Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Strongest Arguments Against Design

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In any debate, it is good strategy to acknowledge your opponent’s strongest points up front, effectively taking them off the table. Critics of Intelligent Design have two strong arguments, discussed below, and virtually nothing else. Direct evidence that natural selection or any other unintelligent cause can actually do intelligent things, like design plants or animals, is nonexistent.

  1. The first argument is this: in every other field of science, methodological naturalism has been spectacularly successful, why should evolutionary biology be different? Evolutionary biologists understandably don’t want to be the only scientists at scientific meetings appealing to the workings of an unseen intelligent agent to explain phenomena in their field of study. When we have an approach that has worked so well on so many other problems, we need some powerful justification to switch to another paradigm to attack the problem of evolution, and it is understandable that there is so much resistance to this.But it has long been obvious to the layman that evolution is different, and requires a fundamentally different type of explanation. In recent years, a significant number of scientists have begun to recognize this also. In “A Second Look at the Second Law” I have attempted to express what is obvious to the layman in more scientific terms. A version of this argument written for a more general audience is here. I believe that this argument is the “powerful justification” needed to consider a new methodology in evolutionary biology, and shows why methodological naturalism hasn’t worked, and won’t work.
  2. The second argument is this: there are many things about evolution—the long periods involved, the evidence for common descent, the many evolutionary dead ends, examples of imperfect design—that simply give a strong impression of natural causes. This argument, used repeatedly by Charles Darwin himself in Origin of Species, is basically “a Creator wouldn’t do things this way.” Perhaps a more accurate way of stating the
    argument is, “I wouldn’t have done things this way if I were the Creator.” But, in fact, it does look a lot like the way we humans create things now, though testing and improvements over time. In fact, the similarities actually go beyond that, as brought out in my Mathematical Intelligencer article A Mathematician’s View of Evolution and, more briefly, in this video.Many people feel silly attributing the development of each species directly to God, yet understand that a completely unintelligent process could not possibly have produced the magnificent species we see today. Darwin wrote, in a letter to Sir John Herschel, “One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions and man without believing that all have been intelligently designed; yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this.” This paradox has left many looking for a compromise, such as
    “theistic evolution.”

    At the end of the “Epilogue” of my Discovery Institute Press book In the Beginning… I attempted an explanation for why a Creator might indeed “do things this way.” But of course it is only speculation, and although I often find that explanation reasonable, sometimes it does not even seem convincing to me. Perhaps a more obvious explanation is, our Creator creates through testing and improvements (sometimes trying modifications that don’t work out so well) for the same reason we create this way: it is probably the only way any intelligent agent could create things. If the only other intelligent agents we have experience with cannot create perfect designs by snapping their fingers, why would we assume our Creator could do this?

    I believe the evidence for design in the origin and development of life is scientific and overwhelming. Speculation as to what the designer might be like, or might have been thinking (or should have been thinking, as Darwin often argued ) is of course theology, not science. But I also have a purely scientific resolution of this paradox that I find quite satisfactory. It is simply: “evolution may leave an impression that it is an entirely natural process, but it isn’t.”

Comments
We could flip the question around with a hypothetical. Suppose the human eye were built with the nerve fibers exiting from behind the receptor cells instead of in front, and if this design were not in the ape lineage, it would be strong evidence for intervention, as opposed to common descent. Yes or no?Petrushka
December 13, 2011
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What is your evidence that other vision systems would be better suited for humans? Has someone actually tried the transplant? And BTW: "Biomimetics" Exposes Attacks on ID as Poorly DesignedJoe
December 13, 2011
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We don't have to be able to recognize design in nature to evaluate someone else's claim of design. As for evaluating the claimed design itself, that's easy - we merely compare the item that is claimed to be designed against the human approach to designing something similar and against other objects of the same type in nature, taking into account that a "more advanced" designer would have fewer reasons to create shortcuts, use inferior materials, have resource limitations, etc - particular if said "designer" is supposed a god. Hence the reason that most biologists criticize the claim that the human eye (and any eye actually) is designed. Given the human engineering approach to such a item, the human eye is objectively a terrible design - particularly in light of the far superior eye "designs" out there in nature that would suit humans far better for the type of activities we engage in (the cuttlefish's for instance).Doveton
December 13, 2011
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Gregory Of course anyone can believe what they want. It was the job of the scientists to nail these ideas, so that there is no controversy. Yet what do we find? People are just as controversial as ever. Why is that? People want to believe what they want. They carry baggage, that they bring with them to find solutions. That's probably the most difficult part to deal with. It is not easy to read your own motives. That of course goes for religions as well. That is why there are so many religions. Many people call this the information age . I call it the misinformation age. It is designed to confuse. Would the scientists have a method of detecting that design? They don't realize they are part of that, just the same as many religions. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 13, 2011
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Ultimately Real What you said is correct. As humans we can understand creation or design, because we were given that ability to do that also. So really there is no excuse. Even in a loaf of bread, shows design, but the 'evolutionary' scientists would spend thousands of years trying to prove how it could come about on its own. And I'm sure they would have mounds of theories on how that could happen. But could they ever prove it? No! That's why 'abiogenesis' and 'evolution' are only theories and not facts. They are missing the design, and building of life. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 13, 2011
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gpuccio Though if your talking about creation and science, they are the same thing. The creator used science to build life. I went to 'evolutionary' scientists to get the toughest criticism, I could get, to substantiate the claims I made. They could not , by use of the science, break what I have said about this. Though to them the theory is what is important. Not the science. Actually the 'evolutionary' scientists, do not test for creation or ID. Their method of doing science, does not look for that, and they wouldn't see it at all. Which of course is a huge flaw in their methods.As I have said before the design of their theory, can not detect design. So what we get is the "The Greatest Snow Job on Earth." A blizzard of bits of info. that buries the design in life. They never can get to the point of actual proof. The reason is the science does not support them.That's why 150 years, of theories. There is no such thing as common descent, in that there are many starts for life on earth. But there does seem to be some lines of descent, from these many starts. And no transitional life. Which is what you would see from creating life from existing life. ID is a bit of a cop out. In that, they say life was designed,but make no attempt to find out who the designer is. So just like the 'evolutionary' scientists, they want to distance themselves to any creator, unless it is Aliens. It is unpopular to support religions today, so that also is in keeping with the spirit of the world. Though because of an interest in who the creator is, we get answers to these question that could only be from the creator himself. That is why 'ID' and 'evolution' missed this now obvious, solution. Though religious people have also missed this for thousands of years. Well it wasn't important till now, because now we have scientists looking into these things. But the bible has always been ahead of the scientists. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 13, 2011
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Ultimately Real: Welcome in the very small group of neovitalists! (I am always looking for company...) :) I agree with you. Biological information is probably not the whole answer to life, although everyone seems to think that way. Your reasoning about the cell is absolutely correct, and should teach something to the likes of Venter and his minimal genome concept. Various OOL researchers, that are so ready to try impossible explanations for the rise of biological information, should also try to answer the following simple question: how is it that, even with all the necessary biological information available, nobody can still generate a living cell in the lab from non living parts? Even with all the intelligence and human resources and protected artificail environment that the lab can allow? So, how do they think it happened "in the wild"? But the reasoning about life does not in any way exclude the reasoning about biological information. Even if information alone is not enough to ensure life, there is no doubt that information is necessary. We know no life that can exist without a minimal genome, proteome, and cell architecture. So, the design argument is completely valid. The step from information to life remains a possible further issue, at least for us neovitalists! :)gpuccio
December 13, 2011
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Yes, perhaps you are right, Jon. Hard to tell sometimes where the tongues are kept while blogging. ; ) A supposed "purely scientific resolution" about 'evolution' based on "but it isn't" wouldn't go far towards gaining a 'scientific' publication for the blogger. I.e. wouldn't be trustworthy. There's still lots of 'design-like' language present in biology, of course. It would be an illusion to think 'design' is the only term than matters or that it necessarily deserves priority 'in biology' (by decree of 'outsiders') over related terms, though it did serve as a veritable 19th century flash-word. Can you think of any more relevant terms than 'design' for the 21st century, that might avoid 'tangled banks' between teleology and ateleology? Sometimes it takes a non-specialist in biology, like Dr. Sewell, you or myself, to write such things (recently published) as: “In effect, to see life as the product of intelligent design is to conceive of biology as divine technology.” (2011) Or, more to the 'extra-natural' or 'intelligent' guidance of 'evolution' topic: “Intelligent design theory, in its quest to achieve intellectual respectability [in biology] as an opponent to Neo-Darwinism, has somewhat mimicked its opponent by adopting a conception of ‘intelligent designer’ just as open as that of the Neo-Darwinist conception of ‘evolution’. I argue that neither strategy works well, either epistemologically or politically.” Or, to a not 'purely scientific resolution' on this theme: “I believe is necessary to return to theology as the source of theoretical guidance on the nature of the intelligent designer." That's from one of the constructor's of 'intelligent design theory,' in case some are confusing friend with foe.Gregory
December 13, 2011
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Stu7: That kind of argument is at best an argument for common descent, not an argument against design.gpuccio
December 13, 2011
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Chromosome 2 is only evidence for a fusion event, nothing more.Joe
December 13, 2011
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Tjguy, I'm not trying to tell you what the Creator "must be like", I'm just guessing, trying to explain the evidence, which is that God created, not entirely gradually, but building on previous designs. If you don't like this theory, get a copy of my book and read the Epilogue, you might like that theory a bit better. I'm not sure the idea of God "seeing what he had made" and proceeding to improve on it is incompatible with the Gensis 1 story of creation. And when I said "why would be assume our Creator could" create things differently than we, I was only referring to the fact that we have to actually get involved in the details, not snap our fingers and someone else takes care of the details; I of course recognize that the Creator's designs in living things are infinitely more clever than our best designs. (And if God only has to snap His fingers and perfect designs appear, why did He have to "rest from all the work that He had done" on the last "day"?) All of this is just speculation, the only thing I'm sure of is that the origin and evolution of life were not entirely the result of unintelligent processes; that much is obvious to anyone who hasn't been through intensive indoctrination.Granville Sewell
December 13, 2011
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Gregory - I suspect a tongue is in a cheek somewhere. Biology's thrived happily for 150 years on the "scientific" claim that the appearance of design is an illusion, with just as little evidence.Jon Garvey
December 13, 2011
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MrDunsapy: As I have already said, I don't believe that religious arguments should be used in a scientific discussion, so I will not use them. But I perfectly agree with you in the general argument that new design can, and probably has been, inputted in existing "hardware", that is in existing beings. I have stated here many times that, for purely scientific reasons, I accept common descent. The only way to accept common descent and ID is, as far as I can see, to hypothesize that evolution proceeds through new inputs of functional information, more or less gradual (that's a separate problem, and I really believe it was not gradual in most cases), in what already exists. That explains the continuity we observe, for example in the proteome, and also the discontinuities. The alternative is that each new implementation of design is made from scratch. That would not explain the many evidences in favour of common descent. A mere "common design" explanation can certainly explain some of them, but to explain all of them in the name of functionality constraints seems really stretched.gpuccio
December 13, 2011
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"I also have a purely scientific resolution of this paradox that I find quite satisfactory. It is simply: “evolution may leave an impression that it is an entirely natural process, but it isn’t.” - Granville Sewell Could you elaborate, please, on what makes the above statement an example of a 'purely scientific resolution' (said the mathematician to the biologist) rather than just an opinion that personally satisfies you? "But it isn't" is a classic anti-realist retort. What are you opposing to/substituting for 'entirely natural' in your 'resolution,' i.e. something non-natural or extra-natural, or...with a (positive) name unrelated (totally?) to 'natural,' like 'intelligence/Intelligence'?Gregory
December 13, 2011
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Life. Isn't that really the biggest mystery?? Everything that is alive on the planet got that life "spark" from something else that was alive. Where did that "spark" originate? How many millions or billions of years has it been passed along? The movie Frankenstein could only have been concocted without the knowledge of the inner workings of the cell. To think you could zap dead flesh with a lighting bolt and somehow start the life process again is preposterous in light of everything we know now about the cell. I recently watched a video of a single cell floating in "cellular fluid". The cell membrane was punctured, and the "plasma" (ha!) began to leak from inside the cell. The question for the materialists was, "how many millions or billions of years before the cell put itself together again. There wasn't only the correct amino acids or proteins, but the actual coded information now contained in the fluid. What does your gut say? How long or what would it take for that punctured cell to come back to life? My "instinct" says NEVER. If we deny the Designer, what cosmic Dr. Frankenstein could start that cell up again??Ultimately Real
December 12, 2011
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And now that we are finding a sort of "language" in our very DNA, a lot of scientists are getting uncomfortable. Information should not exist in cold, dead matter.APM
December 12, 2011
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Are you the ghost of Gould? Ha. Ha I don't think so. As far as I know I'm an original! I came up with these ideas a while back and have been testing it out. I also use these 3 facts 1 life comes from life 2 a human comes from humans 3 there is design in life. There is no evidence that goes against these 3 facts. Yet evolutionary scientists go against all 3 facts and with the Patterns of Creation( that's what I call God creating from other life), I think it explains a lot of discrepancies, between Evolution ID and creation. I explain it on this web site. I just started that site so go and comment. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 12, 2011
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To put it another way: Theoretically, God could have done it any way he chose to do it. But my God is not mere theory. He actually made a choice and acted upon it. What was his choice? Science claims it can show how the world came to be; but time and again, it's methods have proven deficient. The best it can give are educated guesses, most of which are contradicted by later evidence. And yet, we do have a history. A story, said to have been given from God to man. A book that is casually tossed aside as non-evidence by those who wish so desperately to uncover the past. But you've got to wonder. Might this be a terribly futile exercise, much like trying to reconstruct ancient Roman history from the bones of the caesars, while tossing aside the Latin and Greek languages as irrelevant.APM
December 12, 2011
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Are you the ghost of Gould?Mytheos
December 12, 2011
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This is not only reasonable, but the creator actually said he did it this way. That account was written thousands of years ago, and scientists today are discussing that very issue. The bible has always been ahead of the scientists. I think this also explains why scientists are seeing histories of previous kinds of animals. Also creation by breeding would also be an option. Just as man has created a Poodle. http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 12, 2011
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DNA is used for material life on earth. So the same process is used for all earthly life , and as a result, we see similarities. It would be efficient design , to create one from another. That could explain, what 'evolutionists' see, and also ID and uncommon descent. There is a line of descent but not just one line , there would be many. So that also explains uncommon descent. ID looks for design, so even the efficiency of this method, supports design.MrDunsapy
December 12, 2011
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Good answer. I agree. I don't believe it happened that way at all either. Why? God tells us that He didn't do it that way in His Word. So yes, it does take some hubris for us to decide what the Creator would or would not have done. It takes a good bit of hubris for us to reject what He has told us and come up with our own theories about how He did it as well. Taking God at His word? I think that is what He would expect of us. That is not hubris.tjguy
December 12, 2011
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That sounds very reasonable. Why would the Designer make up whole new designs for each creature He creates? This design seems to work quite well. It allows for diversity to emerge in each created kind and each created kind is based on the same genetic code stored in the DNA. Artists often have a common style that identifies their work. The genetic code in the DNA is the Creator's identifying style/mark. Just because all of life uses this same genetic code does not automatically mean that all life is related in an evolutionary sort of way.tjguy
December 12, 2011
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"Perhaps a more obvious explanation is, our Creator creates through testing and improvements (sometimes trying modifications that don’t work out so well) for the same reason we create this way: it is probably the only way any intelligent agent could create things. If the only other intelligent agents we have experience with cannot create perfect designs by snapping their fingers, why would we assume our Creator could do this?" This is the problem that creationists have with ID proponents. When Genesis is rejected, when the Fall as the means of introducing evil and design flaws into the world is rejected, then it reflects poorly on the Creator. And then you get all kinds of weird ideas about the Creator - like "this is the best the Creator could have done", or "why would we assume our Creator could create things differently than we do?" God's glory is impugned and His name is raked in the mud like this. I have no idea who this guy believes the Creator to be, but one thing is for certain, his idea of a Creator is a far cry from how God reveals Himself to us in His Word. His Creator is NOT the God of the Bible. I think he needs to stick to science rather than use his ideas about science to tell us what the Creator must be like. The word of the Creator Himself holds a bit more credibility for me than this guy's ideas.tjguy
December 12, 2011
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Ive thought that he may have used his own DNA and tweaked it for each kind of creature. That would also explain similar traits in life.Mytheos
December 12, 2011
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Have you ever thought, God, did things in ways that the 'evolutionists' and ID, or uncommon, scientists did not think of. For example, what if God actually built animals from preceding animals. In other words not evolving over time, but the use of one animals DNA,bones, muscles, blood etc., to create another type of animal. The new animal would contain a record of previous life. That also would explain, similar traits in life. What if he said, that is exactly what he did! Would that change how all scientists look at life? More at: http://patternsofcreation.weebly.com/MrDunsapy
December 12, 2011
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Good one F. No getting around the Design Inference.Mytheos
December 12, 2011
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#2 is part of the reason why I count myself a Creationist rather than a theistic evolutionist. My answer to "why would God do it that way" is "well, actually, I don't believe it happened that way at all." Still, you make a good point that it takes some hubris for us to decide what God would or would not do.APM
December 12, 2011
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How can Darwinists know whether a design is bad or good since according to them design can't be recognized in nature? If Darwinists can recognize bad design, isn't the flip side of that argument that it is legitimate to look for "Intelligent Design?" Seems to me that by setting themselves up as the arbiters of what is or isn't a flawed design, Darwinists have hoisted themselves on their own petard.Florabama
December 12, 2011
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Scootle: you have asnwered yourself. Those are examples of microevolution of the active site, implying only a couple of aminoacid substitution, or at worst 3 or 4. The micorevolution of active sites is discussed by Gauger and Axe in this paper: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2011.1 the point is, mictoevolution of the active site is in the range of a microevolutionary system and of NS, at least as long as the number of necessary substitutions is very low (I would say no more than 5-6, as I have already argued in another post). That does not mean that does transitions are really darwinian and not designed, but it does mean that we cannot make any design inference in those cases, and we can accept the neo darwinian explanation, at least until new data allow more precise computations. I would never use any of those few examples as an argument for design. But, obviously, they are not arguments for macroevolution at all. Ono's theory of a frameshift mutation for mylonase was a very strong argument for macroevolution, because a complex protein arising de novo after a frameshift from a different functional protein is really against all principles of ID. Luckily, that theory was completely wrong. If I were a darwinist, I would strictly avoid to mention nylonase at all. It is a wonderful example of consensus on a wrong, unsupported theory. (I have nothing against Ono, his theory could seem reasonable at the time. It's the adherence to that wrong theory for so many years by darwinists, without any real empirical support, and only because that theory was comfortable for their position, that is a very bad example of cognitive bias. Do you know how many times out antagonists have brought the frameshift theory of nylonase against ID, and against me personally, until a couple of years ago, maybe even more recently?). The true problem that darwinists cannot even begin to approach is not miocroevolution of the active sites, but macroevolution of basic protein domains. Ask them an explanation for that, if you want. Again, see Axe here: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1gpuccio
December 12, 2011
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