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The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
AJ, I stand by the accuracy of my summary of what has happened across what, several threads now. Your behaviour at this point is a clear instance of projective turnabout accusation that might confuse the naive or superficial onlooker but only succeeds in the end in showing that something is deeply wrong with your response to the 800+ million unborn children killed since the 1970's and mounting up now at a million more per week. I and others have shown why the path of reformation pioneered by Wilberforce is the sound one to take in response; at each stage you and others have tried to deflect, distort, dismiss. Not even pointing out that the slave trade had a holocaust-level death toll that makes the parallel, why didn't Wilberforce hire a privateer fleet, and how did the Royal Navy shift from opposing W as undermining recruitment to spending a century in anti slave trade patrols highly relevant got through to you. Further enabling behaviour for the worst holocaust in history on your part simply inadvertently underscores the way mass guilt of blood has warped consciences, minds, professions, institutions, governance and our civilisation at large. The bitter fruit of the so-called sexual revolution are here all too evident and manifest. Good day, KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2017
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CR, you have set up and knocked over a strawman caricature of what a self-evident truth is. Start with: distinct identity is a SET, that to object to requires you to use language and symbols that are based on said distinct identity. You just wrote a text in English, using ASCII code or the like, all of which critically relies on distinct identity, the start-point and pivot of the first principles of right reason. To toss in disputes over induction, you did more of the same: this illustrates how you are sawing away at the branch on which we all must sit. And of course, Moral Yardstick 1 appears nowhere in your remarks. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2017
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KF:
AJ, again, you refuse to pay attention tot he significance of the example of Wilberforce.
KF, your repeated and intentional misrepresentation of what I have said, rather than addressing the content of my comments, is there for all to see. I have addressed the Wilberforce issue on numerous occasions. He was a factor in the ending of institutionalize slavery. One of many. But the death blow of slavery was the result of the bloodiest period in US history.
You have then set up a strawman trarget to pummel.
Calling everything that you can't rationally argue against a strawman is a childish tactic akin to putting your hands over your ears and yelling "I CANT HEAR YOU". Why don't you make an attempt to actually answer my question. If a fetus has the same right to life as you and I, why don't you think that someone who plans to kill this person and carries through with that plan, should not be charged with first degree murder?
You have also refused, repeatedly, to acknowledge the force of other explanations from all sorts of directions. KF
This is an outright lie. I have acknowledged the explanations and explained their weaknesses.Armand Jacks
April 2, 2017
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And I've said that what you call self-evident truths are ideas that we currently have no good criticism of and play an important role in many of our current, best explanations. Are you saying that explanation is somehow incompatible? If so, why? For example, do what you call self-evident truths not play important, extremely hard to vary roles in a great many of our current, best explainations? Do we not lack good criticisms of them? In fact, the very process by which you would distinguish which "truths" are supposedly immune from criticism, in relation to all other candidates, would be to, well, try to criticize them. Right? Furthermore, are you suggesting that pointing out how an idea plays an important role in many of our current, best theories is not a criticism of the idea that they are mistaken? Even then, I've pointed out criticisms of the supposed use of a law of identity in regards to the new riddle of induction. IOW, it's unclear how the explanation of the growth of knowege by variation controlled by criticism, absent of a foundation, is not compatable with what you call self-evident truths or the fundamental role they play in our current, best explanations.critical rationalist
April 2, 2017
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CR, there we go again, unfortunately; you too often have acted as though evidence and argument in front of you or just a click away is not there. In 200 -- having given up that you will do the courtesy of clicking on links, I cited a specific moral SET as Yardstick truth 1. Where, I have long since discussed, echoing many others, that SET's [a] accurately describe the world (= are true), and [b] are seen as necessarily true by those who by experience of the world understand them, [c] that necessity of truth being on pain of immediate, patent absurdity on the attempted denial. (In this way SET's differ from analytic truths that may require arduous demonstration.] The first principles of right reason are tied to distinct identity and to try to deny them you have to imply acceptance of such distinct identity: undeniably true. That error exists is likewise, where to try to deny it instantly demonstrates its truth. In the moral sphere, MY1 challenges us to deny it without revealing ourselves to be monstrous nihilists and enablers. Indeed, so strong is this that in the years of discussing it, I found that the usual attempt to blunt its force was by deflection and distraction. I dare you to openly deny that it is manifestly and monstrously evil and wrong to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child for one's sickening pleasure, or that if we encountered such in action, we have a manifest duty to try to rescue or get help to try to stop the monster. The point being, here is a demonstration of a class of truths denied, suppressed, dismissed, and yet there it stands. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2017
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@KF
For example, you clearly have not addressed the case for moral self-evident truths as plumbline truths that help us frame a coherent and well-grounded moral structure.
I haven’t? Why don’t you start out by explaining how do you determine which truths are self-evident, and which are not? Please be specific.critical rationalist
April 2, 2017
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CR, Your remarks are again characterised, unfortunately, by failure to engage the actual issues on the table, which leads you to set up and knock over strawman targets. For example, you clearly have not addressed the case for moral self-evident truths as plumbline truths that help us frame a coherent and well-grounded moral structure. And because you do that, you end in the morass of subjectivism and/or unfettered relativism which boil down to might and/or manipulation make 'right' 'truth' etc. Amorality opening the door to nihilism, in short. Indeed, by implying that our consciences mislead us on our being under moral governance, you inject grand delusion into mindedness, which radically undermines all function of mind through responsible, rational freedom. I again draw your attention to MY1, a SET of moral character that opens up the world of discussion of moral government among humans, a yardstick test case that I have linked for you but which you have so far not seriously and cogently engaged:
it is self-evidently wrong, bad and evil to kidnap, torture, sexually violate and murder a young child (and to further focus, consider the case where this is for the sick pleasure of the monster in question -- as it was, real world . . . sadly, this is not a hypothetical example). Likewise, by corollary: if we come across such a case in progress, it is our duty to try to intervene to save the child from such a monster.
Such a child has no strength, skill, eloquence of capability to fight off or plead with such a monster. Are we left to I can get away with it? Think again on where this points, including the US DoI of 1776 in its context. As for picking on a term, "foundationalism," and pretending that by attacking it you can shift burden of proof to such and then pose on whatever you prefer, you greatly err. I again point you to the principle that there are self-evident truths that serve as plumblines, as a first note, starting with the triple first principles of right reason tied to there being distinct identity. Try to reason and communicate without relying implicitly on distinct identity, for instance even something as simple as the distinct identity of the elements in the strings of characters you must use to communicate here. Going up a notch, consider some claim we may label A. Why accept it? Because of B, some further claim, some observation etc, which sufficiently supports it on some criterion. But why accept B, in turn? C, D . . . Beyond this point it is not up to your rhetoric, but the force of the logic of chains of warrant involved that we face three options: [a] infinite regress of steps of warrant (impossible to traverse), [b] question-begging circularity at some level, [c] a finitely remote point of first plausibles, F for convenience, which is sustained on comparative difficulties across competing possibilities and embeds SET's as plumbline criteria of test. Such first plausibles are not further proved, they are where proving starts from. And yes, it is a faith-point. All men live by faith, the issue is in what, why, and how justifiably so: responsible, reasonable faith that both reckons with the possibility of error and accepts that some things are indeed self-evident and serve as yardsticks to help us address the rest of the system. So, for example relying on coherence and critique in turn rests on implicit belief in the issue of coherence as a criterion of truth in a system as no two truths x and y can successfully describe reality accurately if y is the denial of x. Coherence is a facet of the first principles of right reason rooted in distinct identity. And as for Neurath's Raft that is always under repair, standing on some part while adjusting another and then repeating the favour for where we once stood, the implications are obvious after a moment's thought. The raft must be dynamically and logically coherent [which relies on the first principles of right reason as a basis], and it rests on a sea (the implicit, slipped in by the back-door foundation point in such a scheme), and also the principles of flotation. Which last applies even if we were to speak of a rocket hurtling through space, there is an implicit or explicit foundation of coherence with laws of the relevant nature at work, mechanical or moral etc. We all have faith points that are of foundational character, whether or not we like it. And that is where comparative difficulties across factual adequacy [including relevant SETs], coherence and balanced explanatory power come to bear. That is our real challenge, to use comparative difficulties to avert falling into question-begging imposition of arbitrary unaccountable principles that are either poofed up from nothing but our wishes or are in the question-begging situation of P depending on Q and Q on P. The need for a world-root rests, in turn on an analysis of being, which you have again not seriously addressed. I again link here on for a 101. One that starts with SETs and goes on to deal with being and roots of reality, also with grounding morality. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2017
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AJ, again, you refuse to pay attention tot he significance of the example of Wilberforce. You have then set up a strawman trarget to pummel. This shows a failure to address how reforms work. You have also refused, repeatedly, to acknowledge the force of other explanations from all sorts of directions. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2017
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@KF
We now have three choices: infinite regress of argument [dynamically impossible and logically absurd], a question-begging circularity where some P leads to Q and Q back to P [grand question-begging], or else we stop at a set of first plausibles, F, defining our faith point that can hold its own on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power.
We? No, as a foundationalist, you have three choices. The need to choose from one of those three, and only those three, is a philosophical position. Your failure to acknowledge this is my point.
The need for a world root is established, save to those who choose to be hyperskeptically dismissive.
Hyperskeptical? Again, why do you assume I think I am a skeptic, in that there can no knowledge? Oh, that’s right. You’re projectingting your foundationalism on me. The lack of a foundation for knowledge is a problem for you, not me. You’re the one stuck with those three options. Again, what I’m suggesting is that we conjecture solutions to moral problems, then criticize them. Moral knowledge is objective, we just do not have access to it as a source of knowledge that you’re implying. We end up with approximations of moral truths that get is closer. At best, you could say there must be some values or duties an objective source of moral values would impose, but it’s unclear how you know what they would be unless you had a way to infallibly identify and interpret that source. Human reasoning and criticism always comes first. That we supposedly have no other option is not an argument. But, by all means. Please provide an explanation as to how that would be possible.critical rationalist
April 1, 2017
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KF:
Phinehas (attn AJ), see how seared — as with a hot iron — and so how soberingly benumbed our consciences have become? How else are we ever so willing to ponder willfully imposed death of the innocent (whom we dehumanise) as a solution to personal, social and economic problems.
Yet you are not prepared to punish the people responsible for murdering these 800+ million and counting.Armand Jacks
April 1, 2017
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PPS: Let me again refresh our memories, as 143 was long since buried in the comment chain:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State[ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)kairosfocus
April 1, 2017
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Phinehas (attn AJ), see how seared -- as with a hot iron -- and so how soberingly benumbed our consciences have become? How else are we ever so willing to ponder willfully imposed death of the innocent (whom we dehumanise) as a solution to personal, social and economic problems. No wonder Schaeffer and Koop pointed to the three linked issues, abortion, infanticide, euthanasia [and all its even more wicked extensions]. Infanticide is now also an established practice, and so is euthanasia. Something, we once recoiled from in horror when we saw it at work in the hands of the Nazis -- we forget that in many cases, it was medical practitioners who championed such so-called solutions in Germany at that time. We have sown the wind and wonder that we are beginning to reap the tornado-force whirlwind. Blood guilt-seared consciences, herein lies one of the reasons for the woeful state of modern discussion of morally freighted issues capable only of moral evidence and warrant. Where, we are morally governed creatures under the law of our manifest nature that in the first instance is perpetually brought to our attention by conscience, when such is sound. Diagnosis: unsound consciences. Prognosis: if unchecked, march of folly (even, iniquitous folly) to ruin. As Plato's Socrates warned in his parable of the mutinous ship of state, and as the equivalent of those ill-advised sailors today would have us forget. KF PS: The ever wise Simon Greenleaf:
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. [--> that is, his focus is on the logic of good support for in principle uncertain conclusions, i.e. in the modern sense, inductive logic and reasoning in real world, momentous contexts with potentially serious consequences.] Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. [--> the issue of warrant to moral certainty, beyond reasonable doubt; and the contrasted absurdity of selective hyperskepticism.] The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. [--> moral certainty standard, and this is for the proverbial man in the Clapham bus stop, not some clever determined advocate or skeptic motivated not to see or assent to what is warranted.] The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. [--> pistis enters; we might as well learn the underlying classical Greek word that addresses the three levers of persuasion, pathos- ethos- logos and its extension to address worldview level warranted faith-commitment and confident trust on good grounding, through the impact of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in C1 as was energised by the 500 key witnesses.] By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind [--> in British usage, the man in the Clapham bus stop], beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal [--> and responsible] test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [= definition of moral certainty as a balanced unprejudiced judgement beyond reasonable, responsible doubt. Obviously, i/l/o wider concerns, while scientific facts as actually observed may meet this standard, scientific explanatory frameworks such as hypotheses, models, laws and theories cannot as they are necessarily provisional and in many cases have had to be materially modified, substantially re-interpreted to the point of implied modification, or outright replaced; so a modicum of prudent caution is warranted in such contexts -- explanatory frameworks are empirically reliable so far on various tests, not utterly certain. ] [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
A word to the wise . . .kairosfocus
April 1, 2017
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Phinehas:
Huh. This is sounding a lot like what everyone else has been saying. Why are you suddenly getting all reasonable when the shoe is on the other foot, AJ?
I have been very consistent on this. If society deems that the fetus has the same right to life as you and I, anyone who kills the fetus should face the same punishment as if that person killed you or I.
Wait a second. This looks like more deflecting instead of sticking with what you believe.
The only people deflecting are KF, WM and others who believe that the fetus has the same right to life as you or I, regardless of stage of development. I have always said that this right increases with development.
You’ve already admitted that the fetus is a human life and that this life is being killed.
Yes.
And you’ve said that abortions where the mother’s life isn’t at risk are a crime.
No. I've said that I think that late term abortions where the mother's life isn't at risk are a crime.
Why would it be a crime if the fetus had no rights?
Where did I say that the fetus had no rights?
Less than 1% of abortions are performed in an attempt to save the mother’s life.
And less than 1% are conducted after the first trimester. Could there possibly be a link?
Even so, have it your way. Let’s drop that number of murders down to 124,000 in the US annually. Do you think that gives you a lot of traction to continue denying the holocaust?
Are you seriously suggesting that 124,000 second and third trimester abortions are on demand abortions? You should really check your numbers. They are wrong.Armand Jacks
March 31, 2017
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AJ:
If the woman has an unnecessary abortion after the first trimester, she should be charged with the crime that society deems appropriate.
Huh. This is sounding a lot like what everyone else has been saying. Why are you suddenly getting all reasonable when the shoe is on the other foot, AJ?
If the fetus is deserving of the same right to life as KF, WM and others claim, the charge would have to be first degree murder and the punishment would be anything between 25 years and death.
Wait a second. This looks like more deflecting instead of sticking with what you believe. You've already admitted that the fetus is a human life and that this life is being killed. And you've said that abortions where the mother's life isn't at risk are a crime. Why would it be a crime if the fetus had no rights? What right does the fetus possess that makes abortion a crime? What kind of crime are we talking about here if not deliberate homicide?
And how many of these were abortions on demand and how many were the result of a serious risk to the health of the woman?
Less than 1% of abortions are performed in an attempt to save the mother's life. The vast majority are performed for other reasons. I find it curious that, on the one hand, you defend abortion because, "The vast majority of abortions now occur in the first trimester," while on the other, you defend abortion despite the fact that the vast majority of abortions are not about saving the mother's life. You appear to be able to use the "vast majority" argument or not with a high degree of flexibility. Even so, have it your way. Let's drop that number of murders down to 124,000 in the US annually. Do you think that gives you a lot of traction to continue denying the holocaust? As someone once said, "As far as I can tell, there are only two possible explanations for this." Since you are very familiar with those two explanations, I won't repeat them. But I still think hypocrisy has the inside track as a third possible explanation for what we're seeing from some posters in this thread.Phinehas
March 31, 2017
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Phineas, AJ is trying to desensitise us to the reality of global abortion. 800+ millions killed in the womb since the 1970's and mounting at a million more per week. The worst holocaust in history. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2017
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AJ you are still failing to face the issue: killing posterity in the womb, typically for reasons that cannot stack up in the face of the issue of life. Commoditising and dehumanising then killing should be ringing loudest warning bells.That it is not is flipping even bigger warning bells. KFkairosfocus
March 30, 2017
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Phinehas:
But we’re only talking about you and your beliefs.
No, we are talking about me and my opinions based on the arguments that I have made.
But we are not talking about the vast majority of abortions that occur in the first trimester. Only those murders that occur in the second and third trimesters. For these, will you be advocating for the death penalty?
For abortions that are done to save the woman's life, no. If the woman has an unnecessary abortion after the first trimester, she should be charged with the crime that society deems appropriate. And, if convicted, receive the punishment dictated by the crime. If the fetus is deserving of the same right to life as KF, WM and others claim, the charge would have to be first degree murder and the punishment would be anything between 25 years and death.
Well, I’m not sure what constitutes a holocaust, but I would think just the 140,000 second and third trimester abortions performed in a single year in the US ought to qualify.
And how many of these were abortions on demand and how many were the result of a serious risk to the health of the woman?
What are you doing about all these murders, Armand Jacks?
I have proposed a detailed approach that has been shown to significantly reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions. What have you done other than insist that abortions be made illegal even though that has been shown not to work?Armand Jacks
March 30, 2017
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*crickets* The hypocrisy rings through just as clearly with the silence. I won't belabor the point.Phinehas
March 30, 2017
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AJ:
And during the first trimester, according to KF and WM.
But we're only talking about you and your beliefs. There's no need to deflect.
Because it is not a holocaust. The vast majority of abortions now occur in the first trimester.
But we are not talking about the vast majority of abortions that occur in the first trimester. Only those murders that occur in the second and third trimesters. For these, will you be advocating for the death penalty? Will you support rounding up women retroactively and charging them?
Because it is not a holocaust.
Well, I'm not sure what constitutes a holocaust, but I would think just the 140,000 second and third trimester abortions performed in a single year in the US ought to qualify. That's nearly ten times the number of other murders nationwide for most years. Once you start taking past decades into account, surely that number rises to something you would be hard-pressed to deny as a holocaust. What are you doing about all these murders, Armand Jacks?Phinehas
March 29, 2017
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Phinehas:
Well, that would mean that, in the case of an abortion after the first trimester, a human life is being killed, wouldn’t it? Deliberately killed, right?
And during the first trimester, according to KF and WM.
You really, really want to charge women with first degree murder, don’t you?
Not at all. I am in favour of abortion on demand in the first trimester, and only if the woman's health is seriously at risk after that. I though I was clear on this.
But why, oh why, Armand Jacks, are you not doing even more to prevent the holocaust of abortions performed after the first trimester?
Because it is not a holocaust. The vast majority of abortions now occur in the first trimester. In Canada, there is no legal restriction on abortion at any stage. Yet later stage abortions are limited to situations where the woman's health is at serious risk. In short, it is self policed.Armand Jacks
March 29, 2017
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AJ:
Phin: What is it that is perceiving this pain? A human life? Or something else?
AJ: Human life.
Uh-oh. Well, that would mean that, in the case of an abortion after the first trimester, a human life is being killed, wouldn't it? Deliberately killed, right?
AJ: Is the woman not the one making the decision? If I hire someone to kill someone, I am charged with first degree murder.
You really, really want to charge women with first degree murder, don't you? But why, oh why, Armand Jacks, are you not doing even more to prevent the holocaust of abortions performed after the first trimester? PS: To be fair, rvb8 did warn you.Phinehas
March 29, 2017
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JaD:
Armand Jacks opinion is not at argument.
Then you haven't read my other comments where I explain the rationale that forms the foundation of my opinion.
If all we have in the moral realm are subjective opinions then there is no possibility of finding moral truth or even any kind of common ground.
You are half right. We can't find moral truth. But we can certainly find common ground.
It that’s true the very idea of universal human rights completely collapses.
Correct. But that doesn't have to stop us from developing consensus on human rights that all countries must abide by or suffer the consequences. Just like we do now.
Already in the U.S. there are numerous example of fundamental human rights being undermined or abridged for the sake of new made-up rights. For example, florists, bakers and photographers being fined for not participating in a same sex wedding.
These laws were enacted because businesses were using religious freedom as an excuse to refuse service to different races, inter-racial couples, etc. Sorry, I have no sympathy for these knuckle-draggers.
Same-sex marriage” is an idea that has been arbitrarily made up whole cloth by the secular progressive left in that last 50 years. It has absolutely no basis in history, tradition or biology– neither two men nor two women cannot make a baby. However, it is a way for the secular progressive left to carry out its anti-religious agenda. After all where do most people get married? In churches, don’t they?
Are churches being forced to conduct same sex marriages? If you live in a country with separation of church and state (eg., US and Canada) the church is entitled to maintain its intolerant traditions within the walls of its churches. Is anyone forcing you to marry a man?
As for abortion, in the 1970’s legislation in the U.S. was passed that protected the conscience of pro-life doctors (they could not be coerced into performing abortions.) That may be changing.
Sorry, but I am pretty sure that my orthopaedic surgeon will not be forced to perform abortions. Any doctor not trained and qualified to perform them will not be forced to perform them. All that is being required is that the doctor refer the patient to someone else.
AJ’s opinion is nothing more than an irrational rationalization by an irrational “rationalist.”
Except for the fact that I have laid out my logic and reasoning for my opinion and aside from one or two people here, nobody has made an attempt to address my arguments with compelling counter arguments.Armand Jacks
March 28, 2017
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Phinehas:
What is it that is perceiving this pain? A human life? Or something else?
Human life.
Is the reference to being self-aware and conscious an appeal to criteria that could indicate life? Or something else?
It is only an appeal to something that might be self aware and conscious. Nothing more, nothing less.
Causing pain is not illegal in many cases, else my dentist would be in jail. Why should it be illegal in this case?
You need a better dentist. Except in cases where the person is not capable of giving informed consent to necessary medical procedures (eg, babies, children, etc.) causing pain to someone without their approval is illegal.
What if the fetus were anesthetized before the abortion? Would you then have no issues with it?
You would still be killing something that might have had self awareness and was conscious. A first trimester fetus never had either.
The best possible world is also one where women are never put in a place where they are sexually abused. Simply making sexual abuse illegal will not achieve this. Thus we should have no such laws? I do not see how the one follows from the other.
Sexual assault does harm to a self aware, conscious and unwilling individual. A first trimester abortion does not.
LOL! In reading through the thread, it looked more like they couldn’t tear you away from concentrating on charging women with first degree murder. Most of the pro-life crowd seemed to want to concentrate on criminalizing the ones performing the abortions.
Is the woman not the one making the decision? If I hire someone to kill someone, I am charged with first degree murder. But if a woman hires someone to kill someone, she should not be charged with first degree murder? As I said before, this is completely inconsistent with the claim that a fetus (from conception to birth) is a human being with the same right to life as you and I. As far as I can tell, there are only two possible explanations for this: 1) KF, WM and others really don't believe that an early stage fetus is deserving of the same right to life that you and I enjoy, or; 2) they do not feel that pregnant women are intellectually or emotionally capable of discerning right from wrong. I honestly hope that it is the former.Armand Jacks
March 28, 2017
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Phinehas citing Armand Jacks quote,
I do not oppose abortion on demand in the first trimester. A decision completely made by the woman upon consultation with a doctor. After the first trimester, it is my opinion that it should not be available on demand and only be used when the woman’s health is at serious risk.
(emphasis added) Armand Jacks opinion is not at argument. It is just an arbitrary subjective opinion which carries no interpersonal moral obligation. If all we have in the moral realm are subjective opinions then there is no possibility of finding moral truth or even any kind of common ground. It that’s true the very idea of universal human rights completely collapses. Indeed I think that is what we are seeing is the west. Already in the U.S. there are numerous example of fundamental human rights being undermined or abridged for the sake of new made-up rights. For example, florists, bakers and photographers being fined for not participating in a same sex wedding. “Same-sex marriage” is an idea that has been arbitrarily made up whole cloth by the secular progressive left in that last 50 years. It has absolutely no basis in history, tradition or biology-- neither two men nor two women cannot make a baby. However, it is a way for the secular progressive left to carry out its anti-religious agenda. After all where do most people get married? In churches, don’t they? As for abortion, in the 1970’s legislation in the U.S. was passed that protected the conscience of pro-life doctors (they could not be coerced into performing abortions.) That may be changing. AJ’s opinion is nothing more than an irrational rationalization by an irrational “rationalist.” Why does he need to rationalize? I have no idea but maybe he can “enlighten” us. However, I doubt he really cares. If he doesn’t believe in moral truth, why should he?john_a_designer
March 28, 2017
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AJ: No worries. Thanks for responding.
After the first trimester, however, the brain is starting to develop and at some point, but definitely not before the second trimester, it can perceive pain. When it becomes self aware and conscious is less well understood but the perception of pain is.
What is it that is perceiving this pain? A human life? Or something else? Is the reference to being self-aware and conscious an appeal to criteria that could indicate life? Or something else? Causing pain is not illegal in many cases, else my dentist would be in jail. Why should it be illegal in this case? What if the fetus were anesthetized before the abortion? Would you then have no issues with it?
This being said, I have also said that the best possible world is one in which no woman is ever in a position where they believe that an abortion is the best option for them. Simply making abortion illegal will not achieve this. It will just push it back into the corners where it survived and thrived for as long as humans have existed. I have even provided an approach with real world examples that will significantly reduce the rates and numbers of abortion but nobody will respond to these.
The best possible world is also one where women are never put in a place where they are sexually abused. Simply making sexual abuse illegal will not achieve this. Thus we should have no such laws? I do not see how the one follows from the other.
They only concentrate on criminalizing women.
LOL! In reading through the thread, it looked more like they couldn't tear you away from concentrating on charging women with first degree murder. Most of the pro-life crowd seemed to want to concentrate on criminalizing the ones performing the abortions.Phinehas
March 28, 2017
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As such, it does not suffer if aborted.
Armand, I think you are being deliberately obtuse again here. The first trimester baby does suffer if aborted. He or she is being deprived of all the moments of life that he or she has naturally coming to him or her. It's the same concept as some meanie removing your legs, so from that point forward you are unable to run naturally. If you were painlessly deprived of your legs, do you think that would be fair to you? Andrewasauber
March 28, 2017
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Phinehas, I apologize if I didn't respond. I thought I had.
After the first trimester, do you believe abortion should not be available because it is the taking of a life? Or is there some other reason it should not be available?
I don't think that it should be available on demand after the first trimester. But it should be used if the woman's health is at serious risk. The reason is simple. Before the second trimester, the fetus is not self-aware, is not conscious and cannot perceive pain. As such, it does not suffer if aborted. After the first trimester, however, the brain is starting to develop and at some point, but definitely not before the second trimester, it can perceive pain. When it becomes self aware and conscious is less well understood but the perception of pain is. This being said, I have also said that the best possible world is one in which no woman is ever in a position where they believe that an abortion is the best option for them. Simply making abortion illegal will not achieve this. It will just push it back into the corners where it survived and thrived for as long as humans have existed. I have even provided an approach with real world examples that will significantly reduce the rates and numbers of abortion but nobody will respond to these. They only concentrate on criminalizing women.Armand Jacks
March 28, 2017
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Armand Jacks: Perhaps you missed this earlier. I will post it again just to be sure. (If you ignore it again, one might suspect that you are doing so deliberately, potentially because you see an inconsistency in your own position that you are loathe to admit or address.)
I do not oppose abortion on demand in the first trimester. A decision completely made by the woman upon consultation with a doctor. After the first trimester, it is my opinion that it should not be available on demand and only be used when the woman’s health is at serious risk.
After the first trimester, do you believe abortion should not be available because it is the taking of a life? Or is there some other reason it should not be available?Phinehas
March 28, 2017
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KF:
AJ, CR et al, you have long since been pointed to the key historical parallel of Wilberforce on the slave trade. That wicked, kidnapping based trade was associated with holocaust level death tolls.
I have responded to this on several occasions and you have not addressed my comment other than to parrot the same thing over and over again.
Why didn’t Wilberforce invest in a privateer fleet and attack the slavers directly?
In effect, he did just that. As a very politically influential individual in the most powerful country in the world at the time, he was able to get the government to pay for the naval actions to attack the slavers. This from brother Wiki:
The Royal Navy established the West Africa Squadron (or Preventative Squadron) at substantial expense in 1808 after Parliament passed the Slave Trade Act of 1807. The squadron's task was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the coast of West Africa.[1] With a home base at Portsmouth,[2] it began with two small ships, the 32-gun fifth-rate frigate HMS Solebay and the Cruizer-class brig-sloop HMS Derwent. At the height of its operations, the squadron employed a sixth of the Royal Navy fleet and marines. Between 1808 and 1860 the West Africa Squadron captured 1,600 slave ships and freed 150,000 Africans.
. KF:
Why did he not press in parliament for them to be tried as kidnappers and murderers?
Possibly because the general belief amongst Europeans in that time were that Africans were savage and less "human" than caucasians. And, possibly because there was no precedent in that day for doing such a thing. Neither you nor I know his real motivation for not doing so. But he was definitely in favour of charging slavers after the abolition act was enacted. Which raises the question of why you are not in favour of charging women who have abortions after you are successful in making abortion illegal with murder and receiving the minimum sentence according to the law if found guilty.
I think that instead of that sort of rhetorical gamesmanship, you would be far better advised to ask your self what sort of horror are we enabling, that mounts up from a base of 800+ million unborn killed in the womb in the past 40+ years, at the current rate of a million more per week? KF
Yet I have proposed an approach that has been shown to significantly reduce abortion rates while you have only proposed making abortion from conception to birth illegal with all of the consequences that entails. A strategy that history has shown does not actually reduce the abortion rate but will increase the mortality and health risks of women.Armand Jacks
March 27, 2017
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CR, I see you are still imagining that by attacking foundationalism, you can in effect dismiss concerns and evidence and reasoning put before you on self evident truth etc. First, I need to point out that philosophy is a discipline where even the definition of phil itself is open to debates and objections. And across time any number of patently absurd views were stoutly defended by the committed. To soundly address matters relevant to the woeful state of discussion today, we need to go elsewhere. First, the dynamics of argument. I have long pointed out that when one puts up a claim A, then the challenge, why occurs. This leads to B, maybe a claim of evidence or observation or an underlying set of premises that warrant or are said to warrant A. Why B? C. Thence, C, D, etc. We now have three choices: infinite regress of argument [dynamically impossible and logically absurd], a question-begging circularity where some P leads to Q and Q back to P [grand question-begging], or else we stop at a set of first plausibles, F, defining our faith point that can hold its own on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. Which first plausibles will in the normal case include key self evident truths such as the first principles of right reason, some version of a rational principle of being (thus of possible vs impossible, contingent vs necessary and linked concept of cause and effect), etc. That allows us to hold a reasonable, responsible faith. We are now at the core of worldviews and also are looking at the roots of actual reality. For, a given actualised being A is either going to be causally rooted in something else B (it is contingent, like a fire), or it is such that no possible world can be without A (e.g. 2-ness and/or distinct identity -- a necessary being). the chain of contingent beings cannot continue to infinity as cause-effect chains are finite, strepwise processes. That is, we look at how temporal succession (and support) occur. No stepwise chain can continue until it traverses the transfinite. It can only be potentially infinite, increasing for all we know without onward terminus. This is sufficient to show that the [quasi-] physical world -- beyond the big bang -- has a causal root involving inter alia necessary beings. For, non-being has no causal powers and were there ever utter nothing, that would forever obtain. The need for a world root is established, save to those who choose to be hyperskeptically dismissive. Enough for now, RW calls for instant action. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2017
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