Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Sound of Taxonomy Exploding

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

“The phylogeny of the animals is currently incompletely resolved and has undergone major reorganisations over the past few years, mainly as a result of analyses of rRNA gene sequences”…
Kaboom!

Large-scale sequencing and the new animal phylogeny

Although comparisons of gene sequences have revolutionised our understanding of the animal phylogenetic tree, it has become clear that, to avoid errors in tree reconstruction, a large number of genes from many species must be considered: too few genes and stochastic errors predominate, too few taxa and systematic errors appear. We argue here that, to gather many sequences from many taxa, the best use of resources is to sequence a small number of expressed sequence tags (1000–5000 per species) from as many taxa as possible. This approach counters both sources of error, gives the best hope of a well-resolved phylogeny of the animals and will act as a central resource for a carefully targeted genome sequencing programme.

12/23/06 Update: Here’s another article that describes the problem in even more stark terms:

Bushes in the Tree of Life

Quotes of note (my emphasis and brackets):

Here we discuss how and why certain critical parts of the TOL [Tree of Life] may be difficult to resolve, regardless of the quantity of conventional data available. We do not mean this essay to be a comprehensive review of molecular systematics. Rather, we have focused on the emerging evidence from genome-scale studies on several branches of the TOL that sharply contrasts with viewpoints—such as that in the opening quotation [a quote by Dawkins that implies we’ll get the TOL correct eventually]—which imply that the assembly of all branches of the TOL will simply be a matter of data collection. We view this difficulty in obtaining full resolution of particular clades—when given substantial data—as both biologically informative and a pressing methodological challenge. The recurring discovery of persistently unresolved clades (bushes) should force a re-evaluation of several widely held assumptions of molecular systematics. Now, as the field is transformed from a data-limited to an analysis-limited discipline, it is an opportune time to do so.”

Three observations generally hold true across metazoan datasets that indicate the pervasive influence of homoplasy at these evolutionary depths. First, a large fraction of single genes produce phylogenies of poor quality. For example, Wolf and colleagues [9] omitted 35% of single genes from their data matrix, because those genes produced phylogenies at odds with conventional wisdom (Figure 2D). Second, in all studies, a large fraction of characters—genes, PICs or RGCs—disagree with the optimal phylogeny, indicating the existence of serious conflict in the DNA record. For example, the majority of PICs conflict with the optimal topology in the Dopazo and Dopazo study [10]. Third, the conflict among these and other studies in metazoan phylogenetics [11,12] is occurring at very “high” taxonomic levels—above or at the phylum level.

For instance, theory [34] and simulation analyses [8] predict that a small fraction of substitutions will be homoplastic by chance (about 2–5%, depending upon model assumptions and evolutionary distances). However, analysis of the elephant/sirenian/hyrax dataset and the coelacanth/lungfish/ tetrapod dataset indicates that the actual level of homoplasy is ~10% of amino acid substitutions in the first case (178 homoplastic/1,743 total substitutions) and ~15% in the second case (588 homoplastic/3,800 total substitutions), several times greater than expected [8,34]. Similar high levels of homoplasy exist in datasets from other bushy clades [35] (unpublished data) and hold irrespective of analytical methodology [8].

Although it may be heresy to say so, it could be argued that knowing that strikingly different groups form a clade and that the time spans between the branching of these groups must have been very short, makes the knowledge of the branching order among groups potentially a secondary concern.”

Comments
grendelkhan I’m blue-eyed, but my brother isn’t. If you looked only at the eye-color gene, you’d think that I’m far more closely related to some random Scandinavian than I am to my own brother. Actually that's not at all true. I just read an article on eye color and the difference between blue and brown is a few nucleotides on a single gene. If you were to compare that gene between blue-eyed you and your brown-eyed brother it would be a very close match including synonymous substitutions. If you compared it to the same gene in a distantly related human who is also blue-eyed you could expect to find a number of differences in synonymous substitutions. This is based on the neutral theory and is the basis of genetic clocks - the more distantly related the more synonymous substitutions. The fly in the ointment is that not all genes even in the same organism experience the same background rate of synonymous substitution and when you start comparing different species the rates become even more skewed. Thus every molecular clock requires "calibration" based upon some ostensibly more reliable method of dating. The calibrations can become extreme - orders of magnitude differences in background rates must be factored into the comparative equation in some cases. See here for more in depth discussion.DaveScot
December 23, 2006
December
12
Dec
23
23
2006
05:44 AM
5
05
44
AM
PDT
What is the problem, again, exactly? The fact that the tree of life may be shaped more like a rhododendron than an oak? If it is, it is. What does this have to do with design? Meanwhile, if this is a typical day, another 19 papers were published today using DNA sequences to piece togther more branches of thetree of life.Anthemis
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
04:38 PM
4
04
38
PM
PDT
grendelkhan,
This is why trying to build a phylogeny from a single gene, or even a small number of genes, is liable to give very odd results.
It is not that simple. Please read this review if you haven't. http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0040352 Pay attention to the conclusion that even large amounts of data will not resolve the problem.Jehu
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
02:58 PM
2
02
58
PM
PDT
Jehu-- about features contradicting: If you look at a single gene, you may get false positives. I'm blue-eyed, but my brother isn't. If you looked only at the eye-color gene, you'd think that I'm far more closely related to some random Scandinavian than I am to my own brother. (Which, I think you'd agree, is contrary to conventional wisdom.) I believe that chimps have the same ABO blood type system that humans do; if you compared a type O human to a type A human and a type O chimp, you'd think the type A human was the outlier. This is why trying to build a phylogeny from a single gene, or even a small number of genes, is liable to give very odd results.grendelkhan
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
bFast:
PaV, the consern I had the other time I posed was that the chatter was getting too black and white. Molecular clocks have their significant weaknesses, therefore the whole idea of a molecular clock holds no merit whatsoever.
I was questioning the seeming certitude with which the MCH has been used. I'm not convinced that it has much utility at all. Rokas and Carroll's paper makes the MCH sound like it doesn't have the fire-power needed to ferret out true divergences.
From my reading of the article, which I admit is more skimming than reading, they are not using molecular clocks, but specific mutations in common, to determine the phylogenic tree. If gorillas and humans both have a specific mutation, and chimps don’t, then humans and gorillas diverged after the chimp. If chimps and humans both have a specific mutation and gorillas don’t then gorillas diverged before the chimp/human split.
Here's what Wikipedia has to say about the "molecular clock": "The molecular clock (based on the molecular clock hypothesis (MCH)) is a technique in genetics, which researchers use to date when two species diverged. It deduces elapsed time from the number of minor differences between their DNA sequences. It is sometimes called a gene clock." And, more to the point: "The molecular clock technique is an important tool in molecular systematics, the use of molecular genetics information to determine the correct scientific classification of organisms. Knowledge of approximately-constant rate of molecular evolution in particular sets of lineages also facilitates establishing the dates of phylogenetic events not documented by fossils, such as the divergence of living taxa and the formation of the phylogenetic tree." The Rokas and Carroll write: "The discipline primarily responsible for assembling the TOL--molecular systematics--has produced many new insights......" The "noise" I was speaking of is, essentially, random drift. The authors seem to be saying that unless the stem part of the TOL (that is, the part of the tree that is between divergence events) is large relative to the branches, then "homoplasy" masks the genomic differences that would otherwise indicate divergence. They define "homoplasy" as: "Shared characteristics found in different branches of a phylogenetic tree not directly inherited from a common ancestor; these may arise by chance or selection." If you're talking about "chance", then that is "neutral/genetic drift".
“Studying “genes” isn’t going to help you figure out evolution” isn’t right eather. Studying genes is helping us figure out evolution. It is helping us to see that NDE is full of it.
Well I certainly agree that studying genes is knocking the feet out from underneath NDE. Nonetheless, I see the genes as simply being a "parts list" for the construction of some building. Every home in southern California where I live is made out of mostly the same materials; yet their sizes, shapes, designs, functionality, etc., are all different. So what drives divergence is not a "parts list" but "blueprints". IOW, to figure out evolution, it seems to me that we have to have some idea of the regulatory mechanisms behind organismal differentiation, and the study of "genes" is simply missing the point. That isn't to say, however, that individual studies aren't important since, as you point out, they might prove to be very useful once a more reasonable paradigm becomes visible and accepted. So I think we're in agreement on that point. Yet, I still think that ID is useful, even in the abstract. For example, why spend all this time and effort to use, more or less, molecular clock techniques to discover divergences if you believe that fundamental divergences are at a regulatory level rather than down at the "parts list" level? Think of all of the time, energy, money that has been flushed down the toilet trying to use "molecular systematics" to single out divergence events when, as the authors--almost sadly--attempt to point out: "Although it may be heresy to say so, it could be argued that knowing that strikingly different groups form a clade and that the time spans between the branching of these groups must have been very short, makes the knowledge of the branching order among groups potentially a secondary concern." Suffice it to say that IDists would never have gone on this wild-goose chase. Only those convinced that cosmic rays, intersecting with DNA over eons of ages, has brought about the fecundity of life we see would have gone (and did go) down that blind alley.PaV
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
” In the C programming language a single equals sign (=) is an assignment operator. A double equals sign (==) performs a comparison. Thus, in this code example TRUE will automatically be assigned to something_happened, the “if” statement will always evaluate as true, and “Darwin said it;” will always be the result.” But there is also else branch, for redundancy reasons. Isn't evolution wonderful?IDist
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
" In the C programming language a single equals sign (=) is an assignment operator. A double equals sign (==) performs a comparison. Thus, in this code example TRUE will automatically be assigned to something_happened, the “if” statement will always evaluate as true, and “Darwin said it;” will always be the result." Brilliant :D -- “It’s designed, thereby requiring a designer. Since this logic is flawed the code was not designed – it only appears so, and you do not exist.” I do exist, I am THE BLIND C CODER.IDist
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PDT
Oops. I should correct my next-to-last sentence: Therefore, something always happens, and Darwin always predicts it.GilDodgen
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
PaV, "Well, that is how the clocks begin, but what I was objecting to was the use of MC’s to precisely define divergence moments independent of the fossil record." PaV, the consern I had the other time I posed was that the chatter was getting too black and white. Molecular clocks have their significant weaknesses, therefore the whole idea of a molecular clock holds no merit whatsoever. I think it is well understood in scientific circles that during divergence molecular clocks go out of whack. The term used, I believe, is the "neutral theory". The "neutral theory" generally states that if a gene is not mutating for function, it will drift according to a clock. From my reading of the article, which I admit is more skimming than reading, they are not using molecular clocks, but specific mutations in common, to determine the phylogenic tree. If gorillas and humans both have a specific mutation, and chimps don't, then humans and gorillas diverged after the chimp. If chimps and humans both have a specific mutation and gorillas don't then gorillas diverged before the chimp/human split. If I understand correctly, this analysis of the genes show that the gorilla is a closer cousin than the chimp about 5% of the time.
As to ID developing a particular theory, I think this is completely unneccessary. Why? Because what this study points out is that studying “genes” isn’t going to help you figure out evolution.
Here you and I diverge drastically. Firstly, I generally hold respect for the scientific community's frustration with the "God did it" position. If ID is to be respected as science, it must be more than just a "NDE didn't happen" argument. It must present answers, that make sense out of the puzzles that we are seeing in gene studies. "Studying “genes” isn’t going to help you figure out evolution" isn't right eather. Studying genes is helping us figure out evolution. It is helping us to see that NDE is full of it. However, when we abandon the NDE paradyme, and find a new paradyme to shift into, these very gene studies will have helped us enormously in figuring out evolution. Evolution happened, I rather sure of that. How it happened, well, not by a filtering of random chance events, at least is sure doesn't seem so from where I sit.bFast
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PDT
if (something_happened = true) Darwin said it; else Darwin predicted it won’t;
In the C programming language a single equals sign (=) is an assignment operator. A double equals sign (==) performs a comparison. Thus, in this code example TRUE will automatically be assigned to something_happened, the "if" statement will always evaluate as true, and "Darwin said it;" will always be the result. Therefore, no matter what, if something happened, Darwin predicted it. That sounds about right to me.GilDodgen
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
08:07 AM
8
08
07
AM
PDT
bFast: "When I think like a software developer, I do not get this result from my software, though for most evolutionary evidence I do. We need a specific ID theory to explain this phenomenon rather than just declaring that it doesn’t fit the current theory. " On another post, you mentioned, in response to something I posted, that molecular clocks were, let us say, calibrated with reference to the fossil record. Well, that is how the clocks begin, but what I was objecting to was the use of MC's to precisely define divergence moments independent of the fossil record. The paper that Jehu linked to, in one of its introductory paragraphs states that biologists are trying to use the MC technique to move beyond what the fossil evidence presents (IOW, they're trying to figure out the Cambrian explosion). And the paper makes it clear that they can't do this. I bristle at their techniques---it's no more than a guess--because of the very thing the paper points out; that is, there's too much "noise" in the genome to be able to pick out particular events. But, of course, that should have been obvious from the get go. As to ID developing a particular theory, I think this is completely unneccessary. Why? Because what this study points out is that studying "genes" isn't going to help you figure out evolution. Divergence events--true divergence events--are the result of, if you will, a "reprogramming" of the DNA (I'm not using the word "genome" because it is an equivocal term: it can mean the sequences of nucleotide bases that code for "genes", or it can mean the entire DNA of an organism--just another example of the sloppiness of terminology that befuddles biology) of organism A, which results in a divergent organism B. This is fully consistent with--and actually predicted by--ID thinking. As to the question: Why is there this "noise"? Well, they're beginning to find out that what heretofore were thought to be blind, or silent, mutations may, in the end, actually turn out not to be mutations but rather part of a different code, one that is superimposed on the straightforward genetic code we're all familiar with. This, of course, suggests an even more highly refined overall genetic program, which in turn buttresses the design inference. So all the "homoplasy" plagueing the resolution of identifying branching events may really already be built in (the paper suggests that mathematical modeling points to a rate of "homoplasy" of 5%, yet they find it to be 15%. So the explanation may be that, lo and behold, we're not dealing with "random events").PaV
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:44 AM
6
06
44
AM
PDT
"It’s designed, thereby requiring a designer. Since this logic is flawed the code was not designed – it only appears so, and you do not exist." That's funny!!bFast
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
ahha! It was the less than symbol that was killing meshaner74
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
While(1 less_than 2){ Darwin = TRUE; }shaner74
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:07 AM
6
06
07
AM
PDT
hmm...didn't include my code, I'll try it again? While(1 shaner74
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:06 AM
6
06
06
AM
PDT
IDist, There’s a problem with your code: It’s designed, thereby requiring a designer. Since this logic is flawed the code was not designed – it only appears so, and you do not exist. True code only has the appearance of design, but has no purpose. If I can remember my C, I think this logic is more fitting, since Darwinism has at most 1 “logical” check: While(1 shaner74
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
Or, rather, the left-brackets after "Darwin said it" and "Darwin predicted it won't" should be right-brackets.jb
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:03 AM
6
06
03
AM
PDT
IDist: "My code has a syntax error by the way, Darwin predicted that too " Yea, you never closed any of your left brackets. (an example of IC? the code is useless without the closing right brackets)jb
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
My code has a syntax error by the way, Darwin predicted that too ;)IDist
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
03:26 AM
3
03
26
AM
PDT
Lurker if (something_happened = true) { Darwin said it; { else { Darwin predicted it won't; {IDist
December 22, 2006
December
12
Dec
22
22
2006
03:25 AM
3
03
25
AM
PDT
bFast, Well if we use the pattern of things designed by humans we see that they have a mix and match of features. Think about cars or computers for example. Each unique item has many parts in common with other items but then a few parts unique and in different combinations. Imagine what it would be like to attempt to organize a phylogenic tree of computers. Would things get bushy?Jehu
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
10:18 PM
10
10
18
PM
PDT
Jehu, this data is certainly contradictory to the NDE theory. I am still puzzling, however, as to how a designer would assemble the evidence found. When I think like a software developer, I do not get this result from my software, though for most evolutionary evidence I do. We need a specific ID theory to explain this phenomenon rather than just declaring that it doesn't fit the current theory.bFast
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
10:06 PM
10
10
06
PM
PDT
However, I strongly disagree with Rokas and Carroll in that if the tree cannot be resolved I would see that as a serious charge of error in the fundimental theory — it would cause one to question the simplicity of common descent.
It appears from the article I cited that how a tree is resolved depends upon which features you use. In other words features contradict. So it appears that what happens is they resolve the tree by choosing the most "probable" order of descent based on what pattern agrees with the most features. I do not find that intellectually honest. Even worse, it appears certain features are rejected if they do not line up with the "convnetional wisdom." Check this out
Many recent studies have reported support for many alternative conflicting phylogenies [5,6,9,10]. For example, Wolf and colleagues [9] analyzed 507 genes by maximum likelihood, finding support for Coelomata—a clade that joins phyla possessing a true coelom, such as arthropods and chordates, to the exclusion of phyla without one, such as nematodes (left-most tree in Figure 2D). In contrast, Dopazo and Dopazo [10] analyzed 610 genes also by maximum likelihood and, after exclusion of genes evolving at a faster rate in nematodes, found support for Ecdysozoa (rightmost tree in Figure 2D). Three observations generally hold true across metazoan datasets that indicate the pervasive influence of homoplasy at these evolutionary depths. First, a large fraction of single genes produce phylogenies of poor quality. For example, Wolf and colleagues omitted 35% of single genes from their data matrix, because those genes produced phylogenies at odds with conventional wisdom (Figure 2D) . Second, in all studies, a large fraction of characters—genes, PICs or RGCs—disagree with the optimal phylogeny, indicating the existence of serious conflict in the DNA record. For example, the majority of PICs conflict with the optimal topology in the Dopazo and Dopazo study [10]. Third, the conflict among these and other studies in metazoan phylogenetics [11,12] is occurring at very “high” taxonomic levels—above or at the phylum level.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0040352Jehu
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
09:41 PM
9
09
41
PM
PDT
I'm not sure exactly what your point is here, DaveScot. This paper is one more in the growing literature on using molecular methods to reconstruct evolutionary trees (according to a Google Scholar search for molecular phylogeny, 7,130 papers in 2005 and 6,530 papers so far in 2006 – remind me, what is the running total for ID so far?). This particular one is a pretty technical discussion of the appropriate methods to use to get an accurate reconstruction of the deeper branches in the evolutionary tree of the animals. I missed the bit where it said taxonomy had exploded. While you're quoting, how about the opening paragraph of the paper itself: "Knowledge of phylogeny is important to biologists for several reasons; most directly, it tells us about the pattern of evolutionary relationships, revealing the historical pattern of speciation and divergence and enabling us to classify life according to a logical, informative, evolutionary scheme. Equally significant, however, is the central place of phylogeny in comparative biology: knowledge of the phylogeny of animals, for example, also tells us about the pattern of evolution of the heritable characteristics of those animals and, therefore, how the great diversity of animals evolved." Doesn't sound like they think evolutionary biology is about to crumble.Anthemis
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
09:07 PM
9
09
07
PM
PDT
Jehu, your quote has validated Lurker's prediction. However, I strongly disagree with Rokas and Carroll in that if the tree cannot be resolved I would see that as a serious charge of error in the fundimental theory -- it would cause one to question the simplicity of common descent. TRoutMac:
Would I be correct to say that the system for classifying organisms was built totally, or in large part, on a Darwinian presupposition and that a large part of it will have to be discarded once Darwinism is finally sent packing?
TRoutMac, it is my understanding that the basic taxonomical system preceeds Darwin. There is clearly something correct about it. However, there seems to be growing evidence that it is not as "perfect" as NDE would anticipate. The taxonomical tree will weather whatever storm ID throws. However, this phenomenon causes me to seriously consider what DNA is telling us. In truth, I am having a bit of a hard time understanding how this "bushing" could have happened in the genome. We've got to find a good explanation for it. The explanation must be better than Horizontal Gene Transfer, that's too cliche.bFast
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
08:37 PM
8
08
37
PM
PDT
TRoutMac "Would I be correct to say that the system for classifying organisms was built totally, or in large part, on a Darwinian presupposition and that a large part of it will have to be discarded nce Darwinism is finally sent packing?" The precursor (in a sense) to the phylogenetic tree were the groupings provided by Linnaean Taxonomy developed by Carolus Linnaeus in the mid 1700's well before the TOE. Linnaean Taxonomy was (as you mentioned) based on gross morphology. Unlike the phylogenetic tree, the taxonomic groups were not based on a presumption of relatedness, only on form. Linnaean taxonomy was latter adopted as the basis for the first "tree of life" maps of relatedness. Phylogenetics is literally the study of evolutionary relatedness. If the TOE were to be "sent packing", the phylogenetic tree would just be a glorified Linnaean taxonomy structure. No evolution, no phylogenetic tree, or at the very least you would need to change the name.mosca
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
06:57 PM
6
06
57
PM
PDT
I find this very interesting… As I read the various comments here I notice that most (if not all) of you commenting on these issues understand SO MUCH more about biology than I ever will. But recently as I've learned more and more about some of these issues, I've asked myself this basic question "Is it possible that our system for classifying and categorizing living organisms isn't even close to being right, particular at the lower end of the hierarchy?" And what I gather from this, is that to some extent I was right to ask that question. I guess it makes sense that prior to our understanding of DNA and genetics (which is still advancing) we were forced to make certain distinctions between species, genera, order and phyla based on physical characteristics, but now we have a relatively new criteria which just might render part of the taxonomic system obsolete. I guess I'm wondering whether I've read that correctly and also, just how screwed up could our taxonomic system be? Would I be correct to say that the system for classifying organisms was built totally, or in large part, on a Darwinian presupposition and that a large part of it will have to be discarded once Darwinism is finally sent packing? Very interesting… kind of puts us in our place, doesn't it? TRoutMac The Intelligent (Graphic) DesignerTRoutMac
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Other's posit that even an increase in data will not resolve the problem.
Can we realistically hope to resolve diversification events spanning a few or even tens of millions of years that occurred in deep time? It is widely accepted that nucleotide data are of limited use for resolving deep divergences because of mutational saturation and homoplasy. Until the recent expansion in available data, it has not been possible to fully explore what the limits of the protein record might be. Like others in the field, we also had expectations that scaling up dataset size would be sufficient to resolve interesting groups. The evidence presented here suggests that large amounts of conventional characters will not always suffice, even if analyzed by state-of-the-art methodology . Just as it would be futile to use radioisotopes with modest half lives to date ancient rocks, it appears unrealistic to expect conventional linear, homoplasy-sensitive sequences to reliably resolve series of events that transpired in a small fraction of deep time. Although we have known this from theory, we are now confronted with the actual pattern of molecular evolution.
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0040352Jehu
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
When the tree gets reshuffled, I suspect the NDE crowd will say evolution predicted that too. I wonder what creative stories will be told to reassure everyone that science predicted this via some study or computer model.Lurker
December 21, 2006
December
12
Dec
21
21
2006
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply