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The Materialists Retreat

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Update:  There is a question at the end of this post.  After the first several comments, no one has addressed it, much less answered it.  I really am curious how our readers would answer.

In another thread Paul Giem made this statement:  “While some holes in a blanket assertion that a non-ID position can explain everything have closed, others appear to have opened up, the origin of life being one of them.”  Dr. Giem was responding to a common narrative among materialists:  “Materialist explanations always advance, and the number of phenomena susceptible to non-materialist explanations grows ever smaller.”

 

Let us consider this claim in the context of origin of life (OOL) and Neo-Darwinian Evolution (NDE).

 

NDE has a kind of first blush plausibility.  Taxonomic hierarchies lead inexorably to the conclusion that some species are more related than others.  With a little imagination (and I lot of metaphysical incentive), we can easily picture how “numerous slight modifications” over deep time would be a plausible explanation of how the species came to be.  And indeed Darwin’s theory has had a powerful grip on the imagination of much of the world for over 150 years.

 

Darwin did not delve into the OOL issue in depth.  (Indeed, with the state of scientific tools and knowledge at his time, it was impossible for him to have done so.)  But he did speculate, and to him goes the credit for the “little warm pond” scenario.  Ever since he and countless others following him have been charmed by the seeming plausibility of this and similar OOL scenarios.

 

To gain widespread acceptance, NDE and materialist accounts of OOL have absolutely relied on the natural human tendency to accept things at face value.  And this is a shame, because it is only when one delves into the details that the assertions become less and less plausible.  It follows that the less one knows about the facts, the more plausible materialist OOL accounts and NDE are.

 

This is where Dr. Giem is certainly correct, and the traditional materialist narrative had been turned on its head.  The more we have learned (especially in recent decades), the less plausible materialist accounts of these phenomena have become.  Far from forcing non-materialist accounts to retreat, these accounts (such as ID) have actually become more plausible and attracted a growing following precisely because we know more (not less) about the facts of the matter.

 

Consider, for example, this gem from Haeckel:  “Each of us was, at the beginning of his existence, a simple globule of protoplasm, surrounded by a membrane, about 1/120 of an inch in diameter, with a firmer nucleus inside it.”  Ernst Haeckel, Last Words on Evolution (London: A. Owen & Co., 1906).

 

How quaint.  We now know that every single cell is a bio-cybernetic chemical automaton able to self-replicate, self-organize, and perform metabolic functions by means of nano-level molecular machines controlled by internal digital software stored in information rich polymers.

 

Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible?

Comments
Axel:
But, surely, mapou, the more interesting point is that the omnipotent agent, as he gives every evidence of being, could just as easily have ‘poofed’ everything into existence, just like the Walt Disney scenario our dim-witted, materialist friends conjure for their ‘creation of something by nothing’ story.
Omnipotence, omniscience and infinity are all silly crackpot ideas, in my opinion. Sorry. And yes, I am Christian.Mapou
October 7, 2013
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Sorry to hear that, KN. At least you got me started on reading Richard Rorty.Alan Fox
October 7, 2013
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I have decided to withdraw (perhaps temporarily) from these discussions, for the following reasons: (1) I no longer believe that Uncommon Descent is a hospitable forum for examination of my criticisms of design 'theory' (as distinct from the design hypothesis, which I accept as a reasonable abductive 'leap'); (2) I believe that my pleas for a version of "liberal naturalism", as distinct from "materialism", in the sense of "whatever it is that design advocates oppose", have fallen on deaf ears; (3) I am presently writing a book on intentionality, normativity, and naturalism, and I no longer can afford the time and energy that I expended on my contributions to Uncommon Descent and The Skeptical Zone.Kantian Naturalist
October 7, 2013
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Jon Garvey, “the argument from gullibility.”, :) you my man are headed for philosophical greatness! :)bornagain77
October 7, 2013
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BA - Yes, I'm aware that it's the "argument from incredulity" - which states (I think) that it's invalid not to believe something because you don't have any reason to believe it. I know I should, to be a real OOL student, exercise the virtuous contrary principle, "the argument from gullibility." But they never covered that in any of my Cambridge courses.Jon Garvey
October 7, 2013
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Jon Garvey, it is unscientific to be a “sheer electronic fluke” denier! :)bornagain77
October 7, 2013
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As far as the state of knowledge of any normal reader of this (my) post can tell, it poofed into existence on their monitor without explanation. Given our state of knowledge of the universe and its probabilities, most will suppose there is an intelligence at my IP address which instantiated it by some actual action rather than magic. We have no known mechanisms for any other alternative, and "sheer electronic fluke" is, in practice, a non-explanation. Though to be honest, if the stats of this Universe or a many-worlds multiverse allow one to countenance seriously astronomically low probabilities, then this post is no less likely to arise from a random power surge ... in which case, don't reply. Stuff happens. There's every likelihood that, once instantiated in a semiotic state, my thought obeys known physical laws. But there must be a degree of agnosticism as to whether I typed it, dictated it to my wife or carved it in stone and got a large scanner to OCI it, because you're not here to check. The result is the same whichever method I used - but in all cases, intelligent agency is more probable than not, because a fellow in front of a computer has many known ways to compose a post, and no alternatives to that fellow are known. Analogously, many of the ways for a designer to originate life would be inaccessible to us now in the record: but even a process that could be seen in the fossils would not reduce the "intelligent" likelihood if no non-intelligent mechanism can be demonstrated. My post will always be more likely to be consciously-willed by a fellow with a computer than by an uncategorised outworking of chemistry or physics. That's because natural phenomona habitually recur - the basis of science - whereas intelligent acts are often unique. The fellow at the computer might be assumed to be human - but you've no guarantee whatsoever I'm not an alien infiltrator, an angel or a demon, provided I'm capable of instantiating rational thought about OOL into a semiotic state. But the last point is a logical (near-)necessity, whereas my identity is not. My thought processes themselves are entirely opaque to you: whether I wrote by stream of consciousness, did several much-corrected mental drafts or worked it all out whilst walking the dog - all that is inaccessible to you, and also irrelevant to the instantiation process. Even if you were in the room with me, the post would poof - at some finite speed - into existence on the screen, and you would have no way to access the thought that guided it - which is plausibly believed by many to be non-material in nature anyway. Mind cannot be tracked, nor can the mind/material interface. But once in the material realm, there must always be a nerve impulse, a finger, a keypad, an internet connection which fully account for the message - whilst *always* being *entirely* incapable of accounting for its information content. Observing a process unfolding in accordance with law no more obviates intelligence than watching a film does. It is the coherent result and the lack of any adequate non-intelligent agency that settles the case. So "under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible?" Easy, isn't it, I'd have thought? Under the same circumstances that provides a viable set of reasons for the spontaneous poofing of this post on to your monitor without intelligent origination.Jon Garvey
October 7, 2013
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A hilarious thread! I wonder if this thread should be left permanently on display, with materialism left exposed to the insights and satire. There are some excellent and very well-expressed insights, aren't there? 'It is obvious that lifeforms on earth were designed and formed over millions of years and that the designer(s) reused previous designs as much as possible.' - mapou But, surely, mapou, the more interesting point is that the omnipotent agent, as he gives every evidence of being, could just as easily have 'poofed' everything into existence, just like the Walt Disney scenario our dim-witted, materialist friends conjure for their 'creation of something by nothing' story. Unfortunately, their poofery manifestation doesn't have a magician - well attested in theism, I might add, as Philip noted, for those with ears to hear and eyes to see. They are just just riotously fanciful, numbskull, Walter Mitty-type dreamers. 'Nobody knows.' - Alan Fox Faith, even secular, and knowledge form a continuum. Isn't scientific knowledge always said to be imperfect - statistical? Correct me if I'm wrong on the second point.Axel
October 7, 2013
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Barry: Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible? I suppose I agree with Gil at #16. Neo-darwinism just needs facts that support its explanations. As the main point in the theory is that complex functional information can come out of a RV + NS mechanism, what the theory needs is just that: examples of complex functional information coming out of that mechanism. Of which there is absolutely none. The following would do: a) A new complex protein, with a new sequence and function, arising from unrelated precursors in a controlled biological system by those mechanisms. b) Any new complex functional digital information higher than some threshold (many have been proposed by IDists) arising in any kind of system by that mechanism. Lacking that, neo-darwinism remains what it has always been: a myth.gpuccio
October 7, 2013
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ID explanations?Alan Fox
October 6, 2013
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Nobody knows.Alan Fox
October 6, 2013
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I forgot to mention, creation is a positive argument based on our experience and the evidence in science and holds the default position until its proven otherwise. Anybody that believes that there can be another way needs to give extraordinary evidence to backup their extraordinary claim!
Sure but you need a creator who was around at the time in question, who had the necessary technical skill, etc. (Just a side note: we have lots and lots and lots of experience of humans creating things, not so much non-human creation.) so . . . who's your creator then?Jerad
October 6, 2013
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Johnny Mack @ 15 I kind of agree with you here. I am a Christian and the clearly states that God created plants first on day 3, then fish, and birds on day 5, and then humans and animals on day 6. Certainly an all wise, all knowing, and all powerful God could create using the poof method if He chose. Mappou says it is clear that things evolved over millions of years. Creationists do not feel this is consistent with the biblical record. We do believe in the poof method, however, that said, we do not believe that every single unique species was created on the first day of creation. God created on pair of every kind of animal and the biblical kind was probably more along the lines of family. We allow for all kinds of adaptation and evolution within the created kinds, but it would seem clear that there are limits to the change that can take place. In other words, the original pair of organisms had a rich information chocked full genome that already had the genetic information necessary for the adaptation that then took place as the animals filled the world and began living in different niches. As the animal specialized for a certain niche, it lost a lot of the necessary genetic information to live in other niches. It was evolution by information loss, not by information gain. And this is indeed the main type of change we see happening in nature today. As Mung said, at least creationists & IDers have a sufficient cause for their poof. Materialists are left believing in a magical poof without sufficient cause or reason.tjguy
October 6, 2013
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I forgot to mention, creation is a positive argument based on our experience and the evidence in science and holds the default position until its proven otherwise. Anybody that believes that there can be another way needs to give extraordinary evidence to backup their extraordinary claim!Andre
October 6, 2013
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Materialism can easily settle the issue if it does 2 things 1.) Show that something can come from nothing 2.) Show that life can spontaneously generate from inanimate matter. unless they can disprove that life only comes from life and that things that begin to exist does not have a cause I will hold onto the reasonable belief in a Creator.Andre
October 6, 2013
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But some of us believe in rational poofing and others believe in magical poofing.
Whatever that means! Rational poofing. hahahahahahahahahahahahJerad
October 6, 2013
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Just as a quick addition to my earlier comment: the same holds true for consciousness as well(ie - all our experience shows that conscious things only come from other conscious things), and that is why positions (such as theism) that posit consciousness as fundamental (meaning that consciousness always traces back to a conscious thing), are more rational, due to our uniform experience, than positions (such as materialism) that do not (meaning that consciousness alleged arises somehow from unconscious matter). RD MiksaRD Miksa
October 6, 2013
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OT-ish: a few more molecular machine videos: http://www.ted.com/talks/drew_berry_animations_of_unseeable_biology.htmlJGuy
October 6, 2013
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Good Day to All, Just a quick comment: The fact is, all our uniform and repeated experience demonstrates that life only come from life, and thus, based on this experience, it is at least initially more plausible and rational to hold to the Intelligent Design view (a living thing created another living thing), then it is to hold to the materialist view (concluding that non-living matter just became living at some point). So while they may both be solutions that are do not really explain how the first living things came about, the ID view is definitely more in keeping with our uniform and repeated experience than the materialist view is, thereby making the ID view more rational than the materialist one. Take care, RD MiksaRD Miksa
October 6, 2013
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Johnnymack @15:
And then “poof” there was life – it is rational to think of an Intelligent Designer and to even conclude that “poof”, there was not only life, but thousands upon thousands of various complex and even similar life forms. If we are going to believe in poof, then let’s believe in POOF!
I am a Christian and an ID advocate and I certainly do not believe that life on earth was poofed into existence. The scriptures specifically say that everything was created through wisdom and understanding. It is obvious that lifeforms on earth were designed and formed over millions of years and that the designer(s) reused previous designs as much as possible. This is why the species can be organized (classified) hierarchically. This is not unlike the way computer programmers reuse (via inheritance) existing classes to create new classes of objects. It's pure engineering and design. I don't see any "poof" at all in the ID picture. The magic "poof" exists only in the materialist (dirt-did-it) picture.Mapou
October 6, 2013
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Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible? Barry, the answer is very simple: If in some warm little pond with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, light, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed, ready to undergo still more complex changes... That would do the trick, don't you know? There is no debate among legitimate scientists that this process took place, and that the "more complex changes" were engineered by random errors filtered by natural selection, such that a self-replicating molecule eventually turned into Mozart in approximately 10^17 seconds (give or take a few). Only a science denier with no understanding of, or appropriate instruction in modern evolutionary theory can possibly not believe in the established, universally accepted, empirically verified, rock-solid scientific truth described above. Bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics, so there's proof that random errors and chemical reactions turned rocks into Rachmaninoff. How could this not be obvious to anyone who is not a deluded religious fundamentalist? Refute those arguments. I dare you!GilDodgen
October 6, 2013
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And then "poof" there was life - it is rational to think of an Intelligent Designer and to even conclude that "poof", there was not only life, but thousands upon thousands of various complex and even similar life forms. If we are going to believe in poof, then let's believe in POOF!Johnnymack
October 6, 2013
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Semi OT: Sean McDowell pretends to be an Atheist and challenges the audience of 500 to try to refute his arguments Sean McDowell Sunday - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq9f_n0n_-Ybornagain77
October 6, 2013
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So, what’s your proposed alternative?
The alternative is that nature is not a magic spontaneous generation fairy that the church of materialism has made it out to be. Life clearly only comes from life. Fundy materialists are the only ones desperate to shoehorn an atheistic creationism myth into science.lifepsy
October 6, 2013
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Barry Arrington:
Now, I ask you under which state of knowledge would a blind watchmaker materialist account of origins be more plausible?
Well, the question seems a bit anachronistic to me. :) Also, in the "blind-watchmaker" metaphor it's natural selection that is the "designer-mimic" and thus the entire metaphor depends on the prior existence of watches, so perhaps it should have been called "the blind-watch-tinkerer." My grandfather was an antique clock repair specialist and I am proud to own some of the clocks he passed down and I assure you he was not blind. But obviously, it's much easier to poof something simple into exist4nce than it is to poof something complex into existence. Isn't it?Mung
October 6, 2013
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the design view of things’ is that there was non-living matter, and then some unspecified intelligent being with unknown limits and abilities performed some sort of unspecified action, and then “poof!” there was life.
There are a lot of biologists who think this is a short time off.
That would really be arguing the other way than your thinking. There sure are a lot of biologists who smugly talk as if they've created life themselves half a dozen times and know all about it.butifnot
October 6, 2013
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That’s not entirely fair — but by the same standard of fairness, ‘the design view of things’ is that there was non-living matter, and then some unspecified intelligent being with unknown limits and abilities performed some sort of unspecified action, and then “poof!” there was life.
It is an implication of the evidence at hand. But ID posits a source capable to the task. Materialist have no such thing and grasp at straws. Our much improved understanding shows that materialistic explanations not only will not, but can not account for OOL.butifnot
October 6, 2013
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Mung @ 1:
It would seem that under the materialist view of things there was non-living matter and then “poof” there was life.
LOL. I love it when the poof believers get a taste of their own medicine. The Darwinist bunch don't realize that they sound like a bunch of superstitious dirt worshippers. Instead of the usual God-did-it religion, they have their own little dirt-did-it religion. Laughable, really.Mapou
October 6, 2013
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the design view of things’ is that there was non-living matter, and then some unspecified intelligent being with unknown limits and abilities performed some sort of unspecified action, and then “poof!” there was life.
There are a lot of biologists who think this is a short time off. The following is true
the design view of things’ is that there was non-living matter, and then some unspecified intelligent being(s) with unknown limits and abilities performed some sort of unspecified actions, and then “poof!” there was incredible inter related complexity.
An example, the Shroud of Turin.
the design view of things’ is that there was non-living matter, and then some unspecified intelligent being(s) with unknown limits and abilities performed some programmed actions, and then “poof!” there was incredible inter related complexity operating extremely functional machines.
An example, a computer programmer.jerry
October 6, 2013
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Phillip Johnson addresses the 'God of the Gaps' fallacy - video (the 38:50 minute mark of his lecture is where Phillip Johnson addresses the 'God of the gaps' fallacy) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zK5sqd1SKXo#t=2329s Randomness of the Gaps “In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.” Stephen L. Talbott: Atheism of the GAP - Rabbi M.Averick - August 21, 2013 Excerpt: What about a prosecuting attorney who says the following: “Ladies and gentleman of the jury, I know I have not presented any evidence that the defendant is guilty, but no one has yet proved that it is impossible for him to be guilty!” http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/atheism-of-the-gap/ Francis Collins, Darwin of the Gaps, and the Fallacy Of Junk DNA - video http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/11/francis_collins_is_one_of040361.htmlbornagain77
October 6, 2013
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