Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
They need to know that is blame- the- victim, enabling behaviour, and that their resort to it (again) is telling.kairosfocus
March 30, 2013
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TSZ, where Granville explaining himself = he is sulking and behaving like a child.Joe
March 30, 2013
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Thanks DK- Axe & Gauger may never hear of Liddle's "solid refutation" as it is doubtful they even heard of the TSZ- well perhaps if they read UD they would have heard of it. Fitness landscape is a contrived term and it doesn't address the derivation of new body plans and new body parts.Joe
March 30, 2013
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Eric @206: I second that nomination. Note that Liddle claimed to "know" that fitness landscapes are "paved" and "smoothed." How does she or anyone know that? I'd love to see her defend that claim. Unfortunately, she may not be aware of your solid refutation unless she drops by here. Why don't you go over to TSZ and call her bluff?Daniel King
March 30, 2013
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EA @ 206 Well said, sir!Optimus
March 29, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist: You wrote: "But I think that most of the people who comment here — I shall refrain from naming names, out of politeness — don’t make the necessary conceptual distinctions, show no interest in trying to do so, and basically just don’t care about being careful. And I think that’s a big part of what fuels the emotional core of the ID movement, as distinct from design “theory”." It's true that many ID proponents in the blogosphere don't make necessary conceptual distinctions. But I find that to be true of *all* camps -- atheistic Darwinists, theistic Darwinists (TEs), YECs, OECs, etc. I think this is a disease of partisanship as such, rather than any vice peculiar to ID. And one thing I've appreciated about your posts here is that your disagreements with certain ID positions seem to stem from thoughtfulness rather than partisanship. I don't think it's an accident that you have some philosophical training. Philosophical training is in short supply in these debates. The philosophical acuteness of Dawkins, Coyne, Myers, Eugenie Scott, Ken Miller, Francis Collins, Darrel Falk, Elizabeth Liddle, Ken Ham, etc. is pathetically low. The debate tends to be "science geeks" versus "Bible thumpers," with both sides lacking the intellectual discipline and the moderation that philosophy -- at its best, anyway -- can provide. By the way, you have been away, it seems, and so you may not have noticed my reply to you on another thread. See my #65 at: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/quote-of-the-day-8/Timaeus
March 29, 2013
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So the bottom line is that the rookie mistake made by those who argue against the efficacy of Darwinian evolution is arguing against the efficacy of Darwinian evolution.Chance Ratcliff
March 29, 2013
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OK, I finally made my way over to TSZ to see what these "rookie mistakes" were that Lizzie is making much of. I have not looked at all the posts, but I did read one about Axe and Gauger and here is the "mistake" they make: Without getting all technical, Axe and Gauger apparently feel that the fitness landscape is punctuated by peaks and valleys, with the result that organisms are likely to get stuck at a fitness peak. This is the egregious error Lizzie sees. She acknowledges that natural selection would be "doomed" under such a scenario. Now, this is not a new concept with Axe and Gauger. Indeed, many people have argued that the fitness landscape is as described above. Lizzie argues, however, that this is not so. The landscape, according to her is like this:
And given that we know (and both Axe and Gauger must know, being biologists) that similar phenotypes have similar genotypes, the landscape is not only full of climbing ramps, but is also “paved” – smoothed by the similarities between the phenotypic consequence of similar genotypes. (emphasis added)
Now this is certainly a thoroughly Darwinian view of things harking all the way back to Sir. Charles. Darwin felt that there was an unbroken continuum -- slight successive changes -- such that the fitness landscape would be essentially flat, like colors merging almost imperceptibly on a color chart. Unfortunately for Darwin, and unfortunately for Lizzie, that is not at all what we see in nature. We see breaks and leaps and uniqueness and discontinuity. We in fact see organisms occupying disparate points on the map. It is possible -- logically possible, that is -- that these points we currently see are indeed joined together by smoothed, paved, easy-to-access pathways. But that is an assumption, not an empirical fact, and those frequent oases in the organism's long and directionless path to that distant and dusty peak are more a mirage imagined by the desperate traveler than an actual point of refuge. Furthermore, there are good reasons to think that many points on the map -- from individual biochemical systems to whole organisms -- are in fact steep peaks that cannot be so easily traversed. Thus, at most what Lizzie could have objectively said would have been that some people disagree with the idea of a discontinuous landscape and argue for a more level landscape. Fine. But that certainly doesn't mean that Axe and Gauger have committed some rookie mistake in their description of the landscape. Further, Lizzie's assertion that the landscape is smooth, and therefore easily traversable by natural selection, is nothing more than that -- an assertion. It certainly has not been demonstrated. Moreover, not only is a smooth fitness landscape not an empirical fact, it is really just a restatement of the theory: namely, that slight, successive changes can lead to just about anything. It thus commits the error of assuming the very thing that needs to be demonstrated. And that is something we (rookies and all) quite accurately understand about evolutionary theory.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2013
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And more innuendos and still no evidence that we dismiss any work out of hand. Life as a "skeptic" is nice. BTW when did dna jock become a dick?Joe
March 29, 2013
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OK Orgel wasn't a Nobel prize winner. I could have said Monod or maybe even Sanger, who elucidated the structure of insulin (don't know how much he worked on the OoL)- but Urey should have been the obvious choice. It doesn't matter. There isn't anyone's work that is dismissed out-of-hand. petrushka is making it all up, as usual.Joe
March 29, 2013
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And not suprisingly petrushka, instead of posting the alleged evidence just poats another false accustion:
Joe couldn’t name a Nobel winning biochemist who works on OOL if his life depended on it.
Christian De Duve, Leslie Orgel- oops, that's two without even thinking about it.Joe
March 29, 2013
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A new false accusation/ bald assertion:
It is particularly difficult to remain civil when the work and opinions of Nobel Prize winning biochemists is dismissed out of hand by people who couldn’t pass a high school chemistry final exam. Not necessarily referring to Phinehas, but definitely referring to many posters at UD.
Unfortunately it doesn't say what work and opinions is dismissed. And taht is the rub- tey never reference their claims, they just spew them as if spewing makes it so.Joe
March 29, 2013
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In my experience, major ID proponents are often more insightful about evolutionary theory than evolutionists. The latter tend to gloss over problems, assume things that are questionable, make unwarranted logical leaps, rely on just-so stories, and so on. As a result, when problems are pointed out the evolutionist often naturally feels that evolution is being unfairly mischaracterized. Indeed, it is often the failure to get into the details that gives evolutionary theory its perception of explanatory power. That is why I coined my maxim, which is applicable to the larger evolutionary claims: The perception of evolution's explanatory power is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion. ----- That said, I'm curious to know if there is some substance to the complaint this time around. If I get time, I'll try to check out Lizzie's posts to see exactly which egregious errors were committed by Axe.Eric Anderson
March 29, 2013
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'I have just yet to read a pro-ID article, even by the academics in the field, that doesn’t make rookie errors about evolutionary science.' Evolutionary what?Axel
March 29, 2013
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Lizzie sez:
In the two posts I made recently, both concerning Douglas Axe, I point out that he rests his case on demonstrably false characterisations of the evolutionary hypothesis he is criticising.
Yes lizzie and it is very telling that you A) did NOT reference your claims taht show Axe is wrong and B) did not produce any evidence taht demonstrates Axe is wrong. IOW, Lizzie, you are full of it, as usual. Ya see Lizzie, your continued bald assertions make us cross!Joe
March 29, 2013
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So Lizzie et al., are griping and moaning about IDists' portrayal of natural selection, yet they still cannot provide any EVIDENCE tat refutes that portrayal. However if "blah, blah, blah" was evidence then we would be refuted :) So yeah, if being a skeptic means that you can also make up evidence, then Lizzie et al., are skeptics...Joe
March 29, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I have just yet to read a pro-ID article, even by the academics in the field, that doesn’t make rookie errors about evolutionary science.
Right. There's never been a pro-ID article that fails to mention evolutionary science. If there has ever been a pro-ID article that fails to mention evolutionary science you've not read it. All pro-ID articles you've ever read mention evolutionary science. Not only do all pro-ID articles you've ever read mention evolutionary science, all pro-ID articles you've ever read make rookie mistakes about evolutionary science. You're either ignorant, or a liar, or an ignorant liar. And that's why you no longer post here at UD.Mung
March 28, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I don’t watch talking-head videos as a rule and much prefer the written word so I can’t help you out about what Nelson said.
I suppose that's why you are appealing to Allan Miller, who famously stated:
Do I have to watch the video?
Troll.Mung
March 28, 2013
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Re your #173, Philip, I keep warning you guys, but you are political naifs. I've never seen anyone fashion such an exquisitely discursive and detailed filigree of sophistry as KN quite regularly (and apparently, quite effortlessly); at least without disappearing you know where, (if you are not a total stranger to the coarse, avian concept of a kind of self-referential Bermuda Triangle on the human anatomy, for the same empty vessel engaging in such vapid discursions, to vanish into without trace).Axel
March 28, 2013
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Sorry. I keep thinking I've addressed the person I'm responding to by name. Alan, Renard, Reynard, Reginald.Axel
March 28, 2013
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Re your post #77: 'Matter that didn’t always exist must first be created…' I don’t see how you can know that.' You can't not know it, if English is your first language and you have an IQ in double figures, as it is an a priori truth. Everything must have an origin. 'Turtles all the way down' has even been disproved philosophically. As regards your not believing in the Big Bang and Singularity, more and more evidence in proof is being being discovered and published - right up to this week. So, it's hardly regarded by physicists as a conjecture yet to be adopted as a reliable hypothesis.Axel
March 28, 2013
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In the circumstances, Joe, she would have deserved at least a merit star for trying - with a little note to that effect on her term report (since you will insist on giving remedial teaching to the unteachable...!)Axel
March 28, 2013
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Lizzie's new post ends with:
Honestly, it’s not that I’m “skeptical” of ID – I have just yet to read a pro-ID article, even by the academics in the field, that doesn’t make rookie errors about evolutionary science.
What evolutionary science? Whatever happens and whatever survives ain't science. And it is very noticeable that you still haven't presented any evidence to support your claims. Talk about rookie mistakes...Joe
March 28, 2013
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Allan Miller:
If DNA sequences were not in fact commonly descended, this would show up like a beacon in these analyses.
If DNA sequences were not in fact commonly designed, this would show up like a beacon in these analyses. BTW common descent doesn't say whether or not it was darwinian or design.
As you say, viral insertions provide a particularly interesting piece of the puzzle, and there is simply no way to deal with these on a ‘design’ paradigm, other than one involving deceit.
You cannot test the comon descent version for the alleged viral insertions. And for the most part it all amounts to "they look like viral insertion remnants to me".
As to complexity, there are two mechanistic considerations I might mention that are game-changers: endosymbiosis and sex.
And both magic as far as materialism is concerned. Again nothing is explained in terms of unguided evolution. Pathetic...Joe
March 28, 2013
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Robin:
Is there some reason that you can think of that a designer who could design DNA could not design water?
Umm, water is evidence for design. Read "The Privileged Planet".Joe
March 28, 2013
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Lizzie:
One is: find a criterion that reliably indicates a designer.
We have and have written about it
The second is: predict what you would see if a designer designed something
We have. OTOH no one has done the same for unguided evolution. If you think that I am lying or mistaken, then please do so on TSZ and we can have a look as to its validity. My bet is that you won't because then you would be making an actual claim that you would have to supprt.Joe
March 28, 2013
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other mouth:
We observe mutations. We note the fact that they appear to be random with respect to function.
Actually they are not all random wrt function and being random wrt function does not = blind and undirected.
Joe uses this as evidence that we don’t in fact know that was by intelligent design.
No, I don't. My point is you are just guessing and have no science to support anything you say. So here we have an evo, unable to support its position's claims, and forced to spew false accusations and bald assertions- just as predicted.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Some more stuff for petrushka to ignore- p:
My question for gpuccio and friends is, how does a designer know which neutral mutations to create and preserve so that they might, in combination with some future mutation, enable a new function?
Please tell us why a designer has to know such a thing and couldn't write a search program to care for contingenies?
Lensky’s answer, supported by observation, is that a population of bacteria can “test” every possible point mutation in a reasonable amount of time.
And as far as you know that was/ is by design. Just because we observe mutations occurring doesn't mean the blind watchmaker didit. So stop with your equivocation already- which you won't because you love to attack a strawman with your equivocations.Joe
March 28, 2013
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Dr. Torley, thank you for your 183. I'll take a look at the Feser pieces on quantifier shifts. That's been bugging me for a long time. Yesterday it struck me that quantifier shifts might be a weird kind of mistake -- Fregean logic is a predicate logic, and Aristotelian logic is a term logic. Could it be that quantifier shifts are just when happens when Aristotelian term logic is 'translated' into Fregean predicate logic? I like the contrast between the two kinds of infinite regresses; that's exceedingly helpful. And I fully agree that there can't be an infinite regress of explanations. But what halts the regress is brute facts (for else can do it?), and I don't see why brute facts about contingent beings are less intellectually satisfying than brute facts about necessary beings.Kantian Naturalist
March 28, 2013
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“I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.”
My question, has Elizabeth Liddle ever genuinely beseeched anyone in the the bowels of Christ ever during her entire life on this planet? Somehow I doubt it. And of not, then she's exactly what she appeared to be back when she posted here. A smarmy know-it-all whose opinions deserve exactly zero attention from anyone who takes the questions posed on this blog in any way, shape, or form seriously. Especially since they can be had elsewhere without the gagging reek. "It's irony!" wink-wink. "Oh, how terribly sophisticated of you," he replied as he reached for the barf bag.jstanley01
March 28, 2013
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