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The New Atheists Are Simpering Cowards

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Nietzsche was wrong and tragic and, in the end, insane. But at least he was brave and honest. Brave enough to stare into the abyss and honest enough to report back what he saw there. He would be disgusted by the puerile, simpering cowardice that characterizes atheism in the 21st century.

In Beyond Good and Evil Nietzsche writes of those who have cast off the restraints and bonds of the past: “Need I say expressly after all this that they will be free, VERY free spirit . . .” And from their vantage point of freedom these new philosophers will look down with contempt on those who espouse the ideals of Christianity and liberal democracy:

What [those espousing love and the equality of man] would fain attain with all their strength, is the universal, green-meadow happiness of the herd, together with security, safety, comfort, and alleviation of life for everyone, their two most frequently chanted songs and doctrines are called “Equality of Rights” and “Sympathy with All Sufferers”—and suffering itself is looked upon by them as something which must be done away with. We opposite ones, however, who have opened our eye and conscience to the question how and where the plant “man” has hitherto grown most vigorously, believe that this has always taken place under the opposite conditions, that for this end the dangerousness of his situation had to be increased enormously, his inventive faculty and dissembling power (his “spirit”) had to develop into subtlety and daring under long oppression and compulsion, and his Will to Life had to be increased to the unconditioned Will to Power—we believe that severity, violence, slavery, danger in the street and in the heart, secrecy, stoicism, tempter’s art and devilry of every kind,—that everything wicked, terrible, tyrannical, predatory, and serpentine in man, serves as well for the elevation of the human species as its opposite . . . such kind of men are we, we free spirits!

Nietzsche identifies two types of moralities: The Master-Morality, which he advances as superior, and the Slave-Morality, which he despises. To understand what Nietzsche is saying it is important to keep in mind what he means be the words “master” and “slave.” He is not talking about institutional slavery. When he uses the word master, he means the natural aristocrat, the strong man, the one who has the ability to impose his will. When he uses the word “slave,” he means simply the opposite of master, the natural servant, the weak man, the one who if nature were to take her course would serve the master. He describes the Master-Morality as follows:

The noble type of man regards HIMSELF as a determiner of values; he does not require to be approved of; he passes the judgment: “What is injurious to me is injurious in itself;” he knows that it is he himself only who confers honour on things; he is a CREATOR OF VALUES. He honours whatever he recognizes in himself: such morality equals self-glorification. . . . one may act towards beings of a lower rank, towards all that is foreign, just as seems good to one, or “as the heart desires,” and in any case “beyond good and evil”

In contrast to master-morality, slaves attempt to alleviate their condition by inducing the natural aristocracy voluntarily to cede their birthright, their right to impose their will on those who are too weak to resist:

It is otherwise with the second type of morality, SLAVE-MORALITY. Supposing that the abused, the oppressed, the suffering, the unemancipated, the weary, and those uncertain of themselves should moralize, what will be the common element in their moral estimates? Probably a pessimistic suspicion with regard to the entire situation of man will find expression, perhaps a condemnation of man, together with his situation. The slave has an unfavourable eye for the virtues of the powerful; . . . THOSE qualities which serve to alleviate the existence of sufferers are brought into prominence and flooded with light; it is here that sympathy, the kind, helping hand, the warm heart, patience, diligence, humility, and friendliness attain to honour; for here these are the most useful qualities, and almost the only means of supporting the burden of existence.

Nietzsche is especially contemptuous of democracy, which is the political expression of slave morality, and Christianity, the religion by which slaves conquered their masters. For Nietzsche nature is cruel and indifferent to suffering, and that cruel indifference is a good thing. The strong rule the weak and that is as it should be. And why should the strong rule the weak? Because that is the natural order of things of course. In a world where God is dead, objective morality is merely an illusion slaves have foisted on masters as a sort of self-defense mechanism.

When Nietzsche urges us to go beyond good and evil, he is urging us to recognize the implications of God’s death for morality. God is the only possible source of transcendent objective moral norms. If God does not exist then neither do transcendent objective moral norms. And if transcendent objective moral norms do not exist, neither do “good” and “evil” in the traditional senses of those words. There is only a perpetual battle of all against all, and “good” is a synonym for prevailing in that battle, and “evil” is a synonym for losing. In the story of the madman Nietzsche explored the profound loss felt at the demise of our comforting God-myth:

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: “I seek God! I seek God!” — As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? — Thus they yelled and laughed.

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. “Whither is God?” he cried; “I will tell you. We have killed him — you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

“How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us — for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out.

I feel like my ears are going to bleed at the bleating of the new atheists who write in these pages. They go on and on and on and on about how morality is rooted in empathy and the avoidance of suffering. Nietzsche would have spit his contempt on them, for they are espousing the “herd animal” Christian slave-morality he disdained and which, ironically, they claim to have risen above. How many times have the atheists insisted, “we are just as ‘good’ as you”? Why have they failed to learn from Nietzsche that “good” means nothing. Why do they insist that they conform to a standard that they also insist does not exist?

The answer to these questions is the same: They refuse to acknowledge the conclusions that are logically compelled by their premises. And why do they refuse? Because they are simpering cowards.

I can respect while disagreeing with a man like Nietzsche, a man who follows his premises where they lead, even if they lead to asking questions such as “Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us?” I have nothing but contempt for smiley-faced, weak-kneed, milquetoast atheism that insists that God is dead and all is well because we are just as nice as you.

Comments
Just to make sure I understand you right, Box. Do you mean to say that God can make evil a part of his plan?skram
February 9, 2015
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Skram: Barry, if I may give you a piece of advice, read this column by Rabbi Freeman: Was the Holocaust a Punishment from G-d? Like you, he does not agree with the idea that the holocaust could be part of God’s plan. Unlike you, he does not think the religious people who express this idea are beneath his contempt.
I'm a religious person who believes that we are here on this earth to learn - to become aware - and the only way is through suffering. So from my perspective the Holocaust may very well be part of the plan. It has certainly provided us with a lot of insight of who we are - which is paramount in my philosophy. At the same time it is perfectly clear to me that the Holocaust is TOTALLY EVIL. My point is: a religious concept which encompasses evil, like mine, is totally different from a subjectivist who claims that the Holocaust may not be evil. Such a subjectivist is saying something completely different and I don't even understand what.Box
February 9, 2015
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Fifthmonarchyman:
What more is there to say? I say How about addressing my comment in 45? I really want to know what a subjectivist does once they realize that their “moral Sensibilities” can’t be trusted to help them know what the right thing to do is.
OK, since you ask nicely … To a subjectivist, ‘the right thing’ comes from a complex mix of self-esteem, empathy and standing among peers. To the objectivist, it is an eternal matter. To take a caricatured view, ‘getting it wrong’ involves fire and brimstone and eternal torment. Consider a practical example, less hyperbolic than the usual baby-torturing: As a young parent, I attempted to ‘modify’ my son’s behaviour through physical chastisement. Nothing excessive, but I now deeply regret it. I felt it was ‘right’ at the time; I feel it ‘wrong’ now. I don’t regret it through any consequences – he’s a great lad, we have a good relationship, but I’m pretty sure we would anyway. I’m just rather ashamed of it. It was unfair, and achieved nothing. Should I feel angst because my moral view on the matter changed? Would I have a different, less malleable view if I were an objective moralist? OK, let’s look at the source of Objective Morality for most round here. Proverbs 13:24 says “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.". Is that OK? If I don’t whack my son with a stick, I hate him? What nonsense! Oh, it’s just metaphorical! Oh, it doesn’t mean daily, just once a month or so … rationalize away, objectivists. Ultimately, you will have a personal opinion on the matter: on the fact, circumstance and degree. So spare me the repetitious “what about someone else who ‘prefers’ to beat the crap out their kid?” relativist rejoinders.Hangonasec
February 9, 2015
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@ 68 REC you say 'What no one seems quite able to answer is why they are able to objectively conclude, without chance of being wrong, that they have got it right and the Protestant theologian Nazis, or the slave owning Christians, or Pastor Hagee (an all good God willed the Holocaust), etc. got it so damned wrong. ' Well at the risk of sounding like a 'soothsayer' I would like to point you to my post @76 where I concede that the subjectivist view can be held by a theist (certainly according to the Bible it is a common and serious problem for the believer) where I say 'everyone doing right in his own eyes so this is not a new phenomenon and applies to believers and non believers' These peoples actions can be refuted by the Bible or explained by the Bible. So for the protestant Nazi sympathisers I would use the Bible to argue against their position thus making use of objective morality despite their justifications, they, according to the Bible, were wrong to support the Nazis. Hence the beauty of an objective moral standard. As for slavery that is more complex. As an objective moral standard then the Bible can be used because it says 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' and 'love your neighbour' So what ever their (the Christian slave owners) argument or justification was (unknown to me please feel free to share if you know) then it was against the clear teaching of Christ unless they wanted to argue that they would be happy for the same to be done for them (seems unlikely) Now the Bible (OT) does seem to take a lax line on slavery (at first blush), however it was just a way of life back in the days when it was written. Although it may seem small consolation to our modern standards the Bible was the first religion to give slaves any rights what so ever. Indeed the Israelites them selves had been slaves and were expected to apply a higher standard of ownership. Also they, under these rights' were expected to free their slaves after a certain amount of time and it may surprise you to find out that not all slaves wanted to leave, such was the state of the world back then, that slavery under Israelite civilization was better than freedom in the world. They were in the most part well treated (certainly by the standard of the day) Is that soothsaying? I think it is a solid enough explanation for those that able to hear it. As for Pastor Hagee he can answer for himself although there is the principle that once the supposed 'God fearing civilization' has accepted moral relativism that God will act, allowing them to suffer and the result tends to be that they turn back to Him. So I would say that the only thing that will get western civilizations back to Christianity will be the suffering that comes from abandoning it in favour of our own wisdom i.e. scientismDillyGill
February 9, 2015
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Barry, If I may give you a piece of advice, read this column by Rabbi Freeman: Was the Holocaust a Punishment from G-d? Like you, he does not agree with the idea that the holocaust could be part of God's plan. Unlike you, he does not think the religious people who express this idea are beneath his contempt. He at least makes an attempt at an actual argument:
Concerning the holocaust, I know that here, too, there are those who would read this as G-d forbid, a punishment. But the Rebbe regarded that an intolerable affront not only to the Jewish people, but to their G-d. As the Rebbe once put it, "It is impossible that the Holocaust was a punishment for sins. Even the Accusing Angel himself could never find sufficient sins in that generation to justify the extermination of six million holy martyrs with such unspeakable cruelty."
Granted, this is not much of an argument. In fact, there can't be much of an argument because no human can know the mind of God. One can simply declare "I don't think it could be part of God's plan." But that's it. So there is a reason you avoid getting into a discussion. You have no logical response.skram
February 9, 2015
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Jerad says, Being of faith, believing in an ultimate and loving god seems to be no guarantee of civilised behaviour. I say, Yes so what does that have to do with anything? We are all sinners. That is one of the central themes of Christianity. That is why we can't rely on our own opinions. quote: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jer 17:9) end quote: The point is not that belief in God magically makes you good. It's that God is the only possible grounding of what is good. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 9, 2015
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skram:
Do you plan to address my argument or is an ad hominem response all you can muster?
Barry, through the loudspeaker in the ceiling:
UDEditor: You, sir, say it is possible that the holocaust was not evil. You are beneath my contempt and as such you are beneath my notice.
Translation from Barryspeak: No, I don't have an argument. Let me try an argumentum ad hominem one more time.skram
February 9, 2015
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Mark frank says, Some people’s moral sensibilities change a lot, others more slowly. Is that grounds for mistrust? It depends why they change. I say, Often for me it depends on whether I am looking to rationalize my own behavior or judging the behavior of others. An action that is wrong for others seems to be OK when I do it. you say, The important point is that exactly the same applies to an objectivist and their attempts to assess the objective truth about morality. I say, I agree that is my point. It seems to be a universal experience that our moral sensibilities change depending on if we are evaluating the actions of others or trying to justify our own actions. If our sensibilities are so fickle they obviously can't be trusted. That Is why I am a Objectivist I can't trust my own opinion on moral questions. As far as I can tell I'm left with revelation or despair when it comes to doing the right thing. I'm asking what the Subjectivist does when he realizes that his moral sensibilities are untrustworthy. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 9, 2015
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"UDEditor: You, sir, say it is possible that the holocaust was not evil. You are beneath my contempt and as such you are beneath my notice." Is it OK for a religious person to say that it is possible that the inquisition, "holy wars" and the crusades were not evil...?Quest
February 9, 2015
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It is hard to take anything other than a black and white view on these things when the evolutionary dept are taking the view that theirs is the absolute truth, that all descent is some mislead instinct or mental illness. They achieve this by trading on the name of science. It is not I that has insisted that all others are wrong, nay, it is the dept of evolution. There in lies the problem. I have not always been a theist. So I am not so unsympathetic to your views as you may think from reading my post.DillyGill
February 9, 2015
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DillyGill #76
Jerad asserts @2 ‘trying to live rationally’ Well I disagree that any such effort is being made. The atheist denys the argument from design despite the evidence. Now if they were conceding points and acknowledging that their own world view is a statement of faith then the word rational could arguably be used. So because they deny that the high levels of complexity found in biological systems are explained very effectively as the product of design (i.e. causally adequate unlike their pet theory) it is then a natural jump to denying that what appears to be a objective morality is such, having denied the first premise then denying the second is easy. ‘it only appears to be designed’ then ‘it only appears to be objective’
So at the table of discourse they demand theirs is the right view because their philosophical commitment is true, not because the evidence demands it, just like the origins debate and just as kf pointed out early in one of the other threads, it all comes down to foundational views. Now the reason they are getting heard so well by the public (aside from the brain washing at school) is not because the evidence demands them to be right (by their own admission) rather because man has gotten a good (plentiful) taste for sin and moral subjectivism. (my own personal view of course)
Well, since you've pretty clearly already decided that some other viewpoints are wrong and irrational there's not much point in discussing it any further. I was going to ask you how it is that intelligent, thoughtful, rational people can look at the same evidence and yet still profoundly disagree on it origination but you don't think people who disagree with you about intelligent design are rational. Never mind. You're not really interested in understanding dissenting views at all are you? They're just wrong.Jerad
February 9, 2015
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Jerad runs into trouble at post 2 nicely picked up on by florabama at post 54 Jerad asserts @2 'trying to live rationally' Well I disagree that any such effort is being made. The atheist denys the argument from design despite the evidence. Now if they were conceding points and acknowledging that their own world view is a statement of faith then the word rational could arguably be used. So because they deny that the high levels of complexity found in biological systems are explained very effectively as the product of design (i.e. causally adequate unlike their pet theory) it is then a natural jump to denying that what appears to be a objective morality is such, having denied the first premise then denying the second is easy. 'it only appears to be designed' then 'it only appears to be objective' So at the table of discourse they demand theirs is the right view because their philosophical commitment is true, not because the evidence demands it, just like the origins debate and just as kf pointed out early in one of the other threads, it all comes down to foundational views. Now the reason they are getting heard so well by the public (aside from the brain washing at school) is not because the evidence demands them to be right (by their own admission) rather because man has gotten a good (plentiful) taste for sin and moral subjectivism. (my own personal view of course) Now the Bible puts this in the terms 'everyone doing right in his own eyes' so this is not a new phenomenon and applies to believers and non believers. With out a healthy fear of God any party is subject to fall into the trap and with out a healthy love of God (putting God first as in the first commandment with our modern day 'gods' being money, sex, relationships, work, tv, celebrity worship etc...) the believer is just as on the road to ruin as the non believer. Because that is how the Bible describes this phenomenon, this is the road to ruin. It is the love of sin that leads to evil. It may not be immediate but it will happen.DillyGill
February 9, 2015
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MF @ 74 -
It is just about how much Barry dislikes us.
Ah, but is this dislike objective or subjective?Bob O'H
February 9, 2015
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It is striking how much of the debate on this thread and its predecessor is about the anticipated consequences of subjectivism. Barry clearly thinks they are disasterous and we have not faced up to them. Obviously I disagree but anyhow this is not evidence for or against the truth of subjectivism. It is just about how much Barry dislikes us. If it were true that subjectivism had all these awful consequences it might be a reason for keeping it secret, although personally I think hardly anyone except philosophers even thinks about metaethics.Mark Frank
February 8, 2015
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5MM #45 I did prepare a response on the other thread and then found comments were closed. Some people’s moral sensibilities change a lot, others more slowly. Is that grounds for mistrust? It depends why they change. If you learn something new then it is completely reasonable to change – and learning something new can be, for example, getting to know a gay couple as opposed to judging from theory. If your idea of right and wrong seems to just change with the wind then clearly you might “mistrust” your decision in the sense that you may regret it tomorrow. The important point is that exactly the same applies to an objectivist and their attempts to assess the objective truth about morality.Mark Frank
February 8, 2015
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#57
Or when evil men wake up and decide that Jews are life unworthy of life
You are aware, I trust, of the many pogroms levied against the Jews in Europe long before Hitler was born? I live near York and the Jewish massacre of 1190 is infamous. Everyone should be aware of the Christian Crusaders who, when reconquering Jerusalem during the Crusades, made the streets run with blood? Then there's the Albigensian and Waldensian crusades, Christians killing other Christians over (supposedly) disagreements in doctrine. And Northern Ireland is still not settled. Being of faith, believing in an ultimate and loving god seems to be no guarantee of civilised behaviour.Jerad
February 8, 2015
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"This type of argument really gets you nowhere." In a debate, when one side says "stop saying that" isn't it a bit of a tell? I don't think you like being reminded how nice some secular societies are and how horrifically some "objectivist" societies have behaved. "we don’t agree on how it (objective morality) applies" So you're subjective in its application. Which is evil and contemptible. Right? Barry? "I think the disagreements over the tenets are minor in the extreme." Like slavery, gay marriage, the holocaust. Baby torture for fun, probably agreed.REC
February 8, 2015
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REC @68, This type of argument really gets you nowhere. While objectivists agree that an objective morality exists, we don't agree on how it applies even if we did disagree on some of the tenets. I think the disagreements over the tenets are minor in the extreme. Where the big problem lies is in how far to spread those tenets; to whom they apply. "Who is my neighbor?" Otherwise, objectivists need only to point to the fact that not everyone keeps the tenets, even if they believe in them. They break them, thereby creating an illusion that they don't hold the same tenets as others. Not only do they break them while advocating them, but they also rationalize away things that, really, they do believe. Subjectivists don't disagree with this, so, in saying that some people, somewhere, did some thing, it doesn't follow that it shows they had a different idea of morality. And further, when I or others point to, say, Matthew starting from chapter 5 onwards, you'll simply laugh and say "prove it." Most often, then, your demands to be shown this "Objective Moral Law" are simply ignored, and we continue to show you, whether or not a codified code exists somewhere to which we all agree, that it is irrational not to accept that one exists, even if we don't exactly perfectly know it.Brent
February 8, 2015
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You can’t be that thick, Daniel King.
By their own subjective moral standards, being banned for disagreement is WRONG.
Mr. Arrington has already stated that nobody has been banned for disagreement. Since only he can know his subjective mind, all you can do is take his word for it. Insisting that Mr. Arrington has banned someone for reasons other than those he has stated may serve your martyr complex, but so what? In any event, even if the moderator bans you for a reason he has said he will not ban anyone for, what of it? According to subjectivists, morality is subjective; if he changes his mind or misleads you and subjectively feels at the time it is warranted, he's just doing what moral subjectivists claim he has a perfect right to do any time he wishes. It's so funny to see moral outrage at several sites directed at Mr. Arrington by self-proclaimed moral subjectivists as if there is some standard of behavior he should adhere to at his own site other than doing whatever he strongly feels like doing at the time. It's the old "you're not being a good christian" ploy, as if getting theists to act in a manner they (atheists) consider "immoral" somehow makes their position more tenable or laudable in comparison - all the while employing the assumption that morality is, in fact, objective in nature to give their accusations and supposedly superior moral behavior value.William J Murray
February 8, 2015
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"AND IT IS NOT JUST MY OPINION! IT IS GOD’S OWN TRUTH. You sniveling coward. You disgust me." Funny that there is a new post on the anger of atheists. On this blog. Ha! But back to the quote--isn't it rather, your interpretation of what you believe is God's own truth? What no one seems quite able to answer is why they are able to objectively conclude, without chance of being wrong, that they have got it right and the Protestant theologian Nazis, or the slave owning Christians, or Pastor Hagee (an all good God willed the Holocaust), etc. got it so damned wrong. You soothsayers, you sole purveyors of God's truth are no different than the Gay-haters, the lynchers, the slavers, the protestant Nazis who knew what their God demanded.REC
February 8, 2015
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WJML
So? Under moral subjectivism, all you are doing is whining about what your own philosophy grants are completely moral acts in their own right by whomever enacts them.
We weren't discussing the morality of Barry's actions. I merely pointed out that StephenB's lofty proclamation was dead wrong. Argue with that, genius.skram
February 8, 2015
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skram said:
Since a number of us are banned in one way or another, attempts to silence are manifest.
So? Under moral subjectivism, all you are doing is whining about what your own philosophy grants are completely moral acts in their own right by whomever enacts them.
Whether the banning is deserved is a different question.
Under moral relativism, it's not a "question" at all. If they are banned, the fact that they are banned factually indicates they deserved being banned by the only arbiter available: the person with the power to ban them felt like doing so. You act like you have an expectation that others should adhere to your personal moral compass.
The fact remains that people are being silenced. There is no denying that.
Another fact is the title of this blog, the software being used to run it and the language it appears in. So? You blither on about being silenced as if some kind of universal line has been crossed instead of it being what you insist all morality is - someone's personal standards being forced on others. I'd have to add the term "hypocrites" to Mr. Arrington's assessment. You guys are like some guy claiming to be vegan because he believes all living things are sacred chowing down on salmon because, you know, fish isn't meat, walking around in leather shoes and a belt - "oh, and occasionally I eat chicken ..." You're not moral subjectivists; you're just a bunch of poseurs who think it's brave and cool to intellectually rebel against the idea of moral objectivism while in fact serving it with every word and action.William J Murray
February 8, 2015
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Well, I seriously don't like it when the subjectivist dodges, dances, misdirects, engages in doublespeak, etc. to continue in their irrational views. Nothing said in this thread is new in that regard; all of those things have been said point blank to probably each and every individual subjectivist poster here. I'm not exactly sure why generalizing those points is so upsetting, and especially since those points have been made repeatedly for years here, to the very same posters, and we have indeed continued to coexist somehow. I surmise that we have continued to coexist, at least in part, because there is a certain fondness held for these posters who we still get extremely frustrated with over these issues. At least speaking for me, and I think Barry had mentioned to MF the other day something similar, they seem like decent enough fellows. That doesn't mean that my and our concerns are not actually grave. The subjectivist isn't going to deny that everyone, including himself, justifies his/her actions sometimes in order to get around their own strongly held moral values. What is scary is that, on subjectivism, the doors have been opened wide and there is nothing to stop the wholesale rationalizing of each and every held value; indeed no rationalizing is necessary. All that said, my main point is that I don't think most (I have my doubts on some) subjectivists are playing games with US, but it is a 'game' for themselves, to see how long they can hold out without admitting what they must already very strongly suspect, that their subjectivist views are not truly morality at all, unless there is a ground to make them binding. I hope this is the case, and that they are just fending off the onslaught until they can finally see a way to make their idea coherent. If they still have this basic desire to get to a rational grounding, then there is still hope. I know that I still have hope for them. Perhaps that is in itself offensive to the subjectivist to hear, but how angry can one be with someone who is hoping for their good, even if he was mistaken about what that good was? I know this all comes back to God, too. I'm sure the materialist can only see and hear from us what his fear is, really, of God. But no, God is not standing there with a big stick just waiting to get His hands on you and change you into someone you are not. You are more you with God than you can ever hope to be without Him. Paradoxically, freedom is only really freedom when it is within certain bounds. Like Chesterton said (with apologies for quoting him so often), if we are free to draw a giraffe without a long neck, then we are not free to draw a giraffe. Things are only what they are within certain bounds. We are only truly who we are within certain bounds. We are more ourselves than we can ever otherwise be when we are firmly within God's arms.Brent
February 8, 2015
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WJM @ 60: It is worse than that. They can't bring themselves to say it is impossible for the holocaust to have been other than evil. But that are certain beyond the slightest doubt that the moderation policies of this blog are wrong. They make me want to puke. I will give them this, though. They have demonstrated the truth of the thesis advanced in the OP.Barry Arrington
February 8, 2015
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Rec said, The only difference between fifth and I is that I don’t think my sense of right and wrong is divinely granted (and, therefore, by definition, I could be wrong). I say, What? The reason that I'm an objectivist is precisely because I know I could be wrong and therefore can not rely on my own opinion. I'm not sure how you missed that. What I want to know is what you as a subjectivist do when you realize that your moral sensibilities can not be trusted to tell you what the right thing to do is. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 8, 2015
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William J Murray, Comments about IP bans were in response to StephenB's statement:
In fact, we are co-existing with you. No one has silenced you or edited your comments.
Since a number of us are banned in one way or another, attempts to silence are manifest. Whether the banning is deserved is a different question. The fact remains that people are being silenced. There is no denying that.skram
February 8, 2015
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You can't be that thick, Murray. By their own subjective moral standards, being banned for disagreement is WRONG. And that's what they've been saying all along.Daniel King
February 8, 2015
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The moral subjectivists seem to think there is something worth pointing out if they are banned or their IP blocked, or if they are characterized negatively, as if the moderator wouldn't be perfectly justified by his own subjective moral compass in doing whatever he wishes according to his own personal standards. Denied any transpersonal, binding moral authority by their own worldview, one wonders what on earth they think they are complaining about? Or why they are complaining at all? Why do they keep borrowing moral objectivism to find a reason to complain about such things, when all they are really saying is: "I don't like it when you do that!"William J Murray
February 8, 2015
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Hey Barry, Do you plan to address my argument or is an ad hominem response all you can muster? UDEditor: You, sir, say it is possible that the holocaust was not evil. You are beneath my contempt and as such you are beneath my notice.skram
February 8, 2015
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Barry-you've tried a silly double bind. If I say I know something for certain (I cannot be wrong) than you will call me an objective absolutist. Actually, you even jumped the gun and did so in the other thread! If I say there is no objective transcendent law, and that I could be wrong (however slim and revolting I find that--no matter how I would fight it) then you call me evil. It is cute, but I don't think it would even win a high-school debate round. It is transparent and juvenile. And I think that your objective and transcendent morality gives you clear guidance through history on only baby-torture (for fun) and the holocaust* is telling. *Though a famous pastor with major GOP-ties (Hagee) believes God willed the Holocaust to move Jews back to Israel. An all good God can't cause something purely evil, can it? UDEditors: I am glad you understand the choice that must be made is inescapable. You can do logic. That you would try to escape it nevertheless makes you a coward.REC
February 8, 2015
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