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The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
TA, your rhetorical game fails. Given that there is a toxic underlying context of a longstanding false accusation by a leading spokesman for Darwinism, simply to see objectionists coming from the list is more than enough warrant to challenge them about it. And in this case the accusation was made in the context of my having taken pains to go through CR's remarks precisely to correct fundamental problems with first principles of right reason, in the further context of his attempted piling on elsewhere to accuse me of not answering his questions. The result is highly instructive. I have answered, point by point. I was falsely accused of insanity and have seen CR studiously avoiding the correction. Meanwhile, your own onward commentary indicates you tried to pile on without seeing close context and have continued in a distractive path. Save, that on fair comment you inadvertently illustrate the point WJM was making in the OP. G'day. KFkairosfocus
April 27, 2017
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Hammaspeiko: "timothya: ““Can you point me to any post by Armand Jacks where he/she implies that anyone disagreeing with him/her “must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked”.” Well, there is this one: “I hate to break the news to you, but putting a number at the front of each of your sentences doesn’t make it s point by point response to anything. Other than a response to the question of your sanity. It answers that question quite nicely.” Fair enough, that deals with a charge of insanity. Now what about the other three.timothya
April 27, 2017
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CR, it is now the following Thursday after last Saturday. You have not even acknowledged that I took time to go through your arguments presented after this thread faded (and which you then used elsewhere to pile on on a false accusation that I don't answer questions). The above highlights that your core problems lie in the area of serious misunderstanding of the first principles of right reason and the linked structure of worldviews. As you had accused me elsewhere, I decided to take time to answer point by point all the way through for record. In response, you are evidently studiously avoiding both the correction and the demonstration of what answering in toto would look like. Your sustained evidently evasive behaviour since then (the above having been repeatedly pointed out to you where you HAVE popped up) begins to suggest that the merits have not been your focal concern, but instead that you set out to push an argument that is deeply questionable. I suggest, you need to reconsider. KF PS: I note, from elsewhere, a further point of serious concern about your argument that has come up, namely evident utter self-referential incoherence:
CR, did you really ponder the source you cited above with approval, when it said:
According to the stance of critical preference no position can be positively justified but it is quite likely that one, (or some) will turn out to be better than others are in the light of critical discussion and tests. This type of rationality holds all its positions and propositions open to criticism and a standard objection to this stance is that it is empty; just holding our positions open to criticism provides no guidance as to what position we should adopt in any particular situation. This criticism misses its mark for two reasons. First, the stance of critical preference is not a position, it is a metacontext and as such it is not directed at solving the kind of problems that are solved by adopting a position on some issue or other.
Including the position just cited? Do you not see the gross self-referential incoherence and so also self-falsification implied in the highlighted? There is a world of difference between being critically aware and going to the extreme of reification that erects being aware that errors exist into the core of the system and denying that essentially anything can be justified beyond reasonable doubt. I suggest to you that as a start for each of us it is undeniably true and evident to us that we are conscious, once we are. Second, The Josiah Royce proposition that error exists is not only a matter of fact but can be demonstrated to be undeniably so, as the attempted denial leads straight to a case in point. More broadly, there are significant numbers of self-evident propositions beyond these two, that serve as plumblines for rational, responsible discourse. Starting with distinct identity and its corollaries the triple first principles of right reason, LOI, LNC, LEM. Just to object to such you have to implicitly rely on them, bringing your whole scheme into self-referential incoherence and self-falsification. Such has been pointed out to you any number of times across literally years, here at UD. I don't doubt that others elsewhere have tried to set you to rights also. I suggest you are clinging to a system that is utterly and irretrievably self-falsifying, and that you would do better to take a reasonable time out and reconsider your worldview from the ground up. I suspect, I am simply writing for the record, given your track record, but this point of reference will always be there to point you to if and when you insist on popping up with the same again and again. FTR, KF
This seems to strongly indicate deep incoherence in your schemes of thought. It would be advisable for you to reconsider.kairosfocus
April 27, 2017
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timothya: "“Can you point me to any post by Armand Jacks where he/she implies that anyone disagreeing with him/her “must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked”." Well, there is this one: "I hate to break the news to you, but putting a number at the front of each of your sentences doesn’t make it s point by point response to anything. Other than a response to the question of your sanity. It answers that question quite nicely."hammaspeikko
April 26, 2017
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AJ, Your childish taunts (see 222) are going to lead to your ouster from these pages yet again. Last warning.Barry Arrington
April 25, 2017
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with all due respect, it was and is a reasonable expectation that you would be able to scroll up a short distance, and that you would read context before trying to pile on. And still, this is tangential, apart from inadvertently exemplifying WJM's theme in the OP. KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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KF: "TA, I did give an answer, which you just disregarded. KF" The question was: "Can you point me to any post by Armand Jacks where he/she implies that anyone disagreeing with him/her “must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked”. I can’t find one, but perhaps I missed it." You didn't answer. Where is the post by Armand Jacks claiming that he/she implies that anyone disagreeing with him/her "must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked”. If it is true that he/she posted such a claim, it can't be too hard for you to produce the post.timothya
April 25, 2017
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TA, I did give an answer, which you just disregarded. KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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KF:: "TA, perhaps you have failed to follow his rhetorical pattern across time. And I actually cited Darwin’s Rottweiler on the underlying attitude, not AJ. Do you disown the attitude? If so kindly explain why you repudiate Dawkins et al, and let us know how you have set out to correct this bigotry. if you wish to join a pile on on an accusation that only a qualified practitioner should make, on the strength of my having taken time to answer CR point by point, kindly substantiate how and why exactly the points of response indicate such. Or, for cause I will hold you to have joined in a slander. KF" Jeez mate, I just asked a question. You decided not to answer it. What am I supposed to conclude?timothya
April 25, 2017
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Obviously, I am concerned with both and particularly with the specific point of intersection of their remarks, which suggests a common bigoted attitude. Now, your own intervention raises the question of a slanderous pile-on that side tracks a substantial issue; though it may actually be inadvertently illustrative of the theme of the overall thread. And FYI, part of why I took time Saturday morning is that CR tried to pile on in another thread, pointing to his comments above as though they proved evasion of issues on my part. I highlighted there how he posted in a faded thread here and when I had time I answered his arguments above point by point. Now, the issue of substantiation on your part still obtains. KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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KF: "TA, perhaps you have failed to follow his rhetorical pattern across time. And I actually cited Darwin’s Rottweiler on the underlying attitude, not AJ. Do you disown the attitude? If so kindly explain why you repudiate Dawkins et al, and let us know how you have set out to correct this bigotry. if you wish to join a pile on on an accusation that only a qualified practitioner should make, on the strength of my having taken time to answer CR point by point, kindly substantiate how and why exactly the points of response indicate such. Or, for cause I will hold you to have joined in a slander. KF" I see. So your complaint is with Richard Dawkins and not with Armand Jacks. Now I understand.timothya
April 25, 2017
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TA, perhaps you have failed to follow his rhetorical pattern across time. And I actually cited Darwin's Rottweiler on the underlying attitude, not AJ. Do you disown the attitude? If so kindly explain why you repudiate Dawkins et al, and let us know how you have set out to correct this bigotry. if you wish to join a pile on on an accusation that only a qualified practitioner should make, on the strength of my having taken time to answer CR point by point, kindly substantiate how and why exactly the points of response indicate such. Or, for cause I will hold you to have joined in a slander. KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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KF: "Re AJ: It is noteworthy that this objector has spoken with dismissive animosity and bigotry — as in if you dare disagree with the party of Darwin etc you must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked — without cogent response on substance; yet another spin on his pretence that answers are not answers. In reply I point out that to speak as he has plainly consistently done (i.e. with disregard to truth in hope that what he has said or suggested will be taken as true) is to LIE. Further to this, it also seems it has never dawned on this trollish commenter that enumeration of points is a means to enable onward discussion point by point. KF" Can you point me to any post by Armand Jacks where he/she implies that anyone disagreeing with him/her "must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked". I can't find one, but perhaps I missed it.timothya
April 25, 2017
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Re AJ: It is noteworthy that this objector has spoken with dismissive animosity and bigotry -- as in if you dare disagree with the party of Darwin etc you must be ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked -- without cogent response on substance; yet another spin on his pretence that answers are not answers. In reply I point out that to speak as he has plainly consistently done (i.e. with disregard to truth in hope that what he has said or suggested will be taken as true) is to LIE. Further to this, it also seems it has never dawned on this trollish commenter that enumeration of points is a means to enable onward discussion point by point. KFkairosfocus
April 25, 2017
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KF:
Point by point response to CR uploaded a day ago.
I hate to break the news to you, but putting a number at the front of each of your sentences doesn't make it s point by point response to anything. Other than a response to the question of your sanity. It answers that question quite nicely.Armand Jacks
April 24, 2017
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Two days and counting.kairosfocus
April 24, 2017
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Point by point response to CR uploaded a day ago.kairosfocus
April 23, 2017
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Web accesskairosfocus
April 22, 2017
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CR, Today being Saturday, and with the linked political crises here, in the UK and St Helena being on hold for the moment until a trigger event anticipated early next week (if we are lucky . . . ), I have time to do a point by point dissection (not just a response to key-seeming highlights that strike my eye for what seems pivotal) under the spirit of the theme of this thread: >>>>>>>>>> >> [[KF--> } CR], I did not arbitrarily pick distinct identity from a field of candidates. The point is this is tied to a triple cluster self evident truth and grounds both communication and reasoning. Actually, I said deciding that some ideas are immune from criticism, while others are not, is arbitrary.>> 1 --> Just to comment you are forced to rely on the distinct identity of symbols in character-strings, illustrating how the self-evidence of the triple-consequences arises: LOI, LNC, LEM. 2 --> And FYI, self-evident truths, precisely, are not ARBITRARY and picked as immune from criticism in an arbitrary fashion. They are truths that once we have the experience to understand will be seen as so, as necessarily so and this on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. They are not proved, they are the plumbline tests that proofs insofar as we can construct, must start from. 3 --> However, this reality clearly cuts so cleanly across your ideological scheme that you keep constructing a strawman caricature, as I objected to. 4 --> It is also evident that you have never seriously reflected on the triple first principles of right reason. As an aspect, let me introduce you to someone who has, St Paul -- and yes this is from the just linked longstanding discussion you have often been pointed to:
[KF in NCST, U2:] . . . though it is quite unfashionable to seriously say such nowadays (an indictment of our times . . .), to try to deny the classic three basic principles of right reason -- the law of identity, that of non-contradiction, and that of the excluded middle -- inevitably ends up in absurdity. Why is that? Simple: to think at all, we must be able to distinguish things (or else all would be confusion and chaos), and these laws immediately follow from that first act of thought. A builder's plumb-line allows him to test whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical). Cf. Amos 7:7 - 9 for a prophetic rebuke and warning. The apostle Paul, in dealing with a church discipline problem in Corinth, by way of illustration, gives some profound insights on just how important distinction and clear identity in the midst of diversity are for understanding, reflecting on and communicationg about our common world. We can term this the plumb-line principle, the one we use to test the quality of our work, even as a plumb-line tests the quality of a wall. It will help us to bear Paul's thoughts in mind as we proceed:
1 Cor 14:7 If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? 8 And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle? 9 Just so it is with you; if you in the [unknown] tongue speak words that are not intelligible, how will anyone understand what you are saying? For you will be talking into empty space! 10 There are, I suppose, all these many [to us unknown] tongues in the world [somewhere], and none is destitute of [its own power of] expression and meaning. 11 But if I do not know the force and significance of the speech (language), I shall seem to be a foreigner to the one who speaks [to me], and the speaker who addresses [me] will seem a foreigner to me. [AMP]
Here, we are very close to seeing how the power of self-aware, self-moved mind, language and distinct related symbols and signals that can be communicated from one party to another, work together to enable rational thought and intelligible communication and mutual understanding. All of which crucially rests on the concept of distinct things with particular, distinct identities. So, now, a diagram showing the world split into two distinct labelled parts, A and NOT-A . . . or we could symbolise { A | NOT-A } . . . will help us see how naturally this happens once we can recognise some distinct entity A: [DIAG, World, W = {A | ~A }, A some distinct thing] If at a given moment we distinctly recognise, identify and label some thing, A -- say, a bright red ball on a table -- we mark a mental border-line and also necessarily identify NOT-A as "the rest of the World." We thus have a definite separation of the World into two parts, and it immediately and undeniably holds from such a world partition that: (a) the part labelled A will be A (symbolically, [A => A] = 1), (b) A will not be the same as NOT-A ( [A AND NOT-A] = 0); and (c) there is no third option to being A or NOT-A ( [A OR NOT-A] = 1). Or, to be clearer about the significance of the dichotomy in World, W = { A | NOT-A }, let's instead explicitly use the Exclusive OR, AUT not VEL: [A Ex-OR NOT-A] = 1. That is A, or not A but not a third option such as A AND NOT-A, and no fourth such as neither A nor NOT-A. So, we see how naturally the laws of (a) identity, (b) non-contradiction (or, non-confusion!), and (c) the excluded middle swing into action. This naturalness also extends to the world of statements that assert that something is true or false . . . . So, we can state the laws in more or less traditional terms, regarding distinct things -- objects, phenomena, states of affairs and the like: [a'] A distinct thing, A, is what it is (the law of identity); [b'] A distinct thing, A, cannot at once be and not-be (the law of non-contradiction); [c'] A distinct thing, A, is or it is not, but not both or neither (the law of the excluded middle) . . . . UD blog contributor Stephen B sometimes gives an apt, three perspective summary of the pivotal law of non-contradiction, e.g. here: [If] an object has an essence or a nature, we do, in fact, know what it is by virtue of having abstracted its universal “whatness” from the particular we encounter through our senses. In other words, the law of non-contradiction is true - ontologically–a thing is what it is and cannot also be something else at the same time and in the same way. - logically–a proposition about that thing cannot be true and false at the same time and in the same way. - psychologically–a proposition about that thing cannot seem to be true and false at the same time and in the same way.
5 --> To suggest this is arbitrary while using distinct symbols in S-T-R-I-N-G-S to try to communicate is outright patently absurd. 6 --> To see this, just try to communicate your claims without using anything that holds a distinct identity. You cannot, your whole argument has collapsed at the outset. Collapsed into absurdity. >>. . . I said deciding that some ideas are immune from criticism, while others are not, is arbitrary This is implied in the dichotomy of basic (self evident) beliefs that can play the role of a foundation for non-basic beliefs.>> 7 --> No such implication (a logical operation crucially dependent on distinct identity) obtains. 8 --> What has again been demonstrated is that there are natural truths that are self-evident and as a result foundational. 9 --> Your problem is, due to ideological hostility you will not acknowledge such. >> However, it’s not arbitrary if we tentatively adopt hard to vary explanations that we currently have no good criticism of.>> 10 --> Kindly, try to tentatively use distinct identity to communicate your notions, then on exercise B do the same communication without using this principle. The absurdity leaps out at once. >>Specifically, when I suggested that all ideas are subject to criticism,>> 11 --> Try to criticise an idea without using distinct identity as assumed, accepted, implicitly, unquestioningly true, please: _________ (You cannot, you have just spewed talking points without seriously thinking through the issue, landing you in public absurdity, demonstrating WJM's point from the OP and the issues in the thread.) >> why did you selected identity as an example of a supposedly self-evident truth, as opposed to other possible candidates?>> 12 --> I made no arbitrary selection, I pointed to a primary principle of coherently accessing and addressing reality. The absurdities compound, as all this time you are using distinct identity in order to try to cast rhetorical doubts about it. Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit. >> It was an idea you tried to criticize, but came back with none. If it was immune to criticism, you would have no reason to have selected it as an example as opposed to other ideas.>> 13 --> More, zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! >> The fact that identity is a useful idea that plays a hard to vary role in all of our current, best explanations, including communication, is a criticism to the idea that the idea of identity is itself wrong.>> 14 --> and all along, zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! >> IOW, this is just more criticism.>> 15 --> again, zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! >>Again, not having a good criticism of an idea not the same as assuming it is immune to criticism,>> 16 --> Drop the strawman, I have nowhere spoken of immunity to criticism, that is projection. I have spoken to self evident truth and have pointed out that trying to deny such lands in patent absurdity, as you are unwittingly illustrating: zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! >> which is what is necessary to be a foundation of knowledge that plays a unilateral role.>> 17 --> This expression seems to be ill-formed, but it uses distinct identity so: zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! >> [Citing KF:] But then, in our time, we have not been taught the significance of SETs, and may even have been taught to despise and dismiss them; e.g. the oh quantum objection that fails to reckon with how the objectors and the developers of the quantum theory had to implicitly rely on distinct identity starting with the proverbial scratch-marks on chalk boards; cf. here in the UD WACs. More sawing off of branches on which we must all sit. KF [[CR:} Pointing out there are other epistemologies that lack the problems of foundationalism is the opposite of being ignorant or dogmatically predisposed to rejecting it. Nor do I think they are unimportant.>> 18 --> Here we go again, using distinct identity, an undeniable first and foundational plausible of rational discussion to try to cast it into rhetorical doubt: zip, zip, zip, CRAACK! 19 --> Did you notice that you have failed to lay out one of your alternatives to the despised foundationalism, so that we may proceed with a clear comparative process using comparative difficulties? Why are you so coy? _______ 20 --> Let's try by pointing to the issue I have always started from (and which you have never cogently answered), chain of warrant. Let's see, give a claim A and ask, how do we provide adequate warrant for it. Oh, B, some further claim or claims, observations, inferences etc that ground accepting A as a rational response. But then, why accept B? C, then D etc. So, we face three alternatives:
1: infinite regress: . . . . D > C > B > A 2: circularity: [J --> K AND K --> J} > . . . D > C > B > A 3: a finitely remote set of first plausibles: F > . . . D > C > B > A (Where F_k is sustained on comparative difficulties among F_1 to F_n, as a reasonable faith-point.)
21 --> We cannot traverse an endless span in finite stage steps so 1 is absurd, regardless of what certain advocates have said. The real issue is to avoid question-begging circularity as in 2 [also fallacious] and this leads us to 3, finitely remote first plausibles at worldview level. 22 --> Such will include not only incorrigible beliefs and perceptions such as being conscious but also self evident plumbline truths and other elements that are postulated as providing coherence and stability per the logic of warrant by inference to the best explanation i/l/o comparative difficulties, that is a worldview is inherently of inductive character. 23 --> Comparative difficulties tests include factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power (simple but not simplistic nor an ad hoc patchwork.) 24 --> all of this has been repeatedly laid out and or is available just a link away, starting here on, just it has been studiously ignored and repeatedly replaced with strawman caricatures and the empty use of the in this context straw term, foundationalism. >>IOW, I’m still waiting for you to show how variation and criticism, without a foundation, is incompatible with what you call self-evident truths.>> 25 --> All of this is essentially meaningless, once we see that you have to implicitly rely on distinct identity as an unacknowledged necessary start point, just to say this. >> It’s not that I think they are unimportant, but since they are not actually immune to criticism, they cannot be a foundation in the sense that you are implying.>> 26 --> Oh yes, kindly explain in specific steps why what I have again pointed out fails: __________ >>Again, even if we assume we are somehow “under moral governance”, for the sake of argument,>> 27 --> Notice the rhetoric of distancing and denial of the self-evident fact of conscience and its compass-needle function? >> it’s unclear how this helps you in practice.>> 28 --> Let me again cite someone who has actually thought about the matter and made serious observations, St Paul:
Rom 2: 1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed . . . . 14 . . . when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. [ESV]
29 --> When I previously pointed this out to you as reflected in Locke's citation of Hooker in his 2nd treatise on civil govt ch 2 sec 5, you set up a veritable wall of strawmen and utterly confused the issue. Now, you misrepresent me as not having addressed the matter seriously. 30 --> In fact, I have actually worked out down to how we get to a responsible democratic order of society, e.g. here, and elsewhere I have used the sustainable development principle, the categorical imperative and the golden rule as a framework that allows formulation of national development policy and good governance policy. >> When actually faced with a concrete moral problem, how have identified what part of your conscious is from this moral governance?>> 31 --> Shifting the subject, but already answered. >> How do you know you have interpreted it correctly in your current situation?>> 32 --> We have long since gone over the issue of warrant in an inductive situation. Perhaps, another person who has thought this through, John Locke in the Intro to his essay on human understanding, sec 5, will help you to see how far you have gone quite far wrong:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.]
33 --> This has of course often been brought to your attention, just willfully ignored. >> You use human reasoning and criticism, that’s how. It always comes first.>> 34 --> That we are rational, responsible creatures able to reason is of course a truth that is either self evident or next to it. Such is now being abused rhetorically to try to pretend that nope, SET's are not significant. >>The parable of the ship pilot is an argument for why the philosopher-king should rule. I’m suggesting that’s the wrong question.>> 35 --> off on another tangent but let's respond. In plato's day, that was the only reasonable sustainable solution, even democracies were actually oligarchies of the most privileged men, the hoplite class responsible not to issue a cheque with their mouths that their spears and swords and ships could not cash. Alcibiades et al manipulated them into just that blunder, leading to the issue, who is fit to lead the state in counsel and in battle. 36 --> Plato's answer in that time was first to critique democracy, pointing out the problems it faced and the problems faced in trying to raise up sound leaders -- BTW including said Alcibiades who hung around with Socrates and was a friend though a frustrating one. 37 --> The issue I focussed was of course the dangers of ill informed body politics [the ship owner], manipulated by the selfishly ambitious and dangerously unwise [the mutinous sailors], and denigrating or doing worse to those who would do better. I also backed this up by making reference to a microcosm case, from Acts 27 -- I bet you have not spent a good fifteen minutes pondering the issues I raised. If you have kindly give a cogent response: _______ 37 --> What I have further argued is that modern liberty and democracy only became possible when the critical mass of reformation, printing, newspapers and linked ferment over good government came together in a new configuration across the late C17 - C18, and issued in the first modern democracy c 1776 - 1787. Then as that experiment succeeded against all odds over the next 150 or so years, its principles were adopted and adapted elsewhere, first mostly in the English speaking world, then the wider world. >> All of our ideas start out containing errors because they start out as guesses.>> 38 --> Does this claim also contain an error? Remember you have said in effect error is universal, this even undermines ability to correct error, as there is only an empty set there to begin with. 39 --> this illustrates a real error, an ill-fored assertion. >> So, we should setup institutions that make it easy to remove bad ideas without violence.>> 40 --> This does not depend on the previous, and no one of consequence objects to the need for human institutions to be self-correcting. 41 --> of course, you face the problem of finding something to serve as plumbline to correct. And if you play the Neurath's raft game, stand on part A to fix part B then the reverse, that leaves hanging the fact that the raft needs to be coherent dynamically and logically, and also that it rests on the ocean and the principle of flotation, i.e. it simply distracts from the issue of foundational commitments. >> The argument that things will always become corrupt is based on the idea that we started out with some perfect knowledge in the first place.>> 42 --> Strawman. No one has asserted that a cluster of e=self evident truths humans arrive at or recognise is adequate to construct a world or an institution or a system of government etc. Instead things like the first principles of right reason are testing principles, plumbline truths that allow us to recognise and correct errors. >> We never truly discover knowledge, we just “remember it”, because it was always there in some perfect form in the first place. That’s a philosophical view of knowledge, including moral knowledge.>> 43 --> Knowledge is warranted, credibly true belief, it is relative to us as finite, fallible, morally struggling and ill willed. It seems you have conflated three things: reality, truth that accurately describes reality and knowledge which denotes our well warranted credibly true beliefs about truth and reality. >> And that ignores the problem of having to identify and interpret knowledge.>> 44 --> Again a strawman target, no one has implied that we have cornered the market on knowledge or its meanings or its applicability. Have you forgotten that you are disucssing with someone who has argued in the main discussion I use for these worldview matters that the first self evident truth of consequence is that error exists? >> Even if you could somehow identify it was God that spoke to you, you’d need to figure out what he meant by that in the context of your specific moral problem.>> 45 --> it seems that you have confused God's knowledge and ability to communicate with our struggles to recognise and follow the truth and the right. >> Directly revealing the truth into your brain using divine means leads to the the question of distinguishing what God divinely revealed from your own ideas.>> 46 --> Has anyone argued this, no, this is another strawman set up to be conveniently knocked over. >> Nothing in your experience of that tells you which is which.>> 47 --> Actually, were God to speak audibly to you, you would sense the compass needle pricking, i.e. there is a way God can and does often speak to all of us, conscience. but the problem is we can break or blunt conscience through our deliberate behaviour. >> Many people disagree about what God supposedly reveals to them in ways that are mutually exclusive, so some of them are mistaken.>> 48 --> And it is a first self-evident truth that Error exists. The issue is principles of correction, hence SET's both general and moral. 49 --> Moral yardstick 1 as discussed, with all sorts of implications to be drawn out through use of another divine deposit the freedom and responsibility to reason: it is self-evidently evil to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually abuse and murder a young child for sick pleasure. 50 --> See if you can find a denial of this that is not at once absurd and utterly revealing. >>The problem of society becoming corrupt when it wasn’t before assumes that morality started out in some perfect state from which can only degrade.>> 51 --> More strawman caricatures. Where did you ever see us arguing that human civilisaitons full of us finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill willed people started out in a state of moral perfection? 52 --> Are you trying to suggest oh there was a garden of Eden and foreparents sinned? that was not a civilisation, and it would if anything illustrate the significance of responsible freedom and consequences of wrong choice. Where those who imagine moral innocence in the account implied ignorance should pause to see that Adam was in a position to do a huge biological job: assign names to the fellow creatures, a task of genius. 53 --> Where of course, nowhere in the argument until you hinted at it has this sort of thing come up. >> I’m suggesting that’s immoral because it implies that original state cannot be improved upon.>> 54 --> Why was Adam tasked to tend the garden if not to add his own creativity to improve it? 55 --> In short, more strawmen. >> It denies our ability to correct errors and make progress.>> 56 --> Bait and switch, Adam in original state was not morally struggling etc. by contrast we struggle with being finite, fallible, struggling and ill willed, so as I discussed from the outset the first corrective SET is to recognise that error exists. 57 --> So again a strawman and it looks like a turnabout projection. >> From this principle of criticism, we can get to approximations of moral truth, such as the immorality of slavery, torturing children, etc.>> 58 --> Kindly explain to me how the evil of kidnapping abusing and murdering a child for pleasure is a mere approximation to truth? 59 --> Again, sloppy thinking that sets up and knocked over strawman targets. >>Note, I’m not saying we do not face a problem. Problems are inevitable, but solvable. Holding morality hostage is not the solution. From the podcast I referenced earlier…>> 60 --> More strawmen, here also ad hominem abusive, through a false accustion. Where are we hjolding morality hostage to anything? Nowhere. We are pointing out that there are self evident corrective truths including moral ones. 61 --> Actually this strongly suggests that you do not really believe it is wrong, period, to abuse a child for pleasure like that. >> Well, I see human history as a long period of complete failure—failure, that is, to make any progress.>> 62 --> Ill informed, including on morality. >> Now, our species has existed for (depending on where you count it from) maybe 50,000 years, maybe 100,000 to 200,000 years. But anyway, the vast majority of that time, people were alive, they were thinking, they were suffering, they wanted things.>> 63 --> And whatever time we have lived we have been under the moral test. You are implying that suffering, thought and desire are evils in themselves. Sloppy wording at best. >> But nothing ever improved. The improvements that did happen happened so slowly that geologists can’t distinguish the difference between artifacts from one era to another with a resolution of 10,000 years.>> 64 --> Confused at best. >> So from the point of view of a human lifetime, nothing ever improved, with generation upon generation upon generation of suffering and stasis.>> 65 --> Oh people did not do better across their lifetime. And how did you know this? From whatever material traces you can find and insert into a model dating scheme and model reconstructed community? It seems you have at best conflated progress with material progress. >> Then there was slow improvement, and then more-rapid improvement.>> 66 --> more incoherence. >> Then there were several attempts to institutionalize a tradition of criticism, which I think is the key to rapid progress in the sense that we think of it: progress discernible on the timescale of a human lifetime, and also error correction so that regression is less likely.>> 67 --> Riding a hobby horse without legs, as shown above. >> That happened several times and failed every time except once—in the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries.>> 68 --> You of course left off the Reformation and the rise of printing starting with that little hated book, the Bible, and many other things. >>So you ask what worries me. What worries me is that the inheritors of that little bit of solitary progress are only a small proportion of the population of the world today.>> 69 --> irrelevancies >> It’s the culture or civilization that we call the West. Only the West really has a tradition of criticism, a bit institutionalized.>> 70 --> neatly silenced by word choice, the West for cause was known to one and all as Christendom in the relevant period. >>And this has manifested itself in various problems, including the problem of failed cultures that see their failure writ large by comparison with the West, and therefore want to do something about this that doesn’t involve creativity.>> 71 --> irrelevancy to the issues at stake. >> That is very, very dangerous. Then there’s the fact that in the West, what it takes to maintain our civilization is not widely known.>> 72 --> Continued irrelvancy >> In fact, as you’ve also said, the prevailing view among people in the West, including very educated people, is a picture of the relationship between knowledge, and progress, and civilization, and values that’s just wrong in so many different ways. So although the institutions of our culture are so amazingly good that they have been able to manage stability in the face of rapid change for hundreds of years, the knowledge of what it takes to keep civilization stable in the face of rapidly increasing knowledge is not very widespread.>> 73 --> True enough but irrelevant to the focal issue. >>In fact, severe misconceptions about several aspects of it are common among political leaders, educated people, and society at large. We’re like people on a huge, well-designed submarine, which has all sorts of lifesaving devices built in, who don’t know they’re in a submarine. They think they’re in a motorboat, and they’re going to open all the hatches because they want to have a nicer view.>> 74 --> True enough but irrelevant to the focal issue. >>>>>>>>>> See why I only rarely do this sort of point by point response anymore, it takes far to much time and is likely only useful for record. But you will never be able to truthfully say beyond this that I did not respond, step by step, point by point. Now, I gotta get up and get to the day, at 10:25 am. KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2017
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KF:
That in a thread where that was your talking point when in fact answers were there from the OP on.
Repeating this obvious fabrication does nothing more than reinforce the fact of your dishonesty. Your OP and subsequent comments did not come close to answering my question. All you did was repeat your same tired talking points about a world-root IS that grounds OUGHT and that your personal flavour of god is that necessary being. I asked you to describe the type of world that would exist if there was no world-root IS. Such a world is possible and not incoherent. It may be one that we would not recognize, but it it is possible. When I asked you to answer it, you repeatedly spewed the same lie about already answering it, and then claimed that I was making false accusations against you. A claim that is patently false and without warrant.
Also, earlier you tried much the same in this very thread and another one, in which despite answers to your questions that turned on the historical example set by Wilberforce, you pretended and proclaimed that your questions were not answered.
Again, you continue to make false accusations. This is becoming quite the habit with you. That discussion centred around the inconsistency between your belief that an early stage fetus has the same right to life as you and I, and your opposition to charging women who have abortions after it is made illegal with murder. You kept bringing up Wilberforce and his preference not to retroactively charge slavers. But this analogy is not relevant to the abortion issue, as I repeatedly pointed out. Although Wilberforce was opposed to retroactively opposed charging slavers, this immunity did not apply to slavers caught after the anti-slavery act was passed. But rather than acknowledge the irrelevance of the Wilberforce analogous to the charging of women who have abortions with murder, you double and tripled down and amped up your use of false accusations against me, as you have repeated again here. I still welcome you to answer any of these questions. Or simply admit that you have no intention of answering them. Either option has the benefit of displaying a level of honesty that has been sorely lacking from you of late. Alternately, you could continue to spew false accusations and hurt your reputation as an honest man even further. That hole you have dug yourself must be very deep by now. But look on the bright side. Your upper body strength must be significantly increasing with having to throw that dirt higher and higher.Armand Jacks
April 22, 2017
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AJ, your regrettable trollishness is on display for all to see; now spinning out in cross-threaded complaints that I happened to pick up in this dead thread as I had left a tab open; note above how CR commented twice THREE DAYS after the last comment, i.e. this thread had faded. He then misrepresented it in the thread I am about to link as a piling on on how I don't answer questions. That in a thread where that was your talking point when in fact answers were there from the OP on. Also, earlier you tried much the same in this very thread and another one, in which despite answers to your questions that turned on the historical example set by Wilberforce, you pretended and proclaimed that your questions were not answered. I trust you have taken time to now notice what happened when someone imagined that a world of relativist indoctrination fulfills the demand you made for providing a world in which there is no grounding for OUGHT. As a clue, one form of Kant's Categorical Imperative is that evils cannot be universalised, that is the attempt will end in incoherence, chaos or outright impossibility. From the ground up a possible world will need to be coherent, and a world that has genuinely rational creatures in it will have to address the need for genuine, responsible, morally governed freedom and computational substrates cannot effectively substitute. A robot world or even a computational simulation thereof, will need to be in detail, complex, coherent and functionally integrated, thus fine tuned and chock-full of your un-favourite: FSCO/I, pointing to a need for intelligently directed configuration. Designs like that come from sophisticated, highly logical and rational designers. where such rationality requires responsible freedom for it to be effective. It is not for nothing that in the OP you have largely ignored and trollishly distracted attention from, I pointed to the issue of necessary being founder of a world, and to the only serious candidate after centuries of debates. FYFI, a NB is going to be required in any possible world as it is a requisite of its framework. Stated for corrective record, not to feed trollishness. KFkairosfocus
April 22, 2017
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KF:
I must also note that your pretence in another thread that your above remarks tacked on to a faded thread were somehow willfully ignored, in order to pile on to a false accusation, does not speak well of your standards. G’day. KF
The fact that you continue to spread the falsehood that I made a false accusation certainly does not speak well of your standards. AJ Most people do not take kindly to being falsely accused of lying. Why do you think that it is OK for you to do so? Are you somehow special? Again, please point to the comment where you answered my question. If you can not, please apologize for falsely accusing me of lying. To remind you of my question, I will repeat it again:
Assuming that a world-root IS does not exist to ground OUGHT, what do you think the resulting world would look like?)
Armand Jacks
April 21, 2017
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CR, before saying anything else, I must note that just to post a comment here you implicitly relied on distinct identity, in order to communicate. Which should give you a clue. I must also note that your pretence in another thread that your above remarks tacked on to a faded thread were somehow willfully ignored, in order to pile on to a false accusation, does not speak well of your standards. G'day. KFkairosfocus
April 21, 2017
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Again, even if we assume we are somehow “under moral governance”, for the sake of argument, it’s unclear how this helps you in practice. When actually faced with a concrete moral problem, how have identified what part of your conscious is from this moral governance? How do you know you have interpreted it correctly in your current situation? You use human reasoning and criticism, that’s how. It always comes first. The parable of the ship pilot is an argument for why the philosopher-king should rule. I’m suggesting that’s the wrong question. All of our ideas start out containing errors because they start out as guesses. So, we should setup institutions that make it easy to remove bad ideas without violence. The argument that things will always become corrupt is based on the idea that we started out with some perfect knowledge in the first place. We never truly discover knowledge, we just “remember it”, because it was always there in some perfect form in the first place. That’s a philosophical view of knowledge, including moral knowledge. And that ignores the problem of having to identify and interpret knowledge. Even if you could somehow identify it was God that spoke to you, you’d need to figure out what he meant by that in the context of your specific moral problem. Directly revealing the truth into your brain using divine means leads to the the question of distinguishing what God divinely revealed from your own ideas. Nothing in your experience of that tells you which is which. Many people disagree about what God supposedly reveals to them in ways that are mutually exclusive, so some of them are mistaken. The problem of society becoming corrupt when it wasn’t before assumes that morality started out in some perfect state from which can only degrade. I’m suggesting that’s immoral because it implies that original state cannot be improved upon. It denies our ability to correct errors and make progress. From this principle of criticism, we can get to approximations of moral truth, such as the immorality of slavery, torturing children, etc. Note, I’m not saying we do not face a problem. Problems are inevitable, but solvable. Holding morality hostage is not the solution. From the podcast I referenced earlier…
Well, I see human history as a long period of complete failure—failure, that is, to make any progress. Now, our species has existed for (depending on where you count it from) maybe 50,000 years, maybe 100,000 to 200,000 years. But anyway, the vast majority of that time, people were alive, they were thinking, they were suffering, they wanted things. But nothing ever improved. The improvements that did happen happened so slowly that geologists can’t distinguish the difference between artifacts from one era to another with a resolution of 10,000 years. So from the point of view of a human lifetime, nothing ever improved, with generation upon generation upon generation of suffering and stasis. Then there was slow improvement, and then more-rapid improvement. Then there were several attempts to institutionalize a tradition of criticism, which I think is the key to rapid progress in the sense that we think of it: progress discernible on the timescale of a human lifetime, and also error correction so that regression is less likely. That happened several times and failed every time except once—in the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. So you ask what worries me. What worries me is that the inheritors of that little bit of solitary progress are only a small proportion of the population of the world today. It’s the culture or civilization that we call the West. Only the West really has a tradition of criticism, a bit institutionalized. And this has manifested itself in various problems, including the problem of failed cultures that see their failure writ large by comparison with the West, and therefore want to do something about this that doesn’t involve creativity. That is very, very dangerous. Then there’s the fact that in the West, what it takes to maintain our civilization is not widely known. In fact, as you’ve also said, the prevailing view among people in the West, including very educated people, is a picture of the relationship between knowledge, and progress, and civilization, and values that’s just wrong in so many different ways. So although the institutions of our culture are so amazingly good that they have been able to manage stability in the face of rapid change for hundreds of years, the knowledge of what it takes to keep civilization stable in the face of rapidly increasing knowledge is not very widespread. In fact, severe misconceptions about several aspects of it are common among political leaders, educated people, and society at large. We’re like people on a huge, well-designed submarine, which has all sorts of lifesaving devices built in, who don’t know they’re in a submarine. They think they’re in a motorboat, and they’re going to open all the hatches because they want to have a nicer view.
critical rationalist
April 8, 2017
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@KF,
[CR], I did not arbitrarily pick distinct identity from a field of candidates. The point is this is tied to a triple cluster self evident truth and grounds both communication and reasoning.
Actually, I said deciding that some ideas are immune from criticism, while others are not, is arbitrary. This is implied in the dichotomy of basic (self evident) beliefs that can play the role of a foundation for non-basic beliefs. However, it’s not arbitrary if we tentatively adopt hard to vary explanations that we currently have no good criticism of. Specifically, when I suggested that all ideas are subject to criticism, why did you selected identity as an example of a supposedly self-evident truth, as opposed to other possible candidates? It was an idea you tried to criticize, but came back with none. If it was immune to criticism, you would have no reason to have selected it as an example as opposed to other ideas. The fact that identity is a useful idea that plays a hard to vary role in all of our current, best explanations, including communication, is a criticism to the idea that the idea of identity is itself wrong. IOW, this is just more criticism. Again, not having a good criticism of an idea not the same as assuming it is immune to criticism, which is what is necessary to be a foundation of knowledge that plays a unilateral role.
But then, in our time, we have not been taught the significance of SETs, and may even have been taught to despise and dismiss them; e.g. the oh quantum objection that fails to reckon with how the objectors and the developers of the quantum theory had to implicitly rely on distinct identity starting with the proverbial scratch-marks on chalk boards; cf. here in the UD WACs. More sawing off of branches on which we must all sit. KF
Pointing out there are other epistemologies that lack the problems of foundationalism is the opposite of being ignorant or dogmatically predisposed to rejecting it. Nor do I think they are unimportant. IOW, I’m still waiting for you to show how variation and criticism, without a foundation, is incompatible with what you call self-evident truths. It’s not that I think they are unimportant, but since they are not actually immune to criticism, they cannot be a foundation in the sense that you are implying.critical rationalist
April 8, 2017
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AJ, I did not arbitrarily pick distinct identity from a field of candidates. The point is this is tied to a triple cluster self evident truth and grounds both communication and reasoning. Long ago now St Paul pointed out that even a bugle has to give distinct sounds so soldiers can be ready for battle. But then, in our time, we have not been taught the significance of SETs, and may even have been taught to despise and dismiss them; e.g. the oh quantum objection that fails to reckon with how the objectors and the developers of the quantum theory had to implicitly rely on distinct identity starting with the proverbial scratch-marks on chalk boards; cf. here in the UD WACs. More sawing off of branches on which we must all sit. KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2017
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AJ:
Phin: Less than 1% of abortions are performed in an attempt to save the mother’s life.
AJ: And less than 1% are conducted after the first trimester. Could there possibly be a link?
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that your numbers are close to being correct. Since we are talking about possible homicides, shouldn't we be working hard to know whether there is a link or what exactly it is? Where the numbers don't line up, we should be charging women with murder, right?Phinehas
April 3, 2017
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KF:
Phinehas (attn AJ), see how seared — as with a hot iron — and so how soberingly benumbed our consciences have become? How else are we ever so willing to ponder willfully imposed death of the innocent (whom we dehumanise) as a solution to personal, social and economic problems.
Indeed. We are willing to ponder it for one reason only: We want sex to somehow be freed from the responsibility of parenthood. But instead of the kind of freedom bought through self-sacrifice that we enjoy in our everyday lives, we look to purchase this sexual freedom through the blood of innocents. God have mercy on us all.Phinehas
April 3, 2017
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AJ:
Phin: Why would it be a crime if the fetus had no rights?
AJ: Where did I say that the fetus had no rights?
Great! So we agree that abortions after the first trimester are a crime and that the fetus has rights. But then you stopped answering the questions right where it got interesting. Why?
Phin: What right does the fetus possess that makes abortion a crime? What kind of crime are we talking about here if not deliberate homicide?
Care to answer?Phinehas
April 3, 2017
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@KF.
Start with: distinct identity is a SET, that to object to requires you to use language and symbols that are based on said distinct identity. You just wrote a text in English, using ASCII code or the like, all of which critically relies on distinct identity, the start-point and pivot of the first principles of right reason.
Still not incompatible, as identity plays a fundamental, hard to vary role in all of our current, best explanations. Yet it is still not immune to criticism. Again, the very process by which you picked identity from all other possible candidates is that you tried to criticize it and came back with none. So, you're a fallibilist, even though you don't realize it. IOW, being immune to criticism and currently having no good criticism is not the same thing. In respect to the law of identity via induction, from an earlier comment...
If we define “grue” as being green until the year 2100, at which time it become blue, observations support emeralds being both green and grue according to all possible tests we can possibly apply. There is no way to distingue between them. Rather identify in the case of emeralds is based on explanations and theories, such as optics, etc. So, we’re back to conjectural knowledge.
So, I'll ask again: how is variation and criticism, in the absence of a foundation, incompatible with what you call self-evident truths?critical rationalist
April 3, 2017
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