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The Inconsistencies of Materialism

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Materialism — the belief that everything that happens is the result of the action of the basic laws of physics on the basic particles of physics — leads its adherents to some conclusions that most do not really believe but are obliged to assert. 

For example, they often claim there is no real free will, that everything we do is determined by the laws of physics.   But if they really believed this, why would they bother trying to convince the rest of us?  Whether or not we will accept their conclusion is completely beyond our control.   Certainly our behavior is influenced, maybe to a large degree, by our heredity and environment but no one would possibly conclude that he has no control over his own behavior if he were not forced to this conclusion by materialist philosophy.

Materialists are also forced—if they are consistent — to believe that there is no real good or evil, for how can some actions be “good” and others “evil,” if everything we do is beyond our control and determined by the laws of physics?   While there is substantial disagreement among humans over the details of moral codes even atheists know in their hearts that there is a difference between good and evil.  Have you ever known an atheist who did not appeal to morality to justify his actions, or to criticize those who disagree with him?

Materialists are also forced to believe that human brains are just advanced computing machines, and this leads to one of the most interesting inconsistencies of materialism.   The current ID debate can be reduced to the question:  is everything we see today simply the result of unintelligent causes or is an intelligent cause required to explain some things?   (Even though the big bang theory has shown us that the laws of physics and the particles of physics are themselves the result of some cause beyond our universe, the debate is still over whether this first cause is intelligent or unintelligent. And even though quantum mechanics tells us that there is a “supernatural” component — forever beyond the ability of science to explain or predict — to all natural phenomena, the debate is still over whether or not this supernatural component is entirely random, i.e., unintelligent.)

But what does “intelligent” mean?   Since humans are the only known intelligent beings in the universe, when we argue that a cause is intelligent, we can only mean “like humans.”  But if you really believe that human intelligence, like everything else in the universe, is just matter in motion what difference does it make if a cause is like humans or like rocks?  Both are just matter in motion.   A consistent materialist would have to conclude that the ID debate is over a trivial distinction.  But we all — including materialists — know that humans are not like rocks and so the debate is significant.

Please see my videos Why Evolution is Different and A Summary of the Evidence for Intelligent Design.

Comments
The denial of free will, agent causation, and/or intelligent causation by atheistic naturalists is irrational. As Paul Nelson noted, methodological naturalism "entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent.",,, "some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for."
Do You Like SETI? Fine, Then Let’s Dump Methodological Naturalism - Paul Nelson - September 24, 2014 Excerpt: Assessing the Damage MN (methodological naturalism) Does to Freedom of Inquiry Epistemology — how we know — and ontology — what exists — are both affected by methodological naturalism. If we say, "We cannot know that a mind caused x," laying down an epistemological boundary defined by MN, then our ontology comprising real causes for x won’t include minds. MN entails an ontology in which minds are the consequence of physics, and thus, can only be placeholders for a more detailed causal account in which physics is the only (ultimate) actor. You didn’t write your email to me. Physics did, and informed you of that event after the fact. "That’s crazy," you reply, "I certainly did write my email." Okay, then — to what does the pronoun "I" in that sentence refer? Your personal agency; your mind. Are you supernatural?,,, You are certainly an intelligent cause, however, and your intelligence does not collapse into physics. (If it does collapse — i.e., can be reduced without explanatory loss — we haven’t the faintest idea how, which amounts to the same thing.) To explain the effects you bring about in the world — such as your email, a real pattern — we must refer to you as a unique agent. If ID satisfied MN as that philosophical doctrine is usually stated, the decades-long dispute over both wouldn’t have happened. The whole point of invoking MN (by the National Center for Science Education, for instance, or other anti-ID organizations) is to try to exclude ID, before a debate about the evidence can occur, by indicting ID for inferring non-physical causes. That’s why pushing the MN emergency button is so useful to opponents of ID. Violate MN, if MN defines science, and the game is over. ,,, some feature of "intelligence" must be irreducible to physics, because otherwise we’re back to physics versus physics, and there’s nothing for SETI to look for. https://evolutionnews.org/2014/09/do_you_like_set/
Besides being irrational, the denial of the reality of free will, agent causality, and/or intelligent causation, by atheistic naturalists is also unscientific. As George Ellis noted, "if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense."
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
And indeed the detail of free will, as Ellis noted, does not make any sense. Besides not making any 'common sense', it also does not make any 'scientific sense'. For prime example, In order for Einstein to be able to formulate the theories of relativity, Einstein had to, via his free will, choose the correct mathematical axioms. As Douglas S. Robertson noted, "Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information."
Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test - Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: Chaitin’s Algorithmic Information Theory shows that information is conserved under formal mathematical operations and, equivalently, under computer operations. This conservation law puts a new perspective on many familiar problems related to artificial intelligence. For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf
And while we have abundant evidence that human mathematicians, via their free will, can create new axioms in mathematics, atheistic naturalists simply have no evidence that it is possible for computers to imitate genuine mathematical insight. As professor of mathematics James Franklin noted, "the intellect (is) immaterial and immortal. If today’s naturalists do not wish to agree with that, there is a challenge for them. ‘Don’t tell me, show me’: build an artificial intelligence system that imitates genuine mathematical insight."
The mathematical world – James Franklin – 7 April 2014 Excerpt:,,, the intellect (is) immaterial and immortal. If today’s naturalists do not wish to agree with that, there is a challenge for them. ‘Don’t tell me, show me’: build an artificial intelligence system that imitates genuine mathematical insight. There seem to be no promising plans on the drawing board.,,, - James Franklin is professor of mathematics at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. https://aeon.co/essays/aristotle-was-right-about-mathematics-after-all
In fact, as Gregory Chaitin, via extension of Godel's incompleteness theorem, has demonstrated, "an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms."
The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: Unlike Gödel’s approach, mine is based on measuring information and showing that some mathematical facts cannot be compressed into a theory because they are too complicated. This new approach suggests that what Gödel discovered was just the tip of the iceberg: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms. https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/The_Limits_of_Reason_Chaitin_2006.pdf
Scientifically speaking, this is NOT a minor problem for atheists. As the late Stephen Weinberg, an atheist, honestly admitted to Richard Dawkins, "I don't think one should underestimate the fix we are in. That in the end we will not be able to explain the world. That we will have some set of laws of nature (that) we will not be able to derive them on the grounds simply of mathematical consistency. Because we can already think of mathematically consistent laws that don't describe the world as we know it. And we will always be left with a question 'why are the laws nature what they are rather than some other laws?'. And I don't see any way out of that."
"I don't think one should underestimate the fix we are in. That in the end we will not be able to explain the world. That we will have some set of laws of nature (that) we will not be able to derive them on the grounds simply of mathematical consistency. Because we can already think of mathematically consistent laws that don't describe the world as we know it. And we will always be left with a question 'why are the laws nature what they are rather than some other laws?'. And I don't see any way out of that. The fact that the constants of nature are suitable for life, which is clearly true, we observe,,," (Weinberg then comments on the multiverse conjecture of atheists) "No one has constructed a theory in which that is true. I mean,, the (multiverse) theory would be speculative, but we don't even have a theory in which that speculation is mathematically realized. But it is a possibility." Steven Weinberg – as stated to Richard Dawkins at the 8:15 minute mark of the following video Leonard Susskind – Richard Dawkins and Steven Weinberg – 1 in 10^120 Cosmological Constant points to intelligent design – video https://youtu.be/z4E_bT4ecgk?t=495
And whereas atheists, as the late Steven Weinberg himself honestly admitted, are in a pretty bad 'fix' in regards to there being "an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms", Christian Theists have a ready solution for this. Namely, as Bruce Gordon stated, “the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them.”
Bruce Gordon: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
bornagain77
February 23, 2023
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DogDoc @6 Sewell wrote about materialists:
… they often claim there is no real free will, that everything we do is determined by the laws of physics.
You objected that modern physics does not “assume deterministic causality”, and you further added that “quantum physics is not deterministic in the way Newtonian physics is.” Is your point that there are undetermined physical events not describable by laws of physics? If so, can you explain their relevance to free will?Origenes
February 23, 2023
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Querius @7
So, someone else who “perceives” that animal abuse is perfectly fine, such as spectator dogfights, is as far as you’re concerned, welcome to their “perception,” regardless of your revulsion, right?
I just got through making crystal clear that I perceive animal abuse to be horrible, so of course I do not believe anyone is welcome to abuse animals, and I sincerely hope you agree.
Thus, you won’t have any grounds to condemn someone whose perception is different than yours, since it’s simply a matter of individual “perception.” Is that what you’re promoting?
We all have every reason to condemn animal abuse, or the intentional infliction of suffering on any sentient being. Since I perceive (no scare quotes needed) that abuse is wrong, I am compelled to condemn it.
This is where I differ from you.
Good grief - you think it's okay to abuse animals? That's horrible!
I wouldn’t attempt to rationalize someone else’s cruelty to a poor, trusting dog by asserting that “I could never choose to perceive it otherwise.”
On one hand I'm relieved to see you don't mean you'd actually condone abuse. But you're confused about my position. I am stating as a fact that I would be unable to simply choose whether or not I perceive abuse as wrong, any more than I could choose to perceive the sky as green. I can't imagine how you think that could "rationalize someone else's cruelty".
Instead, I’d say that person was a monster and report them to the authorities!
Excellent, we agree 100%! Now, what is it that you think we're in disagreement about again? If scholars found a lost chapter of the Bible which showed that God wants you to torture puppies for your pleasure, my guess is that you would still perceive that act as abhorrent. I know I would.dogdoc
February 22, 2023
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Determinism is dead as far as we know. Let's not circle back. Quantum physics killed it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminism Yet free will cannot be killed as simply and elegantly as determinism has been. If ever. This silly debate is over for now. Free will won by KO.Nonlin.org
February 22, 2023
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Dogdoc @6,
I am horrified at animal abuse, yes. I do not think of such behavior, or of my reaction to it, as transcendent. I perceive it as vile and disgusting and offensive, and I could never choose to perceive it otherwise.
So, someone else who "perceives" that animal abuse is perfectly fine, such as spectator dogfights, is as far as you're concerned, welcome to their "perception," regardless of your revulsion, right? Thus, you won't have any grounds to condemn someone whose perception is different than yours, since it's simply a matter of individual "perception." Is that what you're promoting? This is where I differ from you. I wouldn't attempt to rationalize someone else's cruelty to a poor, trusting dog by asserting that "I could never choose to perceive it otherwise." Instead, I'd say that person was a monster and report them to the authorities! -QQuerius
February 22, 2023
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Querius @3,
Yet I have no doubt that you’re instinctively horrified at how some people mistreat their dogs. I don’t think you’d simply wave off these horrors merely as your perceptions rather than transcendent and intrinsic.
I am horrified at animal abuse, yes. I do not think of such behavior, or of my reaction to it, as transcendent. I perceive it as vile and disgusting and offensive, and I could never choose to perceive it otherwise.
What types of causality does modern physics assume?
I don't think physics assumes anything about causality per se. Rather, it describes observable regularities in nature and attempts to build models that predict and explain them. But obviously quantum physics is not deterministic in the way Newtonian physics is.dogdoc
February 22, 2023
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DogDoc & PM1 Nice commentary. I look forward to the fear and loathing that will likely result…….chuckdarwin
February 22, 2023
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DogDoc @1
Modern physics does not include contra-causal mental powers, but neither does it assume deterministic causality.
What types of causality does modern physics assume?Origenes
February 22, 2023
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Docdoc @1
Good and evil are perceptions, not divine commands.
Yet I have no doubt that you're instinctively horrified at how some people mistreat their dogs. I don't think you'd simply wave off these horrors merely as your perceptions rather than transcendent and intrinsic. If not, do you treat abused animals only because you're paid to care? PyrrhoManica1 @2,
No one at Uncommon Descent who fulminates against “materialism” understands what it means.
Would you claim that you know everything that's physically knowable? If not, then how could you claim that you're NOT also in the group that doesn't understand materialism? Would you claim that every concept in mathematics must necessarily be physically instantiatable to exist? -QQuerius
February 22, 2023
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@1 No one at Uncommon Descent who fulminates against "materialism" understands what it means. They're just attacking a figment of their own imaginations. Leave them do it.PyrrhoManiac1
February 22, 2023
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For example, they often claim there is no real free will, that everything we do is determined by the laws of physics.
Modern physics does not include contra-causal mental powers, but neither does it assume deterministic causality. Libertarian free will is incoherent (on what basis could an uncaused will make decisions?) but not because of determinism.
But if they really believed this, why would they bother trying to convince the rest of us?
This one is always so funny. If determinism were true, then the reason people would try to convince others of its truth is, obviously, because their actions are determined!
Whether or not we will accept their conclusion has already been pre-determined, it is completely beyond our control.
Exactly, just as the materialists' arguments would be!
Certainly our behavior is influenced, maybe to a large degree, by our heredity and environment but no one would possibly conclude that he has no control over his own behavior if he were not forced to this conclusion by materialist philosophy.
Obviously our physical and behavioral traits result from heritable and environmental factors, because there is nothing else, but that doesn't mean each individual doesn't control their own actions. It's just that the word "control" here does not imply causa sui, which is impossible.
Materialists are also forced—if they are consistent—to believe that there is no real good or evil, for how can some actions be “good” and others “evil,” if everything we do is beyond our control and determined by the laws of physics?
Good and evil are perceptions, not divine commands.
While there is substantial disagreement among humans over the details of moral codes even atheists know in their hearts that there is a difference between good and evil.
Of course! But atheists know things more in their brains than in their hearts :-)
Have you ever known an atheist who did not appeal to morality to justify his actions, or to criticize those who disagree with him?
Of course not!
Materialists are also forced to believe that human brains are just advanced computing machines, and this leads to one of the most interesting inconsistencies of materialism.
No, materialism does not actually imply that thought is algorithmic (there may be non-computable effects of the sort Roger Penrose suggests, for example).
The current ID debate can be reduced to the question: is everything we see today simply the result of unintelligent causes or is an intelligent cause required to explain some things?
What does "intelligent" mean in this context? AI does things that would be called intelligent if a human being did them, but it is completely algorithmic.
But what does “intelligent” mean?
EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!
Since humans are the only known intelligent beings in the universe,
Sort of a ridiculous thing to say, really - watch some videos on animal intelligence, they're not hard to find on the internet :-). I would say that every living organism is intelligent (and in all of our experience, every intelligent thing is a living organism).
...when we argue that a cause is intelligent, we can only mean “like humans.”
Ok, which specific abilities do you choose as the criteria?
But if you really believe that human intelligence, like everything else in the universe, is just matter in motion what difference does it make if a cause is like humans or like rocks? Both are just matter in motion!
This is a tiresome strawman - nobody believes that everything is just matter in motion, of course - that is such an anachronistic view of physics. Perhaps you believe everything reduces to fire, earth, water, and air?
A consistent materialist would have to conclude that the ID debate is over a trivial distinction.
Actually ID never defines what it means by "intelligence", so it's actually a debate about why anthropomorphic religious projections don't count as scientific explanations of anything.dogdoc
February 22, 2023
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