Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Inconsistencies of Materialism

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Materialism — the belief that everything that happens is the result of the action of the basic laws of physics on the basic particles of physics — leads its adherents to some conclusions that most do not really believe but are obliged to assert. 

For example, they often claim there is no real free will, that everything we do is determined by the laws of physics.   But if they really believed this, why would they bother trying to convince the rest of us?  Whether or not we will accept their conclusion is completely beyond our control.   Certainly our behavior is influenced, maybe to a large degree, by our heredity and environment but no one would possibly conclude that he has no control over his own behavior if he were not forced to this conclusion by materialist philosophy.

Materialists are also forced—if they are consistent — to believe that there is no real good or evil, for how can some actions be “good” and others “evil,” if everything we do is beyond our control and determined by the laws of physics?   While there is substantial disagreement among humans over the details of moral codes even atheists know in their hearts that there is a difference between good and evil.  Have you ever known an atheist who did not appeal to morality to justify his actions, or to criticize those who disagree with him?

Materialists are also forced to believe that human brains are just advanced computing machines, and this leads to one of the most interesting inconsistencies of materialism.   The current ID debate can be reduced to the question:  is everything we see today simply the result of unintelligent causes or is an intelligent cause required to explain some things?   (Even though the big bang theory has shown us that the laws of physics and the particles of physics are themselves the result of some cause beyond our universe, the debate is still over whether this first cause is intelligent or unintelligent. And even though quantum mechanics tells us that there is a “supernatural” component — forever beyond the ability of science to explain or predict — to all natural phenomena, the debate is still over whether or not this supernatural component is entirely random, i.e., unintelligent.)

But what does “intelligent” mean?   Since humans are the only known intelligent beings in the universe, when we argue that a cause is intelligent, we can only mean “like humans.”  But if you really believe that human intelligence, like everything else in the universe, is just matter in motion what difference does it make if a cause is like humans or like rocks?  Both are just matter in motion.   A consistent materialist would have to conclude that the ID debate is over a trivial distinction.  But we all — including materialists — know that humans are not like rocks and so the debate is significant.

Please see my videos Why Evolution is Different and A Summary of the Evidence for Intelligent Design.

Comments
@29
The reasons for our actions derive from the way we are, and we cannot freely choose the way we are because our choices depend on the way we are.
There is certainly something very intriguing about this argument. The idea (as I understand it) that while we can and do act on the basis of reasons, we cannot choose what those reasons are. My main concern is whether this argument makes too synchronic and static a process that is really diachronic and dynamic. At any given time*, I can act on basis of reasons, and I can also reflect upon what my reasons are for why I do what I do. In doing so I can realize that what I had thought were good reasons are actually not. I can thus revise my reasons for why I do what I do. Now, it is certainly right that this activity of reflection and reason-revision is itself guided by reasons. And the reason-revising reasons are not themselves the reasons that are being revised. However, it seems plausible to me that the reason-revising reasons that are not under revision in that particular episode of self-reflection could very well become subject to revision in some subsequent episode of self-reflection. Thus while we can never revise all of our reasons all at once, we can engage in a process of continual self-correction, whereby various reasons are revised in light of other reasons, those reasons in turn become revised in light of other reasons, etc. In other words, the metaphor of Neurath's boat:
We are like sailors who on the open sea must reconstruct their ship but are never able to start afresh from the bottom. Where a beam is taken away a new one must at once be put there, and for this the rest of the ship is used as support. In this way, by using the old beams and driftwood the ship can be shaped entirely anew, but only by gradual reconstruction.
applies just as much the process of individual rational reconstruction and intellectual development as it does to the process of collective rational advancement. * subject to various constraints, such as being developmentally normal and not being severely cognitively impaired, having reached a developmental stage where I can appreciate and act upon reasons, etc.PyrrhoManiac1
February 24, 2023
February
02
Feb
24
24
2023
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
To add to Origenes succinct refutations of Dogdoc's claims,,,, In this very thread Dogdoc has refuted his own Darwinian worldview numerous times. For instance, in post 1 Dogdoc argues that he has no choice but to try to convince others that free will is an illusion simply because he actions are determined,,,, "If determinism were true, then the reason people would try to convince others of its truth is, obviously, because their actions are determined!" i.e. He claims that he has no control over whether or not he tries to convince other people that free will is an illusion! Yet, in post 18 Dogdoc complains that my posts are not 'enjoyable' for him to read since I am quote-unquote, "like a search engine that regurgitates reams of output based on a few keywords. Instead, try reading what people write and responding to it yourself!" Dogdoc can't have it both ways, either free will is an illusion and I have no choice but to be "like a search engine that regurgitates reams of output based on a few keywords" or else I have free will and I can contemplate what people write and meaningfully, (and hopefully thoughtfully), decide to respond to what they write. In other words, Dogdoc claims that he has no free will, but he acts, and expects other people to act, as if they have free will. As is usual for Darwinian materialists, Dogdoc is not putting his money where his mouth is.
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,, Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. https://www.sott.net/article/260160-The-Heretic-Who-is-Thomas-Nagel-and-why-are-so-many-of-his-fellow-academics-condemning-him
In short, and as Dogdoc himself gives evidence to in this very thread, Darwinian atheists are simply incapable of living their lives consistently as if their Darwinian worldview were actually true. Don't take my word for it, many leading Darwinists themselves have honestly admitted that they are incapable of living their lives as if they actually had no free will, and/or moral agency.
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
Richard Dawkins himself stated that it would be quote-unquote "intolerable' for him to live his life as if people had no moral agency, and that they were not responsible for their actions,
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
In what should be needless to say, if it is impossible for a person to live consistently as if their atheistic worldview were actually true, then their atheistic worldview cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but their atheistic worldview must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. - per answers for hope
In conclusion, in posts 11-13, (which Dogdoc did not find "enjoyable' to read), I shortly laid out the case for why the denial of free will is irrational and unscientific. And even briefly touched upon the fact that rightly recognizing Intelligent causation and legitimate form of causation in science solves many outstanding problems in science.,,, Dogdoc just complained that my posts were not 'enjoyable' for him to read, and did not present any scientific evidence whatsoever to the contrary. Moreover, in this very thread, Dogdoc's self refuting claim that we have no free will, and yet his acting as if we actually do have free will, (especially when he implored me to not act like a mindless search engine), only buttresses and solidifies my claim that the denial of free will is an irrational position to hold In short, Dogdoc has not refuted, but has only further solidified, my claim that free will is a real and tangible part of reality. So thus, given that I hold that it is obvious that Dogdoc has free will in a real and meaningful sense, might I also implore Dogdoc, as he did me, to not act like a search engine, but to meaningfully contemplate these things and to then act, and/or choose, appropriately?
Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die."
bornagain77
February 24, 2023
February
02
Feb
24
24
2023
04:14 AM
4
04
14
AM
PDT
Dogdoc, Do you internally experience a causal gap between "reasons" and an actualized choice? I don't mean a time delay, I mean a gap in terms of directly experiencing the fact that you can do and can not do that thing? I ask because I personally, directly experience that gap. I am always aware that the reasons I have are not causal - meaning, they cannot force me to take any action. There is always a gap there. However, I wonder if this is something that a large number of people do not experience, because they behave as if there is no gap, as if the reasons do actually force them into their individually programmed behavioral patterns.William J Murray
February 24, 2023
February
02
Feb
24
24
2023
03:35 AM
3
03
35
AM
PDT
Querius @35,
Ok, so you don’t believe in any God or gods. You still DO believe in absolutes, in this case that dogfighting competitions are wrong for anyone to engage in.
I think we're not being clear about what you mean by "absolutes". My beliefs against dogfighting are steadfast and unwavering, so if that's what you mean then yes I believe in absolutes. I do not believe that my beliefs are transcendent, or that they derive from a transcendent being.
But, if perception is your ultimate authority,...
I've not referred at all to "authority". I am compelled by my moral sense, but whatever legal authority is involved is derived from social interactions, not by gods. As for moral authority, that is a claim that my perception is accurate and those who disagree have faulty perceptions, just like I would say about someone who claims the sky is green.
...we do know that there are people with different perceptions–dogfight competitions EXIST and the people engaging in this horrible activity derive pleasure from it.
Yes of course that is true. It has always been true and will always be true. A great majority of people share my moral sense, but not everyone.
So under what authority can you judge dogfighting enthusiasts?
See above.
How can you put your own perception above anyone else’s perception?
What do you mean? I participate in society, and condemn and take action against people who mistreat animals. I reject their moral sense, and they reject mine, and it is as clear to me as the sky is blue (literally) that my moral sense is correct and theirs is faulty.
Are you advocating that if the majority of people in a region enjoy such an event (I’m thinking of bullfights and cockfights that do EXIST), does it make the activity into “good, clean fun?”
Again, I recoil in horror from all such activity, so of course I would not advocate allowing it to proceed in any region no matter who was in favor of it.
I think you’re trying to maintain moral relativism while simultaneously asserting absolutes.
Not in the least. (see above regarding the meaning of "absolutes").
While that might satisfy you, it’s simply not logical.
What have I said that is not logical?
And speaking of illogical, you’re presenting me with an impossible hypothetical about Jesus.
You object that my counterfactual is unimaginable because Jesus wouldn't ever condone animal abuse. But what if there were no Bible passages explicitly dealing with animal abuse? How would you know that Jesus was against it? Because animal abuse is wrong and Jesus wouldn't advocate doing anything wrong? (yes, it's just the Euthyphro dilemma).
Remember, dogfighting competitions do EXIST in fact and the poor animals get torn up and killed.
I've not forgotten.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
10:53 PM
10
10
53
PM
PDT
Origenes @34, Your rational choices must be based on your beliefs and desires, but you can't possibly be the ultimate author of your beliefs and desires, because in order to rationally choose your beliefs and desires you must already have your beliefs and desires. It's a simple argument, but you still don't understand it. That's not because you are a moron, it's because it undermines too many of your cognitive commitments. It is that to which you truly have allegiance - your existing belief structures.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
10:52 PM
10
10
52
PM
PDT
Dogdoc @ ,AnimatedDust @32
DD: I’m fairly sure you don’t understand Hofstadter’s viewpoint, and even more certain you don’t understand his intelligence.
I understand his viewpoint perfectly. It is a viewpoint located well outside the realm of rationality. If someone says: "I am an illusion, I am 'a strange loop', I am, in fact, 'a myriad infinitesimal entities and the invisible chemical transactions taking place among them'", then this person has departed from the realm of rationality. That's ok. Everyone is free to do so. I have no problem with that at all. But PLEASE do not ask me to take such a person (moron) seriously. I have zero respect for the opinions of "illusions" and/or the opinions of "chemical transactions." Absolutely ZERO. - - - - AnimatedDust @32
I vote moron. And I am in my 60s.
Also in my 60s, and I also vote moron. :)Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
06:37 PM
6
06
37
PM
PDT
Dogdoc @26,
First, divine commands are defined as absolute, not empirically observed. (I do not believe that divine commands exist). Second, divine commands are no more absolute than perceptions, because they can vary from god to god.
You're still evading my question. Ok, so you don't believe in any God or gods. You still DO believe in absolutes, in this case that dogfighting competitions are wrong for anyone to engage in. But, if perception is your ultimate authority, we do know that there are people with different perceptions--dogfight competitions EXIST and the people engaging in this horrible activity derive pleasure from it. So under what authority can you judge dogfighting enthusiasts? How can you put your own perception above anyone else's perception? Are you advocating that if the majority of people in a region enjoy such an event (I'm thinking of bullfights and cockfights that do EXIST), does it make the activity into "good, clean fun?" I think you're trying to maintain moral relativism while simultaneously asserting absolutes. While that might satisfy you, it's simply not logical. And speaking of illogical, you're presenting me with an impossible hypothetical about Jesus. What if 1 + 1 = 3 or light is darkness? What if LISP code with unequal left and right parens actually ran, or if divide-by-zero expressions evaluated to the numerator? If a premise of an argument is wrong, the conclusion based on it is invalid. Remember, dogfighting competitions do EXIST in fact and the poor animals get torn up and killed. The command you're suggesting that Jesus hypothetically makes to me DOES NOT EXIST in fact--and won't without self-contradiction. -QQuerius
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PDT
~ Dogdoc’s argument against free will ~
The reasons for our actions derive from the way we are, and we cannot freely choose the way we are because our choices depend on the way we are.
Dogdoc, to what is your allegiance? Think about it. Let me tell you about my allegiance to truth and rationality. This is what I understand: I must be free in order to be rational. I must be in full control of my thoughts, or else I am not rational. Specifically, my understanding of things must originate purely from me. Understanding something must be entirely my effort. If there is an alien source (or co-source) of my understanding, if something other than me, something beyond my control, induces in me the false notion that I understand something, then I do not understand anything, and I am not rational and all is lost. Finally, should I even mention that in order for me to be rational it can also not be the case that my "I" is an illusion? If my demands are incompatible with physicalism, and they surely are, then so be it. Unlike others, I do not owe physicalism anything.Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
I vote moron. And I am in my 60s.
Physically perhaps :-)dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
04:22 PM
4
04
22
PM
PDT
“What is an "I", and why are such things found (at least so far) only in association with, as poet Russell Edson once wonderfully phrased it, "teetering bulbs of dread and dream" -- that is, only in association with certain kinds of gooey lumps encased in hard protective shells mounted atop mobile pedestals that roam the world on pairs of slightly fuzzy, jointed stilts?” “I would like to understand things better, but I don’t want to understand them perfectly.” “For now, what is important is not finding the answer, but looking for it.” “My feeling is that the concept of superrationality is one whose truth will come to dominate among intelligent beings in the universe simply because its adherents will survive certain kinds of situations where its opponents will perish. Let’s wait a few spins of the galaxy and see. After all, healthy logic is whatever remains after evolution’s merciless pruning.” I had never heard of Hofstadter before this thread. I vote moron. And I am in my 60s.AnimatedDust
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PDT
Origenes @30,
According to the moron Douglas R. Hofstadter the “I” is a grand illusion.
You think Hofstadter is a moron. My guess is you are a relatively young person. As one grows older and (hopefully) gains wisdom, you realize that when people see things differently it is often not because they are stupid (and often because you haven't actually understood their viewpoint). For example, when I was very young I thought anyone who believed in something as ridiculous as a human-like god who knows each human on Earth had to be utterly moronic. By the time I was twenty I recognized that it was me who was being ridiculous, and religious people could be quite brilliant. I didn't change my mind about the existence of anthropomorphic dieties; I changed my mind about ascribing such beliefs to stupidity. I'm fairly sure you don't understand Hofstadter's viewpoint, and even more certain you don't understand his intelligence. In the OP in this thread was a common accusation: Anyone who disbelieves in free will is stupid, and this is evidenced by the fact that they try to convince others they are correct. As I pointed out, whatever one thinks of free will and determinism, this particular argument is obviously silly (once you posit determinism, the answer to why people argue for determinism is because they are causally determined to do so). But the worse error is to think that all of the people who have studied and written on the topic against free will would make some mistake that any child (or presumptuous internet poster) can instantly see using nothing but common sense. Likewise with those who argue that consciousness is an illusion. It is a far more subtle argument than you make this out to be. I do not subscribe to that view (I believe conscious awareness is mysterious and wanting of explanation), but I do believe that we have illusions regarding how we make choices (as has been illustrated in experiments by Daniel Wegner and others). I do not believe that consciousness is causal, but rather it is perceptual. And I'm not a moron :-)dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
03:56 PM
3
03
56
PM
PDT
DogDoc
If you’re not familiar with Douglas Hofstadter (and his wonderful book Godel Escher Bach) I’d recommend him to you – he believes something similar to what you’re expressing – that consciousness arises via “strange loops” of recursion.
PM1: Loved that book. That was my first encounter with the ideas of recursion and feedback loops, which have been central to my thinking ever since.
According to the moron Douglas R. Hofstadter the “I” is a grand illusion.
"You make decisions, take actions, affect the world, receive feedback from the world, incorporate it into yourself, then the updated 'you' makes more decisions, and so forth, round and round," (...) "anatomically invisible, terribly murky thing called I." (...) "In the soft, ethereal, neurology-free world of these players, the typical human brain perceives its very own 'I' as a pusher and a mover, never entertaining for a moment the idea that its star player might merely be a useful shorthand standing for a myriad infinitesimal entities and the invisible chemical transactions taking place among them." [ I AM A STRANGE LOOP, by Douglas R. Hofstadter]
I may have mentioned it before. The idea that the “I” is an illusion is one of the dumbest ideas ever. As the great Bill Vallicella wrote:
Consciousness cannot be an illusion for the simple reason that we presuppose it when we distinguish between reality and illusion.  An illusion is an illusion to consciousness, so that if there were no consciousness there would be no illusions either.
And that’s all you need to know. That’s it. There is nothing to add. Shame on DogDoc for promoting this nonsense! No blame falls on PM1, he simply doesn’t understand these issues.Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
02:16 PM
2
02
16
PM
PDT
Origenes @27
When Aquinas wrote “Liber est Causa Sui”, he did not mean that a free man creates himself, instead, he meant that a free man causes his own movement.
I was using the term in a modern sense, a la Nietzsche or Strawson.
Again, that’s not the only meaning. And when you used the term causa sui you were not talking about a person who brings himself into existence. You were talking about, self-relationship; a person controlling himself; self-control.
Nope, I meant that the reasons for our actions derive from the way we are, and we cannot choose the way we are because our choices depend on the way we are.
Here is your argument against free will...
That is not my argument. I guess you forgot our long previous conversation about this. Once again, as simple as I can make it without you misconstruing it: The reasons for our actions derive from the way we are, and we cannot freely choose the way we are because our choices depend on the way we are.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
01:46 PM
1
01
46
PM
PDT
PyrrhoManiac1@25
My background is mostly in epistemology and philosophy of mind (esp the grumpy Germans), lately I’ve been getting very interested in philosophy of cognitive science and theoretical biology, so philosophy of AI was not far behind.
Very cool! Just as quantum physics professionals weren't often interested in foundations and interpretations, my AI colleagues had little interest in philosophy of mind. Thank you for the book references, I will definitely check them out! I completely agree that we have no idea how our minds work, although I confess I was shocked the first time I played with ChatGPT. GOFAI failed spectacularly (though it was fun trying), and I've been waiting decades for something to pass the Turing test, and now it's arguably passed and all people can talk about are AI's limitations and dangers (both obviously vitally important to understand but still...) There may be something in deep nets that hint at how some of our cognition works; if I was young I'd work in integrating symbolic reasoning with connectionist models.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
01:44 PM
1
01
44
PM
PDT
DogDoc @23
Causa sui does not refer to self-propulsion ...
When Aquinas wrote “Liber est Causa Sui”, he did not mean that a free man creates himself, instead, he meant that a free man causes his own movement. So, causa sui (self-causation) does refer to self-movement, or more generally self-relationship (self-organization, self-control, self-sustainment, self-observance), and certainly in the context of free will discussion.
...it refers to “something being the cause of itself”. It is logically impossible because in order for A to cause A to come into existence, it must already exist.
Again, that’s not the only meaning. And when you used the term causa sui you were not talking about a person who brings himself into existence. You were talking about, self-relationship; a person controlling himself; self-control.
DD: …. but that doesn’t mean each individual doesn’t control their own actions. It’s just that the word “control” here does not imply causa sui, which is impossible.
- - - - -
DD: Calling something “magic” is not the same as saying it is unexplained.
Claiming that some event occurs without any reason, without any cause, as a definitive judgment .... Saying: "This is an undetermined event [end of all analysis]" is in my view no different than saying: "This is **magic**."
DD: Yes I believe that we have no single, compelling interpretation of what is going in quantum physics. And as PyrrhoManiac pointed out, the whole notion of causality is quite problematic. This is why my argument against free will does not talk about causality at all, but rather only reason-responsiveness.
Here is your argument against free will, which you claim “does not talk about causality at all”:
DD: Modern physics does not include contra-causal mental powers, but neither does it assume deterministic causality. Libertarian free will is incoherent (on what basis could an uncaused will make decisions?) but not because of determinism.
Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
Querius@9,
In @1, you asserted that Good and evil are perceptions, not divine commands. So, I asked myself, “How are perceptions different than divine commands?” A reasonable answer is that perceptions vary from person to person, but divine commands are absolute.
First, divine commands are defined as absolute, not empirically observed. (I do not believe that divine commands exist). Second, divine commands are no more absolute than perceptions, because they can vary from god to god.
Thus, I can see why you squirmed so much when I pressed you on the issue to cruelty of animals.
Um, no, I didn't squirm at all. Believe me, I really have no ambivalence at all about my feelings regarding cruelty to animals.
Thankfully, you agree that such behavior is an absolute, and not relative to the perception of the person after all!
You are misreading just about everything I'm saying. Again: Our moral sense manifests as a perception, like a sense perception. Just as we are generally unable to consciously choose what color to see when we look at the sky, we are unable to consciously choose whether or not we see animal abuse as wrong. Most people see the sky as blue, and most people see torture of animals as wrong.
Your hypothetically “lost chapter” would be completely out of character with the other scriptures and a fraud.
Now who's squirming? What if Jesus Himself appeared to you and told you that cruelty to animals was a wholesome and pleasant pastime that you should enjoy with your family? I'm not saying He would, I'm presenting a counterfactual conditional to expose the fact that your moral sense is independent of what you find in religious texts.
So considering your absolute stance on cruelty inflicted on dogs and puppies (I bet you’ve seen some heart-wrenching cases), my follow-up question is, “What other actions fall into your absolute category?”
Yes, cases of animal neglect and abuse seem even more despicable because (like child abuse) the victims are so innocent. As for what other things I would put in the same category, the list is long of course, and I'm quite certain it would align quite closely with yours. But I don't think it's because there is a god who tells us what is right or wrong, any more than we see a blue sky because God says it's blue.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
01:08 PM
1
01
08
PM
PDT
mind! Started programming in LISP as a result and had a 35year career in AI.
Interesting. My background is mostly in epistemology and philosophy of mind (esp the grumpy Germans), lately I've been getting very interested in philosophy of cognitive science and theoretical biology, so philosophy of AI was not far behind. Lately I've read Mitchell's Artificial Intelligence: A Guide for Thinking Humans (she's a Hofstadter student and it shows!), Larson's The Myth of Artificial Intelligence, and Cantwell Smith's The Promise of Artificial Intelligence. All three seem to agree that real-world AI is fascinating, potentially disruptive, potentially helpful, but that there's no discernible path from real-world AIs like Watson or AlphaZero to AGI. AGI would require a really profound transformation in our understanding of what intelligence is, and we have no idea what that would even look like.PyrrhoManiac1
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
Docdoc @9, In @1, you asserted that
Good and evil are perceptions, not divine commands.
So, I asked myself, “How are perceptions different than divine commands?” A reasonable answer is that perceptions vary from person to person, but divine commands are absolute. Thus, I can see why you squirmed so much when I pressed you on the issue to cruelty of animals. Thankfully, you agree that such behavior is an absolute, and not relative to the perception of the person after all!
If scholars found a lost chapter of the Bible which showed that God wants you to torture puppies for your pleasure, my guess is that you would still perceive that act as abhorrent.
Your hypothetically “lost chapter” would be completely out of character with the other scriptures and a fraud.
The righteous care for the needs of their animals, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel. – Proverbs 12:10
Many such attempts have already been exposed on the basis of a chain of custody and several types of internal and external inconsistencies (historical linguistics, materials used, context, style, etc.). So considering your absolute stance on cruelty inflicted on dogs and puppies (I bet you’ve seen some heart-wrenching cases), my follow-up question is, “What other actions fall into your absolute category?” -QQuerius
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
Origenes @21
DD: causa sui is logically impossible. So, something cannot cause itself to move. If something moves it must be due to an external cause.
Frustrating, yes. Causa sui does not refer to self-propulsion, it refers to "something being the cause of itself". It is logically impossible because in order for A to cause A to come into existence, it must already exist. It relates to free will in that free will requires that one freely chooses the way one is, but in order to do that one must already be the way one is.
So, what is the cause then? Or is it completely unexplained? As in POOF**Magic** ?
Calling something "magic" is not the same as saying it is unexplained. Yes I believe that we have no single, compelling interpretation of what is going in quantum physics. And as PyrrhoManiac pointed out, the whole notion of causality is quite problematic. This is why my argument against free will does not talk about causality at all, but rather only reason-responsiveness.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
PyrrhoManiac1@20,
Right, but quantum mechanics is still deterministic in its own way: the Schrodinger equation is fully deterministic, in that it gives exact values for each probability. It just doesn’t tell you which of those probabilities will be observed!
That's right, and why I said "not deterministic in the way Newtonian physics is." (BTW there are still fully deterministic interpretations of QM).
Interestingly enough, some physicists have argued that causality is not fundamental but emerges from deeper structures — and Bertrand Russell suggested doing away with it altogether, as far as physics goes!
Yes, and Hume before that.
Loved that book. That was my first encounter with the ideas of recursion and feedback loops, which have been central to my thinking ever since.
Yes, I had poorly-formed intuitions about recursion, self-reference, etc, then found the book and it blew my mind! Started programming in LISP as a result and had a 35year career in AI.
I think you’re making the mistake of anthopomorphizing BA77.
Hahahahadogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:29 PM
12
12
29
PM
PDT
// A frustrating conversation with DogDoc //
DD: causa sui is logically impossible.
So, something cannot cause itself to move. If something moves it must be due to an external cause.
I do not believe every event has an external cause.
Ori: An undetermined event has no external cause, so what is it if not causa sui?
DD: It is undetermined.
An undetermined event has no external cause, AND, according to you, it does not cause itself. So, what is the cause then? Or is it completely unexplained? As in POOF**Magic** ? Do you not see a problem with that?
DD: I have no trouble with undetermined events.
I guess not. Well, that’s good to know. Good day sir.Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:10 PM
12
12
10
PM
PDT
I don’t think physics assumes anything about causality per se. Rather, it describes observable regularities in nature and attempts to build models that predict and explain them. But obviously quantum physics is not deterministic in the way Newtonian physics is.
Right, but quantum mechanics is still deterministic in its own way: the Schrodinger equation is fully deterministic, in that it gives exact values for each probability. It just doesn't tell you which of those probabilities will be observed! Interestingly enough, some physicists have argued that causality is not fundamental but emerges from deeper structures -- and Bertrand Russell suggested doing away with it altogether, as far as physics goes!
If you’re not familiar with Douglas Hofstadter (and his wonderful book Godel Escher Bach) I’d recommend him to you – he believes something similar to what you’re expressing – that consciousness arises via “strange loops” of recursion.
Loved that book. That was my first encounter with the ideas of recursion and feedback loops, which have been central to my thinking ever since.
The debates on this site would be so much more enjoyable without you filling up every page with your endless copypasta, almost all of which is nonresponsive to the arguments being made! You’re like a search engine that regurgitates reams of output based on a few keywords. Instead, try reading what people write and responding to it yourself!
I think you're making the mistake of anthopomorphizing BA77. It may produce text similar to what a person would produce, but it's more like ChatGPT -- a neural net that's been trained to post the same texts over and over again. I doubt it could pass the Turing test.PyrrhoManiac1
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
12:05 PM
12
12
05
PM
PDT
Dogdoc @
You are assuming the existence of a self that has causal powers, but I don’t think there is a self that exists independently of the person.
A self that exists independently of the person? What on earth are you talking about?Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
11:04 AM
11
11
04
AM
PDT
BA77, The debates on this site would be so much more enjoyable without you filling up every page with your endless copypasta, almost all of which is nonresponsive to the arguments being made! You're like a search engine that regurgitates reams of output based on a few keywords. Instead, try reading what people write and responding to it yourself!dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
10:57 AM
10
10
57
AM
PDT
WJM @15,
Reasons are not causes
There is much to debate regarding what constitutes a reason, but still, most reasons are causes. In any case this is why my argument against ultimate free will refers only to reasons and not to causes.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PDT
Origenes, I mistakenly responded to Querius about the first point rather than you:
What types of causality does modern physics assume?
I don’t think physics assumes anything about causality per se. Rather, it describes observable regularities in nature and attempts to build models that predict and explain them. But obviously quantum physics is not deterministic in the way Newtonian physics is. Then @10:
Is your point that there are undetermined physical events not describable by laws of physics? If so, can you explain their relevance to free will?
Depends on what you mean by "free will". And @14:
You seem to say that “uncaused will” is an incoherent concept. I suppose you mean that self-caused will is an incoherent concept. Elsewhere you write that causa sui is “impossible.”
Yes, as I made clear in a very long thread a little while ago, that is what I mean, and yes causa sui is required for the sort of free will I think most people intuit they have, and yes causa sui is logically impossible.
First, I note that in your view there is also a problem with the concept of an undetermined event, which you seem to accept in the context of quantum mechanics.
No, I have no trouble with undetermined events - I was pointing out that modern physics is not deterministic.
An undetermined event has no external cause, so what is it if not causa sui?
It is undetermined.
Second, if you are correct and causa sui is impossible if every event has an external cause, we run into the incoherence of an infinite causal regress.
I do not believe every event has an external cause.
Would you agree with me that self-awareness is a case of causa sui?
No, I don't think we understand what causes self-awareness. You are assuming the existence of a self that has causal powers, but I don't think there is a self that exists independently of the person. If you're not familiar with Douglas Hofstadter (and his wonderful book Godel Escher Bach) I'd recommend him to you - he believes something similar to what you're expressing - that consciousness arises via "strange loops" of recursion.dogdoc
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
10:55 AM
10
10
55
AM
PDT
Libertarian free will is incoherent (on what basis could an uncaused will make decisions?
Reasons are not causes.William J Murray
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
07:01 AM
7
07
01
AM
PDT
DogDoc
Libertarian free will is incoherent (on what basis could an uncaused will make decisions?) but not because of determinism.
You seem to say that “uncaused will” is an incoherent concept. I suppose you mean that self-caused will is an incoherent concept. Elsewhere you write that causa sui is “impossible.” Some comments: First, I note that in your view there is also a problem with the concept of an undetermined event, which you seem to accept in the context of quantum mechanics. An undetermined event has no external cause, so what is it if not causa sui? Second, if you are correct and causa sui is impossible if every event has an external cause, we run into the incoherence of an infinite causal regress. Lastly, an example of what I consider to be a case of causa sui. The self observes the self and self-awareness follows. Without self-observation, there is no self-awareness. Put differently, the self, by observing itself, causes its self-awareness. Would you agree with me that self-awareness is a case of causa sui?Origenes
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
04:23 AM
4
04
23
AM
PDT
And now Anton Zeilinger and company have closed the last remaining setting independence and/or ‘freedom of choice’ loophole.
Cosmic Bell Test Using Random Measurement Settings from High-Redshift Quasars – Anton Zeilinger – 14 June 2018 Excerpt: This experiment pushes back to at least approx. 7.8 Gyr ago the most recent time by which any local-realist influences could have exploited the “freedom-of-choice” loophole to engineer the observed Bell violation, excluding any such mechanism from 96% of the space-time volume of the past light cone of our experiment, extending from the big bang to today. https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.121.080403
As Anton Zeilinger stated in an interview, "what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.”
“The Kochen-Speckter Theorem talks about properties of one system only. So we know that we cannot assume – to put it precisely, we know that it is wrong to assume that the features of a system, which we observe in a measurement exist prior to measurement. Not always. I mean in certain cases. So in a sense, what we perceive as reality now depends on our earlier decision what to measure. Which is a very, very, deep message about the nature of reality and our part in the whole universe. We are not just passive observers.” Anton Zeilinger – Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism – video (7:17 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4C5pq7W5yRM#t=437
Thus regardless of how Steven Weinberg and other atheists may prefer the universe to behave, with the closing of the last remaining ‘freedom of choice’ loophole in quantum mechanics, “humans are (indeed) brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level”, and thus these recent findings from quantum mechanics directly undermine, as Weinberg himself honestly admitted, the “vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.” Moreover, when we rightly allow the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics, (as the Christian founders of modern science originally held with the presupposition of ‘contingency’), and as quantum mechanics itself now empirically demands with the closing of the “freedom-of-choice” loophole by Anton Zeilinger and company), then rightly allowing the Agent causality of God ‘back’ into physics provides us with a very plausible resolution for the much sought after ‘theory of everything’ in that Christ’s resurrection from the dead bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics and provides us with an empirically backed reconciliation, via the Shroud of Turin, between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity into the much sought after ‘Theory of Everything”
Oct. 2022 – And although there will never be a purely mathematical ‘theory of everything’ that bridges the infinite mathematical divide that exists between quantum mechanics and general relativity, all hope is not lost in finding the correct ‘theory of everything’.,,,, https://uncommondescent.com/cosmology/from-iai-news-how-infinity-threatens-cosmology/#comment-766384
Verse:
Colossians 1:15-20 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
All in all, when we rightly, (and sanely I might add), recognize free will, agent causation, and/or intelligent causation, as legitimate form of causation in science, the many outstanding, seemingly irresolvable, problems in science find ready solutions. Whereas, on the other hand, denying the reality of free will, agent causation, and/or intelligent causation, as a legitimate form of causation in science creates situations where, as George Ellis pointed out, “we will have instances of uncaused changes in the world; I presume we wish to avoid that situation.,,,”
Recognising Top-Down Causation – George Ellis Excerpt: Causation: The nature of causation is highly contested territory, and I will take a pragmatic view: Definition 1: Causal Effect If making a change in a quantity X results in a reliable demonstrable change in a quantity Y in a given context, then X has a causal effect on Y. Example: I press the key labelled “A” on my computer keyboard; the letter “A” appears on my computer screen.,,, Definition 2: Existence If Y is a physical entity made up of ordinary matter, and X is some kind of entity that has a demonstrable causal effect on Y as per Definition 1, then we must acknowledge that X also exists (even if it is not made up of such matter). This is clearly a sensible and testable criterion; in the example above, it leads to the conclusion that both the data and the relevant software exist. If we do not adopt this definition, we will have instances of uncaused changes in the world; I presume we wish to avoid that situation.,,, Excerpt: page 5: A: Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software. A program is not a physical thing you can point to, but by Definition 2 it certainly exists. You can point to a CD or flashdrive where it is stored, but that is not the thing in itself: it is a medium in which it is stored. The program itself is an abstract entity, shaped by abstract logic. Is the software “nothing but” its realisation through a specific set of stored electronic states in the computer memory banks? No it is not because it is the precise pattern in those states that matters: a higher level relation that is not apparent at the scale of the electrons themselves. It’s a relational thing (and if you get the relations between the symbols wrong, so you have a syntax error, it will all come to a grinding halt). This abstract nature of software is realised in the concept of virtual machines, which occur at every level in the computer hierarchy except the bottom one [17]. But this tower of virtual machines causes physical effects in the real world, for example when a computer controls a robot in an assembly line to create physical artefacts. Excerpt page 7:,,, The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.2275.pdf
In short, and in conclusion, the denial of agent causality, intelligent causation, and/or free will, as a legitimate form of causation by Atheistic Naturalists, is the primary, and fatal flaw, in their worldview. A fatal flaw that, contrary to whatever they may erroneously believe otherwise, prevents their worldview from ever being a truly 'scientific' worldview in the first place.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 but test all things. Hold fast to what is good.
bornagain77
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
02:59 AM
2
02
59
AM
PDT
In fact, an essential presupposition that lay at the founding of modern science in medieval Christian Europe was the belief in 'contingency'. Which is to say, the Christian founders of modern science did not believe that the universe had a 'necessary' existence, (as the Ancient Greek philosophers were prone to believe), but instead the Christian founders of modern science believed that the universe is 'contingent' upon the will of God for its existence, i.e. the universe 'could have been otherwise'.'
“Science in its modern form arose in the Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world”, because only the Christian West possessed the necessary “intellectual presuppositions”. – Ian Barbour Presupposition 1: The contingency of nature “In 1277, the Etienne Tempier, the bishop of Paris, writing with support of Pope John XXI, condemned “necessarian theology” and 219 separate theses influenced by Greek philosophy about what God could and couldn’t do.”,, “The order in nature could have been otherwise (therefore) the job of the natural philosopher, (i.e. scientist), was not to ask what God must have done but (to ask) what God actually did.” Presupposition 2: The intelligibility of nature “Modern science was inspired by the conviction that the universe is the product of a rational mind who designed it to be understood and who (also) designed the human mind to understand it.” (i.e. human exceptionalism), “God created us in his own image so that we could share in his own thoughts” – Johannes Kepler Presupposition 3: Human Fallibility “Humans are vulnerable to self-deception, flights of fancy, and jumping to conclusions.”, (i.e. original sin), Scientists must therefore employ “systematic experimental methods.” (Francis Bacon’s championing of inductive reasoning over and above the deductive reasoning of the ancient Greeks) – Stephen Meyer on Intelligent Design and The Return of the God Hypothesis – Hoover Institution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_8PPO-cAlA
As Sir Isaac Newton, the father of modern physics, himself stated, ‘Without all doubt this world...could arise from nothing but the perfectly free will of God... From this fountain (what) we call the laws of nature have flowed, in which there appear many traces indeed of the most wise contrivance, but not the least shadow of necessity. These therefore we must not seek from uncertain conjectures, but learn them from observations and experiments."
Is Krauss Right? Isaac Newton Does Not Think So - 2013 Excerpt: ‘Without all doubt this world...could arise from nothing but the perfectly free will of God... From this fountain (what) we call the laws of nature have flowed, in which there appear many traces indeed of the most wise contrivance, but not the least shadow of necessity. These therefore we must not seek from uncertain conjectures, but learn them from observations and experiments.",,, - Sir Isaac Newton - (Cited from Religion and the Rise of Modern Science by Hooykaas page 49). https://thirdspace.org.au/comment/237
And indeed the essential Christian presupposition of 'contingency', i.e. that the universe is dependent upon the will of God who called it into being, has now been born out empirically. Namely, evidence from Big Bang cosmology, and General Relativity, have now both shown that the entire material universe had a definite beginning. Moreover, besides a transcendent beginning to the entire material universe, evidence from quantum mechanics has now shown that the universe is also dependent on a non-local, i.e. a transcendent, beyond space and time, cause for its continual existence. As the following article notes, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 28 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
And as Anton Zeilinger stated towards the end of his 2022 Nobel prize lecture, "These predictions (of quantum mechanics) are completely independent of the relative arrangements of measurements in space and time. That tells you something about the role of space and time. There’s no role at all.”,,,
“There’s one important message I want to say here. When you look at the predictions of quantum mechanics for multi-particle entanglement,, so you could have one measurement here, one (measurement) there, an earlier (measurement), a later (measurement), and so on. These predictions (of quantum mechanics) are completely independent of the relative arrangements of measurements in space and time. That tells you something about the role of space and time. There’s no role at all.”,,, – Anton Zeilinger – 2022 Nobel Prize lectures in physics – video (1:50:07 mark) https://youtu.be/a9FsKqvrJNY?t=6607 Alain Aspect: From Einstein’s doubts to quantum technologies: non-locality a fruitful image John F. Clauser: Experimental proof that nonlocal quantum entanglement is real Anton Zeilinger: A Voyage through Quantum Wonderland – Alain Aspect, John F. Clauser and Anton Zeilinger were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics 2022 “for experiments with entangled photons, establishing the violation of Bell inequalities and pioneering quantum information science”.
Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, and especially with the falsification of 'hidden variables', simply have no beyond space and time cause that they can appeal so as to be able to explain the non-local quantum coherence and/or entanglement.
Not So Real - Sheldon Lee Glashow - Oct. 2018 Excerpt: In 1959, John Stewart Bell deduced his eponymous theorem: that no system of hidden variables can reproduce all of the consequences of quantum theory. In particular, he deduced an inequality pertinent to observations of an entangled system consisting of two separated particles. If experimental results contradicted Bell’s inequality, hidden-variable models could be ruled out. Experiments of this kind seemed difficult or impossible to carry out. But, in 1972, Alain Aspect succeeded. His results contradicted Bell’s inequality. The predictions of quantum mechanics were confirmed and the principle of local realism challenged. Ever more precise tests of Bell’s inequality and its extension by John Clauser et al. continue to be performed,14 including an experiment involving pairs of photons coming from different distant quasars. Although a few tiny loopholes may remain, all such tests to date have confirmed that quantum theory is incompatible with the existence of local hidden variables. Most physicists have accepted the failure of Einstein’s principle of local realism. https://inference-review.com/article/not-so-real
Whereas on the other hand, the Christian Theist readily does have a beyond space and time cause that he can appeal to so as to explain the non-locality of quantum entanglement. And Christians have been postulating just such a beyond space and time cause for a few thousand years now. As Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Moreover, free will is also now shown to be integral in quantum mechanics. As the late Steven Weinberg, an atheist, explained, “In the instrumentalist approach (in quantum mechanics) humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level.,,, the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else.,,, In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,”
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics – Steven Weinberg – January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://quantum.phys.unm.edu/466-17/QuantumMechanicsWeinberg.pdf
In short, Weinberg did not reject the instrumentalist approach because of any inherent irrationality within the instrumentalist approach, (as he did with the realist approach), but he rejected the instrumentalist approach simply because of his a priori philosophical commitment to Atheistic Naturalism, and to Darwinian evolution in particular. To repeat Weinberg, “the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else”. I consider Weinberg's rejection of the 'instrumentalist approach', simply because of his Darwinian metaphysics, to be yet another prime example that clearly demonstrates how Darwinian ideas undermine science itself. But anyways, regardless of how Weinberg and other atheists may prefer the world to behave, quantum mechanics itself could care less how atheists prefer the world to behave. Although there have been several major loopholes in quantum mechanics over the past several decades that atheists have tried to appeal to in order to try to avoid the ‘spooky’ Theistic implications of quantum mechanics, over the past several years each of those major loopholes have been closed one by one. The last major loophole that was left to be closed was the “setting independence”, “freedom of choice”, and/or the ‘free-will’ loophole:
Closing the ‘free will’ loophole: Using distant quasars to test Bell’s theorem – February 20, 2014 Excerpt: Though two major loopholes have since been closed, a third remains; physicists refer to it as “setting independence,” or more provocatively, “free will.” This loophole proposes that a particle detector’s settings may “conspire” with events in the shared causal past of the detectors themselves to determine which properties of the particle to measure — a scenario that, however far-fetched, implies that a physicist running the experiment does not have complete free will in choosing each detector’s setting. Such a scenario would result in biased measurements, suggesting that two particles are correlated more than they actually are, and giving more weight to quantum mechanics than classical physics. “It sounds creepy, but people realized that’s a logical possibility that hasn’t been closed yet,” says MIT’s David Kaiser, the Germeshausen Professor of the History of Science and senior lecturer in the Department of Physics. “Before we make the leap to say the equations of quantum theory tell us the world is inescapably crazy and bizarre, have we closed every conceivable logical loophole, even if they may not seem plausible in the world we know today?” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140220112515.htm
bornagain77
February 23, 2023
February
02
Feb
23
23
2023
02:58 AM
2
02
58
AM
PDT
1 7 8 9 10

Leave a Reply