if one needs hundreds or thousands of simultaneous mutations needed to implement a function. And if we have hundreds or thousands of mutations that are unselectable toward future function, that implies incremental adjustment toward function doesn't happen for those unselectable changes (except via blind luck), and thus refute this claim:
"iterative feedback from the environment that results in the incremental adjustment of the prototype so that it ever more closely fulfils some function. "
Thus, you refuted your own hypothesis -- refutation via contradiction, which is what I wished to demonstrate in the OP. QED.scordova
July 18, 2013
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Silliness! non-sequitur. yes. yours. Evidently you don't know what speciation is, again, I'm left wondering why I should bother.wd400
July 18, 2013
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Wd40: What’s clear, though, is that Darwin’s theory of speciation (in which populations were simply riven in two by selection) wouldn’t work.
Well said. Darwin's theory wouldn't work for speciation, what you left out is Darwin's theory wouldn't work for creation of large scale integrated complexity either.
Thus, in time, between-population incompatibilities accrue such that even if the populations where combined they would not be able to interbreed.
But creating incompatibility or undesirability between members of an existing species doesn't not imply large scale innovation will take place. It only demonstrates inability or unwillingness to breed. Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston apparently don't want to hook up anymore, this fact shouldn't suggest that their descendants will necessarily form new kinds of organs of comparable difference such as found in macroevolution. Yet, that's the sort of non-sequiturs that are rampant in evolutionary theory which goes like this:
individuals of an ancestral species can't or won't breed with each other, therefore novel organs like bat wings from wingless ancestors will be created
Silliness! non-sequitur. The correct statement is this
Emergence of novel organs (like wings where there were no wings before) might preclude interbreeding, but preclusion of interbreeding does not imply the emergence of new organs.
More succinctly:
radically differing organs imply no interbreeding
example: trees and frogs don't interbreed because they have differing organs The correct contrapostive of this claim is:
interbreeding implies no radically different organs
but Darwinist can't even get basic logic right and falsely misstate the contrapositive of the above
no interbreeding implies radically different organs
Evolutionists can't seem to grasp basic logic. Coyne goes on and on about the lack of interbreeding, as if this demonstrates novel organs like bat wings or whale sonar parts will emerge.
Wd40: That is, the modern extinction rates are vastly higher than he background level.
Only if you presume the mainstream geological timescales are true (and they could be false). But even granting the mainstream geological timescales, models of how evolution is currently happening (high extinction rates, undetecatable speciations), conflict with evolution in the past. First, evolutionary models based on what we see today aren't a good explanation of the past (genetic entropy is such an evolutionary model, it is accurate for describing the present day). Second, evolutionary mechanisms which aren't based on what we see in operation today are untestable therefore it is dubious to call such a theory science (a good example is hopeful monster theory). Third, Darwinism doesn't accord with the past or present. It's an incoherent theory. It makes the non-sequitur that selection for the whole implies selection for the parts. That notion, that selection for the final system, implies selection for the parts of the system is Dawkins delusion.
It’s almost you were trying to prove my point about shallow your understanding is, and how reluctant you are to take on new information.
No, Dawkins understanding of basic logic is shallow, evolutionism is reluctant to accept reasoned criticisms from an engineering perspective such as outlined in the OP (which I obviously got from other sources). Coyne said it well:
In science's pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics
Theories in physics and chemistry are real theories, evolutionary theories aren't even shallow. I sometimes regret I've wasted time reading about evolutionism when I could have been reading chemistry books....scordova
July 18, 2013
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Also I suggest you read Meyer's book which explains why nothing of consequence can happen.jerry
July 18, 2013
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Are you sure you are in a position to judge whether these ideas have any consequence?
Absolutely. Actually the concept of separation goes back 200 years to Von Buch. I suggest you go to the link below which has several lectures at Stanford on evolution and listen to the lecture by the Grants on Darwin's finches. At the end there is a discussion on speciation and it takes about 32 million years for these birds to truly become different species. And then we are only talking about minor differences. The finches have been on the Galapagos for 3 million years and all there are is varieties of the same species. All can mate with each other including the ones separated on different islands. http://www.youtube.com/course?list=ECF2E17B4CDCCE15F5 No body has shown anything of consequence from the process you mention. All the gushing in this presentation is over trivial changes. They give the game away by what they say and do not say. Great discussion of micro evolution but essentially they can go no further. Well worth the watching. Then go to the Johnson/Provine debate at Stanford in 1994 where Johnson presents evidence and Provine says he has faith. Again the naturalistic evolution adherents give the game away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7dG9U1vQ_Ujerry
July 18, 2013
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Hi wd400, I'm perplexed about how you can claim expertise on the various methods exposed by Darwinists for unguided speciation when no one can seem to ever provide an unambiguous example of ANY Darwinian processes ever producing a new species. Or you also an expert on the various methods for successfully swimming across the Pacific ocean whether by breast stroke or by butterfly stroke etc..???? Materialists do not seem to notice that their theory of evolution expects and even demands there should be undeniably clear evidence for a genetically, and morphologically, unique species on earth somewhere since man first suddenly appeared on earth. Indeed there should be many such unambiguous examples they could produce to silence their critics. Darwinists simply have no examples of speciation which they can offer as proof for their theory so as to silence those of us who doubt random processes can build or radically change the unfathomed complexity we see in life.
"Perhaps the most obvious challenge is to demonstrate evolution empirically. There are, arguably, some 2 to 10 million species on earth. The fossil record shows that most species survive somewhere between 3 and 5 million years. In that case, we ought to be seeing small but significant numbers of originations (new species) .. every decade." Keith Stewart Thomson, Professor of Biology and Dean of the Graduate School, Yale University (Nov. -Dec. American Scientist, 1997 pg. 516) "Despite a close watch, we have witnessed no new species emerge in the wild in recorded history. Also, most remarkably, we have seen no new animal species emerge in domestic breeding. That includes no new species of fruitflies in hundreds of millions of generations in fruitfly studies, where both soft and harsh pressures have been deliberately applied to the fly populations to induce speciation. And in computer life, where the term “species” does not yet have meaning, we see no cascading emergence of entirely new kinds of variety beyond an initial burst. In the wild, in breeding, and in artificial life, we see the emergence of variation. But by the absence of greater change, we also clearly see that the limits of variation appear to be narrowly bounded, and often bounded within species." Kevin Kelly from his book, "Out of Control" The Receding Myth of "Junk DNA" - Jonathan Wells - October 6, 2011 Excerpt: Farrell is shocked by my statement in The Myth of Junk DNA that biologists have never observed speciation (the origin of a new species) by natural selection. He refers to "extensive work being done in the field" by two biologists, H. Allen Orr and Matthew L. Niemiller. But Orr and Niemiller study the genetics of existing species and try to find evidence supporting hypotheses about their origins. As I documented in my 2006 book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, there is nothing in the scientific literature showing that they or any others have ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection. In plants, new species have been observed to originate by chromosome doubling (polyploidy). But speciation by polyploidy is not due to natural selection (nor to genetic drift, another process mentioned by Farrell), and even evolutionary biologists acknowledge that polyploidy does not solve Darwin's problem. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/post_32051651.html Sorry, Ring Species Do Not Provide Good Evidence for the Origin of New Species by the Darwinian Mechanism - April 2012 Excerpt: The classic example of a ring species was the herring gull, with populations circling the northern hemisphere. But this example is not what it has been advertised to be. In a 2004 paper titled "The herring gull complex is not a ring species," German and Dutch biologists concluded: "What earlier authors... regarded as "the herring gull" turned out to be an assemblage of several distinct taxa (argentatus, vegae, smithsonianus), which are not each other's closest relatives. Our results show that the ring-species model does not adequately describe the evolution of the herring gull group." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/04/sorry_ring_spec058261.html "The closest science has come to observing and recording actual speciation in animals is the work of Theodosius Dobzhansky in Drosophilia paulistorium fruit flies. But even here, only reproductive isolation, not a new species, appeared." from page 32 "Acquiring Genomes" Lynn Margulis. Selection and Speciation: Why Darwinism Is False - Jonathan Wells: Excerpt: there are observed instances of secondary speciation — which is not what Darwinism needs — but no observed instances of primary speciation, not even in bacteria. British bacteriologist Alan H. Linton looked for confirmed reports of primary speciation and concluded in 2001: “None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/selection_and_speciation_why_d.html Scant search for the Maker Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282 Wired Science: One Long Bluff - Refuting a recent finch speciation claim - Jonathan Wells - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: "Does the report in Wired Science mean that “biologists have witnessed that elusive moment when a single species (of Galapagos finch) splits in two?” Absolutely not." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/wired_science_one_long_bluff.html
Here is a detailed refutation, by Casey Luskin, of TalkOrigins severely misleading site on the claimed evidence for observed macro-evolution (speciation);
Specious Speciation: The Myth of Observed Large-Scale Evolutionary Change - Casey Luskin - January 2012 - article http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/talk_origins_sp055281.html Here is part 2 of a podcast exposing the Talk Origin's speciation FAQ as a 'literature bluff' Talk Origins Speciation FAQ, pt. 2: Lack of Evidence for Big Claims - Casey Luskin - podcast http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-02-15T14_09_41-08_00
As well, materialists never mention the fact that the variations found in nature (such as peppered moth color finch beak size, lizard cecal valve) which are often touted as solid proof of that evolution can do anything are always found to be cyclical in nature. i.e. The variations are found to vary around a median position with never a continual deviation from the norm. This blatant distortion/omission of evidence for the cyclical nature of these variations led Phillip Johnson to comment in the Wall Street Journal:
"When our leading scientists have to resort to the sort of distortion that would land a stock promoter in jail, you know they are in trouble."
In fact in this following informative talk/interview, Dr. Lönnig takes apart in expert fashion, the claim by Dawkins and other Darwinists, that dogs are proof of macro-evolution:
podcast - On this episode of ID the Future, Casey Luskin talks with geneticist Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig about his recent article on the evolution of dogs. Casey and Dr. Lönnig evaluate the claim (by Richard Dawkins and others) that dogs somehow demonstrate macroevolution. http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-02-01T17_41_14-08_00 Part 2: Dog Breeds: Proof of Macroevolution? http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2013-02-04T16_57_07-08_00
bornagain77
July 18, 2013
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Hi Jerry. No. We have Moritz Wagner, some 100 years Gould's senior, to thank for allopatric speciation. And Ernst Mayr for the idea's popularity. In any case, the process I describe works equally in populations without geographical separation. Are you sure you are in a position to judge whether these ideas have any consequence?wd400
July 18, 2013
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Very briefly, species arise when populations stop sharing genes with each other. A lack of gene flow means each population is now on a distinct evolutionary trajectory, as changes in one can’t influence processes in the other.
This is Gould's allopatric theory of evolution which is old and discarded as producing nothing of any consequence. Maybe a new beetle species in a few million years. Read Meyer's book for a review of this process. Coyne is admitting that there is no theory of naturalistic evolution by promoting this. If he had anything of consequence he would drop this in a nanosecond.jerry
July 18, 2013
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(I don't think speciation is a "designer-mimic mechanism", btw)wd400
July 18, 2013
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Joe. Speciation by Coyne and Orr is the book to read. Very briefly, species arise when populations stop sharing genes with each other. A lack of gene flow means each population is now on a distinct evolutionary trajectory, as changes in one can't influence processes in the other. Importantly, genes that need to co-evolve and remain compatible with each other a population will continue to do so in each sub-population. But the the pressure to remain comparable with changes occurring in the other population has gone. Thus, in time, between-population incompatibilities accrue such that even if the populations where combined they would not be able to interbreed. With biology being so interesting, there is no single path to speciation. Other processes including selection, drift, chromosomal evolution and assortative mating all contribute to the origin of species. What's clear, though, is that Darwin's theory of speciation (in which populations were simply riven in two by selection) wouldn't work. As I say, Speciation is the place to start if you want to see the evidence that supports these ideas.wd400
July 18, 2013
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Well, the modern concept of speciation is very different from Darwin's. And Darwin did not think about drift.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 18, 2013
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Please reference this alleged modern theory of speciation. And please tell us of this other designer-mimic mechanism.Joe
July 18, 2013
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I should add - this about the 10, 000th time the silly conflation of Darwin with modern evolutionary biology has shown up the gap between the theory IDers object to and evolution as we understand it. The modern theory of speciation is almost entirely unrelated to Darwin's.wd400
July 18, 2013
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WD40 admits we have difficulty proving Darwin’s thesis of origin of species via natural selection since the speciation rate is undetectable! It's almost you were trying to prove my point about shallow your understanding is, and how reluctant you are to take on new information. In that earlier thread I explained that speciation is a population process, that takes many generations to complete. Populations are undergoing speciation now, and we can study every stage of it, but we can't sit here and watch as a population becokmes a species. No one (in their right mind at least) doubts stellar evolution, for instance, even though no one has seen a star go through of the stages that marks that process. So why get excercise abouse not seeing a populatin go through each stage of speciation. More to the point, why dont' you try and address the other points. That is, the modern extinction rates are vastly higher than he background level. The contingent nature of evolution means that the loss of one species isn't necessarily the loss any innovation in may have inherited form an ancestor (since sister species will also have inherited that innovation) You haven't named a transitional that couldn't possibly existwd400
July 18, 2013
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Nweil Rickert sez that biological organisms don't look designed to him! LoL! As if Neil would know...Joe
July 18, 2013
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I meant to chide, 'You mark my words!' Without that concluding school-marmish reproach, it lacks the crackpot, Polonius-like gravamen, so important, when dealing with recalcitrant Darwinists.Axel
July 18, 2013
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The world is divided into things that look designed (like birds and airliners) and things that don't (rocks and mountains). Things that look designed are divided into those that really are designed (submarines and tin openers) and those that aren't (sharks and hedgehogs). The diagnostic of things that look (or are) designed is that their parts are assembled in ways that are statistically improbable in a functional direction. They do something well: for instance, fly. Darwinian natural selection can produce an uncanny illusion of design. An engineer would be hard put to decide whether a bird or a plane was the more aerodynamically elegant. ... Natural selection is quintessentially non-random, yet it is lamentably often miscalled random. This one mistake underlies much of the skeptical backlash against evolution. Chance cannot explain life. Design is as bad an explanation as chance because it raises bigger questions than it answers. Evolution by natural selection is the only workable theory ever proposed that is capable of explaining life, and it does so brilliantly. Richard Dawkins
NOT! This essay refutes Dawkins claim. And btw, Neil takes a different route and says Dawkins is wrong to thing biology looks designed. So we have: Neil: Dawkins is wrong Patrick: neutral evolution not natural selection Petrushka: natural selection isn't a designer KeithS: prefers to talk about philosophy on my other thread And Allan Miller, evolution happens in spite of selection!
Allan "It is not quite correct to say that ‘we’ assume that all transitions are selectively favoured. It is sufficient that NS does not act too strongly against, not that it must act for, a particular change. " So evolution happens in spite of selection, not because of it. Score another for the OP! http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=2860&cpage=1#comment-26916
scordova
July 18, 2013
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Phlogiston set a bad example. It all ended in tears before bed-time, and so will Darwinism. Such hubris in the teeth of damning evidence to the contrary.Axel
July 18, 2013
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I responded to Petrushka:
Petrushka wrote: "Natural Selection doesn’t have goals. Doesn’t have foresight. Doesn’t “engineer.” So what is your point?" If natural selection doesn't engineer, it isn't a watchmaker then, is it? http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=2860&cpage=1#comment-26913
Patrick appeals to neutral evolution (pretty much dumping selection!). Petrushka admits natural selection isn't a designer, pretty much dissing Dawkins. Are they trying to refute or affirm my points over there? :-) And they accuse me of being confused.scordova
July 18, 2013
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WD40: spection rate being low (actually, undectable)
WD40 admits we have difficulty proving Darwin's thesis of origin of species via natural selection since the speciation rate is undetectable! If his theory is unproven, why again is it a solid scientific theory that is as proven as gravity?scordova
July 18, 2013
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I see petrushka has responded- natural selection doesn't select for, it merely eliminates the deficient- IOW natural selection isn't even a mechanism of selection! Perhaps Sal could ask them to provide a positive hypotheses for blind watchmaker evolution and some testable predictions that can serve to falsify them.Joe
July 18, 2013
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