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The ID argument from thermodynamics

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Since in my last post a commenter put on the table thermodynamics to support evolution I decided to offer my personal answer in a specific post, although UD already dealt with this issue. As known, 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLOT, also called “entropy law”) states that in a closed system the overall energy entropy ΔS never decreases spontaneously (i.e. without an external intervention). Example: in a room (considered a closed system) a hot cup of coffee on a tabletop, loosing heat, decreases in energy entropy –ΔSc (neghentropy). Around the table the environment, absorbing heat, increases energy entropy ΔSe, in such manner that the overall energy entropy of the room ΔSr doesn’t decrease. In this example SLOT can be expressed with this formula:

ΔSr = ΔSe – ΔSc = ΔQe/Te – ΔQc/Tc >= 0 (measured in Joule/Kelvin)

ΔQx are amounts of heat and Tx are absolute temperatures.

In statistical mechanics it is used also another definition of entropy. The statistical entropy H of a system, given the number W of its microscopic configurations (or microstates), can be written as:

H = ln W (measured in bits, ln is base-2 logarithm).

To correlate somehow the two definitions of entropy, S (energy entropy) and H (statistical entropy), they write the statistical entropy in the Boltzmann’s form:

H = k * ln W (k is the Boltzmann’s constant 1.38 x 10^-23 J/K)

The constant k is introduced to match the measure units.

If a system A is more improbable, more complex, than a system B it means that its microstates Wa, consistent with the specification of A (chosen from a given universe of microstates U) are less than the microstates Wb, which meet the specification of B (chosen from the same universe of microstates U):

Wa < Wb

As a consequence the statistical entropy of A is less than the statistical entropy of B:

Ha < Hb

Smaller probability signifies more information (because the information of a sequence of characters or bits is inversely proportional to its probability to occur), then system A contains more information than B. In this sense statistical entropy is a measure of the lack of information (or ignorance of). According to another similar point of view, since more the microstates more the disorder, system A is said to be more ordered and system B more disordered. Along this line, statistical entropy becomes sort of measure of disorder (and statistical neghentropy a measure of order).

Given the above scientific scenario, evolutionists elaborated a flawed argument that sounds something like this: while, according to SLOT, the overall entropy of a closed system doesn’t decrease, however there can be entropy downwards fluctuations somewhere in the system. In short, while entropy doesn’t decrease globally, it can decrease locally. Since, according to the statistical definition of entropy, a decrease of entropy implies more information and complexity, evolution (intended as a continue process increasing them) is possible locally in the planet, also if the global entropy of the universe increases. However, to justify the continuity of evolution, they need something more than some rare fluctuations, they need an endless sequence of neghentropies. They believe that the cause or origin of these series of neghentropies could well be the Sun, which continually emits heat towards the Earth, allowing the continue biological evolution of organisms (from simple forms to ever more complex forms). The Daniel F. Styer’s paper "Entropy and evolution" makes this argument quantitative and shows that just a very little part of the entropy flux from the Sun is just sufficient to allow the evolution of all organisms arisen on Earth. However the author admits that his calculations allow or permit evolution, they do not require it. As we will see below, this article is not at all a proof of evolution because it considers evolution only from the energy viewpoint and not from the organization viewpoint (which is the essential one).

Below I will provide an explanation which will be in the same time a disproof of the above evolutionist argument and the ID argument from thermodynamics against evolution.

First off, a decrease of entropy, despite the fact it can be measured in bits, is not at all what Intelligent Design Theory (IDT) calls "Complex Specified Information" (CSI). The order of neghentropy is not CSI, which is very organization. Whenever and wherever only CSI can produce organization. This is a basic statement which Norbert Wiener, just before the arise of ID, expressed so: "The amount of information in a system is a measure of its organization degree" ("Cybernetics", Introduction). When we deal with organization we always have CSI. But the entropic order is not true organization and as such cannot account for the complexity of organisms, which are highly organized systems.

A misunderstanding that causes the evolutionist’s error is that statistical entropy, Shannon information and CSI can all be measured in bits. But the simple fact that two things can be measured or evaluated by the same unit doesn’t mean that they are the same thing or do the same work. A scientist and a porter are both paid in dollars but their jobs are different. Analogously the neghentropic bits are not bits of organization, rather bits of simple order. Eventually they can yet speak of information when they deal with entropy expressed in bits, but however these bits have nothing to do with the CSI of organization. As such they cannot account for the spontaneous generation of CSI systems as organisms. As an example, the immense organization of a biological cell has nothing to do with the simple order of a crystal (which generation implies decrease of entropy).

ID theory says that organization is different from the simple energy decrease in entropy because the former implies CSI while the latter doesn’t. In fact CSI is not simple information but information that is complex and specified. The question is: can the information related to a decrease in entropy event on the Earth be complex and specified? If this event were complex and specified it should be such also its cause (as a general principle, what is contained in the effect must be potentially in its cause). The cause, according to evolutionists, is the heat coming from the Sun. Hence the question becomes: can the information related to an energy flux from the Sun be complex and specified? We can admit that this energy flux is complex, but of the kind of complexity of a long random sequence. In fact we could for example convert the measured analog data stream of the solar energy flux by means of an ADC (Analog Digital Converter). Likely the sampled sequence of bits (obtained by the analog-digital conversion) is complex (of low probability). But sure this data stream is not specified, in the sense that IDT considers specification (predefined patterns). No particular predefined pattern (of the kind we see in the biological systems) is recognizable in an energy transfer from the Sun. To claim otherwise would mean that the energy transfer is someway "modulated" or "codified" according to pre-specified patterns (as radio/TV transmissions or the sound waves of a speech are): a clear absurdity. Lacking specification in no way the energy flux from the Sun conveys CSI to the Earth. To put it bluntly, the Sun sends energy, not organization. As a consequence the Earth-is-not-a-closed-system evolutionist objection (to escape the ID argument from thermodynamics) is not valid.

Another way to consider SLOT from an ID "no free lunch" perspective is: SLOT states that order cannot come from nothingness, order must always have a source or counterpart. It is also in this sense that SLOT supports ID and denies evolution. In fact if just order needs a source to greater reason organization (which has higher rank than order) does. In a system organization can increase if the system is not closed and an external CSI source inserts it into the system to increase its internal organization. This must be the case of the ID origin of life and of species on the Earth: an external intelligent source provided CSI.

In a sense, the evolutionist "Sun argument" means that CSI can be paid by simple energy. But energy cannot create CSI. For absurd, whether energy provided CSI, for example, software houses could think of not to pay expensive computer programmers, rather they would buy power plants; publishers wouldn’t pay writers, they would buy power supplies instead, and so on. Thermodynamics states that in any energy conversion, the quantity of energy is the same before and after the conversion, but the quality decreases. Never energy conversion is 100 percent efficient. In the thermodynamics processes there is quality degradation (entropy) of energy. But if energy quality decreases to greater reason organization cannot increase, which is far more qualitative than energy.

Comments
Who is niwrad? Are you on Facebook or Twitter or Google+? I don't understand most of what you say but I can feel it's awesome because of the discussions in comments. You are awesome.iamkrishnam
July 7, 2013
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niwrad:
Don’t defend the indefensible. “X gives rise to the increase in order on Y” is fully different from “X powers Y” and the guys at Biologos Foundation know it.
I e-mailed the Biologos Foundation about this quote:
With biological evolution however, the system being considered is not the universe, but the Earth. And the Earth is not an isolated system. This means that an increase in order can occur on Earth as long as there is an energy input — most notably the light of the sun. Therefore, energy input from the sun could give rise to the increase in order on Earth INCLUDING COMPLEX MOLECULES AND ORGANISMS.
They (after a long delay) replied to say:
. . . You're right that nowhere in the Questions' response were we making a statement about 'information' being delivered to Earth via light beams from the sun. We meant only to clarify that the Earth itself is not a closed system, as is often mistakenly assumed in conversations about the 2nd law.
BillB
October 22, 2009
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R0b #20
If a cell has more CSI than a crystal, it is not because the cell has complicated organization while the crystal has simple order.
The order and formation of crystals is perfectly explainable by the laws of chemistry and physics. The same thing cannot be stated for the organization and arise of cells. The same word "organization" recalls the concept of "organ" (functional sub-system). In fact one of the aspects of organization is functional hierarchy, i.e. a tree of nested functional sub-systems. It is undeniable that a cell is a functional hierarchy and a crystal is not. Also if we consider the three components of CSI there is no comparison between crystals and cells. The content of information of cells is far greater than the information content of crystals. It is sufficient to consider just only the information content of DNA and RNA molecules to understand that nothing similar exists in crystals. The complexity of cells is far greater than the complexity of crystals. This is also true when we examine both from the point of view of Kolmogoroff complexity. Crystals are composed of few configurations that repeat always equal many times. This lowers Kolmogoroff complexity of crystals to a minimum. In fact it is as we had a string of few characters that repeats many times. It is easy to see that a short algorithm can easily output such concatenation. And in fact that is exactly what physical and chemical laws do. Laws, from the perspective of algorithmic information theory (AIT), are algorithms. Differently from crystals the algorithmic complexity of cells is very high because their organs and their processes (if we model them as characters strings) are not outputable by algorithms. The specification in cells can be tied to the many different functions and processes that a cell must work out. Nothing similar to what happens in crystals that have not different functions. As a consequence crystals have little specification. To sum up, no complexity, no specification, no information. How can one claim that crystals have CSI as cells? To my knowledge, and according to the above ascertainments, there is no better synonymous of CSI than the term "organization". ID theory, information theory, AIT, cybernetics and informatics (fields where organization is studied and designed) agree well about the big difference of organization between crystals and cells.niwrad
October 18, 2009
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osteonectin #82 The idea of discrediting physics is very far from me and I don’t understand what caused such false impression to you. I have an high consideration of physics and think it (and any hard science when is not biased by prejudices) as friend of ID. Moreover I have an high consideration of many physicists and, specifically, for Maxwell my admiration cannot be higher (not only for his important contributions to thermodynamics). I challenge any one to find something in this post (and other posts of mine) that is offensive to physics. The fact itself that I decided to post here about thermodynamics and ID (considering the former allied of the latter) is a proof of that. Besides the fact itself that I consider Maxwell’s demon (which some consider an unimportant imaginary trick only) very seriously and say it can suggest interesting scientific and philosophical remarks is another proof of that. Sorry for my fault in spelling Maxwell’s name. Obviously it doesn’t depend by the keyboard (I always use US keyboards and don’t like IT ones because the former are more apt for scientific work in general while the latter for writing Italian prose only).niwrad
October 18, 2009
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Mr osteonectin, correct-ly Let's keep adverbs and adjectives straight while criticizing other people's spelling. This subject makes me think about Chomsky's idea that language is an organ of the mind. Since it is a human universal, I would tend to agree that there is something genetic that makes language develop. It has obvious survival value in a social group to communicate better than the next guy, or for a tribe of talkes to expand at the cost of a tribe of grunters. But the selection pressure seems to have let up after we were all babbling. So we are stuck with language organs good enough for "Where was the mammoth?" or Roses are red, violets are blue, all my base, are belong to you but Strunk and White needs to be taught.Nakashima
October 18, 2009
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niwrad @76: Are Italian keyboards different from American? Otherwise I would suggest that you try at least to spell Maxwell's name correct while discrediting physics.osteonectin
October 17, 2009
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Nakashima, I find it ironic that you can speak favorably of the RNA world hypothesis, and in the same note effectively disparage my point about "mere chemistry". It was Dr. Leslie Orgel, one who has advocated the RNA world perspective, that early on pointed out that living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Both living and non-living things have mere chemistry. Mere chemistry does not explain what we are as distinct from the rest of the universe, and Orgel recognized this. Living organisms have something more than mere chemistry -- something not found anywhere else in the universe other than in the artifacts of intelligent agents -- that is the only other place it is found. The challenge of abiogenesis/origin of life research is to explain how a universe completely devoid of specified complexity could give birth to this in the form of living organisms -- supposedly without intelligent intervention (unlike every other case of specified complexity). That specified complexity requires configurational work. There is plenty of energy to do work. Where is the mechanism that can convert the energy into this type of configurational work realistically in available time? That is the thermodynamic missing piece. BTW, while functional proteins are prohibitively rare among possible amino acid sequences, symbolic representations of functional proteins as a sequence of bases in RNA (or DNA) are guaranteed to be at least as rare among possible base sequences of an appropriate length to represent the protein. Under realistic considerations, they are likely to be even more rare. So the problem isn't easier by doing the configurational work within RNA. It is actually harder.
When you bring in the word ‘meaningful’, I have to ask – “to whom”?
"Meaningful" in this context means translating an encoded sequence into a functional realized structure. I would have thought that is obvious by now. What is mysterious about that?
You reject a length of RNA as containing no symbolic information, but lo! it really contains the compressed works of the classical Vogon poets.
You say that as though it helps your position, but it makes it worse. Much worse. Your statement hints at the truth -- and it is true -- that the symbolic meaning of a sequence is extrinsic, not intrinsic. The same sequence could mean one thing or another or another -- depending on what translation is applied. The "meaning" comes through the translation. It is not inherent in the sequence itself. The consequence is that a sequence has no symbolic meaning of itself, independent of applying an appropriate translation convention matched to the original encoded meaning. In other words, you can juggle the order of bases in RNA for billions of years, but of itself it doesn't ever inherently mean anything symbolically. By one convention a sequence could potentially correspond to a protein and by another convention to your address and by the overwhelming majority of conventions complete gibberish -- absolute nonsense -- just random noise or static. This means that explaining symbolic meaning requires accounting for the origin of four things. All are required to have symbolic meaning. 1. The stored symbolic sequence (e.g. DNA or perhaps RNA). But not just a random sequence of bases. It must be encoded according to ... 2. A specific convention for translation to the realized meaning (e.g. one of the genetic codes), by... 3. A translation mechanism (e.g. a ribosome or something else; if something less, it still needs to produce..) 4. The meaning, i.e. a realized functional output of the translation (e.g. a working functional protein, not just a random sequence of amino acids that connect).ericB
October 17, 2009
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Mr ericB, When you bring in the word 'meaningful', I have to ask - "to whom"? You reject a length of RNA as containing no symbolic information, but lo! it really contains the compressed works of the classical Vogon poets. So the materialist answer to the desire for meaning is that all of these RNA sequences _are_ meaningful - to other pieces of RNA, or to stretches of amino acids strung together and folded. Of course, ensembles of RNA and proteins only outcompete each other for the scarce resource of feedstock chemicals if they mean something to each other, the metabolic cyles that kick the RNA world forward in terms of complexity. So we could have a large series of systems such as you A and B, above. Each contains symbolic information, meaningful to some party or other. Vogon poets, Youtube videos, whatever. But one of those systems might be remarkable because the meaning of each part of the system comes from another part of the same system. To say "That is mere chemistry." is to denigrate what we ourselves are. After just scratching the surface of chemistry in terms of our global knowledge (and my personal knowledge), "mere" isn't a word I would use about chemistry. "That is awe inspiring chemistry!" is more like it.Nakashima
October 17, 2009
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CJYman at 59, Excellent post. Nakashima, sorry I could not respond sooner, but that post by CJYman is on the mark. Consider two systems A and B, each holding exactly the same atom types in exactly the same quantities, with exactly the same number of chemical bonds and exactly the same mass. Both systems are obeying the laws of chemistry. Nevertheless, one of them may be rich with encoded symbolic information, while the other has no symbolic information at all. The laws of chemistry make no requirement for symbolic information. None whatsoever. Notice again, both systems A and B satisfy the laws of chemistry, yet one is devoid of symbolic information. Symbolic information is essentially something more than "X obeys the laws of chemical reactions." That is why it will never be enough to show merely that by the laws of chemistry there is potential to connect amino acids together. That is not the issue. A functional protein is much more than just a random string of amino acids. Functional protein sequences are exceedingly rare with the space of possible amino acid sequences, and (apart from a recipe driven system) there is no chemical requirement that an amino acid sequence should be a functional protein. It can just be amino acids and/or other stuff joined together in whatever configuration happens to happen. Furthermore, the recipe for a functional protein, encoded as symbolic information according to the same language convention as an associated and implemented translation machine, is much, much, much more than a unrelated sequence of RNA bases. This is the difference between mere chemistry and symbolic information. Chemistry allows ink to make marks on paper. Ink has the chemical potential to be used in a writing system to express symbolic information. But chemistry itself makes no requirement that ink should do this. A meaningless blotch satisfies chemistry just as well as a sentence, and blotches are easily accomplished by undirected processes. The missing mechanism is not the potential for ink to associate with paper. That is mere chemistry. The missing mechanism is the one that converts energy to work that satisfies the configurational requirements (beyond the requirements of chemistry) of a system of meaningful symbolic information and translation.ericB
October 17, 2009
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Mr ScottAndrews, Why do you restrict definitions of function to living systems? We've had a lot of discussions here about function, and I've never heard anyone introduce that limitation before. Watches aren't alive, but they have a function, to tell time. If we choose a functon, such as "catalyse ATP formation at rate greater than X" (making that up) then we can count all the molecules of any structure at all, organic or inorganic, that have that function.Nakashima
October 17, 2009
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Nakashima: They are more organized than the feedstock molecules, so functional organization has increased. Ultimately, an experiment that begins and ends with RNA is underwhelming with regard to the subject at hand. I'm still not the least bit clear on what living system these more functional RNA molecules participated in, without which they could hardly be called "functional" in any non-hypothetical sense.ScottAndrews
October 17, 2009
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I am glad to have initiated this discussion and to see the participation is good. Thanks to all the smart commenters for their interesting contributes and challenging objections. Honest discussion can help to find truth. I am truly convinced the relations between thermodynamics and ID theory are very deep and involve some of the more fundamental questions one can ask about the cosmos. Please feel free to not abandon this discussion also when the thread will disappear from the top page of UD. Thank you. ~~ It seem to me an important questions is: Maxvell’s demon does violate or does not violate SLoT? Just here not all commenters agree. In my opinion Maxvell’s demon can be considered in two main senses: (1) a machine, an artificial system (one-way filter); (2) a thermodynamic metaphor of intelligence. (1) Maxvell’s demon as a machine. But there are many kinds of machines, and then we have again to distinguish. (A) Maxvell’s demon as a mechanical-thermo machine. In this case I agree with Monastyrski #71 when says "the decrease in entropy caused by the intelligent demon is more than compensated for by an increase in the demon’s own entropy". SLoT is not violated. (B) Maxvell’s demon as a computer. If the Maxvell’s demon is a computer for which the Landauer’s principle is involved, according to givemeabreak #75, there is no increase of entropy because computation per se does not consume energy. SLoT is violated. (2) Maxvell’s demon as intelligence. But what is intelligence in the first place? This is one of the above fundamental and difficult questions. Without knowing what intelligence is how can we to speak about Maxvell’s demon, which is one of its symbols? Intelligence can be considered in two main senses: (A) physical intelligence; (B) pure intelligence or metaphysical intelligence. (A) If intelligence is a physical agent then energy is involved. SLoT is not violated. (B) If intelligence is a metaphysical entity then no energy is involved. SLoT is violated. Feel free to express your comments about my four cases (1A, 1B, 2A, 2B) and eventually provide your ones (please continue the enumeration accordingly to a coherent tree of hypothesis, e.g. 1C, 3A ... ).niwrad
October 17, 2009
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re #74 Actually there are some very interesting exceptions to the second law: it should be noted that, counter-intuitive to materialistic thought, a computer does not consume energy during computation and will only consume energy when information is erased from it. This counter-intuitive fact is formally known as Landauer's Principle. If a computer had unlimited storage space it would never consume energy. Erasing information is a thermodynamically irreversible process that increases the entropy of a system. Landauer's principle Of Note: if no information is erased, computation may in principle be achieved which is thermodynamically reversible,,, In 2003 Weiss and Weiss came to the conclusion that information processing by the brain has to be based on Landauer's principle. In 2008 this has been empirically confirmed by a group of neurobiologists.,,, Landauer’s Principle has also been used as the foundation for a new theory of dark energy, proposed by Gough (2008). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle The fact that our "mind/brain" must work on Landauer's principle, and is thus semi-immune from the entropy that has such complete dominion over all the "material" of this universe, strongly suggests that our "soul/mind" is a unique entity which is transcendent of the material brain, just as Theism has always suggested. ,,, As well, the ability of a computer to "find answers" without ever, hypothetically, consuming energy strongly suggests that the answers/truth already exist in reality, and in fact, when taken to its logical conclusion, is very suggestive to the fact that the "truth of Logos (John 1:1)" is ultimately the foundation of our "material" reality in the first place. John 1:1-3 In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. (of note: "Word" in Greek is "Logos", and is the root word from which we get our word "Logic")givemeabreak
October 16, 2009
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Niwrad:
Maxwell’s demon is a thought experiment and is fictitious, nevertheless it clearly proves that intelligence can counter entropy in principle.
It doesn't prove anything of the sort. The overwhelming consensus is that everything, intelligent or not, is subject to the 2nd law. The contradiction you've read into my post is as imaginary as Maxwell's Demon. All local entropy decreases are paid for by global increases. The demon cannot violate SLoT every time he types or sorts a molecule or whatever. So, in that respect, he adds nothing to the thought experiment and can easily be replaced by an (equally imaginary) perfect filter.Doomsday Smith
October 16, 2009
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Mr DiBagno, I agree, it is wonderful to see a scientist pursue a line of reasoning over years and years, working out details, taking advantage of technical advances, etc. Yarus' writing style is also quite clear. That paper is so recent I was quite happy to find it.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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Mr Nakashima, I have read them, and I am exuberant! (Yarus et al.; that is delicious!)Adel DiBagno
October 16, 2009
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niwrad,
Maxwell’s demon is a thought experiment and is fictitious, nevertheless it clearly proves that intelligence can counter entropy in principle.
I'm not so sure it proves that. Indeed, it has been demonstrated mathematically that the decrease in entropy caused by the "intelligent" demon is more than compensated for by an increase in the demon's own entropy: linkMonastyrski
October 16, 2009
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Mr DiBagno, Each research paper provides a simple result and then extrapolates wildly from it. Irrational exuberance? The words simply bubble off the page! ;) Read them and see.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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Mr ScottAndrews, They transcribe DNA? Hardly the only function of RNA. As the other paper referenced for Mr ericB showed, RNA functions as a template for amino acids. It can also function as an enzyme for itself or for other RNA strands.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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Mr niwrad, I think you can combine A and B as "a perfect one-way filter devoid of any intellect whatsoever would serve just as well and loses in the end and entropy wins again". In other words "just as well" == "loses". Not that that is such a great result. The main point is that there are other approaches, besides intelligence, to attacking the demon thought experiment. Or rather, if a perfect one-way filter is intelligent, so is all chemistry intelligent to the same degree, and you are back to the TE position.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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A impressionable reader might conclude from this that at least once, RNA had been observed organizing from chemicals by itself. That would be quite impressive.
Observing The Intelligent Designer organizing RNA from C,H,O,N, and P would impress me.Adel DiBagno
October 16, 2009
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I think the RNA nucleotides constructed in the referenced paper are obviously functional They transcribe DNA?ScottAndrews
October 16, 2009
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Each research paper provides a simple result and then extrapolates wildly from it.
Irrational exuberance?Adel DiBagno
October 16, 2009
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Mr CJYman, I think the RNA nucleotides constructed in the referenced paper are obviously functional, we use the same structures in our bodies all the time. They are more organized than the feedstock molecules, so functional organization has increased. That is what Mr ScottAndrews didn't think there was evidence for.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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R0b #45 and Doomsday Smith #50 Maxwell’s demon is a thought experiment and is fictitious, nevertheless it clearly proves that intelligence can counter entropy in principle. That is what matters, because makes the Maxwell’s demon an important conceptual bridge between thermodynamics and ID theory and shows their perfect agreement. I see a serious contradiction in your position: from a side you say (A) "a perfect one-way filter devoid of any intellect whatsoever would serve just as well" and from the other side you say (B) "the [intelligent] demon loses in the end and entropy wins again". You cannot have it both ways: A true and B true. In fact if intelligence loses against entropy (B true) to greater reason an artificial device (which is lower than intelligence) loses (A false). If a device serves ok (A true) to greater reason intelligence (which is higher than a device) works ok (B false). A contradictory position cannot refute the truth of my initial statement.niwrad
October 16, 2009
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Nakashima: I’ve tried to respond to your questions, which have shifted with every response. These last references are responses to your assertion that there are ‘no’ experiments that show the creation of functional organization. As I repeatedly claim that there is no evidence indicating the self-organization of life, your responses have repeatedly shifted to various non-answers. If I appear to be shifting, it is because I address each response individually. Each research paper provides a simple result and then extrapolates wildly from it. Observe: They show that RNA can form abiotically, and lengthen, in environments that protect the forming strands from degradation by UV. A impressionable reader might conclude from this that at least once, RNA had been observed organizing from chemicals by itself. That would be quite impressive. But it's never happened. We need to draw the line between thinking that a thing could happen and having reasonable scientific evidence. That's neither changing the subject nor "sniffing."ScottAndrews
October 16, 2009
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Nakashima: "These last references are responses to your assertion that there are ‘no’ experiments that show the creation of functional organization." The functional organization that requires explanation is an organization which can be defined as "a functionally specified spatial arrangement which is not defined by law -- mathematical descriptions of regularities that emerge from the physical/material/measurable properties of matter and energy." If you can show an experiment that does not begin with either intelligence or any functional organization and yet arrives at such then we have something to discuss. Until then, a belief in such "self-organization" is purely faith based. But, of course, there is nothing wrong with that as science requires faith that a given hypothesis will produce results until that hypothesis does indeed begin producing results. However, the hypothesis becomes more so of a religious belief when a person clings to such a faith based hypothesis when the evidence points in the opposite direction. ie: attempting to shoehorn organization not defined by law or best explained by chance into a law and chance based explanation. Its kinda like observing patterns (such as data collected from atmospheric noise - www.random.org) which pass the majority of statistical tests for randomness, and which also have no clear regularities, and attempting to explain those patterns in terms of law as one would explain planetary orbits or the order within a crystal.CJYman
October 16, 2009
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Mr ScottAndrews, What bearing can this paper have on the undirected chemical organization of life when it begins with existing RNA? Perhaps you haven't been actually reading the references I've been providing. They show that RNA can form abiotically, and lengthen, in environments that protect the forming strands from degradation by UV. This paper merely shows that amino acids, which also form abiotically, can directly template against a strand of RNA. Thus strings of AAs can be formed into proteins without any special machinery to assist, such as a ribosome. Since Mr ericB was asking about mechanism, I pointed out this paper. The mechanism of affinity means that sequences of RNA are correlated, loosely or tightly, with proteins. Whereas energy from the sun created the stacked nucleotides and the free amino acids, it is the laws of physics and chemistry that create the affinities. Energy is transduced via chemistry into order. Beautiful, isn't it? The gradual tightening of these correlations is the formation of the genetic code and the creation of information, which was where Mr niwrad and I started this discussion on the previous thread. It was quite interesting to see a fragment of the genetic code table filled with probabilities in that paper, just as Mr niwrad and I had been discussing.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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Nakashima: "Please cite the experiment that shows in scintific terms which part of life _isn’t_ essentially a chemical reaction." Woah, hold it right there. You're getting off track. Mere transfer of energy and chemical reactions are not what needs to be explained. If you think that the fact that life follows the laws of chemistry can account for its organization, then that is like stating that because my computer only operates upon physical reactions then the laws of physics can account for my computer's organization -- which is in fact not defined by laws of physics. Refer to my post #34 and the example given referencing lightning, glass, and the organization of a TV. Of course every reaction in life is either chemical or physical (based on laws of physics) or quantum mechanical, and so is every "reaction" in my computer and TV. Once they are all sufficiently organized, life and technology follow laws of nature. This is not in dispute. What needs explanation is the organization which is not defined by law -- mathematical descriptions of regularity emerging from the physical/material/measurable properties of matter and energy. And in reference to the transfer of energy, much more is needed than merely transfer of energy in order for life to operate. Again, yes life can be described in terms of transfer of energy and chemical reactions (along with physical and quantum reactions) but even that is not sufficient. The type of life and technology that we have been discussing also necessarily requires the organization that I have been drawing your attention to and which requires an explanation. I will now cite George Gaylord Simpson and William S. Beck, Life: An Introduction to Biology, 2nd ed. (London: Routledge and Kegan, 1965), 145, to put the relationship between 2LOT, life, organization, and information into perspective: “In the face of the universal tendency for order to be lost, the complex organization of the living organism can be maintained only if work – involving the expenditure of energy – is performed to conserve the order. The organism is constantly adjusting, repairing, replacing, and this requires energy. But the preservation of the complex, improbable organization of the living creature needs more than energy for the work. It calls for information or instructions on how the energy should be expended to maintain the improbable organization. The idea of information necessary for the maintenance and, as we shall see, creation of living systems is of great utility in approaching the biological problems of reproduction.”CJYman
October 16, 2009
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Mr ScottAndrews, That life is essentially chemical reactions is a quite parsimonious place to start our inquiry. Any evidence to the contrary would be appreciated. I've tried to respond to your questions, which have shifted with every response. These last references are responses to your assertion that there are 'no' experiments that show the creation of functional organization. You might have responded that the results were 'not functional enough' or 'not organized enough' to contradict your assertion, but to instead dismiss them by sniffing that they are essentially chemical reactions does not honor your own position. But please, continue to change the subject.Nakashima
October 16, 2009
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