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The “is-ought” problem. Is it a true dichotomy or a deceptive bluff?

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It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble, it’s what you do know that just ain’t so. — Mark Twain

According to the overrated philosopher, David Hume, we should not try to draw logical conclusions about objective morality based on our knowledge of the real world. This was his smug way of claiming that humans are incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Through the years, his devoted followers have tweaked his message into a flat out declaration: We cannot derive an “ought to” (a moral code) from the “is.” (the way things are). Just to make sure that we don’t misunderstand, they characterize this formulation as “Hume’s Law.”

The only problem with this philosophy is that it is tragically, clumsily, and inexcusably—wrong. On the contrary, we can learn a great deal about the moral law from the observable facts of nature as long as we acknowledge the point that some truths are self-evident.

Unfortunately, hyper-skeptics cannot grasp this point because they first fail to understand that morality is a measure of, and is dependent on, what is good. If there is no (objective) good, then morality cannot exist. But we know that some things, such as life, are obviously good for humans – universally, absolutely, and objectively good. It is the same for goods that flow from life, such as the desire to survive and reproduce. As would be expected of objectively good things, they exist in a hierarchy, which means that we can differentiate between lower goods (wants) and higher goods (needs).

People want food that is pleasing to the palate, for example, but they need food that meets their nutritional requirements. The latter good is more important than the former, even if it is not perceived to be so. If one allows his desire for pleasure to overpower his desire for good health, he will eventually lose the capacity to be pleased and the opportunity to be healthy. It is self-evident to any rational person that the desire for long-term health is a higher good than the desire for momentary pleasure.

So it is with sex. Humans may want to experience immediate physical gratification, but if they ignore the higher needs, such as the desire for love and respect, they will harm themselves and others. Sexual responsibility is less about submitting to the technology of birth control and more about responding to the challenge of self-disciplined behavior.

Again, through nature, we learn that the good of procreation is made possible by the complementarity of the species. That is why a marriage is properly defined as the union of one man and one woman: the difference between them allows them to unite in one flesh. Two members of the same sex cannot become one flesh because it is the complementarity that makes the oneness possible. From Biology, we also discover that sex has a specific function, which means that it can be misused by those who do not respect its intended purpose.

From the all this information about the “is,” (complementarity and biology) we can derive four distinct moral conclusions: [a] Men should not have sex with men. [b] Women should not have sex with women. [c] Same sex marriage cannot and does not exist. [d] Any law that defines so-called “gay marriage” as a true marriage is an evil lie and should be resisted.

In a broader sense, the lower goods, such as fun, pleasure, and delight, are designed as an incentive for pursuing the higher goods, such as love, self-esteem, self-control, meaning, and purpose, which are the ones that matter most in any discussion of morality. Because we really need them, they are good for us and we ought to have them. As Mortimer Adler says, we ought to desire whatever is really good for us and nothing else.

From the testimony of social scientists, we learn that humans are social beings, so we may safely conclude that they ought to reproduce, build families and establish communities. In every area of life, there are legitimate moral needs that ought to be pursued and illegitimate wants that ought to be eschewed.

Moral growth, therefore, involves a definitive behavioral strategy: We should learn to like what is good for us and to dislike what is bad for us. In other words, we should form good habits so that they will crowd out the bad habits. Nature not only teaches us about the need for virtue, it also helps us to acquire it through practice. Psychologists tell us that it takes three to six weeks to form a new habit.

The take home message, then, should be clear: Beware of the hyper-skeptical doctrine that goes by the name of Hume’s “law.” The so-called “is – ought” dichotomy is a deceptive bluff. It poses no intellectual challenge to the natural moral law or the human capacity to apprehend it.

 

 

Comments
J.L. Mackie argued that moral values don’t exist because if they existed they would be “queer.” This is his so-called queerness argument against moral realism. Mackie writes:
If there were objective values, then they would be entities or qualities or relations of a very strange sort, utterly different from anything else in the universe. Correspondingly, if we were aware of them, it would have to be by some special faculty of moral perception or intuition, utterly different from our ordinary ways of knowing everything else.
Personally, I have never liked the word objective when it comes to ethical discourse. When I can I prefer to use terms like moral facts or moral truths. However, objective is the common parlance among ethical theorists. The reason I don’t like it is that some people think we are using the word in the most literal sense. They think that if morals are objective they exist somewhere out there in space like rocks, mushrooms and frogs or protons, electrons and quarks. That’s not what we mean. Moral values and obligations are abstract “objects” (there’s the misleading term again) that exist in our minds. In that sense they are subjective, because that’s how we apprehend them, with our minds not our senses. However, moral values are socially quite useless if they do not carry binding interpersonal obligations. It is those interpersonal moral obligations that are “objective.” Maybe the best analogy to as to how moral values exist comes from the world of mathematics. What exactly are numbers? Where do they exist? Like moral values they are abstract objects which exist in our minds. Numbers for example have properties that are either true or false. For example, it’s true the numbers 1, 3 and 5 are odd and 2, 4 and 6 are not… that the numbers 9, 16 and 25 are perfect squares. Those examples are easy to see. But what about the number 179426369 is this a prime number? It either is or it is not. Your subjective opinion about whether it is or not does not make any difference. Whatever the truth is, it is an objective truth. In other words, truths about abstract objects like numbers or moral values are objective because they do not rely on someones subjective opinion. I know what the truth is, do you? Like Mackie someone could say that prime numbers are “a very strange sort, utterly different from anything else in the universe.” But just because they strike someone subjectively as being strange or queer, it doesn’t follow that they don’t exist.john_a_designer
June 21, 2018
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StephenB (49): That’s a clear explanation. Thanks.OLV
June 21, 2018
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J.L. Mackie (1917-1981) was an atheist professor of philosophy at several prominent universities including Oxford University. He was a champion of moral antirealism which denies the existence of objective moral values. He refers to his main argument as “error theory. Here is a brief description of what he means by error theory:
“There are no objective values.” So starts the first chapter of J.L. Mackie’s book, Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong, where he argues that there are no objective, universally prescriptive moral facts. His view is a cognitivist view, which means that our moral judgments express believes that have truth-value, but it is not an example of moral realism. Mackie argued that all of our moral judgments and beliefs are false. This is why it is called “Error Theory.” How does he argue for this position? His argument combines a conceptual claim about our moral judgments and an ontological claim about the existence of moral facts. 1) Conceptual claim: Our moral concepts are concepts of universally prescriptive, categorical facts in the world. 2) Ontological claim: There are no such facts in the world. Since there is nothing in the world that corresponds to our beliefs about moral facts, our moral beliefs and claims are all false. That is why Mackie’s view is called Error Theory, because we are literally in error.
https://hendricks87.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/mackies-error-theory/ The following is a video that refutes error theory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVR99xX5XI Here is one of the arguments it gives:
A Form of Mackie's Argument: P1- If naturalism and empiricism are likely, then torturing children for fun is not morally wrong. P2- Naturalism and empiricism are likely. C- Torturing children for fun is not morally wrong. Reversing Mackie's Argument: P1- Torturing children for fun is morally wrong. P2- If error theory is correct, "torturing children for fun is morally wrong" is not true C- Therefore, there is a problem with error theory.
It includes a podcast by an atheist philosopher who rejects anti-realism. As a Christian theist I cannot disagree with his logic. However, I would still argue that atheistic naturalism/materialism does not provide a sufficient basis for moral obligations. But in fairness he really doesn’t touch on that issue.john_a_designer
June 20, 2018
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Thanks Truth Will Set You Free @ 64. One day I was looking at leaf bugs (see the link below) and pondered how common such camouflage is in nature among biological organisms. For all those life forms to obtain just the sort of camouflage they need by mutations that occurred without the corresponding benefit as a goal struck me as so improbable that it’s essentially impossible. Only a God could set things up so that these and other wonderful life forms could emerge via Darwinian processes, while without God “Mount Improbable” is really “Mount Impossible”. http://www.wildborneo.com.my/images/cld07031009.jpg ____________________ Darwin made it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.Kas
June 20, 2018
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Kas @ 62: Well said. Love the tagline.Truth Will Set You Free
June 20, 2018
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JAD @ 59: "How can we trust anything any of them say if they are not obligated to be honest and tell the truth?" We can't.Truth Will Set You Free
June 20, 2018
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Ironically, in order to argue that there are no moral absolutes, one must deny one's own nature, because no one can live that way, and once you've denied your own nature, then there's no reason to accept your conclusions on anything, including the proposition that there are no moral absolutes. ____________________ Darwin made it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.Kas
June 20, 2018
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The objectivist would argue that there must be a real standard of honesty that applies universally to all members of society.
And that standard would be that we ought to say of things that are true that they are true, and that we ought to avoid saying of things that are true that they are false. And also, that standard would be that we ought to say of things that are false that they are false, and that we ought to avoid saying of things that are false that they are true. And every atheist/materialist/anti-id/anti-religion I have ever encountered holds this to be true as can be seen in almost every comment they make here and elsewhere. It's sad, really.Mung
June 20, 2018
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Since presuppositions are weighing so heavily in this debate on morality, it bears worth repeating that the materialist's primary presupposition of 'realism', (i.e. the belief that material reality exists apart from conscious observation), is now severely questioned, if not falsified, by Wheeler's Delayed Choice experiment, Leggett's Inequality, and Contexuality: A few notes to that effect:
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness - May 27, 2015 Excerpt: The bizarre nature of reality as laid out by quantum theory has survived another test, with scientists performing a famous experiment and proving that reality does not exist until it is measured. Physicists at The Australian National University (ANU) have conducted John Wheeler's delayed-choice thought experiment, which involves a moving object that is given the choice to act like a particle or a wave. Wheeler's experiment then asks - at which point does the object decide? Common sense says the object is either wave-like or particle-like, independent of how we measure it. But quantum physics predicts that whether you observe wave like behavior (interference) or particle behavior (no interference) depends only on how it is actually measured at the end of its journey. This is exactly what the ANU team found. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," said Associate Professor Andrew Truscott from the ANU Research School of Physics and Engineering. Despite the apparent weirdness, the results confirm the validity of quantum theory, which,, has enabled the development of many technologies such as LEDs, lasers and computer chips. The ANU team not only succeeded in building the experiment, which seemed nearly impossible when it was proposed in 1978, but reversed Wheeler's original concept of light beams being bounced by mirrors, and instead used atoms scattered by laser light. "Quantum physics' predictions about interference seem odd enough when applied to light, which seems more like a wave, but to have done the experiment with atoms, which are complicated things that have mass and interact with electric fields and so on, adds to the weirdness," said Roman Khakimov, PhD student at the Research School of Physics and Engineering. http://phys.org/news/2015-05-quantum-theory-weirdness.html An experimental test of non-local realism - 2007 Simon Gröblacher, Tomasz Paterek, Rainer Kaltenbaek, Caslav Brukner, Marek Zukowski, Markus Aspelmeyer & Anton Zeilinger Abstract: Most working scientists hold fast to the concept of ‘realism’—a viewpoint according to which an external reality exists independent of observation. But quantum physics has shattered some of our cornerstone beliefs. According to Bell’s theorem, any theory that is based on the joint assumption of realism and locality (meaning that local events cannot be affected by actions in space-like separated regions) is at variance with certain quantum predictions. Experiments with entangled pairs of particles have amply confirmed these quantum predictions, thus rendering local realistic theories untenable. Maintaining realism as a fundamental concept would therefore necessitate the introduction of ‘spooky’ actions that defy locality. Here we show by both theory and experiment that a broad and rather reasonable class of such non-local realistic theories is incompatible with experimentally observable quantum correlations. In the experiment, we measure previously untested correlations between two entangled photons, and show that these correlations violate an inequality proposed by Leggett for non-local realistic theories. Our result suggests that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments, unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7138/full/nature05677.html Should Quantum Anomalies Make Us Rethink Reality? Inexplicable lab results may be telling us we’re on the cusp of a new scientific paradigm By Bernardo Kastrup on April 19, 2018 Excerpt: ,, according to the current paradigm, the properties of an object should exist and have definite values even when the object is not being observed: the moon should exist and have whatever weight, shape, size and color it has even when nobody is looking at it. Moreover, a mere act of observation should not change the values of these properties. Operationally, all this is captured in the notion of “non-contextuality”: ,,, since Alain Aspect’s seminal experiments in 1981–82, these predictions (of Quantum Mechanics) have been repeatedly confirmed, with potential experimental loopholes closed one by one. 1998 was a particularly fruitful year, with two remarkable experiments performed in Switzerland and Austria. In 2011 and 2015, new experiments again challenged non-contextuality. Commenting on this, physicist Anton Zeilinger has been quoted as saying that “there is no sense in assuming that what we do not measure [that is, observe] about a system has [an independent] reality.” Finally, Dutch researchers successfully performed a test closing all remaining potential loopholes, which was considered by Nature the “toughest test yet.”,,, It turns out, however, that some predictions of QM are incompatible with non-contextuality even for a large and important class of non-local theories. Experimental results reported in 2007 and 2010 have confirmed these predictions. To reconcile these results with the current paradigm would require a profoundly counterintuitive redefinition of what we call “objectivity.” And since contemporary culture has come to associate objectivity with reality itself, the science press felt compelled to report on this by pronouncing, “Quantum physics says goodbye to reality.” The tension between the anomalies and the current paradigm can only be tolerated by ignoring the anomalies. This has been possible so far because the anomalies are only observed in laboratories. Yet we know that they are there, for their existence has been confirmed beyond reasonable doubt. Therefore, when we believe that we see objects and events outside and independent of mind, we are wrong in at least some essential sense. A new paradigm is needed to accommodate and make sense of the anomalies; one wherein mind itself is understood to be the essence—cognitively but also physically—of what we perceive when we look at the world around ourselves. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/should-quantum-anomalies-make-us-rethink-reality/ The Death of Materialism - InspiringPhilosophy – (Material reality does not exist without an observer) video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM0IKLv7KrE Materialism has been dead for decades and recent research only reconfirms this, as this video will show. This video was reviewed by physicist Fred Kuttner and Richard Conn Henry. A few other physicists reviewed this but asked to remain anonymous for privacy reasons. Contextuality is 'magic ingredient' for quantum computing - June 11, 2012 Excerpt: Contextuality was first recognized as a feature of quantum theory almost 50 years ago. The theory showed that it was impossible to explain measurements on quantum systems in the same way as classical systems. In the classical world, measurements simply reveal properties that the system had, such as colour, prior to the measurement. In the quantum world, the property that you discover through measurement is not the property that the system actually had prior to the measurement process. What you observe necessarily depends on how you carried out the observation. Imagine turning over a playing card. It will be either a red suit or a black suit - a two-outcome measurement. Now imagine nine playing cards laid out in a grid with three rows and three columns. Quantum mechanics predicts something that seems contradictory – there must be an even number of red cards in every row and an odd number of red cards in every column. Try to draw a grid that obeys these rules and you will find it impossible. It's because quantum measurements cannot be interpreted as merely revealing a pre-existing property in the same way that flipping a card reveals a red or black suit. Measurement outcomes depend on all the other measurements that are performed – the full context of the experiment. Contextuality means that quantum measurements can not be thought of as simply revealing some pre-existing properties of the system under study. That's part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. http://phys.org/news/2014-06-weird-magic-ingredient-quantum.html
i.e. Planck, Schroedinger, and Heisenberg's Theistic presupposition, that Consciousness is primary, has been born out experimentally:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. “The concept of the objective reality of the elementary particles has thus evaporated…”,,,; "The idea of an objective real world whose smallest parts exist objectively in the same sense as stones or trees exist, independently of whether or not we observe them,,, is impossible.,,, We can no longer speak of the behavior of the particle independently of the process of observation” - W. Heisenberg, Physics and Philosophy, Harper and Row, New York (1958)
bornagain77
June 20, 2018
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Here is a BBC article (a “secular” source) which discusses the difference between moral subjectivism vs. objectivism. Consider just one of the points the article makes:
"If I approve of something, it must be good" >Subjectivism seems to tell us that moral statements give information only about what we feel about moral issues. >If the simplest form of subjectivism is true then when a person who genuinely approves of telling lies says "telling lies is good" that moral statement is unarguably true. It would only be untrue if the speaker didn't approve of telling lies. >So under this theory it seems that all the speaker has to do to prove that lying is good is to show lots of evidence that they do indeed approve of lying - perhaps that they tell lots of lies and feel good about it, indeed are surprised if anyone criticises them for being a liar, and that they often praise other people for telling lies. >Most people would find this way of approaching ethics somewhat unhelpful, and wouldn't think it reflected the way in which most people talk about ethical issues.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/introduction/subjectivism.shtml The objectivist would argue that there must be a real standard of honesty that applies universally to all members of society. Indeed, society would break down if people weren’t obligated to be honest and tell the truth. Think of government, criminal justice or commerce. When people are dishonest our basic institutions begin to break down. We have a number of interlocutors who show up here who proudly self-identify as moral subjectivists. How can we trust anything any of them say if they are not obligated to be honest and tell the truth? Why would they be obligated if there is no real standard of honesty?john_a_designer
June 20, 2018
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As usual, the materialist skips right past the main question. Let's review my exchange with MatSpirit: MatSpirit quotes Dawkins:
Richard Dawkins is not just flapping his gums when he says, “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction . . .
Barry points out that is the same Dawkins who wrote:
The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
MatSpirit ignores the incoherence of his position and says:
but the most important one was, “What in the world makes you think God has good morals?
No, Mat. There is an even more basic and important question that absolutely must be answered before that question even makes sense to ask. Is your boy Dawkins correct when he says that on the materialist view, there is "no evil, no good"? After all, you are the one who brought Dawkins into the mix. Are you going to abandon him now? You have to answer this question Mat, before I can answer yours. Because if Dawkins is correct, and there is "no good" asking if God has "good" morals is literally meaningless. The ball is in your court. BTW, the obvious answer is that materialist premises absolutely drive Dawkins' conclusion. If materialism is correct, then so is Dawkins. Barry Arrington
June 20, 2018
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MatSpirit claims:
There are plenty of ways of comparing good and evil and just and unjust that he should at least heard of – things like comparing how he felt just before and just after getting punched in the nose, for instance, could give him insight into both. For that matter, his beloved mother died when he was a very young child and it affected him terribly. Surely he could compare his feelings before and after her death to get a very powerful comparison between good and evil.
Hmmm, the fatal problem for you, the Darwinian materialist, in all this is that material particles are completely amoral, "pitilessly indifferent". And yet you are referring to subjective conscious experience, i.e. 'feelings', in order to try to derive some primitive measure of what may be good and what may be evil. Yet, the existence of subjective conscious experience is even more impossible for Darwinian materialists to ever explain than the existence of good and evil are. ,, It is SO HARD, i.e. impossible, to explain that it is commonly referred to as the "hard problem' of consciousness. Thus the problem of differentiating what may be good and what may be evil becomes that much more acute for you, the Darwinian materialist, in that you, #1, have no material basis for saying anything is good or evil in the first place, and, #2, you have even less of a basis for the subjective consciousness, i.e. feelings, that you wish to use as a measure for determining whether something may be good or may be evil. Whereas I, the Christian Theist, have no problem whatever accounting for either morality or subjective conscious experience in that the existence of both are taken as a given in my starting presuppositions.
Isaiah 50: 4-6 ,,, He awakens Me morning by morning; He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple. The Lord GOD has opened My ears, and I have not been rebellious, nor have I turned back. I offered My back to those who struck Me, and My cheeks to those who tore out My beard. I did not hide My face from scorn and spittle. Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words “The Lamb” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tmka1l8GAQ 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
bornagain77
June 20, 2018
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Rado & Matspirit - Pain is bad pleasure is good is the most idiotic statement I have heard in many a year. And the golden rule do unto others , what if doing unto others caused you pain do you still do unto others,and what if you dont want to do unto others are you still obligated to do so. please save your armchair philosophy for the other materialist sheep you hang around with.Marfin
June 20, 2018
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Bornagain77, thanks for the William Lane Craig link in Msg 38. It reminded me of the C.S. Lewis quote you gave us in Msg 11: "“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” – C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity" What I don't understand is how an adult 20th Century English man could get through the major portion of his life without ever pulling a string tight and thus producing an admirable straight line to compare a crooked line to. There are plenty of ways of comparing good and evil and just and unjust that he should at least heard of - things like comparing how he felt just before and just after getting punched in the nose, for instance, could give him insight into both. For that matter, his beloved mother died when he was a very young child and it affected him terribly. Surely he could compare his feelings before and after her death to get a very powerful comparison between good and evil. Why do some people, including apparently Dr. Craig, need God to tell them if losing their mother is good or bad? Most of us figure that out by ourselves.MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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Barry @31: “I see you believe morals are objective.” Mat Spirit
Well, I do, but I don’t think you understand what “objective” means. Google “objective” and here’s the first reply you’ll get:
Sorry, but you are the one who does not know what objective means in this context.
1. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. “historians try to be objective and impartial”
That is one definition, but it is not the one that applies in this context. There is a subject (the investigator) and an object (the object of the investigation.) Thus, we have the subject/object relationship. In terms of morality, subjective means coming from the subject; objective means coming from outside the subject. That is why subjective morality is always changing and objective morality never changes. Unless there is an objective good, there can be no morality. Subjective morality says that there is no such thing as objective good, and therefore no foundation for objective morality. Objective morality, by contrast, says that the good does exist, from which the principles of objective morality are taken. Subjective morality comes from the mind of the individual, the "subject" or the investigator; objective morality comes either from the principles of nature and ultimately, the mind of God, (the "object" of the investigation). So your claim to believe in objective morality seems a little conflicted. Do you believe in it or not?IStephenB
June 19, 2018
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Barry @ 39: "BTW, MatSpirit, I see you quote Dawkins as follows: Richard Dawkins is not just flapping his gums when he says, “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction . . . Is that the same Richard Dawkins who wrote: some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference." I've had to chide Mrs. O'Leary for this a couple of times: READING COMPREHENSION! Note where Dawkins says "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all FICTION . . ." That word means that God doesn't actually exist. The universe, on the other hand, does definitely exist and it is non-sentient. That means it does not even know you exist and if you get in its way, the things Dawkins describes above will happen to you. Read twice and answer once or continue to lead with your chin.MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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Mat Spirit
The origin of the concepts of good and bad is our ability to feel pleasure and pain.
No it isn't. Please defend that proposition.StephenB
June 19, 2018
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Mat Spirt
Do you have some kind of extenuating evidence? Something that justifies the murder of thousands of children? I’d like to hear it. I’ll bet a lot of others would like to hear you justify murdering children too.
For what it is worth, I addressed that question @29.StephenB
June 19, 2018
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Radio @ 35: The origin of the concepts of good and bad is our ability to feel pleasure and pain. That which gives us or others pleasure we call good, that which causes us or others pain we call bad. If we couldn’t feel pleasure and pain, good and bad would make no sense. So in that sense good and bad are absolute, but the complexity of life makes them subjective and relative like most other things – some experiences are better or worse than others. Some believe that pleasure is a sin (bad), others that self-inflicted pain is a virtue (good)." Radio, you've found the most important step in figuring out if something is good or bad: What are it's effects on someone? Does it help them or hurt them? Throw in a few tools like the Golden Rule and you're well on your way to a sound moral code. Of course, if you're trying to accommodate the Bible's description of God's character, the world we live in with its various disasters and the claim that God is highly intelligent, knows literally everything and is Good, you're going to have to do the kind of logic chopping you see so much of of on this blog.MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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OLV
Both kairosfocus and you use the term “Is-Ought” but do they mean the same for both of you? Are they valid concepts for both of you?
Yes, kf and I both think of the “is” as the way things are (or the way the world is) and the “ought” as objective morality (how people ought to behave). The former is often referred to as descriptive whereas the latter is referred to as prescriptive. The question is this: Can we learn anything about the “ought to” from information provided to us by the “is?” Can we make a logical transition from the “is” to the “ought?” Are the two related in some way? Or, are they totally disconnected, as Hume and his followers insisted. Of the two words, “is” is actually more difficult to define because it can be thought of generally as anything that exists or in a more narrow fashion as the world of matter (physics/chemistry) or the world of human behavior. Since my adversaries define it in more general terms (everything that is) then so do I. (I am not sure how Kairosfocus would define it). And the definition does make a difference because, in my judgment, we can learn about morality from the “is” if by is we mean certain aspects of nature or human nature, as I pointed out in my post; but we cannot learn about morality from the “is” if by is we mean the principles of physics and chemistry or the different ways people happen to behave.StephenB
June 19, 2018
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Mike 1962 @ 22: "Allen Keith: Your bible says that killing homosexuals is objectively good, yet you are not willing to admit this. Actually, this was part of the Law of Moses that was only intended for Israel, not the world in general. Most Orthodox Jews acknowledge this. Christians differ on this (I otherwise have no comment), but the Torah was never intended for the world at large, only Yahweh’s covenant people." Wow! So the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) only count if you're Jewish! I didn't know that. Someone should tell Judge Roy Moore this. Here the poor man lost his job putting copies of the Ten Commandments in his courthouse and almost none of the people in his district are Jewish. The tragedy!MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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Barry @31: "I see you believe morals are objective." Well, I do, but I don't think you understand what "objective" means. Google "objective" and here's the first reply you'll get: 1. (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. "historians try to be objective and impartial" synonyms: impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, disinterested, neutral, uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, neutral In other words, morality should be based on facts, not how you feel about it. For instance, would you like to have your oldest child murdered? I'm going to guess the answer is no. So don't do it, even if you're God and you really, really want to show off your power. Have you got a bet going with Satan about how faithful Job will be when everybody he loves is killed? Then don't murder his children. He wouldn't like it, the children wouldn't like it and winning an idle bet with Satan is not near enough justification! And what was with killing the first born of every Egyptian family's cattle? That's just perverse. Next time you pray, tell God He should be ashamed.MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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Barry @ 31: ee, Barry, you asked a question, "But if God commanded someone to kill homosexuals, women who aren’t virgins on their wedding night and children who disrespect their parents, would that be objectively bad?" I answered, "Yes..." and went on to say it was as bad as God allegedly murdering the first born child in every family in Egypt. I also mentioned that the vast majority of those families had no influence what so ever over the Pharoah's actions with the implication that all the murders were entirely gratuitus. I also mentioned that Pharoah had decided, on his own, to release the Israelites at least twice and that God had deliberately hardened Pharoah's heart so God could continue wreaking havoc and destruction on the country. Frankly, I was sort of expecting some sort of a reply. Do you doubt me? I can provide chapter and verse if you do. Do you have some kind of extenuating evidence? Something that justifies the murder of thousands of children? I'd like to hear it. I'll bet a lot of others would like to hear you justify murdering children too. I asked some other questions too, but the most important one was, "What in the world makes you think God has good morals?MatSpirit
June 19, 2018
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OLV @ #44: To me "Is" refer to how things are in this world while "Ought" refers to Eden or heaven. How things are and how they were meant to be.PaoloV
June 19, 2018
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StephenB (30): Thanks for your comment. Both kairosfocus and you use the term "Is-Ought" but do they mean the same for both of you? Are they valid concepts for both of you? Thanks again.OLV
June 19, 2018
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If he changed his mind about the punishment, how do you know that he didn’t change his mind about the sin?
LoL!Mung
June 19, 2018
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Perhaps Dawkins, instead of molecular biology, was referring to the Copernican principle, sans Hawking, when he said, "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”???
“The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet, orbiting around a very average star in the outer suburb of one among a hundred billion galaxies. We are so insignificant that I can't believe the whole universe exists for our benefit.,,,” - Stephen Hawking - 1995 TV show, Reality on the Rocks: Beyond Our Ken,
But the Copernican Principle, and/or the Principle of Mediocrity, has now been overturned by both General Relativity and by Quantum Mechanics: Einstein himself stated, The two sentences: “the sun is at rest and the earth moves” or “the sun moves and the earth is at rest” would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS [coordinate systems].”
“Can we formulate physical laws so that they are valid for all CS [coordinate systems], not only those moving uniformly, but also those moving quite arbitrarily, relative to each other? […] The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: “the sun is at rest and the earth moves” or “the sun moves and the earth is at rest” would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS.” Einstein, A. and Infeld, L. (1938) The Evolution of Physics, p.212 (p.248 in original 1938 ed.);
Fred Hoyle and George Ellis add their considerable weight here in these following two quotes:
“The relation of the two pictures [geocentrism and geokineticism] is reduced to a mere coordinate transformation and it is the main tenet of the Einstein theory that any two ways of looking at the world which are related to each other by a coordinate transformation are entirely equivalent from a physical point of view…. Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is ‘right’ and the Ptolemaic theory ‘wrong’ in any meaningful physical sense.” Hoyle, Fred. Nicolaus Copernicus. London: Heinemann Educational Books Ltd., 1973. “People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations… For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations… You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds… What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.” – George Ellis – W. Wayt Gibbs, “Profile: George F. R. Ellis,” Scientific American, October 1995, Vol. 273, No.4, p. 55
As Einstein himself notes, there simply is no test that can be performed that can prove the earth is not the center of the universe:
“One need not view the existence of such centrifugal forces as originating from the motion of K’ [the Earth]; one could just as well account for them as resulting from the average rotational effect of distant, detectable masses as evidenced in the vicinity of K’ [the Earth], whereby K’ [the Earth] is treated as being at rest.” –Albert Einstein, quoted in Hans Thirring, “On the Effect of Distant Rotating Masses in Einstein’s Theory of Gravitation”, Physikalische Zeitschrift 22, 29, 1921 http://galileowaswrong.com/comments-on-geocentrism-conference/ "We can't feel our motion through space, nor has any physical experiment ever proved that the Earth actually is in motion.,,, If all the objects in space were removed save one, then no one could say whether that one remaining object was at rest or hurtling through the void at 100,000 miles per second" Historian Lincoln Barnett - "The Universe and Dr. Einstein" - pg 73 (contains a foreword by Albert Einstein) https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4njDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT73&lpg=PT73
Even Stephen Hawking himself, who claimed that we are just chemical scum on an insignificant planet, stated that it is not true that Copernicus proved Ptolemy wrong,,, the real advantage of the Copernican system is simply that the equations of motion are much simpler in the frame of reference in which the sun is at rest.”
“So which is real, the Ptolemaic or Copernican system? Although it is not uncommon for people to say that Copernicus proved Ptolemy wrong, that is not true. As in the case of our normal view versus that of the goldfish, one can use either picture as a model of the universe, for our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest. Despite its role in philosophical debates over the nature of our universe, the real advantage of the Copernican system is simply that the equations of motion are much simpler in the frame of reference in which the sun is at rest.” Stephen Hawking – The Grand Design – pages 39 – 2010
Even individual people can be considered to be central in the universe according to the four-dimensional space-time of General Relativity,,,
You Technically Are the Center of the Universe – May 2016 Excerpt: (due to the 1 in 10^120 finely tuned expansion of the 4-D space-time of General Relativity) no matter where you stand, it will appear that everything in the universe is expanding around you. So the center of the universe is technically — everywhere. The moment you pick a frame of reference, that point becomes the center of the universe. Here's another way to think about it: The sphere of space we can see around us is the visible universe. We're looking at the light from stars that's traveled millions or billions of years to reach us. When we reach the 13.8 billion-light-year point, we're seeing the universe just moments after the Big Bang happened. But someone standing on another planet, a few light-years to the right, would see a different sphere of the universe. It's sort of like lighting a match in the middle of a dark room: Your observable universe is the sphere of the room that the light illuminates. But someone standing in a different spot in the room will be able to see a different sphere. So technically, we are all standing at the center of our own observable universes. https://mic.com/articles/144214/you-technically-are-the-center-of-the-universe-thanks-to-a-wacky-physics-quirk
Whereas, on the other hand, in Quantum Mechanics it is the measurement itself that gives each observer a privileged frame of reference in the universe. As the following researcher commented, ""It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,"
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness - May 27, 2015 Excerpt: Common sense says the object is either wave-like or particle-like, independent of how we measure it. But quantum physics predicts that whether you observe wave like behavior (interference) or particle behavior (no interference) depends only on how it is actually measured at the end of its journey. This is exactly what the ANU team found. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," said Associate Professor Andrew Truscott from the ANU Research School of Physics and Engineering. http://phys.org/news/2015-05-quantum-theory-weirdness.html
In fact, in quantum mechanics humans are brought into the laws of physics at the most fundamental level instead of humans being a result of the laws of physics as Darwinists had falsely imagined us to be.
The Trouble with Quantum Mechanics - Steven Weinberg - January 19, 2017 Excerpt: The instrumentalist approach,, (the) wave function,, is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made.,, In the instrumentalist approach,,, humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal,,, Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,, http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2017/01/19/trouble-with-quantum-mechanics/
Richard Conn Henry who is Professor of Physics at John Hopkins University states “It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe.”
"It is more than 80 years since the discovery of quantum mechanics gave us the most fundamental insight ever into our nature: the overturning of the Copernican Revolution, and the restoration of us human beings to centrality in the Universe. And yet, have you ever before read a sentence having meaning similar to that of my preceding sentence? Likely you have not, and the reason you have not is, in my opinion, that physicists are in a state of denial, and have fears and agonies that are very similar to the fears and agonies that Copernicus and Galileo went through with their perturbations of society." Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics - John Hopkins University http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/quantum.enigma.html
In further establishing our centrality in this vast universe, in the following video, physicist Neil Turok states that we live in the middle, or at the geometric mean, between the largest scale in physics and the smallest scale in physics:
“So we can go from 10 to the plus 25 to 10 to the minus 35. Now where are we? Well the size of a living cell is about 10 to the minus 5. Which is halfway between the two. In mathematical terms, we say it is the geometric mean. We live in the middle between the largest scale in physics,,, and the tiniest scale [in physics].” - Neil Turok as quoted at the 14:40 minute mark The Astonishing Simplicity of Everything - Neil Turok Public Lecture – video (12:00 minute mark, we live in the geometric mean, i.e. the middle, of the universe) https://youtu.be/f1x9lgX8GaE?t=715
Here is a picture that gets his point across very clearly:
The Scale: 10^-35m to 10^-5m to 10^25m - picture http://www.timeone.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Robbert-Dijkgraaf-Planck-scale.jpg
Thus, contrary to what Richard Dawkins and other Darwinian Atheists would like us to believe, the fact of the matter is that the universe we observe has, at bottom, precisely the properties we would expect to see if our lives do indeed have intrinsic value, meaning, purpose and significance. In short, NO ONE is insignificant in God's eyes but everyone has intrinsic value, meaning and purpose:
Psalm 113:7 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the trash heap
bornagain77
June 19, 2018
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As Mr. Arrington noted at post 39, in the following quote Richard Dawkins outlines the amoral basis that is at the root of the Darwinian worldview.
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
Besides morality, "nothing but pitiless indifference" necessarily rules out that our lives have any intrinsic value, meaning, and purpose as well. But does "The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”??? I hold that modern science has answered that question with a resounding no. Even Richard 'selfish gene' Dawkins's own area of expertise, genetics, tells us that, as was mentioned in post 11, that the genetic responses of humans are intelligently designed in a very sophisticated way so as to differentiate between hedonic and ‘noble’ moral happiness:
Human Cells Respond in Healthy, Unhealthy Ways to Different Kinds of Happiness – July 29, 2013 Excerpt: Human bodies recognize at the molecular level that not all happiness is created equal, responding in ways that can help or hinder physical health,,, The sense of well-being derived from “a noble purpose” may provide cellular health benefits, whereas “simple self-gratification” may have negative effects, despite an overall perceived sense of happiness, researchers found.,,, But if all happiness is created equal, and equally opposite to ill-being, then patterns of gene expression should be the same regardless of hedonic or eudaimonic well-being. Not so, found the researchers. Eudaimonic well-being was, indeed, associated with a significant decrease in the stress-related CTRA gene expression profile. In contrast, hedonic well-being was associated with a significant increase in the CTRA profile. Their genomics-based analyses, the authors reported, reveal the hidden costs of purely hedonic well-being.,, “We can make ourselves happy through simple pleasures, but those ‘empty calories’ don’t help us broaden our awareness or build our capacity in ways that benefit us physically,” she said. “At the cellular level, our bodies appear to respond better to a different kind of well-being, one based on a sense of connectedness and purpose.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130729161952.htm
Moreover, even though Dawkins, in his quote, implicitly denied that our lives has any intrinsic meaning or purpose, every molecule of our bodies screams that we have meaning and purpose for our lives. As Denis Noble noted in the following article, "it is virtually impossible to speak of living beings for any length of time without using teleological and normative language—words like “goal,” “purpose,” “meaning,” “correct/incorrect,” “success/failure,” etc.”
“the most striking thing about living things, in comparison with non-living systems, is their teleological organization—meaning the way in which all of the local physical and chemical interactions cohere in such a way as to maintain the overall system in existence. Moreover, it is virtually impossible to speak of living beings for any length of time without using teleological and normative language—words like “goal,” “purpose,” “meaning,” “correct/incorrect,” “success/failure,” etc.” - Denis Noble - Emeritus Professor of Cardiovascular Physiology in the Department of Physiology, Anatomy, and Genetics of the Medical Sciences Division of the University of Oxford. http://www.thebestschools.org/dialogues/evolution-denis-noble-interview/
In the following article, Stephen Talbott challenges scientists and philosophers to "pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness"
The 'Mental Cell': Let’s Loosen Up Biological Thinking! - Stephen L. Talbott - September 9, 2014 Excerpt: Many biologists are content to dismiss the problem with hand-waving: “When we wield the language of agency, we are speaking metaphorically, and we could just as well, if less conveniently, abandon the metaphors”. Yet no scientist or philosopher has shown how this shift of language could be effected. And the fact of the matter is just obvious: the biologist who is not investigating how the organism achieves something in a well-directed way is not yet doing biology, as opposed to physics or chemistry. Is this in turn just hand-waving? Let the reader inclined to think so take up a challenge: pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness 1. One reason this cannot be done is clear enough: molecular biology — the discipline that was finally going to reduce life unreservedly to mindless mechanism — is now posing its own severe challenges. In this era of Big Data, the message from every side concerns previously unimagined complexity, incessant cross-talk and intertwining pathways, wildly unexpected genomic performances, dynamic conformational changes involving proteins and their cooperative or antagonistic binding partners, pervasive multifunctionality, intricately directed behavior somehow arising from the interaction of countless players in interpenetrating networks, and opposite effects by the same molecules in slightly different contexts. The picture at the molecular level begins to look as lively and organic — and thoughtful — as life itself. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/mental_cell_23.htm
Thus, if it is impossible for molecular biologists to speak of molecular biology for any length of time without using language that directly implies goal directed purposes, i.e. teleology, then it is hardly fair for Richard Dawkins, and other Darwinists, (such as Provine, Coyne, and Myer), to falsely claim that science has rendered any claims for intrinsic meaning and purpose for our live superfluous. As stated previously, every molecule of our bodies screams that we have a intrinsic meaning and purpose for our lives.bornagain77
June 19, 2018
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Bob O'H
But a mother who has been raped doesn’t (usually) lose her life. And she (and her rapist) have reproduced, which are both, according to you, good, and indeed higher goods. So what are the “bad effects”?
A woman who has been raped must endure many bad (evil) effects, such as loss of confidence, loss of self-esteem, compromised health, negative circumstances under which the pregnancy takes place etc. Even though life is an objective good, the circumstances surrounding its beginnings can be very bad.
So if survival and reproduction are higher goods, what about these unstated “bad effects”? They would seem to be lower goods, as they are not needs. Or is there
Life is an objective good and the desire to survive and reproduce are also objectively good. However, any good desire can be made bad by human choice. For example, the desire to reproduce (the sex drive) can easily degenerate into a lustful desire to use someone solely for sexual gratification. The desire to survive, which is naturally good, can degenerate into cowardice, leading a person to betray his country. Humans are really good at turning naturally good things into bad things. Lower goods exist for the sake of higher goods. For example, the good of pleasant taste exists for the higher good of staying nourished and remaining alive. The good of sexual pleasure exists for the higher good of producing children, forming families, and building communities. Any lower good can be perverted if separated from the reason for its existence.StephenB
June 19, 2018
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John, Yes, that is my experience too. But he said it was objectively wrong. Maybe he changed his mind. BTW, MatSpirit, I see you quote Dawkins as follows:
Richard Dawkins is not just flapping his gums when he says, “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction . . .
Is that the same Richard Dawkins who wrote:
some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.
Hmmm? Incoherent much?Barry Arrington
June 19, 2018
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