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The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
F/N: Random text generation, courtesy Wiki:
One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, "VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t" The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[24] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulates a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d...
If you needed a lesson on the limitations of blind search mechanisms relative to generating FSCO/I . . . ~ 19 - 24 letters is searching a space of about 10^50 at the upper end. That is 1 in 10^100 of the space we are using for a solar system search threshold, 500 bits or 3.27 *10^150. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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Joe Felsenstein responds to Mung:
Mung needs to explain why the LCCSI works to eliminate the kind of “chance hypothesis” that includes natural selection.
Strange, I thought it would be up to Joe F to show that natural selection A) actually does something and B) that something is related to the issue. As far as I can tell natural selection A) doesn't do anything and B) starts with the very thing that needs to be explained in the first place.Joe
April 1, 2013
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BA: Didn't someone win a Nobel Prize for Literature for exposing the Gulag, and go on to write a three-volume expose? Looks like they need to have done a forced walk through to force facing hard truths. Those who forget or refuse to learn the truth about the past are doomed to make the same basic mistakes. KFkairosfocus
April 1, 2013
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semi OT: Martyred in the USSR is a documentary about militant atheism in the former Soviet Union. It tells the personal, emotional and horrific story of what people went through simply because they chose to cling to their faith, even at the risk of death. It did not matter what religion you practiced, if you believed in God in the USSR you were persecuted, and persecuted brutally. From 1917 to 1990 people of faith were shot, executed, thrown in the gulag and left to die because the Soviet Government hated religion. What makes this story extremely important is that the new generation in Russia knows nothing about their past and will deny that the brutality ever happened. Martyred in the USSR - Militant Atheism in the former Soviet Union - interview about documentary (due for release in late 2013) http://frontpagemag.com/2013/jamie-glazov/martyred-in-the-ussr-militant-atheism-in-the-former-soviet-union/ video trailer: http://www.martyredintheussr.com/ Understanding Militant Atheism in the Soviet Union - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZJ_zsYUsXg The Soviet Union Story - documentary video http://www.documentarytube.com/the-soviet-storybornagain77
April 1, 2013
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And BTW OM- ID is accepted by the vast majority of people. And those who do not accept it cannot provide any evidence that supports any alternative.Joe
April 1, 2013
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LoL! OM thinks that a random number generator- something DESIGNED to provide random numbers = blind and undirected processes. OM, CONTEXT is important. If someone went into a cave and saw ASCII on the cave wall, would they think erosion didit? Or would they think some agency did it?Joe
April 1, 2013
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And yes OM, you are quite the character. Unfortunately, for you, that is all you have.Joe
April 1, 2013
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Earth to the other mouth- Mung is EXPOSING you as morons. He isn't that desperate to try to learn from you.Joe
April 1, 2013
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And Joe Felsenstein is a legend in his own mind- Earth to JoeF- your NCSE article doesn't even address CSI, never mind demonstrate that natural selection can produce it.Joe
April 1, 2013
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Lizzie sez:
If that is all ID is, then I am an ID proponent, I just profoundly disagree that the design-detection methods so far proposed for detecting design in the pattern of living things differentiates between the products of design and the products of natural selection.
Well natural selection doesn't do anything so obviously educated people can tell the difference between design and NS. Not only that NS could not have produced a living organism and how a living organism was produced in the first place tells us how it evolved- by design or by accident.Joe
April 1, 2013
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And I see that Lizzie is still too dense to understand why the origin of life directly impacts any subsequent evolution. Talk about a lost cause...Joe
April 1, 2013
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other mouth:
Well, I have some strings of ASCII characters I’d like you to meet. One is random, one is not. You’ve had a few months now and you’ve yet to tell me which is which. So on that basis, it seems that “nothing to do with design is ID.
Please show us any ASCII string arising via blind and undirected phyical processes, or stuff it, moron.Joe
April 1, 2013
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And clueless Lizzie is still hanging on to AVIDA even though it has been refuted: The effects of low-impact mutations in digital organisms Chase W. Nelson and John C. Sanford Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, 2011, 8:9 | doi:10.1186/1742-4682-8-9
Abstract: Background: Avida is a computer program that performs evolution experiments with digital organisms. Previous work has used the program to study the evolutionary origin of complex features, namely logic operations, but has consistently used extremely large mutational fitness effects. The present study uses Avida to better understand the role of low-impact mutations in evolution. Results: When mutational fitness effects were approximately 0.075 or less, no new logic operations evolved, and those that had previously evolved were lost. When fitness effects were approximately 0.2, only half of the operations evolved, reflecting a threshold for selection breakdown. In contrast, when Avida's default fitness effects were used, all operations routinely evolved to high frequencies and fitness increased by an average of 20 million in only 10,000 generations. Conclusions: Avidian organisms evolve new logic operations only when mutations producing them are assigned high-impact fitness effects. Furthermore, purifying selection cannot protect operations with low-impact benefits from mutational deterioration. These results suggest that selection breaks down for low-impact mutations below a certain fitness effect, the selection threshold. Experiments using biologically relevant parameter settings show the tendency for increasing genetic load to lead to loss of biological functionality. An understanding of such genetic deterioration is relevant to human disease, and may be applicable to the control of pathogens by use of lethal mutagenesis.
The sad part is this reference has been given to Lizzie numerous times and all she does is ignore it as if her willful ignorance is a refutation. And she actually thinks AVIDA refutes Behe- obnly a moron would think so as the real- world does NOT follow AVIDA- AVIDA does not model the real world. And Lizzie, AVIDA is NOT a GA and GAs solve problems BY DESIGN. That you refuse to realize that fact tells us that you are on an agenda of deception and nonsense.Joe
April 1, 2013
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LoL! @ Mung! the other mouth is actually saying that GAs are not teleological. Let's see- they are designed by designers for a purpose. And when they fulfill that purpose that means they did so by design, ie teleologically. There just isn't any getting around the FACT that GAs/ EAs are wholly teleogical and represent Intelligent Design Evolution, evolution by designJoe
April 1, 2013
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So I ventured back over there, now that it's DESIGNEDLY back up. What a bunch of morons. No wonder Elizabeth took such a long break.Mung
March 31, 2013
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Lizzie's comment @216 via Joe:
There is some poor reasoning that leads to this conclusions, but Irreducible Complexity turns out to be a) not a theoretical bar (because, arches) and b) not a bar anyway (turns out evolutionary processes can result in IC features (because, AVIDA).
Oh, boy, not the AVIDA bluff again. As it relates to irreducible complexity, AVIDA is an exercise in irrelevance. It assumes a relatively smooth, easy-to-traverse landscape. And wonder of wonders, it delivers on its underlying programming. But the very point in question is whether biology exists in a smooth, easy-to-traverse landscape, so assuming it certainly doesn't demonstrate it. Indeed, the authors acknowledge (in the very same paper that made all the headlines) that without their step-by-step reward system carefully leading all the simplistic 'creatures' up Mount Improbable, that it doesn't work. AVIDA most certainly is not a valid simulation of IC being created in the real world by natural processes. Perhaps, though, I've missed all the truly innovative functional, irreducibly-complex engineering systems AVIDA has designed in the real world over the past few years. After all, if it really works one would think it would have been put to good use -- sheesh, it's even free to use. Those of us who are involved in engineering would certainly prefer to just sit back and watch sports on TV while our "algorithms" come up with the next big innovation. What's that? Crickets . . .Eric Anderson
March 31, 2013
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F/N 2: for those ignorant of the relevant history at TSZ and elsewhere [observe O's reckless and mischievous mischaracterisation of my remarks at 66 above: "What KF is saying is that people like Alan Fox (AF) and the posters here are like the Nazi party, fully aware of the horror they are inflicting but who don’t particularly care, no doubt because of the lack of morals"], notice a forced tour by CIVILIANS from nearby towns [in this case, Buchenwald & Wiemar] who were deemed by the allies as complicit by passivity, on April 16, 1945, here. Note the applied categories for adult Germans c. 1945: V. Exonerated, or non-incriminated persons (German: Entlastete) IV. Followers, or Fellow Travelers (German: Mitläufer) III. Less incriminated (German: Minderbelastete) II. Activists, Militants, and Profiteers, or Incriminated Persons (German: Belastete) I. Major Offenders (German: Hauptschuldige). There is such a thing as degree of taint, when an evil is in progress. That, the martyrs of the White Rose movement plainly indicated in the cited pamphlets at 108. And if you doubt that an evil -- obviously, not as horrific as Nazism, but most definitely an evil -- is in progress today in the academy and the wider culture, I again invite you to reflect on this exhibit. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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F/N: the context of my stricture a little while ago is 66 above, and my onward remark at 108, in which I cited the White Rose tracts 2 and 4. After the war, Allied soldiers forced German townspeople to tour the death camps as they had just been discovered, so that they could never after pretend to ignorance of what had been going on next door to their town. Notice, it is those who by their passivity were enablers, who were made to tour the camps. DV, on the morrow, I will pause to do such a forced tour on what is going on at TSZ, and it is too late, I have the screen captures. Dr Liddle, with all due respect, you need to recognise and do something serious about what you have been enabling; indeed just a little below the post I intend to highlight, you were carrying on business as usual. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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Happy Resurrection Sunday to all.kairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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Joe: are they resorting to ad hominems again, here in defense of willfully false statements and misrepresentations? At this point, that would even more go to character. And, by hosting or participating in same without correction and action in defense of truth and fairness, that would include EL. KF PS: On skimming recent remarks at TSZ, I note that any reasonably informed person who is unaware of the dogmatic imposition of ideological evolutionary materialism among the intelligentsia of our civilisation is willfully blind; which last attitude was precisely the indictment of the general German populace by the White Rose movement in pamphlets 2 and 4 -- as I QUOTED (but of course, it was so much easier to set up a convenient strawman . . . ). And, any such distorter of the truth who imagines that "both the Nazis and KF think that homosexuals are immoral and/or deviants" should know that, post 1 Cor 6:9 - 11 -- "9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" [cf. my remarks here on recovery from life dominating, addictive, destructive, sinful practices and habits through 12-step methods . . . ] -- the notion that I or any serious Christian would be trying reimposition of OT covenantal laws as a part of some imagined right wing theocratic agenda, is more than sadly mistaken. Such a person also needs to ask himself why Hitler said the red in the Nazi party colour indicated its stance, and just what the National Socialist German Workers Party was about in terms of statist political messianism. (Hint: contrary to popular notions, Fascism is essentially an ideology of the LEFT, of state domination with a messianic political leader, cf. here. Political messianism -- of any species -- is essentially idolatrous and introduces a counterfeit messiah, so it is inherently and inescapably Anti-Christian, whether nominally left, right or centre. For those who need the truth, politically I am a convinced, principled small-d democrat and a practical monarchist as a citizen of the Commonwealth who views the Queen as a public relations asset to a tourist industry region. That is why it was great news for the Caribbean region when The Jamaica Regiment recently took its turn guarding our Queen at Buckingham Palace in London. News, world news, not advertising: priceless!) Instead, I hold the obvious -- obvious to anyone not taken in by the vicious, toxic and manipulative games and amorality now running rampant across our civilisation, and in line with the longstanding consensus of principled thinkers on morality across the world down the long ages: such behaviour (YOU raised this, not me; cf here for a corrective briefing . . . ) is a blatant perversion of the obvious creation order for sexuality, marriage and family; but there are those who will become so endarkened and benumbed that they will put darkness for light, bitter for sweet and evil for good, and will indulge or enable or approve or demand approval. Such need to wake up and lay off the conscience benumbing indoctrination, come to their senses and repent. Thankfully, as noted, 1 Cor 6:9 - 11 speaks true and a 12-step approach offers hope to those caught up in The Spin Zone that now dominates our civilisation. And yes, having witnessed Russia send a delegation of apology to Jamaica c. 1990 [ten years after the mini civil war], I am confident that there will come a point where the willful blindness to the evil of our day will meet with a "tour of shame." By then, it will be too late to undo the wrongs. And, it should be obvious that I am pointing out the censorship and expulsion tactics that are now so evident, at the hands of champions of the evo mat reigning orthodoxy; cf. case in point -- Gonzalez -- here. Calling me a Nazi by invidious association, for pointing out things like this -- notice the documentation of what was done to Gonzalez in the case in point -- Omagain, is shameful; and, allowing it to stand is shameful, Dr Little. Do you wonder why I see no reason to dive into such foetid waters?kairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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With all due respect, I much prefer my methodology of dealing with these deceiving, equivocating, quote-mining, misrepresenting, strawman creating, and bloviating "skeptics". Seriously, how many times are you going to just sit there and correct them only to have them attack you, just so they can justify ignoring what you post? Oh well, things to do. Happy Easter-Joe
March 31, 2013
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F/N: On the design inference and explanatory filter, cf. 101 here.kairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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F/N: Notice, again -- after I at least twice corrected her on the explanatory filter, per aspect form, with reference to its diagram, EL distorts:
Dembski’s case is that Darwinian evolution can’t account for the generation of complexity
Complexity merely means that we have a large config space, the issue Dembski has always raised -- echoing Wicken and Orgel etc -- is SPECIFIED complexity, coming from a narrow and special zone in the config space. Let me again clip from NFL, as is highlighted in the IOSE introsumm:
p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .” p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
At this stage, there is no excuse for EL's strawman misrepresentation. That is evidence of UN-reasonableness, and of speaking with willful disregard to truth that one knows or should know, hoping to profit from the misrepresentation. Let us take due note. KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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Joe: When we see dismissive critiques from those who often have a problem with truth and are committed to reject anything that may bring their comfortable ideological materialism under the microscope; such critiques tend to undermine their credibility. In any case, what we just showed is a conservative estimate of the search capacity of the 10^57 atoms of the solar system (and the wider cosmos). Such would be able -- as has also long been on the record in the exchanges in and around UD -- to do the equivalent of blindly picking one straw sized sample from a cubical haystack 1,000 LY on the side, about as thick as our galaxy. Sampling theory -- there is no need to go down rabbit trail debates on probabilities -- tells us that even if such were superposed on our galaxy, with all but certainty, we will pick straw. It is thus not hard to see why it is a sound conclusion that if we see the equivalent of 72 ASCII characters or 500 bits of FSCO/I, its most credible explanation is exactly what we commonly observe, design. That is what objectors are trying to brush aside or dismiss, and on track record will resort to almost any tactic to avoid. Here, they refuse to see that we have taken what Dembski did and have moved to a generous estimate of the number of possible search steps in a config space, to set a limit. As in 10^57 atoms each looking at a different config every 10^-14 s, as fast as ionic reactions take, much less organic ones. And that, for a reasonable estimate of the solar system's age. With the 1,000 bit observed cosmos limit, we have allowed searches every 10^-45 s, for the about 10^80 atoms involved. In that case the scope of search to the scope of configs is so far beyond one atom to the observed cosmos as is ridiculous. The message is clear. First, no reasonable doubt should exist as to why FSCO/I is a reliable index of design. Second, that what we are dealing with here is ideologically motivated UN-reasonable doubt, driven by ideological a prioris. That is sad, but we have to face what we are up against. Such unreasonableness will only yield when it sees that the game is up, and no-one is taking their talking points seriously anymore. As happened with the Marxists at the end of the 1980's. (Of course, the current neo-marxist revival, is driven by a generation that never learned the real reasons why marxism fell apart. Looks like we are going to have to learn the hard way all over again. At bitter cost.) KFkairosfocus
March 31, 2013
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Lizzie:
For instance, Dembski’s case is that Darwinian evolution can’t account for the generation of complexity.
Nope. Try again.
I understand Dembski’s argument pretty well-
All evidence to the contrary, of course.
Dembski acknowledges that to do his proposed calculation (of CSI) he’d have to know the probability distribution for an event under the evolutionary hypothesis.
Yet evos can't even provide any evidence of feasibility. And talk about a rookie mistake, Liizze sez:
Is he saying that novel variants of protein-coding sequences do not tend to produce similar proteins to their parent sequence?
Similar proteins performing similar or the same function is not going to get you new proteins performing new functions. Your position requires the latter, not the former.Joe
March 31, 2013
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Lizzie also sez:
But there is plenty of biological evidence, in lab, field, and from artificial selection.
And each case demonstrates the severe limitations of evolutionary processes
We can actually observe natural selection in real time, and do, and yes, it does “do this or that”, i.e. result in populations of individuals better fitted to their current environment.
Actually we don't know what we observe. That is because natural selection requires the variations to be chance/ happenstance and we don't seem to have any methodology for making such a determination.Joe
March 31, 2013
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the other mouth sez:
There are many critiques of Dembski’s work out there, most of them remain unanswered.
And not one presents any evidence that refutes him. Typical. That is why unguided evolution hasn't gone anywhere nor done anything. Then the other mouth uses an out-of-date quote from Dembski saying that he has dispensed with the EF. Earth to OM, Dembski took it back- the EF works just fine.Joe
March 31, 2013
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Lizzie "responds" to Eric:
There is some poor reasoning that leads to this conclusions, but Irreducible Complexity turns out to be a) not a theoretical bar (because, arches) and b) not a bar anyway (turns out evolutionary processes can result in IC features (because, AVIDA).
What total unsupportable nonsense. Unguided evolution does NOT have an answer for irreducible complexity and demonstrate that unguided evolution can result in IC. Lizzie is lying, again. Also fitness changes as the environment changes, and sometimes without the environment changing. And having more offspring, ie fitness, does not account for new body plans with new body parts. Lizzie is equivocating again. But anyway, with all of her bloviations it is very telling tat Lizzie cannot prodice any evidence to support her claims. All she has is Lizzie and that ain't going to win any arguments.Joe
March 31, 2013
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And Joe Felsenstein is prattling on how Granville left out much of biology. Earth to Joe F- YOU left out the EVIDENCE that unguided evolution can account for anything on your list- the first two are obviously pre-evo. You chumps and your bald assertions are beyond pathetic.Joe
March 30, 2013
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Well nice to see that Gregory is back over there spewing his brand of nonsensical strawmen. He and Lizzie are going at it. I don't know which one I feel sorry for....Joe
March 30, 2013
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