Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The ID argument from thermodynamics

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Since in my last post a commenter put on the table thermodynamics to support evolution I decided to offer my personal answer in a specific post, although UD already dealt with this issue. As known, 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLOT, also called “entropy law”) states that in a closed system the overall energy entropy ΔS never decreases spontaneously (i.e. without an external intervention). Example: in a room (considered a closed system) a hot cup of coffee on a tabletop, loosing heat, decreases in energy entropy –ΔSc (neghentropy). Around the table the environment, absorbing heat, increases energy entropy ΔSe, in such manner that the overall energy entropy of the room ΔSr doesn’t decrease. In this example SLOT can be expressed with this formula:

ΔSr = ΔSe – ΔSc = ΔQe/Te – ΔQc/Tc >= 0 (measured in Joule/Kelvin)

ΔQx are amounts of heat and Tx are absolute temperatures.

In statistical mechanics it is used also another definition of entropy. The statistical entropy H of a system, given the number W of its microscopic configurations (or microstates), can be written as:

H = ln W (measured in bits, ln is base-2 logarithm).

To correlate somehow the two definitions of entropy, S (energy entropy) and H (statistical entropy), they write the statistical entropy in the Boltzmann’s form:

H = k * ln W (k is the Boltzmann’s constant 1.38 x 10^-23 J/K)

The constant k is introduced to match the measure units.

If a system A is more improbable, more complex, than a system B it means that its microstates Wa, consistent with the specification of A (chosen from a given universe of microstates U) are less than the microstates Wb, which meet the specification of B (chosen from the same universe of microstates U):

Wa < Wb

As a consequence the statistical entropy of A is less than the statistical entropy of B:

Ha < Hb

Smaller probability signifies more information (because the information of a sequence of characters or bits is inversely proportional to its probability to occur), then system A contains more information than B. In this sense statistical entropy is a measure of the lack of information (or ignorance of). According to another similar point of view, since more the microstates more the disorder, system A is said to be more ordered and system B more disordered. Along this line, statistical entropy becomes sort of measure of disorder (and statistical neghentropy a measure of order).

Given the above scientific scenario, evolutionists elaborated a flawed argument that sounds something like this: while, according to SLOT, the overall entropy of a closed system doesn’t decrease, however there can be entropy downwards fluctuations somewhere in the system. In short, while entropy doesn’t decrease globally, it can decrease locally. Since, according to the statistical definition of entropy, a decrease of entropy implies more information and complexity, evolution (intended as a continue process increasing them) is possible locally in the planet, also if the global entropy of the universe increases. However, to justify the continuity of evolution, they need something more than some rare fluctuations, they need an endless sequence of neghentropies. They believe that the cause or origin of these series of neghentropies could well be the Sun, which continually emits heat towards the Earth, allowing the continue biological evolution of organisms (from simple forms to ever more complex forms). The Daniel F. Styer’s paper "Entropy and evolution" makes this argument quantitative and shows that just a very little part of the entropy flux from the Sun is just sufficient to allow the evolution of all organisms arisen on Earth. However the author admits that his calculations allow or permit evolution, they do not require it. As we will see below, this article is not at all a proof of evolution because it considers evolution only from the energy viewpoint and not from the organization viewpoint (which is the essential one).

Below I will provide an explanation which will be in the same time a disproof of the above evolutionist argument and the ID argument from thermodynamics against evolution.

First off, a decrease of entropy, despite the fact it can be measured in bits, is not at all what Intelligent Design Theory (IDT) calls "Complex Specified Information" (CSI). The order of neghentropy is not CSI, which is very organization. Whenever and wherever only CSI can produce organization. This is a basic statement which Norbert Wiener, just before the arise of ID, expressed so: "The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree" ("Cybernetics", Introduction). When we deal with organization we always have CSI. But the entropic order is not true organization and as such cannot account for the complexity of organisms, which are highly organized systems.

A misunderstanding that causes the evolutionist’s error is that statistical entropy, Shannon information and CSI can all be measured in bits. But the simple fact that two things can be measured or evaluated by the same unit doesn’t mean that they are the same thing or do the same work. A scientist and a porter are both paid in dollars but their jobs are different. Analogously the neghentropic bits are not bits of organization, rather bits of simple order. Eventually they can yet speak of information when they deal with entropy expressed in bits, but however these bits have nothing to do with the CSI of organization. As such they cannot account for the spontaneous generation of CSI systems as organisms. As an example, the immense organization of a biological cell has nothing to do with the simple order of a crystal (which generation implies decrease of entropy).

ID theory says that organization is different from the simple energy decrease in entropy because the former implies CSI while the latter doesn’t. In fact CSI is not simple information but information that is complex and specified. The question is: can the information related to a decrease in entropy event on the Earth be complex and specified? If this event were complex and specified it should be such also its cause (as a general principle, what is contained in the effect must be potentially in its cause). The cause, according to evolutionists, is the heat coming from the Sun. Hence the question becomes: can the information related to an energy flux from the Sun be complex and specified? We can admit that this energy flux is complex, but of the kind of complexity of a long random sequence. In fact we could for example convert the measured analog data stream of the solar energy flux by means of an ADC (Analog Digital Converter). Likely the sampled sequence of bits (obtained by the analog-digital conversion) is complex (of low probability). But sure this data stream is not specified, in the sense that IDT considers specification (predefined patterns). No particular predefined pattern (of the kind we see in the biological systems) is recognizable in an energy transfer from the Sun. To claim otherwise would mean that the energy transfer is someway "modulated" or "codified" according to pre-specified patterns (as radio/TV transmissions or the sound waves of a speech are): a clear absurdity. Lacking specification in no way the energy flux from the Sun conveys CSI to the Earth. To put it bluntly, the Sun sends energy, not organization. As a consequence the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system evolutionist objection (to escape the ID argument from thermodynamics) is not valid.

Another way to consider SLOT from an ID "no free lunch" perspective is: SLOT states that order cannot come from nothingness, order must always have a source or counterpart. It is also in this sense that SLOT supports ID and denies evolution. In fact if just order needs a source to greater reason organization (which has higher rank than order) does. In a system organization can increase if the system is not closed and an external CSI source inserts it into the system to increase its internal organization. This must be the case of the ID origin of life and of species on the Earth: an external intelligent source provided CSI.

In a sense, the evolutionist "Sun argument" means that CSI can be paid by simple energy. But energy cannot create CSI. For absurd, whether energy provided CSI, for example, software houses could think of not to pay expensive computer programmers, rather they would buy power plants; publishers wouldn’t pay writers, they would buy power supplies instead, and so on. Thermodynamics states that in any energy conversion, the quantity of energy is the same before and after the conversion, but the quality decreases. Never energy conversion is 100 percent efficient. In the thermodynamics processes there is quality degradation (entropy) of energy. But if energy quality decreases to greater reason organization cannot increase, which is far more qualitative than energy.

Comments
Doomsday Smith, have you read the excerpts I provided above at 21? They show the error in your claim that "there’s still nothing in thermodynamics for either you or ID in general to latch onto". In short, "mechanisms which can produce biological complexity derive power from the sun." is a bogus concept, a fiction. There is no support whatsoever, either empirical or theoretical, for supposing there could be such a mechanism in an undirected prebiotic universe. "No mechanism" means all that power is ineffectual and completely irrelevant with regard to the origin of biological complexity. "No mechanism" means literally no connection between the two topics. Without a mechanism, the sun can't help at all. Pointing people to the sun is misdirection from the core thermodynamic problem -- no mechanism to do the necessary conversion.ericB
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
05:24 AM
5
05
24
AM
PDT
OK, let's see if Wordpress can handle this properly: The sun causes skin cancer.Doomsday Smith
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
02:46 AM
2
02
46
AM
PDT
Broken link above. Here's the fixed version: The sun causes skin cancer.Doomsday Smith
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
02:41 AM
2
02
41
AM
PDT
niwrad: OK, nifty. "X gives rise to the increase in order of Y" is "fully different" Only it's fully not. Allow me to explain in far more detail than should be necessary: It first states that Earth has a constant energy input, the sun, and it does so because you're supposed to keep this role in mind when reading the rest of it. This is called "context". So anyway, it then says that because of this fact (remember: sun == energy input) "the sun could give rise". Could give. As in "a constant energy input makes all sorts of stuff possible". So the basic idea that you're supposed to be getting here is that the sun is a cause, but not the only cause. And, BTW, it's not "gives rise", as you have paraphrased it, though that's more of a nitpick. I mention your version, though, because it's basically equivalent to saying "X causes Y", which is a construction used constantly in science-related discussions, making it very easy to find examples. Take for instance this sentence: The sun causes skin cancer. So, would you really assume that someone saying this actually thinks that's the whole story, or would you behave sensibly and recognize that they're merely skipping over the details, such as UV being the particular solar product of interest when it comes to skin cancers, the physics and chemistry involved in the direct and indirect damage to DNA resulting from interactions with UV photons, the various mutations which can result from these interactions, the changes in cell behavior one can expect to find in skin cancers in general, the differences between basal and squamous cell carcinomas (and their respective sub-types) and melanoma (and its respective sub-types), the existence of numerous cases which aren't caused by UV damage (e.g. Kaposi's sarcoma), et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?* I would guess that you'd go for "skipping the details". Most people would. Point of all this being? Your Biologos quote isn't so much damning as it is the same damn thing, and what this all looks like to me is that: A. You're either willfully misinterpreting the obvious intent of that sentence for rhetorical purposes or B. Your reading comprehension could use some work. At least when it comes to English, anyway. For all I know, it's not your primary language. I'm not trying to be a jerk here: I just honestly can't come up with anything else to explain the strained reading you're insisting on. Whatever the actual reason, though, there's still nothing in thermodynamics for either you or ID in general to latch onto and that poor horse is still stone-cold dead. If it seems like it's still twitching a bit, that's only because you keep whacking on it so much. *Cancer's actually some pretty complex and specific stuff when you get right down to it, eh?Doomsday Smith
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
02:39 AM
2
02
39
AM
PDT
BillB #14
"Therefore, energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS." This is not a claim that the sun delivers biological complexity, it simply states that mechanisms which can produce biological complexity derive power from the sun.
Don’t defend the indefensible. "X gives rise to the increase in order on Y" is fully different from "X powers Y" and the guys at Biologos Foundation know it.niwrad
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
12:19 AM
12
12
19
AM
PDT
The old 2nd law (again). I think you are flogging a dead horse. See HereGraham
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
11:34 PM
11
11
34
PM
PDT
The Mystery of Life's Origin reviewed origin of life research and spent three chapters (7-9) examining thermodynamic issues in detail. I believe their conclusions may clarify the force of niwrad's central points. Evolutionists are correct in saying it is a mistake to simply argue as if the Earth is an isolated system. It's not. It's open. But evolutionists themselves are mistaken when they think that showing the Earth can have a local decrease of entropy solves all issues. This first excerpt is from p. 165. "Summary of Thermodynamics Discussion "Throughout Chapters 7-9 we have analyzed the problems of complexity and the origin of life from a thermodynamic point of view. Our reason for doing this is the common notion in the scientific literature today on the origin of life that an open system with energy and mass flow is a priori a sufficient explanation for the complexity of life. We have examined the validity of such an open and constrained system. We found it to be a reasonable explanation for doing the chemical and thermal entropy work, but clearly inadequate to account for the configurational entropy work of coding (not to mention the sorting and selecting work). We have noted the need for some sort of coupling mechanism. Without it, there is no way to convert the negative entropy associated with energy flow into negative entropy associated with configurational entropy and the corresponding information. Is it reasonable to believe such a "hidden" coupling mechanism will be found in the future that can play this crucial role of a template, metabolic motor, etc., directing the flow of energy in such a way as to create new information?" This second excerpt is from p. 183 from within their Summary for the book. "... The primary difficulty was not lack of suitable energy sources. Rather it was both a lack of sufficient energy mobilizing means to harness the energy to the specific task of building biopolymers and a lack of means to generate the proper sequence of, say, amino acids in a polypeptide to get biological function. We have identified this latter problem as one of doing the configurational entropy work. Here the difficulty is fundamental. It applies equally to discarded, present, and possible future models of chemical evolution. We believe the problem is analagous to that of the medieval alchemist who was commissioned to change copper into gold. Energy flow through a system can do chemical work and produce an otherwise improbable distribution of energy in the system (e.g., a water heater). Thermal entropy, however, seems to be physically independent from the informational content of living systems which we have analyzed and called configurational entropy. As was pointed out, Yockey has noted that negative thermodynamic entropy (thermal) has nothing to do with information, and no amount of energy flow through the system and negative thermal entropy generation can produce even a small amount of information. You can't get gold out of copper, apples out of oranges, or information out of negative thermal entropy. There does not seem to be any physical basis for the widespread assumption implicit in the idea that an open system is a sufficient explanation for the complexity of life. As we have previously noted, there is neither a theoretical nor an experimental basis for this hypothesis. There is no hint in our experience of any mechanistic means of supplying the necessary configurational entropy work. Enzymes and human intelligence, however, do it routinely."ericB
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
05:44 PM
5
05
44
PM
PDT
niwrad:
I am glad you agree with me that the sun isn’t sufficient for life and evolution. Unfortunately many evolutionists disagree with us, see my comment #13.
Biologos does not say that the sun is sufficient for evolution. The only sentence in the quote that could possibly be taken that way is: "Therefore, energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS." I think it's a stretch to interpret this as saying that solar energy is all that is needed for complex molecules and organisms to arise. Do you really think that Biologos expects there to be complex molecules and organisms on every planet and asteroid in every solar system?
Here I disagree with you. CSI always implies complexity. Simplicity never makes CSI. A crystal shows simple order. A biological cell shows complex organization. Would you claim that crystal has more CSI than cell?
You've fallen into a terminology trap with the word "complexity". If a cell has more CSI than a crystal, it is not because the cell has complicated organization while the crystal has simple order. Your disagreement should be taken up with Dembski, as he's the one who defined CSI.
When the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system objection is used to argue that the Sun is the cause of evolution, an IDer can oppose an ID argument that, given the thermodynamic scenario and given the ID theory own tools (CSI), denies the evolutionist assumption. I call this ID counter-argument “ID argument from thermodynamics”.
Earth-is-not-a-closed-system successfully refutes the ID argument that evolution is impossible because entropy cannot decrease. But you seem to be referring to a different argument, one that is based on both thermodynamics and CSI, and I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what it is. Is your argument that since negentropy requires a source, CSI must also? If so, what does this have to do with ID? Negentropy does not require an intelligent source.
In that SLOT agrees with ID (which too states the necessity of an intelligent source of organization), and in the same time from that specific point of view, SLOT disagrees with evolution when denies the necessity of an intelligent source of organization.
The SLOT says nothing about the alleged necessity of an intelligent source of organization, so it makes no sense to say that it agrees or disagrees with ID or evolution in this respect.
Whenever and wherever empirical data show that organization is designed by intelligence.
What empirical data are you referring to? To have such data, there must be operational definitions for "organization", "designed", and "intelligence". Where are these definitions and data documented?
You can find the math of this ascertainment in ID theory textbooks.
Which book did you have in mind? We can walk through the math to see if it shows that organization requires an intelligent source.R0b
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
03:27 PM
3
03
27
PM
PDT
Olin #15
If you are going to criticize your opponent, at least criticize a claim they are making.
Have you read my post and the comments? I do criticize claims made by ID opponents. In fact in my post I criticize evolutionist statements of the sort ”energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS” (see my comment #13). This claim was not invented by me; it was made by a major evolutionist organization.niwrad
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
R0b #14
Of course, the sun isn’t sufficient for life and evolution. Has anybody ever said that it is?
I am glad you agree with me that the sun isn’t sufficient for life and evolution. Unfortunately many evolutionists disagree with us, see my comment #13.
Dembski’s currently defines specificity in terms of descriptive simplicity. All else being equal, a system of simple order has more CSI than a system of organization.
Here I disagree with you. CSI always implies complexity. Simplicity never makes CSI. A crystal shows simple order. A biological cell shows complex organization. Would you claim that crystal has more CSI than cell?
The Earth-is-not-a-closed-system objection does negate ID arguments from thermodynamics. It does not negate ID arguments from CSI.
When the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system objection is used to argue that the Sun is the cause of evolution, an IDer can oppose an ID argument that, given the thermodynamic scenario and given the ID theory own tools (CSI), denies the evolutionist assumption. I call this ID counter-argument "ID argument from thermodynamics". We could call it "ID argument based on thermodynamics" or "ID argument suggested by thermodynamics" or whatever. But the substance doesn’t change: Earth-is-not-a-closed-system doesn’t prove evolution.
How does the SLOT deny evolution in a thermodynamically open system?
I wrote: "Order must always have a source or counterpart. It is also in this sense that SLOT supports ID and denies evolution." I meant that SLOT states the necessity of a source of order. In that SLOT agrees with ID (which too states the necessity of an intelligent source of organization), and in the same time from that specific point of view, SLOT disagrees with evolution when denies the necessity of an intelligent source of organization.
The “reason” underlying the SLOT is empirical and mathematical. Is your conservation of organization law based on “greater” empirical data and math?
Whenever and wherever empirical data show that organization is designed by intelligence. You can find the math of this ascertainment in ID theory textbooks.niwrad
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
Um, what evolutionist is making the argument that the Sun can decrease information entropy? Furthermore, Schneider has shown that information entropy can be decreased through natural selection. If you are going to criticize your opponent, at least criticize a claim they are making.olin
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
11:31 AM
11
11
31
AM
PDT
niwrad, I've read your post, and I see no "ID argument from thermodynamics" in it. All I see is an argument that hinges on unsupported premises regarding CSI.
They believe that the cause or origin of these series of neghentropies could well be the Sun, which continually emits heat towards the Earth, allowing the continue biological evolution of organisms (from simple forms to ever more complex forms).
The sun is a hot spot in an otherwise cold sky. Biological organisms rely on this thermal differential in order to live. This isn't speculation. Of course, the sun isn't sufficient for life and evolution. Has anybody ever said that it is?
However the author admits that his calculations allow or permit evolution, they do not require it. As we will see below, this article is not at all a proof of evolution because it considers evolution only from the energy viewpoint and not from the organization viewpoint (which is the essential one).
Of course it's not proof of evolution! To say that the calculations don't require evolution is to say that they don't prove evolution.
Analogously the neghentropic bits are not bits of organization, rather bits of simple order. Eventually they can yet speak of information when they deal with entropy expressed in bits, but however these bits have nothing to do with the CSI of organization.
Dembski's currently defines specificity in terms of descriptive simplicity. All else being equal, a system of simple order has more CSI than a system of organization.
But sure this data stream is not specified, in the sense that IDT considers specification (predefined patterns). No particular predefined pattern (of the kind we see in the biological systems) is recognizable in an energy transfer from the Sun. To claim otherwise would mean that the energy transfer is someway "modulated" or "codified" according to pre-specified patterns (as radio/TV transmissions or the sound waves of a speech are): a clear absurdity.
Dembski's definitions of specificity have never entailed "predefined" or "pre-specified". His point was to generalize the notion of specification such that events could be specified post hoc. As mentioned before, his current definition is in terms of descriptive simplicity.
As a consequence the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system evolutionist objection (to escape the ID argument from thermodynamics) is not valid.
The Earth-is-not-a-closed-system objection does negate ID arguments from thermodynamics. It does not negate ID arguments from CSI. As you point out yourself, CSI is not the same as thermodynamic negentropy.
Another way to consider SLOT from an ID "no free lunch" perspective is: SLOT states that order cannot come from nothingness, order must always have a source or counterpart.
Nothingness is as ordered as you can get, as it has only one microstate.
It is also in this sense that SLOT supports ID and denies evolution.
How does the SLOT deny evolution in a thermodynamically open system?
In fact if just order needs a source to greater reason organization (which has higher rank than order) does. ... In the thermodynamics processes there is quality degradation (entropy) of energy. But if energy quality decreases to greater reason organization cannot increase, which is far more qualitative than energy.
The "reason" underlying the SLOT is empirical and mathematical. Is your conservation of organization law based on "greater" empirical data and math?R0b
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PDT
niwrad,
“With biological evolution however, the system being considered is not the universe, but the Earth. And the Earth is not an isolated system. This means that an increase in order can occur on Earth as long as there is an energy input — most notably the light of the sun. Therefore, energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS.”
This is not a claim that the sun delivers biological complexity, it simply states that mechanisms which can produce biological complexity derive power from the sun. No one is claiming that the sun delivers CSI to the Earth, just that the sun provides energy that can power chemical and biological processes on earth, which in turn can generate complexity. Biologists consider the sun a source of energy, nothing more.BillB
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT
Doomsday Smith #11, Your claim that no evolutionist considers the Sun as source of biological complexity is contradicted by many examples. For instance read the following recent statement by Biologos Foundation (of Dr. Francis Collins, a major evolutionist scientist): "With biological evolution however, the system being considered is not the universe, but the Earth. And the Earth is not an isolated system. This means that an increase in order can occur on Earth as long as there is an energy input — most notably the light of the sun. Therefore, energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS." here Your "dead horse" is not so dead after all.niwrad
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
I think the CSI you are looking for, the “active information” is snuck in by the Designer through the laws of physics and chemistry. Nakashima-san, you make a very good point. The danger in using CSI (or ID) to buttress a religious faith is that such a thing might very well be found.tribune7
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
07:24 AM
7
07
24
AM
PDT
Yes, well, no one ever said that not violating the 2nd Law accounted for or explained the increases in organization seen in biology. Or chemical reactions in general for that matter. The point is, simply, that they don't violate it, as is so often claimed. You're arguing against something that no one, as far as I know, would ever subscribe to in the first place. IOW, evolutionary theory cannot be ruled out on thermodynamic grounds, and this is completely separate from the question as to whether or not the currently accepted mechanisms of genetic change are sufficient to explain the diversity of life. Your post is merely an assertion that they cannot combined with an attempt to make it look like (or maybe a sincere misunderstanding that) "evolutionists" claim energy input automatically leads to biological complexity. Or so it reads to me, anyway. Typically, when someone invokes the "Argument to the Sun", its because a creationist (or "evolution skeptic", if you prefer) has dusted off the hoary 2nd law objection yet again. "The sun" is a pithy (and at this point, almost reflexive) answer to that specific objection, and that is it. As to accounting for the organization and complexity of biological systems...well, that is what evolutionary theory is for after all (plus significant contributions from a plethora of other fields). Srsly, this is one ridiculously dead horse. Please, just let the poor battered-beyond-all-recognition thing rest in peace.Doomsday Smith
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
04:25 AM
4
04
25
AM
PDT
Niwrad, I don't see how anything in your post means that Evolution disagrees with thermodynamics. What you seem to be saying is that the sun doesn't supply CSI. I would agree, the sun supplies energy and living systems consume energy (and generate entropy). In fact living systems tend (as far as I understand) to generate more entropy than non-living systems because as a part of their function they constantly do work (in the physics sense) and dissipate energy - there is a whole area of research into this idea called the 'Maximum Entropy Production Principle'. If CSI is unrelated to thermodynamic order then thermodynamics does not prevent evolution. Maybe I'm missing something but your argument seems to add up to: "Decreases in thermodynamic entropy are not related to CSI, therefore evolution is wrong". I get the first half, the second seems unrelated.BillB
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
01:38 AM
1
01
38
AM
PDT
Doomsday Smith #9 Evolution disagrees with ID theory AND thermodynamics. My post deals with both theories. Thermodynamic processes can locally provide decreases of entropy. These neghentropies, in the statistical sense, can be interpreted as increases of order. But this statistical "order" has nothing do to with CSI, then contributes exactly zero to increase real organization in the systems. One of the intentions of my post is indeed to carefully distinguish the two concepts: thermodynamic "order" and CSI. So to say as you "evolution is perfectly in accord with the 2nd Law" is poor comfort because is as to say "I am perfectly in accord with my bank", but when I try to get dollars from it I get nothing because my bank account has zero money.niwrad
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
12:05 AM
12
12
05
AM
PDT
DLH, you may have something to say in that regard, but Bunn most emphatically does not. His conclusion, as I posted above, is that evolution is perfectly in accord with the 2nd Law and that arguments against it on that basis are unfounded. His only caveat in that regard can be found in footnote 12:
Creating all of life in six days might be thermodynamically problematic, however.
Doomsday Smith
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
08:32 PM
8
08
32
PM
PDT
Doomsday Smith More remarkable are Bunn's previous paragraphs.
An E. coli bacterium has about 4×10^6 protein molecules.7 (This number refers not to the number of distinct types of protein, but to the total number of protein molecules in the cell.) We will find the multiplicity cost of assembling all of these molecules by first considering the multiplicity cost of assembling a single protein molecule. Imagining assembling the protein one amino acid at a time. At each step we must take an amino acid that was freely moving through the cell and place it in a specific position relative to the others that have already been assembled. If the amino acids were previously in a dilute solution in the cell, then the multiplicity loss due to each such step is approximately nQ/n, where n is the number density of amino acids and nQ is the density at which the amino acids would reach quantum degeneracy.8 This ratio is large: amino acids in a cell are far from degenerate. To assemble a protein with Na amino acids, we would repeat this process Na ?1 times, resulting in the large number Omega i/Omega f = (nQ/n)^(Na?1). For instance, if nQ/n = 10 (much too low) and Na = 300 (about the average size of a protein7), the multiplicity ratio is ~ 10^299 for the production of a single protein molecule. If we use this conservative estimate for the multiplicity change associated with the formation of a single protein molecule, we estimate the multiplicity reduction required to assemble all of the proteins in the bacterium to be ~(10^299)^4×10^6 ~ 10^10^9. If the entire 4 billion years (4×10^7 centuries) of biological evolution were required to achieve this number, we would require a multiplicity reduction of (10^10^9)1/(4×10^7) = 10^25 in each century, not 10^3.
Bunn then notes:
The chemical potential ? in a chemical reaction is of order 1 eV (~10^?19 J) or more, implying multiplicity changes of order e^40 (~10^17 for each chemical bond formed or broken at biological temperatures.
In Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence William Dembski (2005) observed: "Theoretical computer scientist Seth Lloyd has shown that 10^120 constitutes the maximal number of bit operations that the known,observable universe could have performed throughout its entire multi-billion year history." citing: Seth Lloyd, “Computational Capacity of the Universe,” Physical Review Letters 88(23)(2002):7901–4.
This number sets an upper limit on the number of agents that can be embodied in the universe and the number of events that, in principle, they can observe. Accordingly, for any context of inquiry in which S might be endeavoring to determine whether an event that conforms to a pattern T happened by chance, M·N will be bounded above by 10^120.
(Sir. Fred "Hoyle said last week that ... the origin of life ... the information content of the higher forms of life is represented by the number 10^40 000 - representing the specificity with which some 2,000 genes, each of which might be chosen from 10^20 nucleotide sequences of the appropriate length .... The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that `a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein'. "
Hoyle, F., in "Hoyle on evolution," Nature, Vol. 294, 12 November 1981, p.105. Bunn calculates an estimate of 10^1,000,000,000 magnified by the energetic bond formation requirements. Bunn's estimate is, shall we say just a wee bit larger than all the probabilistic resources in the universe! Bunn may subsequently conclude that the Second Law of Thermodynamics is safe (was there every any doubt?) However, in reading the preceding "fine print", may I suggest that Bunn has alot more to say about the probability of evolution - or should we say the astronomical improbability of evolution(to give a British understatement!)DLH
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
05:49 PM
5
05
49
PM
PDT
Nakashima at 2
I think the CSI you are looking for, the “active information” is snuck in by the Designer through the laws of physics and chemistry.
Respectfully, all "information" via the laws of physics and chemistry are still part of natural law which is explicitly excluded in identifying CSI. CSI cannot be obtained by either natural law or stochastic processes. Dembski's explanatory filter is applied to distinguish CSI from both of those with sufficiently low probability compared to the probability of all configurations over all time.DLH
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
11:28 AM
11
11
28
AM
PDT
Copy/paste glitch there: it should read "we find that the second law,"Doomsday Smith
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
11:27 AM
11
11
27
AM
PDT
Interesting article. It concludes:
If we compare this value with the rate of entropy production due to sunlight in Eq. (3), we ?nd that the second law, in the form of Eq. (1), is satis?ed as long as the time required for life to evolve on Earth is at least [equation removed] ~ 10^7 s, or less than a year. Life on Earth took four billion years to evolve, so the second law of thermodynamics is safe.
Doomsday Smith
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
An article and letter citing Styer: Evolution and the second law of thermodynamics Emory F. Bunn Department of Physics, University of Richmond, Richmond, Virginia 23173
Skeptics of biological evolution often claim that evolution requires a decrease in entropy, giving rise to a conflict with the second law of thermodynamics. This argument is fallacious because it neglects the large increase in entropy provided by sunlight striking the Earth. A recent article provided a quantitative assessment of the entropies involved and showed explicitly that there is no conflict. That article rests on an unjustified assumption about the amount of entropy reduction involved in evolution. I present a refinement of the argument that does not rely on this assumption.
LETTERS TO THE EDITOR, EVOLUTION AND EARTH'S ENTROPY Robert D. Klauber Fairfield,Iowarklauber@iowatelecom.net American Journal of Physics, Sept. 2009, Vol. 77, #9, pp. 773-773 (No abstract)DLH
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
in this vid I clam that 2nd law encourages genetic decay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpApuOy-3v0spark300c
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
Mr Niwrad, Thank you for such a long post on this topic, I really appreciate it. Thank you for clarifying that local decreases in entropy can happen, if olny at the cost of even greater entropy increases elsewhere. I was afraid my refrigerator would stop working! Thank you also for brining up the Styer paper. There are those who claim that the energy flux from the Sun is in fact a modulated source, modulated by the Earth's rotation so that it waxes and wanes every day. A very low frequency source of "information", but perhaps sufficient for your purposes. However, I think the better answer is that the Sun's energy is only one input to any reaction. I think the CSI you are looking for, the "active information" is snuck in by the Designer through the laws of physics and chemistry. This argument says that the "cause" which prefigures the "effect" is the law, not the ingredients.Nakashima
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
niwrad, In my book "The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations," John Wiley, 2005 here I dealt with this issue, my conclusions are somewhat similar to yours.Granville Sewell
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
04:39 AM
4
04
39
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply