Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Key Thing to Remember

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Last week the Wall Street Journal published a brief list of the scientific problems with evolution, supplied by John West of the Discovery Institute. Scientists are well aware of these problems but it is probably worthwhile to spell them out occasionally in a major newspaper. Even more worthwhile were the responses supplied by evolutionist Dr. Eric Meikle. [1]

Meikle is the Outreach Coordinator at the National Center for Science Education and has several decades of experience in evolution research, teaching and advocacy. Not surprisingly Meikle’s responses to West’s four problems are typical. They can be found throughout the evolutionary literature, from popular treatments to textbooks, and they speak volumes.

The evolutionist’s response to fundamental problems with his theory is reminiscent of a salesman. “Don’t worry, just trust us” is the message which otherwise is void of any scientific depth. Evolution is a fact, even if we don’t have a clue how it happened.

Is it not a problem that most mutations (the supposed fuel for evolution) are harmful and the rare beneficial ones produce only minor changes? Not a problem reassures the evolutionist. Perhaps harmful mutations can turn beneficial if the environment shifts. And in any case, as Meikle explains, biologists are continuing “to research mechanisms that produce evolutionary advances.” So we’re supposed to ignore scientific problems on the conviction that they will be resolved by future research?

West also points out that natural selection does not explain the development of fundamentally new biological features and organisms. Again, don’t worry, replies the evolutionist, for the Darwinists are busy looking at other factors such as genetic drift, in which genes can spread rapidly through small populations even if they don’t confer a specific advantage. But of course this helps very little for West’s point would apply with equal force in the case of genetic drift. Science is not telling us that natural selection, or any other known mechanism, creates fundamentally new biological features and organisms.

What about those species appearing abruptly in the fossil record? It is as though, as Richard Dawkins once put it, they were planted there. Again it can all be explained if, that is, one is willing to speculate. The vagaries of the fossil record allows for several million years, explains Meikle, over which the species could have evolved in a rapid process that would have left few fossils. That’s convenient. The fossil species appear abruptly, so this must mean that evolution occurs rapidly, leaving scant trace of its prodigious activities.

Surely the origin of first life must be admitted to be a problem, for everything from the basic macromolecules to the cell seem to defy a naturalistic explanation. Yet evolutionists even here maintain their optimistic speculation. “Research on the origin of life,” assures Meikle, “is very active.” And some of life’s chemicals have been synthesized under simulated conditions while others occur naturally in outer space. But Meikle’s confidence is without support, for this research has revealed a host of profound problems, as any origin of life researcher knows. As if aware of the overstatement Meikle concludes that, in any case, we ought not “assume that simply because humans have not done something, it cannot have happened through natural processes.” In other words, never doubt natural processes.

Evolution may defy science, but since it is a fact we know it must have occurred, one way or another. In this house of mirrors the high claims are matched only by the mysteries in explanation. But not to worry. “The key thing to remember,” reassures Meikle, “is that the evidence of evolution is overwhelming and independent — it stands no matter what debate might arise about the precise mechanisms involved.” But it is precisely this “evidence of evolution” that Meikle just failed to provide. In the face of fundamental scientific problems, the evolutionist can only respond with automated replies about future research and the heroics of naturalism.

1. Stephanie Simon, “Critiques, and Defenses, of Evolution,” The Wall Street Journal, May 2, 2008.

Comments
Is the ratio of deleterious mutations to beneficial mutations really a problem?
It is if the majority of these "beneficial" mutations are only beneficial in a limited sense. As in, they're destructive modifications that are beneficial only in a limited environment. We're looking for constructive beneficial mutations that are not merely a reshuffling of existing genes via sexual recombination. I'll just quote myself.
We are looking for examples of mutations that are not only beneficial in relation to fitness but also in relation to the progressive/positive creation/significant (> UPB) modification of existing CSI. But that’s a different thing than the generally used “beneficial mutations”. If there is a generally-accepted term that encapsulates what you are looking for I’m not aware of it. It’s not CSI in general since that could be negative in relation to fitness. For example, if I were to tack a spoiler (like on a vehicle) and a retractable anchor onto a bird I think that would not be too beneficial… In Behe’s new book, the majority of the examples he discussed involved destructive albeit positively selected mutations, but not all. Behe also discussed the antifreeze glycoprotein gene in Antarctic notothenioid fish. In short, he says that it looks reasonably convincing as an example of Darwinian evolution, but that it’s a relatively minor development, and probably marks the limit of what Darwinian processes can reasonably be expected to do in vertebrate populations. So what we’re primarily looking for is the limitations on “constructive” positively selected beneficial mutations. The Edge of Evolution is an estimate and it was derived from the limited positive evidence for Darwinian processes that we do possess. This estimate would of course be adjusted when new evidence comes into play or abandoned altogether if there is positive evidence that Darwinian processes are capable of large scale constructive positive evolution (or at least put in another category if it’s ID-based[foresighted mechanisms]). The bulk of the best examples of Darwinian evolution are destructive modifications like passive leaky pores (a foreign protein degrading the integrity of HIV’s membrane) and a leaky digestive system (P. falciparum self destructs when it’s system cannot properly dispose of toxins it is ingesting, so a leak apparently helps) that have a net positive effect under limited/temporary conditions (Behe terms this trench warfare). I personally believe that given a system intelligently constructed in a modular fashion (the system is designed for self-modification via the influence of external triggers) that Darwinian processes may be capable of more than this, but we do not have positive evidence for this concept yet. But that’s foresighted non-Darwinian evolution in any case, and even if there are foresighted mechanisms for macroevolution they might be limited in scope.
Patrick
May 13, 2008
May
05
May
13
13
2008
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
I think immature comments like those from dreamwalker007 should just be ignored. In any case, he's now banned.Patrick
May 13, 2008
May
05
May
13
13
2008
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PDT
dreamwalker007, You really should learn how to read. No where did I say God doesn't care. He doesn't need our fawning or what we believe about him. He gave us a gift which is what love is about, not because He needs us to get support. What is your point in all this? To somehow make us look foolish. You should be about more mature things.jerry
May 13, 2008
May
05
May
13
13
2008
06:31 AM
6
06
31
AM
PDT
es58 at 11- Is the ratio of deleterious mutations to beneficial mutations really a problem? Say a bird lays 50 eggs in its lifetime. If the deleterious mutations outweigh the beneficial in 49 of those 50 young, and the beneficial outweigh the deleterious in the 50th, the 50th will be likely to produce more descendents than its siblings, and so the population will change. Even if the proportion of deleterious mutations is so high that a single bird is unlikely to produce an offspring with beenficial mutations, in a population of 1,000 birds or 1,000,000 birds, over 1,000 years, or 1,000,000 years, some beneficial mutations will likely be fixed. I expect it's a continuum. If the ratio of beneficial to deleterious was very high, evolution would go much faster than it does now, and if the ratio of deleterious to beneficial was very high (higher than it is now), evolution would go more slowly than it does, or if the ratio was high enough, not go at all.congregate
May 13, 2008
May
05
May
13
13
2008
06:11 AM
6
06
11
AM
PDT
jerry, Oh, so he really doesn't care what we believe about him? Whoa, you better tell the rest of the world about that, because they're all trying to push their own beliefs about him on everyone else. It's interesting that holy books like the Bible and Koran have God bending over backwards to gain support, performing miracles, sending prophets, declaring wars, yet according to you he really doesn't care.dreamwalker007
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
09:56 PM
9
09
56
PM
PDT
dreamweaver007, Sorry, I forgot the person who created the universe had an inferiority complex and needed reassurance that we care.jerry
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
09:13 PM
9
09
13
PM
PDT
Is it not a problem that most mutations (the supposed fuel for evolution) are harmful If you google this question, you find that talk origins says most are neutral (admittedly "minor"), but that 3 of 175 are detrimental; even if for some reason this is irrelevant, it doesn't look good to make statements that appear to be so easily refuted.es58
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
09:01 PM
9
09
01
PM
PDT
jerry, Yes, because of course I'm the ONLY one who's saying the designer is God. ;) "Second, you assume God is a simpleton who would respond to your experiment." Oh yeah, I forgot that God's all mysterious and such. :) From most common descriptions of God, he DOES care weather or not we believe in/accept him. Seems odd that he would miss a perfectly good opportunity to prove his followers right. While at the same time handing evidence over to everyone else. Oooooooh, mysterious.dreamwalker007
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
08:55 PM
8
08
55
PM
PDT
dreamwalker007, There are two problems. First, you assume the designer was God. Second, you assume God is a simpleton who would respond to your experiment.jerry
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
08:37 PM
8
08
37
PM
PDT
Have you observed new species coming about by an external designer? Here, I'll describe an experiment for you right now that, if successful, would scientifically prove once and for all that life can be created by a supernatural agent. Take 2 sterile petri dishes, labeled A and B, and have a person put them in an isolated environment. In another room, have a group of people pray for life to arise in one or the other petri dishes. Determine which one they pray for by a coin flip. Make sure that the group of people and the person handling the petri dishes don't contact which one they're praying for to eliminate any possible unconscious or conscious tampering. After a(n) hour/day/week/year, have the first person check the petri dishes for any bacterial growth. Repeat a number of times. If the petri dishes that were prayed for consistently grow something while the others don't, that's direct, repeatable, verifiable evidence for ID. You wouldn't even have to do that. You guys always point to the gaps in the fossil record as being a failing of evolution and imply that a designer acted at that point. If you could demonstrate something similar happening that could be clearly attributed to a designer, then your all set. Really any measurable affect that could be attributed to a designer would do. Heck, if you could change the mutation rate with prayer you'd make your case. I'm truly baffled at the path you take to try to prove your point. It would be so easy to demonstrate that God is responsible for these changes. Yet it hasn't been done.dreamwalker007
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
08:21 PM
8
08
21
PM
PDT
Not to croon on Kuhn too much, but if a theory is judged by its "explanatory power", we have merely replaced "better" with a synonym. It is akin to Einstein's math aesthetics, and despite the desire to do "empirical philosophy" on the theory, the best judge is the next generation. Since they are liable to have a higher IQ as well, perhaps there is more to this than "time will tell". Maybe we shouldn't try to convince our colleagues, but do a better job educating the next generation. And perhaps that is our opponent's goal as well...sheldonr
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
05:16 PM
5
05
16
PM
PDT
“I found that those of my friends who were admirers of Marx, Freud, and Adler, were impressed by a number of points common to these theories, and especially by their apparent explanatory power. These theories appear to be able to explain practically everything that happened within the fields to which they referred. The study of any of them seemed to have the effect of an intellectual conversion or revelation, open your eyes to a new truth hidden from those not yet initiated. Once your eyes were thus opened you saw confirmed instances everywhere: the world was full of verifications of the theory. Whatever happened always confirmed it. Thus its truth appeared manifest; and unbelievers were clearly people who did not want to see the manifest truth; who refuse to see it, either because it was against their class interest, or because of their repressions which were still "un-analyzed" and crying aloud for treatment.” Sound familiar?allanius
May 12, 2008
May
05
May
12
12
2008
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
This article points out the common tactics of stonewalling that Intelligent Design Scientists face; This stonewalling by evolutionists is very bad for science since it severely impedes the research and investigation of science into how complexity was truly implemented into life. (A truly promising area of research combining quantum non-locality and biology, that may have profound implications in medicine)bornagain77
May 11, 2008
May
05
May
11
11
2008
05:02 AM
5
05
02
AM
PDT
It's so frustrating to deal with these responses because they're contingent about assumptions of what we'll discover in the future, all biased towards the standard evolutionary perspective. What's more frustrating is that these responses find their way into quotes and become factual for people based on repetition alone. The cards are stacked in favor of the evolutionary perspective from the get go rather than being honest concerning the problems faced by the answers given. Of course it's a way of life, it's a job, for many people, so I couldn't expect any less. But like PaV said, it's like slight of hand. In fact that's what I've most compared it to.DAISHI
May 11, 2008
May
05
May
11
11
2008
12:23 AM
12
12
23
AM
PDT
[JDH] I have always considered the best question to ask an evolutionist is... “Given what we know NOW - NOT what might become known in the future - does your observations of the world favor design or chance as the reason for what we see.” Questions involving observations of the present are fatal to Darwinism. Along this theme, we can ask, "given what we know NOW about the population of dogs in my neighbourhood, what is the most fit dog?" There's no way to answer that. This question is also fatal to the analogies that biologists make between natural selection and genetic algorithms.Vladimir Krondan
May 10, 2008
May
05
May
10
10
2008
10:48 PM
10
10
48
PM
PDT
Neil: I have two of your books. I enjoy the clarity of your thought. Your analysis of Meikle's response also clearly identifies the deficiencies in evolutionary thought: "The key thing to remember,” reassures Meikle, “is that the evidence of evolution is overwhelming and independent — it stands no matter what debate might arise about the precise mechanisms involved.” But it is precisely this “evidence of evolution” that Meikle just failed to provide. It's like a magician's slight of hand. Maybe that's what Darwinism is......magic!PaV
May 10, 2008
May
05
May
10
10
2008
09:36 PM
9
09
36
PM
PDT
"...darwinists are busy looking at other factors such as genetic drift, in which genes can spread rapidly through small populations even if they don’t confer a specific advantage."
So much for the theory that NS passes along only the positive genetic information. I think David Berlinski was right when he said "The theory of Darwinian Evolution says whatever happens, happens. That's not a theory."Frost122585
May 10, 2008
May
05
May
10
10
2008
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PDT
I have always considered the best question to ask an evolutionist is ( note: someone here may be able to phrase it better but here is my attempt ), "Given what we know NOW - NOT what might become known in the future - does your observations of the world favor design or chance as the reason for what we see." If they answer that current observations favor some type of Darwinism + RM + NS, I feel they are being dishonest. If they answer that current observations still favor design, but we are doing work toward finding solutions that will show that evolution is correct, you have to wonder why, by faith, they are so committed to the anti-design position.JDH
May 10, 2008
May
05
May
10
10
2008
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply