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The origin of abiotic species: Seven epic fails

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A team of researchers led by Professor Sijbren Otto of the University of Groningen, in the Netherlands, has announced that it has observed not only self-replication, but also mutants and even new “species,” in a bunch of molecules in the lab. Does this research show how life might have arisen spontaneously, or is it nothing more than a case of intelligent design by clever chemists?

In today’s post, I’m going to argue that the claims made by Professor Otto and his team are flawed, on no less than seven counts. But before I examine their press release and their paper in Nature Chemistry, I’d like to discuss a Science LinX video that was posted on Youtube last year (March 17, 2015), titled, “Chemical evolution: creating life?”, which explains the work being carried out Otto and his group:

The text of the video reads as follows (note: all bold emphases shown in this post are mine – VJT):

This is Sijbren Otto, a chemistry researcher from Groningen. A while ago, he and his research group discovered molecules that can reproduce. Start out with a handful, and after a while, you’ve got twice as many. A bit later, there are four times as many, and so on. There are even different kinds of reproducing molecules that compete for building blocks. “That looks exactly like animals competing for food,” Otto thought. Now, he wants to trick molecules into real evolution – you know, the Charles Darwin kind of evolution that all living organisms have been going through for some four billion years. Who knows? His research might one day result in some kind of chemical life form.

It all started with a pot of pretty simple molecules able to couple on two sides. Also, they have a little tail that exactly fits the tail of the other molecules. The idea was that this would help create some structure. And so it did. The molecules hook up and form rings, counting six, seven or eight molecules each. And as the tails fit onto each other, so do the rings. A six-ring fits a six-ring, a seven-ring fits a seven-ring, and so on. Stacks of rings become towers. Towers become long threads. If you stir the pot, the threads will break apart. But each piece will start to grow again – from both ends. Soon, Otto’s pots were teeming with small threads of molecules.

However, in real evolution, species also change when they reproduce every once in a while. A mutation causes a child to be slightly different from its parents. So, Otto’s students started working with several different tails that might sometimes not fit together so well. When the molecules stack, mistakes happen. These errors may cause the thread to grow faster, or to stop growing, or to grow into complicated shapes, or to do something else yet. In fact, Otto doesn’t know, because this is what his students are finding out now. In any case, Otto’s pots are brewing. The question is: when can it be considered life? Otto thinks there is a gray area between “really alive” and “really dead.” But when it waves at us and says, “Hello,” you can be pretty sure it’s alive.

The latest press release: “The origin of abiotic species”

On January 4, 2016, a press release titled, The origins of abiotic species, was put out by the University of Groningen. The key part reads as follows:

Otto has been working on chemical evolution for several years now. ‘It started with a chance discovery’, he explains. ‘We found some small peptides that could arrange themselves into rings, which could then form stacks.’ Once a stack began to form, it would continue to grow and would then multiply by breaking into two smaller stacks. These would both grow and break again, and so on. The stacks also stimulated the formation of the rings from which they are composed. The stacks and rings are called ‘replicators‘, as they are able to make copies of themselves.

Jan Sadownik, a postdoc in the Otto group, discovered that if you offer the replicators two different types (A and B) of building blocks (‘food’) they will make copies of themselves. He observed the emergence of a set of replicator mutants that specialized in food A, but also incorporated some B. The rings mainly comprised the A building blocks, with just a few B’s.

Some days later Sadownik saw a second set of mutants emerge that specialized in food B, but also tolerated some A. This second set proved to be a descendant of the first set, which meant there was an ancestral relationship between the sets. This is very similar to how new species form from existing ones during biological evolution, except that this process of species formation does not involve full-fledged biological organisms, but occurs instead at the molecular level.

Molecular speciation

Looking at the molecular ‘speciation’ process in more detail allowed the researchers to identify specific mutants within the first set of replicators that were responsible for the generation of the second set. They had therefore established the mechanism by which replicator ‘species’ form with unprecedented molecular-level detail….

This shows how new ‘species’ can emerge through chemical evolution. Otto explains, ‘Of course, the term speciation should only be used when referring to sexually reproducing organisms, but our work shows much the same patterns.‘ The exciting part, says Otto, is that ‘we start with no replicators, but see first one type emerge and then after a while, another. That is certainly most significant!’

One physicist’s take on the new research

Physicist Rob Sheldon made a pithy observation regarding the University of Groningen’s latest press release and the new paper by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto: “If this paper were about anything but ‘peptides’, it would be called ‘crystallization’.”

Indeed. Crystals have been shown to exhibit many of the properties displayed by Professor Otto’s peptide structures. I would invite skeptical readers to have a look at a 2013 article titled, It’s almost alive! Scientists create a near-living crystal by Brandon Keim (Wired, January 31, 2013). Written in a tone of breathless anticipation, the article exudes the same kind of starry-eyed optimism as the University of Groningen press release, as it reports on how particles of a mineral called hematite (pictured above, image courtesy of Wikipedia) can be coaxed into forming “living crystals”:

Three billion years after inanimate chemistry first became animate life, a newly synthesized laboratory compound is behaving in uncannily lifelike ways.

The particles aren’t truly alive — but they’re not far off, either. Exposed to light and fed by chemicals, they form crystals that move, break apart and form again.

“There is a blurry frontier between active and alive,” said biophysicist Jérémie Palacci of New York University….

Palacci and fellow NYU physicist Paul Chaikin led a group of researchers in developing the particles, which are described Jan. 31 in Science as forming “living crystals” in the right chemical conditions….

Chaikin notes that life is difficult to define, but can be said to possess metabolism, mobility, and the ability to self-replicate. His crystals have the first two, but not the last.

As for what’s happening now in Palacci and Chaikin’s lab, a particle currently under development isn’t mobile, but it has a metabolism and is self-replicating.

We’re working on it,” Chaikin said.

The abstract of Palacci and Chaikin’s paper can be found here.

Now, to be fair, I should point out that the structures created by the University of Groningen team are capable of a kind of self-replication – that is, if you’re willing to call breaking in two “replication.” But that’s about the only thing they can do, that Palacci and Chaikin couldn’t – and in any case, they state towards the end of the article that they have now created a self-replicating particle which has a metabolism. So on the whole, I think Rob Sheldon’s remarks are pretty accurate. These peptide structures are no more alive than some crystals are.

The dogs that didn’t bark

Silver Blaze,” one of the most popular Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, is a tale about the mysterious kidnapping of a prize race horse on the eve of an important race, and the apparent murder of its trainer. At one point in the story, the Scotland Yard detective, Inspector Gregory, asks Holmes: “Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?” “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time,” answers Holmes. Inspector Gregory objects: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.” “That was the curious incident,” remarks Holmes.

This telling exchange inspired The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, a 2003 best-selling novel by Mark Haddon.

The reason why I bring this up is that although the January 4 press release, “The origins of abiotic life,” was featured in Phys.org and Science Daily, it seems to have attracted remarkably little comment. Professor Jerry Coyne hasn’t mentioned it over at his Website, Why Evolution Is True. Nor has Professor Larry Moran said anything about it on his Sandwalk blog. Professor P.Z. Myers hasn’t said a word about it on his Pharyngula blog, either. This is quite remarkable, considering that three whole days have elapsed since the University of Groningen’s press release.

Why this deafening silence from North America’s leading evolution advocates? The only reason I can think of is that they don’t think that the new paper by Professor Otto and his team has any real relevance to the origin of life on Earth. What does that tell you about the paper?

But it would be churlish of me to dismiss a paper simply because no-one else had bothered to comment on it. So without further ado, I’d like to enumerate seven reasons why I think the paper fails to shed light on the origin of life on Earth, and of new species.

Seven reasons why the new paper fails to shed light on the origin of life and of new species

1. The peptide structures were the product of intelligent design

The Methods section of the paper (by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto) describes how the peptide library was prepared: “Peptide building blocks 1 and 2 were synthesized by Cambridge Peptides Ltd from 3,5-bis(tritylthio)benzoic acid, which was prepared via a previously reported procedure…”. Building blocks 1 and 2 consisted of “an aromatic core functionalized with two thiol groups and a peptide chain”. The paper’s authors produced a dynamic combinatorial library from “building blocks that can react with each other through reversible covalent chemistry combine and recombine to give rise to a diverse set of products”.

The paper also states:

“Each building block is equipped with two thiol groups which, when oxidized to disulfides, form macrocyclic species of different ring sizes. The peptide sequence is designed to have alternating hydrophilic and hydrophobic residues to promote self-assembly into parallel β-sheets.”

(The following very brief explanation is intended for the benefit of readers who don’t have a strong background in chemistry. 3,5-Bis(tritylthio)benzoic acid looks like this and has the chemical formula C45H34O2S2. The term “aromatic” may be used to refer informally to any chemicals derived from the hexagonal, ring-shaped hydrocarbon, benzene, although it can also broadly refer to any flat, cyclic molecule that’s highly stable: for instance, the double-ringed bases in RNA and DNA are also described as aromatic. A thiol group is simply an -SH group, where S represents a sulfur atom and H represents a hydrogen atom. A disulfide refers to a functional group with the general structure R–S–S–R: the two sulfur atoms in the middle are bonded to one another, and the two R’s are groups of atoms containing carbon and/or hydrogen. A peptide is a sequence of amino acid molecules which are bonded together in a short chain. Finally, a molecule which is attracted to water is called hydrophilic, while one which is not attracted to water is called hydrophobic.)

An anonymous biochemist whom I contacted has forwarded his comments to me. The following is a brief summary of his remarks:

This is a very well-designed and skillfully performed piece of chemical engineering (based on some very nicely done research), in which peptide building blocks (as distinct from pure natural peptides) were made by a chemist, not via a natural process. Hopwever, its significance in relation to the origin of biological replication is highly questionable.

Additionally:

The description of the study shows how strong the design component was in these experiments. The carefully ordered formation of covalent bonds was guided by the designed structure of the building blocks, and the alternating hydrophobicity and hydrophilicity was designed to promote the formation of higher order structures.

I have to ask: since when does evidence of Intelligent Design count as evidence for unguided evolution?

2. The reactions would never occur under realistic conditions – and if they did, they’d rapidly come to a halt

The biochemist whom I contacted didn’t think that the conditions in the experiment were very realistic, either. He also pointed out that the reactions described in the paper would soon grind to a halt, under natural conditions. The following two paragraphs are intended to convey the gist of his comments.

This experiment is far removed from OOL [origin of life] conditions, where the reactions and structures would occur at random, and where a very large number of “undesirable” reactions would inevitably occur, drastically reducing the chances of obtaining the “correct” reactions under the assumed OOL conditions.

Under natural OOL conditions, a large number of unwanted reactions could (and probably would) occur, in a solution containing a multitude of different chemical components. Instead of obtaining a functioning system with life-like properties, the end result would be chaotic and unpredictable. Additionally, under natural conditions, the chemical reactions could lead to a dead end, and they would probably not be very useful for generating a replication system from nucleic acids. If this kind of self-organization were common in nature, then we could end up with a very large number of competing systems, which would rapidly deplete the chemical raw materials being used to build nucleic acids. In practice, however, hydrolysis and decomposition, as well as the formation of large amounts of “unwanted” chemical products, would seem to be the dominant trends.

Despite these criticisms, the biochemist whom I contacted wished to compliment the authors of the paper, on the quality of their scientific work. He added that it would indeed be possible for intelligent chemists to build systems that were capable of undergoing intelligently guided molecular evolution, as Otto et al. have done, and he expressed his opinion that they had actually generated a very interesting “evolutionary molecular system.”

3. The structures observed could not possibly have been precursors to the first living organisms on Earth

Another reason why the new paper by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto fails to shed light on the origin of life on Earth is that the structures which they created are totally unrelated to those found in living things today. Want proof? I would invite readers to have a look at the article, Diversification of self-replicating molecules in Nature Chemistry, and scroll down and click on Figure 1: Library synthesis and the mechanism of self-replication. Have a look at the ring-structures created by the team of researchers. You’ll notice the six-rings and seven-rings described in the Youtube video at the top of this post. That’s what Professor Otto’s team created.

And now have a look at the diagram below, which depicts three possible representations of the three-dimensional structure of the protein triose phosphate isomerase. Hideously complicated, isn’t it? That’s what life is like. I don’t see any nice little rings of six, seven or eight molecules each. Do you?

I have focused on proteins here, because they’re the next step up from polypeptides. A protein consists of one or more long chains of amino acid units (or residues, in chemical jargon). A protein contains at least one long polypeptide. Short polypeptides, containing less than 20-30 amino acid units (or residues), aren’t usually considered by biochemists to be proteins. Instead, they’re just called peptides, or oligopeptides.

Now my point is that if the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team don’t look anything like proteins (much less anyother biological molecule found in living things), then we can safely assume that their relevance to the origin of life on Earth is: nil, nada, nothing, zip, zilch. Zero.

4. There are good reasons to believe that life didn’t begin with a self-replicating molecule

In any case, there are solid scientific reasons for rejecting the idea that life on Earth began with a self-replicating molecule – in which case, the claim by Professor Otto and his team to have created such a molecule is neither here nor there.

The late Professor Robert Shapiro (1935-2011) explained what’s wrong with the replicator-first theory in an interview with Vlad Tarko of Softpedia (Life Did Not Appear with A Self-Replicating Molecule, May 17, 2006):

A scientist proposes an alternative theory to the “replicator” theories of the origin of life – the idea that a self-replicating molecule, such as RNA, has spontaneously appeared and then spread and diversified.

Robert Shapiro from New York University calls such a possibility a “stupendously improbable accident”, although chemists managed to create “prebiotic” syntheses in the lab – syntheses of various building blocks of life such as amino acids. Shapiro says that the use of modern apparatuses and purified reagents is very unlikely to mimic the actual conditions on early Earth.

He says that one of the problems of replicator theories is that a high diversity of molecules of all sorts seems to hamper and endanger the replicator. The mere complexity of the assumed original replicator makes it to be unstable. He argues that what probably happened was the exact opposite – chemical variety was probably beneficial and increased the probability of life. The issue is how this chemical diversity eventually turned into self-replicating chemicals – i.e. life…

The appearance of a molecule that can self-replicate was not the first step, because this requires the combination of diverse chemicals in a long sequence of reactions in a specific order.

Of course, Professor Robert Shapiro’s “metabolism first” theory of the origin of life on Earth faces its own problems, as Leslie Orgel pointed out in an article titled, The Implausibility of Metabolic Cycles on the Prebiotic Earth (PLoS Biology 6(1): e18. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0060018 – see here for a non-technical overview by microbiologist Rich Deem). But the point I wish to make is that the “replicator-first” theory espoused by Professor Otto and his team is a very fragile one. It cannot work without just the right sequence of reactions occurring in just the right order, in just the right environment (to ensure that no decomposition occurred, along the way) – in other words, a miracle.

5. The new structures are not alive, in any meaningful sense of the term

Former “Science” editor-in-chief Daniel Koshland Jr. attempted to define “life” in a widely-cited article titled, “Seven pillars of life” (Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295 no. 5563 pp. 2215-2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489). Koshland listed what he saw as the seven defining features of life:

(1) a program, i.e. “an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time” (Koshland, 2002, p. 2215);

(2) improvisation, or a way of changing its master program (achieved on Earth through mutation);

(3) compartmentalization (a surface membrane or skin, and for large organisms, a subdivision into cells, in order to preserve the ingredients required for chemical reactions at their required concentrations);

(4) energy (which on Earth comes from the Sun or the Earth’s internal heat), to keep living systems metabolizing;

(5) regeneration (this includes reproduction), to compensate for the wear and tear on a living system;

(6) behavioral adaptability to environmental hazards; and

(7) seclusion, or some way of preventing one set of chemical reactions from interfering with another, in a cell.

When we look at the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team, what do we find? Which conditions are satisfied?

First, the structures lack a master program. Second, lacking a master program, they also lack the ability to modify their master program. Third, the structures possess no internal compartments whatsoever. While they have access to a source of energy (heat), they don’t metabolize, so Koshland’s fourth condition isn’t satisfied, either. (That’s why Professor Otto’s reference to “food” in the press release is misleading.) However, the fifth and sixth conditions are met, in some fashion: the structures can replicate, and they adapt to changes in the availability of different kinds of building blocks. Finally, the structures possess no mechanism for preventing one set of chemical reactions from interfering with another.

Overall Score: 2 out of 7. That’s a pretty long way from what I’d call “life.”

Of course, if you’re intellectually lazy, and you want to define the term “life” to mean anything that can replicate, then don’t let me stop you. But by the same token, many other things would also qualify as alive. As Dr. Steve Wolfram points out in his book, A New Kind of Science (Wolfram Research, 2002, p. 824, it has been known since the 1950s that abstract computational systems possess this capacity as well. Computer viruses would also qualify as alive, on the definition proposed, and there are mechanical devices (such as the “RepRap” machine shown below) that can make copies of themselves, too. How many readers would want to call these devices “alive”?

6. The term “mutant” is an inappropriate way of describing the variants that arose

In their press release, Professor Otto and his team use the term “mutant” to refer to a replicating molecule which is slightly different from the original version, because it tends to specialize in different building blocks, when assembling itself. However, as we have seen from Daniel Koshland’s article, “The Seven Pillars of Life“, which I cited above, the word “mutation” properly refers to an organism’s ability to change its master program. Since the structures described in the University of Groningen press release don’t possess anything analogous to a master program, or a genetic code, it follows that they can’t properly be said to mutate.

7. The processes observed in the lab shed no light on speciation, whatsoever

Finally, the processes described in the press release by Professor Otto and his team have absolutely nothing to do with speciation in living things. How can I be so sure of that? There are two things that give the game away.

The first is a very damaging admission in the last paragraph of the press release:

The next step is to introduce death. This can be done by feeding the system a constant flow of building blocks, while draining the contents of the reaction vessel. Replicators can only survive in this system when their growth rate exceeds the removal rate. ‘We could then seed such a system with one set of replicator mutants, and then change the environment, for example by adding another solvent. This would change the fitness of the various replicator mutants and shift the population of mutants towards those that are best at replicating in the new environment.’ The result would be a form of natural selection that Darwin would recognize. ‘We’re not the only ones to be really excited about these experiments – the evolutionary biologist I’ve consulted is too.’

Stop right there. The structures created by Professor Otto and his team don’t die. Consequently, they don’t undergo natural selection. The term, “survival of the fittest,” simply doesn’t apply to them, because they don’t even possess the property of “fitness.”

Without natural selection, speciation which results from a population becoming reproductively isolated from a founder population as it enters and colonizes a new niche, would never get off the ground. Such a model assumes that the new population becomes “fitter,” in relation to its new environment, over the course of time – which means that natural selection has to occur. But as we’ve seen, Professor Otto and his team haven’t achieved natural selection yet. Their excitement is, to say the very least, premature.

The other give-away is that the press release makes no mention whatsoever of a genetic code. And without a genetic code, there can be no genes – and hence, no genetic drift. That rules out other mechanisms of speciation, which rely on the occurrence of genetic drift in a population, in order to achieve reproductive isolation.

No natural selection, no genetic drift: no speciation. Of course, there are also species which are created through hybridization, but that presupposes the existence of genes and sexual reproduction – neither of which are found in the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team.

I conclude that the January 4 press release by the University of Groningen on the research conducted by Professor Otto and his team has very little relevance for the origin of life on Earth via an unguided process, much less the origin of living species.

What do readers think?

Comments
His concept was all about the proper transmission, reception and storage of some sequence.
Sounds like the song, Do, Re Mi from Sound of Music. The children ask but what does it mean. And Maria answers you have to put in words for each note. Until then, is it a song? Maybe yes, but one without meaning.
But that doesn’t mean that information can be meaningless.
But according to Shannon, it doesn't have to have meaning. We are using the term in more than one way which is common on this site for a lot of concepts (e.g. evolution, life, science, evil). And we end us with not very much meaning or understanding. But back to the original issue. The RNA world is just random sequences with have no specific meaning or value. A few RNA sequences (replicase enzymes) help replicate the random sequences. So there is some purpose in these enzyme sequences but not necessarily in the strands being duplicated. There is just hope or better, a faith that this is how it happened. I am not trying to be contentious but trying to understand what people are claiming. My reading of those who propose anything of significance to the RNA world is that they are being disingenuous at best. They should admit they have nothing but wild speculation. It should not be presented as gospel or even likely in any scientific discussion.jerry
January 13, 2016
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Mung:
Let’s not call them cells then.
Too late as Nick Lane refers to them as such in his book.Virgil Cain
January 13, 2016
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Shannon didn't care about meaning because the equipment that transmits and receives it doesn't care. It is supposed to send what it is told to send. His concept was all about the proper transmission, reception and storage of some sequence. But that doesn't mean that information can be meaningless.Virgil Cain
January 13, 2016
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jerry, “meaningless information” is an oxymoron.
I may be wrong but any random string of letters, bases, amino acids, symbols etc. is information in the Shannon sense. So what is wrong? Is is that the term information is meaningless or that anything is information? Unless you already are familiar with it then it is no longer information. From the lecture on Information theory
In the same way, the idea of information is not about the value or significance of a message. Meaning, value, and significance are obviously important qualities, but they are not the keys to understanding what information is.
Shannon’s definition of information is as follows: “Information is the ability to distinguish reliably among possible alternatives.”
Meaning or purpose have no part in a discussion of this type of information. But obviously the normal conversation is about meaning or purpose when discussing information. This is just showing that bringing in Shannon only confuses a discussion. So the lecturer is going back and forth between various understandings of what information is and this is typical of many discussions of the topic.jerry
January 13, 2016
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VC: Eric, There is still a big leap from those mineral cells to a living cell. Let's not call them cells then.Mung
January 13, 2016
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jerry, "meaningless information" is an oxymoron.Mung
January 13, 2016
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Eric,
By “duplicate” I presume you mean new polymers will “form” as a result of the natural chemical reactions between smaller molecules in the solution? And will presumably continue to form until the small molecules are used up. Or are you suggesting that the existing polymer is doing something to “duplicate” itself?
I haven't had time to listen closely to every part of the lecture or look at the references but the more I do, the more it is intellectually dishonest. Which leads me to then question the other lectures. It could be that he has little insight into the OOL issue or that he must take whatever straw is out there. I am starting to understand the premise of the RNA world and it is really grasping at straws which is why anyone endorsing it is intellectually dishonest. From what I understand of the RNA world, they can concoct solutions of some RNA strands and add to that other RNA molecules that act like as a replicase enzyme for duplicating the RNA strands. The duplication will not work without the replicase enzyme so it begs the question where did this type of RNA polymer come from. They assume it just arose somehow. But even with this, the ability to replicate is limited. The enzyme would only replicate smaller strands of RNA. Then a few years ago they developed a strand by taking a variant of a previous enzyme that would replicate a slightly longer strand. The new molecule is 202 bases long but can replicate a RNA strand of 206 bases long. That is the RNA world they are touting. As I said grasping at straws. Also the use of the term information is bogus because it is so vague but apparently within much of Shannon's version of information theory. Any sequence is information whether it has meaning or not. So the duplication of a meaningless segment that has no value to anyone is replication of information and any error in the replication is new information. A lot of what the RNA world is about is about meaningless information. The lecturer touts clay crystals duplicating with these crystals splitting sometimes into imperfect forms of the original crystal and forcing other molecules attached to it to vary as they cling to the clay crystals. It seems that the clay crystal formation becomes a way of forming new molecules and that maybe some day one of these new molecules will have interesting properties. It seems to be searching for ways that complicated molecules could form and that some of these complicated molecules could be magic in the formation of life. Grasping at straws or grasping at clay. I have never paid much attention to the RNA world hypothesis so all of this is new to me and maybe not totally an accurate understanding.jerry
January 13, 2016
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Eric, There is still a big leap from those mineral cells to a living cell. ATP synthase is one huge obstacle that Lane feels is easy-peasy although he never gets down to explaining it. Without ATP synthase mineral cells are stuck as they need a portable energy source. I think it's interesting in that it goes to show that life depends on normal, everyday chemical reactions. But depending on them isn't the same as being reducible to them.Virgil Cain
January 13, 2016
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virgil @37: Thanks for the additional information. Interesting. What is your take on it? Where do you think it gets us on the path to OOL? Also, I'm not assuming you were suggesting such, but it doesn't look like we have anything that is "self-replicating" in his proposed scenario, correct?Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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Alicia: I looked at my UD dashboard just now, which I haven't worked on since late November and there is a post in the system labeled "Alicia Cartelli on Abiogenesis", but it is marked "Draft". I'm wondering if I didn't publish it before I went away for a couple of months. Have you never seen the post? If that is the case, I sincerely apologize for the lengthy delay. Let me know and I'll get it posted right away.Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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Who needs a membrane. Right Alicia?Mung
January 12, 2016
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Lanes states the source of energy needed to get started comes from the vents themselves. They produce acetyl thioesters. These are significant as they are in an ancient branch point in metabolism and still found in organisms today. When CO2 reacts with an acetyl thioester more complex organic molecules form. The reaction is spontaneous, releases energy and produces pyruvate, which is the entry point to the Krebs cycle. Now for the energy for the Krebs cycle acetyl phosphate is also formed from the reactions of acetyl thioesters and CO2. Acetyl phosphate is, you guessed it, a simpler form of ATP. The grand part in all of this is it can drive the Krebs in reverse and spit out the complex molecules that are normally required as an input.
Pulling all this together, alkaline hydrothermal vents continuously generate acetyl thioesters, providing both a starting point for forming more complex organic molecules and the energy needed to make them, packaged in a format essentially the same as that used by cells today. The mineral cells that riddle the chimneys provide at once the means of concentrating the products, favoring such reactions, and catalysts needed to speed up the process, without any requirement for complex proteins at this stage. And finally, the bubbling of hydrogen and other gases into the labyrinth of mineral cells means that all the raw materials are replenished continually and thoroughly mixed.pg 29 "Life Ascending"
Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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Alicia @34:
Not responding to me again EA?
Let's see, it has been a whole 7 hours and I am accused of ignoring you? Like you, I have limited time and use that time to respond to the issues and points that seem most interesting to me. You didn't say anything @21 beyond just repeating how important this "surviving" is, to which I have already responded in detail. You think this is a terribly important observation that is somehow highly meaningful for OOL. I think it is trivial and doesn't tell us anything meaningful about OOL. There we have it. I'll leave it to the reader to decide which of us has provided more detail and support for their position. ---- As for the abiogenesis post, I appreciate you writing up a short description for the OP and do apologize for not being involved in that as I had hoped to be. I trust you were able to get some feedback and input from others. My engagement with UD tends to be in fits and spurts as my work and other circumstances allow. You'll notice that I didn't just ignore your abiogenesis thread, I ignored UD entirely for several weeks. In just the past couple of days I've had a bit of time to re-engage. I haven't even checked your abiogenesis post in recent weeks, but I'll try to take a look at it to see where things left off. Unfortunately, it is exceedingly difficult to restart old threads, but maybe there is something else of value we can discuss there . . .Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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virgil @33: I haven't had the opportunity to read Lane's book, though it looks interesting. But start the Krebs Cycle -- really!? That is quite a claim, especially since getting something close to the Krebs Cycle is far beyond anything that anyone has ever demonstrated to be possible for inanimate molecules even under carefully controlled lab conditions. Would you be able to provide a brief summary of Lane's claim on this front? It is probably worthy of a head post for discussion. Or perhaps by "start" the Krebs Cycle he doesn't actually mean get the cycle going, but instead just that one or two of the reactions involved in the Krebs Cycle are also found under abiotic conditions? In that case it would be an interesting observation, but not really much help for OOL.Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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Not responding to me again EA? How come you never responded to my answer to your "abiogenesis challenge" a while back?Alicia Cartelli
January 12, 2016
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Eric Anderson- Have you read Nick Lane's "Life Ascending: Ten Greatest Inventions of Evolution"? The OoL is one of them and he gives the best account I have ever read or heard of. The rocks lining white smokers in the oceans seem to offer the right materials and disequilibrium to not only the create macromolecules but also start the Krebs cycle. The rocks have many tiny cell-size pores that can trap the materials and allow them to coalesce and become part of a system.Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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jerry @25:
Certain polymers will duplicate while others will not.
By "duplicate" I presume you mean new polymers will "form" as a result of the natural chemical reactions between smaller molecules in the solution? And will presumably continue to form until the small molecules are used up. Or are you suggesting that the existing polymer is doing something to "duplicate" itself?Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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Let's be very clear: To my knowledge, no-one has ever seen a self-replicating string of RNA that has any chance of functioning in the real world. Someone please let me know if they are aware of such a thing. (And BTW, the Joyce experiment is not an example.) Again, I fully agree with most commenters here that even if such a beast existed it wouldn't get us very far toward OOL. But I keep harping on this because for some reason people keep referring to these self-replicating strands of RNA as though they actually existed, instead of as the hypothetical beasts that they are.Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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jerry @24:
Because of what he has presented or what he has failed to present, it means there is no coherent theory for OOL because if there was it would have been part of the lecture. It is another case of the “dog barking in the night.” No bark, no dog that was upset or in this case no coherent idea or no clue as to how it happened.
Precisely. Furthermore, I suspect the "polymers that self replicate" he refers to, on closer inspection, will turn out to not be polymers that self replicate. Does he provide any references for the claim? OOl isn't his speciality, and isn't the main thrust of his lectures apparently. So what would someone in his position do? Well, just do a little research, adopt the party line from some other "expert" he ran across, and present that. That is why what he is presenting isn't any more or less than a summary of the same old vague assertions we see time and again from the promoters of the materialist creation story. Understandable approach, and one for which he can perhaps be forgiven, but not helpful if someone wants to understand OOL or the origin of information in biology.Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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RNA is "important" because of it's potential function as a carrier of information. Thus it would appear that purpose and meaning are fundamental to the concept of life and the abiogenesis myth is absurd when used by certain religious sects to dispute purpose and meaning in the universe.Mung
January 12, 2016
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Of course surviving is important. You can't have survival of the fittest without it! It's just Alicia playing games again. What is the fittest of the elements? Is it the most fit because it has survived the longest or because it is the most fecund?Mung
January 12, 2016
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Does anyone know the sequence specificity for replicating RNAs? The Joyce/ Lincoln self-sustained replication of RNAs" started with two designed RNAs and many smaller RNAs that just required one bond to be made in order to get the same sequence of the starting two. They were able to vary at some loci but never did they gain a new function. The only difference is some variants were able to replicate faster than the original. I doubt any sequence of RNAs will do the trick so there must be some sequence specificity required. If we could determine that we could at least determine the probability of it happening by chance.Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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Replicating RNA will never get you anything but that. You will have Spiegelman's monster in no time but nothing more complex than what you started with.Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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Rocks survive. What is so important about that? RNA is not alive and does not seek to be alive. It could care less- actually it doesn’t care at all. It is happy being RNA or just its parts. It isn’t striving to be anything else.
The issue is that the rocks are not replicating or if there were certain types of rocks that did replicate and survive while other rocks would not replicate but disappear. Certain polymers will duplicate while others will not. The environment in which the polymers exist affects whether one expands its presence while another disappears. That is the claim and it is not clear how prevalent this is or not.jerry
January 12, 2016
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Eric, I am still trying to digest what this lecturer is saying about OOL. It is one of two lectures on biology out of 24. He is a physicist with a speciality in quantum information theory so also knowledgeable on information theory. His emphasis during the lecture is on certain types of polymers that self replicate. It is confusing because it is not clear whether the RNA polymers he talks about which contain no functional information need another different RNA molecule that acts like an enzyme and facilitates replication of the RNA polymer ( these molecules are in the presence of nucleotides to build new RNA polymers.) After looking at the lecture a second time, it is more informative for what is not there than what he presents. He really has nothing but a suggestion that this process is just the start of a long lost sequence of steps that led to life. It is all speculation. He also uses the idea that RNA clings to clay and clay will expand in random way affecting the sequences of molecules that cling to the clay. All very iffy and I may not have described his presentation accurately. In no way does he admit that it cannot have happened by natural means but what he presents he says is the likely starting place. Because of what he has presented or what he has failed to present, it means there is no coherent theory for OOL because if there was it would have been part of the lecture. It is another case of the "dog barking in the night." No bark, no dog that was upset or in this case no coherent idea or no clue as to how it happened.jerry
January 12, 2016
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Alicia Cartelli:
Of course “surviving” is important.’
Rocks survive. What is so important about that? RNA is not alive and does not seek to be alive. It could care less- actually it doesn't care at all. It is happy being RNA or just its parts. It isn't striving to be anything else.Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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Producing life (symbolically controlled cell chemistry) out of non-life (abiogenesis) can only be possible via fine intelligent control.EugeneS
January 12, 2016
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How could you possibly know how much I have examined the issue, EA? And you are incorrect on pretty much everything. There is a relationship between stability and reactivity when talking about molecules. So finding that RNA is capable of both catalyzing reactions and holding information to be passed to daughter molecules, while also finding conditions that the molecule “survives” in is incredibly important and certainly does address some of the questions raised by abiogenesis. I guess “those who have examined the issue in far more detail than you,” didn’t include you, EA.Alicia Cartelli
January 12, 2016
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Jonas, you make some good points, and raise some good questions. Self-replication of molecules need not occur as we see it occur in organisms. Indeed, abiogensis posits that the first hypothetical self-replicating entities did not do so as it happens in organisms today. Though note Mung's excellent point and my response on the other thread here: https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/breaking-origin-of-life-still-a-mystery/#comment-594890 Yet the proposals of self-replication to date generally posit the molecules at the very least doing something -- performing some catalytic function, for example, that would not occur without that catalytic function of the replicator. It is worth contrasting how that compares to the formation of crystals, which essentially occurs as the result of a solute distilling or "falling out" of a solution. A crystal's "growth" isn't any more related to the growth of a living system than is rain falling out of the sky and creating a puddle. And a crystal breaking into fragments or splitting into a secondary crystal isn't "self-replicating" any more than a puddle spilling over the edges and forming two puddles can be said to be "self-replicating." There are all kinds of natural physical processes that involve solutes or accretion or physical breakage and so on. But none of these can be properly understood as self-replication in any meaningful sense that would be relevant to the origin of life. (And if we insist that they are examples of self-replication then we are playing a semantic game that just requires a redefinition of terms to get back to the real substantive issue at hand.)Eric Anderson
January 12, 2016
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Alicia, please consider the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions before you opine on OOL or before you throw stones at those who have examined the issue in far more detail than you. There are myriad conditions that are important to the abiogenesis creation story, including, yes, that the alleged self-replicating molecules can "survive" in the particular environment long enough to replicate. Big deal. Even if we grant a dozen of these necessary conditions abiogenesis still doesn't have any realistic chance of getting off the ground. Molecules being able to exist in an environment is "important" in the sense that it is one more in an exceedingly long list of necessary requirements for abiogenesis, yes. "Important" in the sense that it tells us much of anything about how abiogenesis could have occurred, no. So my comment and question is still fully on the table: Congratulations, you have rna molecules that can exist (read "survive" in the strained Darwinian-burdened terminology) in a particular environment. So what? It doesn't address any of the key problems with abiogenesis. Yet we have people apparently thinking that the ability of certain hypothetical molecules to exist in a particular environment is some big accomplishment, some big step toward the formation of first life on the Earth. It isn't. Instead, the responses we get to the serious questions are vague claims about some hypothetical self-replicating molecule, equally vague assertions about unspecified changes that would take place to such molecules, unsupported suggestions that self-replication would continue apace even with such changes, and silly references to natural selection stepping in to "select" the more "fit" molecules -- fitness being, of course, left wholly undefined and as vague as everything else in the story. Yet again, The believability of abiogenesis is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion.Eric Anderson
January 11, 2016
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