Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Strongest Arguments Against Design

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In any debate, it is good strategy to acknowledge your opponent’s strongest points up front, effectively taking them off the table. Critics of Intelligent Design have two strong arguments, discussed below, and virtually nothing else. Direct evidence that natural selection or any other unintelligent cause can actually do intelligent things, like design plants or animals, is nonexistent.

  1. The first argument is this: in every other field of science, methodological naturalism has been spectacularly successful, why should evolutionary biology be different? Evolutionary biologists understandably don’t want to be the only scientists at scientific meetings appealing to the workings of an unseen intelligent agent to explain phenomena in their field of study. When we have an approach that has worked so well on so many other problems, we need some powerful justification to switch to another paradigm to attack the problem of evolution, and it is understandable that there is so much resistance to this.But it has long been obvious to the layman that evolution is different, and requires a fundamentally different type of explanation. In recent years, a significant number of scientists have begun to recognize this also. In “A Second Look at the Second Law” I have attempted to express what is obvious to the layman in more scientific terms. A version of this argument written for a more general audience is here. I believe that this argument is the “powerful justification” needed to consider a new methodology in evolutionary biology, and shows why methodological naturalism hasn’t worked, and won’t work.
  2. The second argument is this: there are many things about evolution—the long periods involved, the evidence for common descent, the many evolutionary dead ends, examples of imperfect design—that simply give a strong impression of natural causes. This argument, used repeatedly by Charles Darwin himself in Origin of Species, is basically “a Creator wouldn’t do things this way.” Perhaps a more accurate way of stating the
    argument is, “I wouldn’t have done things this way if I were the Creator.” But, in fact, it does look a lot like the way we humans create things now, though testing and improvements over time. In fact, the similarities actually go beyond that, as brought out in my Mathematical Intelligencer article A Mathematician’s View of Evolution and, more briefly, in this video.Many people feel silly attributing the development of each species directly to God, yet understand that a completely unintelligent process could not possibly have produced the magnificent species we see today. Darwin wrote, in a letter to Sir John Herschel, “One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions and man without believing that all have been intelligently designed; yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this.” This paradox has left many looking for a compromise, such as
    “theistic evolution.”

    At the end of the “Epilogue” of my Discovery Institute Press book In the Beginning… I attempted an explanation for why a Creator might indeed “do things this way.” But of course it is only speculation, and although I often find that explanation reasonable, sometimes it does not even seem convincing to me. Perhaps a more obvious explanation is, our Creator creates through testing and improvements (sometimes trying modifications that don’t work out so well) for the same reason we create this way: it is probably the only way any intelligent agent could create things. If the only other intelligent agents we have experience with cannot create perfect designs by snapping their fingers, why would we assume our Creator could do this?

    I believe the evidence for design in the origin and development of life is scientific and overwhelming. Speculation as to what the designer might be like, or might have been thinking (or should have been thinking, as Darwin often argued ) is of course theology, not science. But I also have a purely scientific resolution of this paradox that I find quite satisfactory. It is simply: “evolution may leave an impression that it is an entirely natural process, but it isn’t.”

Comments
Doveton:
We don’t have to be able to recognize design in nature to evaluate someone else’s claim of design.
Right, we just have to have some knowledge of cause and effect relationships.
As for evaluating the claimed design itself, that’s easy – we merely compare the item that is claimed to be designed against the human approach to designing something similar and against other objects of the same type in nature, taking into account that a “more advanced” designer would have fewer reasons to create shortcuts, use inferior materials, have resource limitations, etc – particular if said “designer” is supposed a god.
I smell a strawman.
Hence the reason that most biologists criticize the claim that the human eye (and any eye actually) is designed.
That is because they don't know anything about designing.
Given the human engineering approach to such a item, the human eye is objectively a terrible design – particularly in light of the far superior eye “designs” out there in nature that would suit humans far better for the type of activities we engage in (the cuttlefish’s for instance).
Strawman. Ya see doveton the human vision system has to be embedded in something that does not have it, namely the gametes of humans. Not one human engineer could pull that off. IOW all you are doing is providing may ways of how not to argue against ID.Joe
December 14, 2011
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BTW nice of you to switch between cephalopod eyes and hawk eyes.
I'm sorry Joe, but what part of:
particularly in light of the far superior eye “designs” out there in nature
from 6.2 above limited me to referencing only cephalopod visual features in this discussion?Doveton
December 14, 2011
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As usual you don’t have a point. That some vision systems are better than ours does not mean they would work in a human.
Sorry Joe, you're making a category mistake here - one does not need the actual system to necessarily get the features. If that were the case, we'd all still be stuck listening to only live music. The very fact that we humans can enhance our vision with things like glasses, night vision goggles, underwater masks, telescopes, and binoculars, to say nothing of such enhancements as LASIK demonstrates the error in your thinking.
Can they respond to a 95mph fastball?
Absolutely.
Yet hawks cannot hit a fastball. You lose.
Evade the goalposts much? That's some red herring you've concocted. Hope it tastes good. LOL!
Nothing irrelevant about pointing out that other organisms have superior features and that such evidence is a problem for the concept of ID and not for evolutionary theory.
How is it a problem for ID?
I, among others on this thread, already noted this. See 6.2 above as an example.
Also evolutionary theory still cannot explain vision systems! That should be a problem for it.
There are a number of perfectly valid evolutionary explanations for the vision system out there Joe. I've even offered to provide you one myself when you provide valid answers to the questions put before you.
Begging the question- how do you they are natural as opposed to artificial?
Sorry Joe, but this does not help you.
So they don’t know.
I'm not taking your red herring bait, Joe. Until you can come up with specific evidence, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
One does not have to presume the null-hypothesis until there is evidence against it.
Actuall you need evidence FOR it and you don’t.
I find it interesting that you are the only one on this blog who makes this claim. It's also interesting to me that not a single leader in the ID movement agrees with you on this point. I wonder what evidence they see that you don't...
Thus far, the only question raised is on your side claiming there is evidence for design.
And it has been presented and obviously all you can do is chole on it. Heck your position can’t even muster a testable hypothesis.
Where exactly is the rigorous mathematical definition of CSI that Mathgrrl/Patrick and Elizabeth Liddle requested? That has yet to be posted after how many months of inquiries? For a concept such as design that you claim has valid evidence, it is notable that not only is there resistance by most of the commenters to even produce such a definition, but that few commenters here even agree on what that definition should be. Until you have agreement here on what ID is, there's no way to really evaluate any evidence for it. As to mustering a testable hypothesis, see above.
But further, you made a specific claim as to the assumptions of biomimetric engineers concerning the design of objects in nature in the face of claimed statements (that Casey Luskin noted in the article you linked to) to the contrary.
They- those biometric engineers- don’t have any evidence for their claims.
Which claims exactly are you referring to, Joe? Can you link to them please? The specific claims, btw, not the reference to them in Casey's article.
When you provide valid, scientific answers the questions poised to you, Joe, I’ll explain the visual system to you.
You can’t so stop lying.
Sorry Joe. Ball's in your court. I can't be a liar unless I fail to deliver on this deal. It's not my problem if you reject the deal.Doveton
December 14, 2011
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F/N: I add, that from the statistical perspective, the second law obtains from dominance of the space of possibilities by clusters of states near what is called equilibrium. The direction of spontaneous change is strongly towards such clusters, e.g. consider the situation with tiny marbles in a cylinder here and how it strongly tends towards a Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, and how we can also account for phenomena such as diffusion, viscosity, etc. But, it is strictly logically possible for the situation to go back to the initial condition, just the likelihood is so low that for systems of significant size -- 10^20 to 10^26 or so molecules is typical -- the likelihood of observing such on the gamut of a lab or the solar system or the observed cosmos is not appreciably different from zero. The second law does not artificially force an outcome, but is the summary of the strong tendency of systems where mass and energy at micro levels are relatively unconstrained, to move towards clusters of distributions that are statistically dominant.kairosfocus
December 14, 2011
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forget amino acids self-assembling, forget proteins self assembling. Take an actual cell and puncture the membrane, spilling all the contents into a lab created cellular fluid. My question was, what does your gut instinct tell you about how long it will take to get the cell to self assemble back into a cell, not with random proteins, but with all the correct pieces to the puzzle present.
What does this have to do with anything? No one suggests that such a scenario ever happened. Even rocks will not reassemble, but no one suggests that the shape of a typical rock is the result of a specific intervention. As for responding, I check for new posts to the forum several times a day, but obviously miss some.Petrushka
December 14, 2011
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Yet evolution does not expect a nested hierarchy as evidenced by the fact we do not observe one amongst prokaryotes.
What would common descent even mean in populations where "species" exchange genes with other "species"? As a partial answer, you should read the Koonin book, in which he discusses the variation and descent of genes. Since the book was promoted here and was free, I'm sure most UD readers downloaded it and read it.Petrushka
December 14, 2011
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BTW nice of you to switch between cephalopod eyes and hawk eyes. Sure sign of a loser... ThankJoe
December 14, 2011
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As usual Joe, you missed the point here. A transplant is not necessary to recognize some object has superior quality and capability to another object.
As usual you don't have a point. That some vision systems are better than ours does not mean they would work in a human. Can they respond to a 95mph fastball?
Absolutely.
Yet hawks cannot hit a fastball. You lose.
Nothing irrelevant about pointing out that other organisms have superior features and that such evidence is a problem for the concept of ID and not for evolutionary theory.
How is it a problem for ID? Also evolutionary theory still cannot explain vision systems! That should be a problem for it. Not given tne evidence and a complete lack of an explanation from your side.
Still beginning the question…
Nope, but all your position is is question begging. That must be your confusion. Begging the question- how do you they are natural as opposed to artificial?
Sorry Joe, but this does not help you.
So they don't know.
One does not have to presume the null-hypothesis until there is evidence against it.
Actuall you need evidence FOR it and you don't.
Thus far, the only question raised is on your side claiming there is evidence for design.
And it has been presented and obviously all you can do is chole on it. Heck your position can't even muster a testable hypothesis.
But further, you made a specific claim as to the assumptions of biomimetric engineers concerning the design of objects in nature in the face of claimed statements (that Casey Luskin noted in the article you linked to) to the contrary.
They- those biometric engineers- don't have any evidence for their claims.
When you provide valid, scientific answers the questions poised to you, Joe, I’ll explain the visual system to you.
You can't so stop lying.Joe
December 14, 2011
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That is why the transplant is necessary. You don’t have any idea.
As usual Joe, you missed the point here. A transplant is not necessary to recognize some object has superior quality and capability to another object. Humans do not need to have hawk eyes transplanted to us in order to assess that a hawk's visual acuity, sensory transmission speed, and visual system longevity would be superior for activities like piloting an aircraft.
Can they respond to a 95mph fastball?
Absolutely. Falcons are capable of avoiding not only trees at such speeds, but other birds (which are also moving in perpendicular directions compared to the hawk's orientation) at such speeds, so a fastball would be easy by comparison. But of course, that has to do with hawks' muscle reflex speed and body control as well, which is irrelevant to this discussion, once again demonstrating you've missed the point. If you're curious, have a peek: http://www.springerlink.com/content/x4585535436734m7/ http://texasnature.blogspot.com/2007/02/how-fast-do-birds-fly-by-ro-wauer-on.html
Take my response to your your irrelevant nonsense any way you want to.
Nothing irrelevant about pointing out that other organisms have superior features and that such evidence is a problem for the concept of ID and not for evolutionary theory.
Odd that you evaded my actual question…
Your question doesn’t have anything to do with what we are discussing.
Oh, indeed it does. You just don't seem to understand what is actually being discussed apparently.
Funny that those superior designs in nature were actually designed and that is why engineers recognize them as such- they recoginize the work of a superior designer.
Begging the question…
Not given tne evidence and a complete lack of an explanation from your side.
Still beginning the question...
But please feel free to explain how you know all biomimetric engineers only use natural object characteristics …
Begging the question- how do you they are natural as opposed to artificial?
Sorry Joe, but this does not help you. One does not have to presume the null-hypothesis until there is evidence against it. Thus far, the only question raised is on your side claiming there is evidence for design. Failing to provide evidence for this supposed design does not put the burden on others to disprove it any more than there is a burden to disprove the existence of invisible pink unicorns. But further, you made a specific claim as to the assumptions of biomimetric engineers concerning the design of objects in nature in the face of claimed statements (that Casey Luskin noted in the article you linked to) to the contrary. So I ask again - how do you know all biomimetric engineers only use natural object characteristics because they know the natural objects are designed?
Well, that makes sense given that I had no intention of explaining the vision system when I set out to respond to Florabama.
You can’t, so it isn’t that you had no intention…
When you provide valid, scientific answers the questions poised to you, Joe, I'll explain the visual system to you.Doveton
December 14, 2011
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GD: Pardon, but I think something is seriously wrong with how you are thinking about thermodynamics matters. The relevant context for thinking related to the point that design thinkers and theorists raise, is not the classical, macro-level variables [P, T, V etc], but the micro-scale, microstates view, wherein many microstates are compatible with given sets of macro-observable state variables. For brief instance, the point of the 2nd law is that the direction of spontaneous change is dominated by where the bulk of microstates lies, i.e. towards increasing disorder. (Cf my nanobots in vats thought exercise here to see what this is getting at. Rivers running downhill, or water evaporating from surfaces is simply misdirected, as order is not what is to be explained, but functional, complex, specific organisation.) I have discussed the matter in more details here on and here on, in my always linked -- as I have previously brought to your attention. Let me clip a bit from the first, highlighting on how the informational view of thermodynamics has over the past several years been winning respect in the wider community of thermodynamicists, and why (but notice that thinkers like Lewis, Brillouin, and Szilard -- or even Jaynes and Robertson -- are not to be exactly brushed away with a wave of the hand):
Further to this, we may average the information per symbol in the communication system thusly (giving in termns of -H to make the additive relationships clearer): - H = p1 log p1 + p2 log p2 + . . . + pn log pn or, H = - SUM [pi log pi] . . . Eqn 5 H, the average information per symbol transmitted [usually, measured as: bits/symbol], is often termed the Entropy; first, historically, because it resembles one of the expressions for entropy in statistical thermodynamics. As Connor notes: "it is often referred to as the entropy of the source." [p.81, emphasis added.] Also, while this is a somewhat controversial view in Physics, as is briefly discussed in Appendix 1below, there is in fact an informational interpretation of thermodynamics that shows that informational and thermodynamic entropy can be linked conceptually as well as in mere mathematical form. Though somewhat controversial even in quite recent years, this is becoming more broadly accepted in physics and information theory, as Wikipedia now discusses [as at April 2011] in its article on Informational Entropy (aka Shannon Information, cf also here):
At an everyday practical level the links between information entropy and thermodynamic entropy are not close. Physicists and chemists are apt to be more interested in changes in entropy as a system spontaneously evolves away from its initial conditions, in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics, rather than an unchanging probability distribution. And, as the numerical smallness of Boltzmann's constant kB indicates, the changes in S / kB for even minute amounts of substances in chemical and physical processes represent amounts of entropy which are so large as to be right off the scale compared to anything seen in data compression or signal processing. But, at a multidisciplinary level, connections can be made between thermodynamic and informational entropy, although it took many years in the development of the theories of statistical mechanics and information theory to make the relationship fully apparent. In fact, in the view of Jaynes (1957), thermodynamics should be seen as an application of Shannon's information theory: the thermodynamic entropy is interpreted as being an estimate of the amount of further Shannon information needed to define the detailed microscopic state of the system, that remains uncommunicated by a description solely in terms of the macroscopic variables of classical thermodynamics. For example, adding heat to a system increases its thermodynamic entropy because it increases the number of possible microscopic states that it could be in, thus making any complete state description longer. (See article: maximum entropy thermodynamics.[Also,another article remarks: >>in the words of G. N. Lewis writing about chemical entropy in 1930, "Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more" . . . in the discrete case using base two logarithms, the reduced Gibbs entropy is equal to the minimum number of yes/no questions that need to be answered in order to fully specify the microstate, given that we know the macrostate.>>]) Maxwell's demon can (hypothetically) reduce the thermodynamic entropy of a system by using information about the states of individual molecules; but, as Landauer (from 1961) and co-workers have shown, to function the demon himself must increase thermodynamic entropy in the process, by at least the amount of Shannon information he proposes to first acquire and store; and so the total entropy does not decrease (which resolves the paradox).
Summarising Harry Robertson's Statistical Thermophysics (Prentice-Hall International, 1993) -- excerpting desperately and adding emphases and explanatory comments, we can see, perhaps, that this should not be so surprising after all. (In effect, since we do not possess detailed knowledge of the states of the vary large number of microscopic particles of thermal systems [typically ~ 10^20 to 10^26; a mole of substance containing ~ 6.023*10^23 particles; i.e. the Avogadro Number], we can only view them in terms of those gross averages we term thermodynamic variables [pressure, temperature, etc], and so we cannot take advantage of knowledge of such individual particle states that would give us a richer harvest of work, etc.) For, as he astutely observes on pp. vii - viii:
. . . the standard assertion that molecular chaos exists is nothing more than a poorly disguised admission of ignorance, or lack of detailed information about the dynamic state of a system . . . . If I am able to perceive order, I may be able to use it to extract work from the system, but if I am unaware of internal correlations, I cannot use them for macroscopic dynamical purposes. On this basis, I shall distinguish heat from work, and thermal energy from other forms
This too, was brought to your attention recently, but appears to have been missed. Notice the bridge from informational concepts to thermodynamics ones. Simply opening up a formerly isolated system to raw inflows of energy does not explain adequately system movement to states or clusters of states that are functional based on highly specific, rare and atypical groups of configs in the space of possible configs. Indeed, injection of raw energy strongly tends to add further possible microstates in the bulk, i.e to break down functional configs; a common enough observation. The issue to be explained, then is first the spontaneous arising of a self-replicating, digitally coded metabolic entity, the cell. Then, the creation of many complex cell based organisms on major body plans that have to be feasible from embryogenesis forward. And until there is a credible and serious explanation backed up by repeatable actual experiments -- computer sims will not do -- the evolutionary materialist narrative will properly belong to the world of origins myth, not science. never mind the current ideological dominance of such myth-makers and myth propagators in institutions of science. Dr Sewell and Dr Dembski have a very serious point. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 14, 2011
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Not exactly, but it has the same effect, just by a different path. If it were thermodynamically forbidden, there would be no path to that state. Maybe I should explain in a little more detail: Professor Sewell's argument is that by looking at two states, you can tell which came first (i.e. which turned into the other). But here's a counterexample: in state A, some water is desalinated ("fresh") and at high altitude; in state B, the water is at low altitude (sea level) and mixed with the salty ocean. In a system with equilibrium boundary conditions, A can turn into B, but not the reverse (*). In a system with nonequilibrium boundary conditions (like earth) either one can turn into the other, so you can't tell which came first. (* I need to add a caveat to the above: in a system with equilibrium boundary conditions, B could turn into A if there's an internal nonequilibrium source -- stored energy, or something like that. But in that case the non-eq source would run down, an if you take that into account, the principle still holds.)Gordon Davisson
December 13, 2011
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Petrushka, you failed to respond to my last questions so I am not hopeful you will have any meaningful comment here. My question was... forget amino acids self-assembling, forget proteins self assembling. Take an actual cell and puncture the membrane, spilling all the contents into a lab created cellular fluid. My question was, what does your gut instinct tell you about how long it will take to get the cell to self assemble back into a cell, not with random proteins, but with all the correct pieces to the puzzle present. My "common sense" says... "Humpty will never put itself back together again. Shock it, radiate it, fire some neutrino's at it. Heck, throw in a few Higgs Boson particles and shake it around. It's not going to become a cell again. Since all the high priests of materialism like Dawkins and Hawkins don't have an answer, what makes you think you do? Admit it, the origin of life is a DEEP mystery that is going to take alot smarter people than are alive today to solve. I'm guessing it will never be solved, because so called scientists have lost their minds. To borrow from Star Wars... your sad devotion to that ancient religion (materialism) defies logic. I think they call that "suspension of dis-belief". Your dna is crying out with the correct answer but your need to believe you control your own life is crushing that nawing instinct from inside your information code that tells you there is something more.Ultimately Real
December 13, 2011
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So evaporation and rainfall are a river running backwards.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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But it has long been obvious to the layman that evolution is different, and requires a fundamentally different type of explanation. In recent years, a significant number of scientists have begun to recognize this also. In “A Second Look at the Second Law” I have attempted to express what is obvious to the layman in more scientific terms. A version of this argument written for a more general audience is here. I believe that this argument is the “powerful justification” needed to consider a new methodology in evolutionary biology, and shows why methodological naturalism hasn’t worked, and won’t work.
I don't think either of these are very convincing from a scientific perspective; there are significant errors in the thermodynamics, and the parts that are correct are not relevant. I've pointed this out before (mainly here and here), but I'll summarize: - The part of your "Second Look" paper that is correct concerns diffusion (of heat and other things) through a solid. But since nobody has suggested that life originated solely via diffusion, it's a little hard to see how this is relevant. Some of the same principles apply more generally, but the analysis in the paper doesn't provide any way of knowing which principles generalize and/or what the general form is. - You say that "Since thermal entropy measures randomness (disorder) in the distribution of heat, its opposite (negative) can be referred to as 'thermal order' ...", but entropy is not the opposite of order in general. For example, I think most of us would agree that a human is more ordered than a typical bacterium, but humans have much higher absolute entropy than bacteria (mostly because we're bigger, and entropy is proportional to size). - You say that you can define entropies other than thermal entropy ("X-entropy", e.g. carbon-entropy), and claim that the second law applies independently to all of these ("Furthermore, Eq. (5) does not simply say that the X-entropy cannot decrease in a closed system; it also says that, in an open system, the X-entropy cannot decrease faster than it is exported through the boundary, because the boundary integral there represents the rate at which X-entropy is exported across the boundary."). In the first place, these entropies cannot always be defined, and in the second place when they are defined, the second law only applies collectively, not individually. I gave an example here of carbon-entropy decreasing at the "expense" of a larger increase in thermal entropy (and a temporary increase in thermal order). - You object to the idea that the second law could allow an entropy decrease at one location, compensated by an equal-or-larger increase somewhere else; but your paper shows exactly how this can happen (specifically, if the right side of equation 5 -- the entropy flux through the boundary of the system -- is negative). You describe this as entropy being exported (see quote above), but that's really just another way to describe compensation. (Note that compensation, properly understood, requires that the entropy decrease be causally coupled to the compensating increase. They cannot be independent events. This coupling requirement is sometimes left out of descriptions (and even applications) of the principle; however, this sloppiness does not invalidate the basic principle.) - You confuse improbable events with second-law violations: "But after we define a sufficiently low threshold, everyone seems to agree that ‘natural forces will rearrange atoms into digital computers’ is a macroscopically describable event that is still extremely improbable from the microscopic point of view, and thus forbidden by the second law—at least if this happens in a closed system." This is simply an error in logic. If something violates the second law, it is highly improbable. But the reverse is not true; there are plenty of things that are vanishingly improbable, but for reasons that have nothing to do with the second law. For example, the second law strongly favors hydrogen fusion at standard temperature and pressure, but a jar of hydrogen gas unde those conditions is amazingly unlikely to fuse into helium. - In your conclusion, "If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable", it's unclear if you're talking about improbability-due-to-the-second-law, or improbability-for-some-other-reason (see above). If the former, the net entropy flux out of Earth is pretty clearly sufficient to allow evolution to happen (see my flux calculation here). If it's improbability-for-some-other-reason, then what is that other reason and what does it have to do with thermodynamics? The second of your links, "Evolution is a Movie Running Backward", is not any better. It uses the thermodynamic principle that things always run toward equilibrium to argue that evolution makes no sense in the forward direction. However, this thermodynamic principle only applies to isolated systems and open systems with equilibrium boundary conditions. Since the earth is in thermal contact with both the sun's photosphere (at an absolute temperature of around 6,000 Kelvin) and deep space (near 3 Kelvin), it is clearly inapplicable to earth. The analogy to a river running backward is actually highly appropriate, since rivers effectively run both forward and backward: In the "forward" direction, fresh water runs downhill, and mixes with the salt water of the ocean. In the "backward" direction, the sun's heat evaporates water from the ocean (purifying and desalinating it), atmospheric circulation (again driven by the sun) carries it to high altitude and over land, where it falls as rain, and refills the rivers from above. The "forward" direction may make more intuitive sense (everyone knows that water runs downhill, right?), but both directions are allowed thermodynamically and both actually happen.Gordon Davisson
December 13, 2011
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Those other systems need all of that because of their environment. That doesn’t mean it would work for humans in ours.
Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t either.
That is why the transplant is necessary. You don't have any idea.
And given that these other organisms’ eyes do, in fact, work in our environment in the lab, I’d say there’s strong evidence against your assumption.
Can they respond to a 95mph fastball?
> Do you need to transplant Blu-Ray technology into an 8-track player before you find the capability of the former to be superior to the latter?
You couldn’t transplant blu-ray technology into an 8-track player. You couldn’t replace the head with a laser- won’t work. You would have to redesign the whole thing.
Funny that. I’ll take that as a “no” then.
Take my response to your your irrelevant nonsense any way you want to.
Odd that you evaded my actual question…
Your question doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing. Funny that those superior designs in nature were actually designed and that is why engineers recognize them as such- they recoginize the work of a superior designer.
Begging the question…
Not given tne evidence and a complete lack of an explanation from your side.
But please feel free to explain how you know all biomimetric engineers only use natural object characteristics ...
Begging the question- how do you they are natural as opposed to artificial?
Well, that makes sense given that I had no intention of explaining the vision system when I set out to respond to Florabama.
You can't, so it isn't that you had no intention...Joe
December 13, 2011
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What is your evidence that other vision systems would be better suited for humans?
You mean aside from other systems detecting greater ranges of electromagnetic light, pulling in more light allowing for detailed vision at lower light levels, degrading far less often and far less frequently under greater stress conditions, having greater lens flexibility and thus greater detail clarity at a broader range of distances as well as the ability to focus both in and out of water, having polarization and the ability to adjust for light levels, and requiring fewer muscles to operate thus incurring less strain?
Those other systems need all of that because of their environment. That doesn’t mean it would work for humans in ours.
Doesn't mean they wouldn't either. And given that these other organisms' eyes do, in fact, work in our environment in the lab, I'd say there's strong evidence against your assumption.
Has someone actually tried the transplant?
Why? Do you need to transplant Blu-Ray technology into an 8-track player before you find the capability of the former to be superior to the latter?
You couldn’t transplant blu-ray technology into an 8-track player. You couldn’t replace the head with a laser- won’t work. You would have to redesign the whole thing.
Funny that. I'll take that as a "no" then.
If you have a blu-ray player and 8-track tapes, you get nothing. If you have an 8-track player and blu-rays disks, you get nothing.
Odd that you evaded my actual question...
Funny how those human designers recognize those characteristics in nature that are superior not only to our own designs, but also other similar objects objects in nature, even without accepting that natural objects are “designed”.
Funny that those superior designs in nature were actually designed and that is why engineers recognize them as such- they recoginize the work of a superior designer.
Begging the question... But please feel free to explain how you know all biomimetric engineers only use natural object characteristics because they know the natural objects are designed, particular given that Bharat Bhushan, among others, actually notes otherwise.
Your position sure as heck can’t explain the vision system.
Well, that makes sense given that I had no intention of explaining the vision system when I set out to respond to Florabama.Doveton
December 13, 2011
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I confess to confusing the adaptations of the hawk's eye with that of the squid's eye (the anatomy of the retina). Makes no difference to my argument, but it was a mistake.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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Doveton, You have nailed it! On the head!
If you’re asking me, I’d say that all other factors being equal, such would very much imply that something is wrong with our current understanding of evolution.
Nothing, nothing, nothing can ever be evidence against evolution, even if human eyes were completely rearranged from ape eyes. Evolution is a fact, regardless of the evidence. If the evidence doesn’t make sense or completely contradicts the theory, the theory isn’t falsified. It just means that something is wrong with our understanding of the theory.
Umm...hold the phone there Scott. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I specifically noted in what you responded to that I thought this would most definitely be evidence against evolution. What did you think I meant by, "evidence that is a problem for evolution" means?
Why even bother discussing it when you’ve stated outright that no contradiction of darwinian predictions would make a difference to you?
Errm...because I didn't state such?
Here we are wasting our time on actual evidence, and you’re telling us that even hypothetical evidence wouldn’t matter.
Mmm...might want to actually read what I wrote there again.
That’s what I call loyal.
Apparently.Doveton
December 13, 2011
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Yet evolution does not expect a nested hierarchy as evidenced by the fact we do not observe one amongst prokaryotes.Joe
December 13, 2011
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What is your evidence that other vision systems would be better suited for humans?
You mean aside from other systems detecting greater ranges of electromagnetic light, pulling in more light allowing for detailed vision at lower light levels, degrading far less often and far less frequently under greater stress conditions, having greater lens flexibility and thus greater detail clarity at a broader range of distances as well as the ability to focus both in and out of water, having polarization and the ability to adjust for light levels, and requiring fewer muscles to operate thus incurring less strain?
Those other systems need all of that because of their environment. That doesn't mean it would work for humans in ours. Has someone actually tried the transplant?
Why? Do you need to transplant Blu-Ray technology into an 8-track player before you find the capability of the former to be superior to the latter?
You couldn't transplant blu-ray technology into an 8-track player. You couldn't replace the head with a laser- won't work. You would have to redesign the whole thing. If you have a blu-ray player and 8-track tapes, you get nothing. If you have an 8-track player and blu-rays disks, you get nothing.
Funny how those human designers recognize those characteristics in nature that are superior not only to our own designs, but also other similar objects objects in nature, even without accepting that natural objects are “designed”.
Funny that those superior designs in nature were actually designed and that is why engineers recognize them as such- they recoginize the work of a superior designer. Your position sure as heck can't explain the vision system.Joe
December 13, 2011
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I disagree, and I published my disagreement and my specific reason for disagreeing before your snide remarks. The nested hierarchy is extremely important, and a radical departure would be evidence for design. It's the kind of evidence that shows up in legal arguments for copyright and patent infringement.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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I disagree. Horizontal gene transfer exists, but more often among microbes than in metazoans. Humans splice genes, sometimes across kingdoms. Finding a hawk’s eye in humans, but not in other apes, would not prove design, but it would certainly be supporting evidence.
Ok. I misunderstood your meaning. When you wrote, "Suppose the human eye were built with the nerve fibers exiting from behind the receptor cells instead of in front" I presumed you were thinking of the current mammalian eye configuration with that one modification, not an entire configuration change. If humans had an eye that was completely different from not only other primates, but other mammal as well, then yes that would be compelling evidence for design.Doveton
December 13, 2011
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Doveton, You have nailed it! On the head!
If you’re asking me, I’d say that all other factors being equal, such would very much imply that something is wrong with our current understanding of evolution.
Nothing, nothing, nothing can ever be evidence against evolution, even if human eyes were completely rearranged from ape eyes. Evolution is a fact, regardless of the evidence. If the evidence doesn't make sense or completely contradicts the theory, the theory isn't falsified. It just means that something is wrong with our understanding of the theory. Why even bother discussing it when you've stated outright that no contradiction of darwinian predictions would make a difference to you? Here we are wasting our time on actual evidence, and you're telling us that even hypothetical evidence wouldn't matter. That's what I call loyal.ScottAndrews2
December 13, 2011
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The one thing I think is important with this, that the 'evolutionary' scientists are not totally wrong. In that they did point out a line of similar kinds of life. From the fossils and biology, they see a connection. They think it happened naturally. But from God creating one life from other life you get the same results from the evidence, and without transitional animals. That is what you find. Even the history in preceding life , even though it may be a different type of animal. So 'evolutionary' scientists, may have even discovered the line of descent that God did creation in. For ID they are also correct in that they noticed that life only comes from ID and the ability to build it. They are also correct when they say there is no common descent for all life. Now with God telling us, that is how he created things, both views on the science, should look at this differently. It doesn't need to be adversarial. It's the answers that are important, not the the theories. Isn't it? http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 13, 2011
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I would not, however, immediately say such was evidence for intervention.
I disagree. Horizontal gene transfer exists, but more often among microbes than in metazoans. Humans splice genes, sometimes across kingdoms. Finding a hawk's eye in humans, but not in other apes, would not prove design, but it would certainly be supporting evidence.Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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We could flip the question around with a hypothetical. Suppose the human eye were built with the nerve fibers exiting from behind the receptor cells instead of in front, and if this design were not in the ape lineage, it would be strong evidence for intervention, as opposed to common descent. Yes or no?
If you're asking me, I'd say that all other factors being equal, such would very much imply that something is wrong with our current understanding of evolution. I would not, however, immediately say such was evidence for intervention. It seems to me that the contention that evidence that is a problem for evolution is automatically evidence that supports design is a very weak line of reasoning.Doveton
December 13, 2011
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That was Darwin's game - set up ridiculous standards for the falsification of his theory. If this stuff is designed, someone is operating on a level way over your head and mine. It's like me reading the C++ source code for Windows 7 and saying that what they did makes no sense. I don't program on that level, so how could I possibly know why they did anything? At least I know what the function of Windows 7 is. We can enumerate some of the functional components that make up an ape, but what is the function of an ape? Why have an ape vs. not having an ape? That we don't know is not evidence against design, as everything from the DNA up points to design. I don't know what motivates someone to build a birdhouse, but it doesn't really matter. First tell me what the ape is for, and then tell me how it should have been designed or how one design should differ from another, and why. This is an argument from ignorance. If we don't understand it then it must not make sense. It relies on the assumption of our own omnipotence, but other than that it makes perfect sense.ScottAndrews2
December 13, 2011
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What is your evidence that other vision systems would be better suited for humans?
You mean aside from other systems detecting greater ranges of electromagnetic light, pulling in more light allowing for detailed vision at lower light levels, degrading far less often and far less frequently under greater stress conditions, having greater lens flexibility and thus greater detail clarity at a broader range of distances as well as the ability to focus both in and out of water, having polarization and the ability to adjust for light levels, and requiring fewer muscles to operate thus incurring less strain? All of this without ever having to adjust either close focusing or long distance focusing with man-made lens/surgery? You're right...I can't imagine why anyone, from those who read books or computer screens to pilots, sightseers, or swimmers would ever find those things an advantage...
Has someone actually tried the transplant?
Why? Do you need to transplant Blu-Ray technology into an 8-track player before you find the capability of the former to be superior to the latter?
And BTW: “Biomimetics” Exposes Attacks on ID as Poorly Designed
Yes...thank you Joe! Casey does a very nice job of actually exposing the fallacy of Florabama's question. Funny how those human designers recognize those characteristics in nature that are superior not only to our own designs, but also other similar objects objects in nature, even without accepting that natural objects are "designed". You're link is very helpful in that respect. And while Casey is free to question beg that objects in nature are actually designed, that fact remains that no one arguing against such need buy into that claim to make the argument.Doveton
December 13, 2011
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how is it that, even with all the necessary biological information available, nobody can still generate a living cell in the lab from non living parts?
Are you suggesting that humans have assembled a cell? If not, your question makes no sense. I cannot assemble a microchip, and yet it can be done. To the best of my knowledge we do not have the technology to assemble a cell from scratch, although I believe simple strands of DNA have been synthesized. How is it when I suggest it is impossible to determine the utility of a random coding sequence, you assert it is just a matter of time and technology, but you seem to be asserting here that technology will never be able to create the vital spark? Is there a disconnect here?Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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That sounds very reasonable. Why would the Designer make up whole new designs for each creature He creates?
A more interesting question is why a designer wouldn't employ newer and better designs in newer creatures? Why stick with the limitation of descent with small modifications, when other lineages have some superior features? Human designers don't stick with descent. They steal horizontally. In fact that concept is used in court cases involving copyright and patent infringement.Petrushka
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