Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
WJM @ 18: Well done!Truth Will Set You Free
March 19, 2017
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rvb8 @13
I agree murder and theft should be reduced as much as possible by law and punishment. I agree abortions should be reduced as much as possible too; but not by laws, and certainly not by punishment; as no crime has been committed.
This is twisted logic. A crime is only committed when a law is violated. Is murder a crime outside of law? Or are you arguing that murder is objectively evil and that abortion is objectively benign?
I’ll go with very early, academic schooling in the human reproductive process; organs, functions, cycles, prevention of disease, protection from unwanted pregnancies, condoms their use etc, from at least the age of five.
Comparable to anger management and ethics courses to prevent kindergartners from growing up to be murderers. Does this mean that we make attempts to "soften" murder while trying to prevent it with education? There is no moral conviction here, but that would be consistent with nihilism. Whatever "works."
When we were hunter gatherers, sex was an open book, religion came along and made it disgusting and a sin outside wedlock; now that is sick and peverse.
The usual Darwinist rhetoric depicting the evils of religion and making striking moral judgments about how someone chooses to view sexuality. By which standard is this sick or perverse? Your own? Should I care what other humans think? Why or why not?
There is no argument as to what humanity is, at least not in modern law. The child at birth is considered human. We can argue over the first three months, or is a fertalized egg human, or are late term abortions murder, but the plain fact is the law says it is when the child enters this world, and not before.
If the law were an ultimate authority here, this would suffice to end the conversation. I am not unaware of the legal system's current perspective. Yes, the law has allowed baby killing until the point at which the baby in question has emerged from his/her mother. It's sick and perverse, if I may make a moral judgment here.
WJM has suggested the pro-abortion (I loathe pussy footing around names, pro-choice is so feeble), side is over emotional and not rational. I’m not emotional on this topic as I am on the side that has won, and am supported by the law, which says, ‘sorry the unborn fetus is not human, yet!’
Essentially, you have said that your position could not possibly be emotional, because you have "won." Then you state the position of the law with an exclamation point, to add to what clear satisfaction you draw from your agreement with it. Nothing here has anything to do with your position's rationality. I'm not sure how this was supposed to demonstrate that you aren't being emotional; it reads like a celebration of triumph.
Feel free to argue against that, as I’m sure you will, just keep your emotions in check, they let your side down every time.
Well, you don't seem upset here, but you're definitely speaking with plainly emotive language. A tone of incredulity that anyone would oppose your position runs throughout, that and a solemn homage to your evolutionary ancestors' tribal, bestial attitudes toward sex. Are you the sort of person that foregoes his own advice? I'd prefer less storytime about noble caveman sex, less striking moral judgment, less jumping up and down in victory, and more plain rationality, please. It might suffice to simply demonstrate the underlying evil of murder, i.e. why murder is "wrong." I would like to know the material basis for such a judgment. From there, you can demonstrate that abortion isn't murder and you'll have "won." You do seem to like winning, after all.JoshRob
March 19, 2017
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AJ: This is not reduction ad absurdum. JS01 is correct. An abortion is a premeditated act. Therefore, if a fetus from conception on is entitled to full human rights then any woman who is found to have aborted a fetus must be charged with first degree murder. There can be no exception. She will either be acquitted, found guilty or found not guilty by reason of insanity. There are no other options. Her state of mind can be used to mitigate sentencing but in the US there are mandatory minimums. If found guilty, the best she can hope for is 25 years. Don't be hysterical. Use your mind.PaV
March 19, 2017
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"This is not reduction ad absurdum. JS01 is correct. An abortion is a premeditated act. Therefore, if a fetus from conception on is entitled to full human rights then any woman who is found to have aborted a fetus must be charged with first degree murder." Ridiculous and just plain dumb. First, your straw man. No is arguing that an unborn baby is entitled to full human rights (they can't vote or Democrats would all of a sudden be pro-life) but not being entitled to full adult human rights, should not mean that they are not entitled to the most basic and fundamental human right -- to not be deprived of life without due process of law (which happens by the way to be spelled out in the body of the Constitution -- not the nebulous "penumbras" where the right to kill an innocent human being was conveniently found. If a human being is not entitled to the right to not be killed, what other right matters? If they are not entitled to not be killed unjustly, why do you suppose you are entitled to that right? Secondly, murder is not always first degree murder and certainly a woman in fear of any number of things due to an unwanted pregnancy has extenuating circumstances and may not be committing first degree murder under our current court system. To the point of the OP, we have lost the ability to reason.Florabama
March 19, 2017
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PaV:
Someone kills another person. Was it self-defense? Premeditated? Accidental? Hate-filled? Foreseen, but not prevented? The list can go on. Objectively, the termination of life is killing, but the circumstances dictate how it’s viewed. No reductio ad absurdum, please.
This is not reduction ad absurdum. JS01 is correct. An abortion is a premeditated act. Therefore, if a fetus from conception on is entitled to full human rights then any woman who is found to have aborted a fetus must be charged with first degree murder. There can be no exception. She will either be acquitted, found guilty or found not guilty by reason of insanity. There are no other options. Her state of mind can be used to mitigate sentencing but in the US there are mandatory minimums. If found guilty, the best she can hope for is 25 years. And what do you do about all of the women who had abortions when they were legal? If the right to life is an objective human right, as many here assert, it was also an objective human right when abortion was legal and all of these women and doctors would have to be rounded up and charged. And if guilty, 25 years minimum or execution depending on the state. And before you claim that I am being absurd, that is the argument that was and continues to be used against those responsible for the holocaust (Crimes against humanity). If abortion is a holocaust then it is a crime against humanity. Since KF and WM insist that abortion is a holocaust even worse than the Nazi holocaust, then they must also be in favour of the jailing and execution of the thousands of women who had legal abortions. And any politician that voted in favour of current abortion laws. And the judges that ruled on Roe v Wade. You can't have one without the other.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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PaV:
AJ: It’s easy to talk about abortion in the abstract, but when we begin to talk of specific, individual lives, it’s a bit different.
No, I would argue that it is orders of magnitude more difficult.
So, I’ll ask you this, instead: Would you have been willing to give Albert Einstein’s mother the “choice” of having, or not having, her child in the womb?
I would be willing to allow her to abort it in the first trimester. But I would prefer she didn't. As I would prefer that no women would would opt for abortion.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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KF:
As we look around now, our state is one of peril, demographic collapse, indebtedness to a horrific level, gross miseducation, mobs roaming the streets, laws twisted this way and that to suit power agendas, and more. With a holocaust of posterity eating out our souls and minds with blood guilt.
Yet your doomsaying ignores the facts on the ground. Violent crimes have declined dramatically. Legal abortions have dropped dramatically. Even to the point they are now as low or lower than the abortion rates before Roe v Wade. And there are hundreds of other examples of how our lives are better now than they were a few decades ago. I understand that you see secularization of society as a negative. But, unfortunately for you, that sentiment is an ever decreasing one.
See, if you can provide a sound answer to this and to the far more elaborate forms of the core concern here.
His argument boils down to, 'I don't understand how the brain works so it can't be the result of material processes''. Lack of understanding is not proof of anything other than a lack of understanding. But, what we do know is that we can alter the state and nature of the mind by purely material means. That is not proof the mind is the result of purely material causes, but it is a very strong and sound logical inference. Much more logically sound than inferring that it must be non material. Even the latest research on quantum effects and the mind is still a physical effect.
Again, see if you have a cogent reply that leads to a world-root IS capable of grounding OUGHT as more than might and manipulation make ‘right’ i/l/o evolutionary materialism or its fellow travellers.
You are pre-supposing that there must be a world-root IS capable of grounding OUGHT. As such, your reasoning is circular. The more appropriate way to examine this issue is to propose two scenarios: 1) a world-root IS exists that is capable of grounding OUGHT. 2) a world-root IS does not exist that is capable of grounding OUGHT. Now, given these two options, examine human civilizations today and throughout recorded history and assess which of these options best fits the data. It would be impossible to conclude that option one is the best fit unless you impose so many required assumptions on the option such that it is indistinguishable from option two. Your insistence on the existence of objective morality, absolute moral truths, etc. is that you are afraid of the implications and possible consequences of them not existing. frankly, they scare me too. But being afraid of something is not going to make it go away. But humans have one big advantage in this scary game. We have the capability of rational thought, abstract reasoning and intuiting and predicting possible consequences if our actions. It is certainly not perfect but it has allowed an otherwise fragile and poorly equipped animal to become the arguably dominant organism on this planet.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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Maybe Armand or rvb8 or any pro-abort out there reading can answer this question: What's the difference between an abortionist doctor and a bird egg smasher? Andrewasauber
March 19, 2017
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AJ, This thread is about the deplorable nature of modern debate and how it has moved from a rational, logical nature to rhetoric. Let's look at what you have presented us.
But seriously, I presented sound and concrete steps that have been demonstrated to seriously reduce the abortion rates.
You and I both know you did nothing of the sort; you presented argument that at best would show a correlation between those steps and reduced abortion rates. Logically, we know that correlation is not evidence of causation - yet here you are strongly reiterating this correlation as if it demonstrated causation. Further, it was pointed out to you that even if we accepted that correlation as causation, it has nothing to do with the actual issue we are arguing about - yet, you once again repeat this same claim as if it addresses what the argument is actually about. This is one aspect of what I'm talking about in the OP.
Yet all that you and fellow travellers centre on is the fact that I am not in favour of making early stage abortions illegal.
No. We're focusing on more weighty matters than your personal views on the matter. When we first started going into the abortion debate on KF's agit-prop thread, I said this to you: "I understand that as an atheist with little or no spiritual comprehension or framework you might think the phrase “Pro-Life” is entirely about saving the lives of the children and that this is what drives your false equivalence and profound misunderstanding about what “pro-life” is really all about. It’s not even mostly about “saving the children” (because their souls will be just fine), it’s about saving the soul of civilization and preventing it from anti-life, nihilistic moral subjectivism and cultural self-annihilation." ... yet here you are, still trying to make the main issue one of "reducing the number of abortions", still arguing as if the Pro-Life argument is entirely or mainly about reducing the number of abortions, and even bringing that mypoic, errant issue of yours into a thread about the deplorable nature of modern debate.
And I provided scientifically and sociologicaly supported rational for that opinion.
You can find scientific and sociological support for virtually any opinion. So? This is what I meant in the OP about referring to arbitrary, factual points of reference to support your personal, subjective feeling about abortion. If I personally, subjectively feel like I should be able to abort my children up to 18 years old, I can find all sorts of science and sociology to support that feeling - such as their incapacity to take care of themselves, their financial and emotional burden (if they aren't behaving), their potential for causing me harm (both physical and legal), etc. All of that would be scientifically and sociologically true, and it would all support my personal, subjective feeling. This is the big nothingburger of your and RVB8's position; your methodology can be used to justify just about any position morally and legally - including rounding up everyone that doesn't meet some arbitrary set of standards and aborting them.
There was absolutely no support for my approach to significantly reduce the abortion rate other than a very vague comment from someone saying that they weren’t opposed to sex education.
I said: "I’m not against the availability of most contraceptives nor am I against proper sex education." However, you're apparently immune to the fact that your approach is entirely irrelevant to the issues being debated. You seem to think that the debate is about reducing the number of abortions. That's not what the debate is about.
Before Roe v Wade, the rates of illegal abortion were as high as they are now. And, because access was harder to get, they were often at much later stages of pregnancy.
Are you so enamored of these statements that you will continue to use them no matter what the debate is actually about? Do you even understand what this thread is about? Again - the deplorable state of modern debate.
The debate has never been about when human life begin. It is about human rights.
Actually, the abortion debate is about a specific right - the right to life. So, when human life begins is actually a necessary aspect of that debate. Let's note how you now attempt to draw yet another false equivalence that specific right and other human rights.
The fact is, our rights have always been age and ability defined. The rights of children, although extensive, are not as extensive as those of adults. The rights of people with severe mental disabilities are often severely restricted.
Are you really trying to draw an equivalence between terminating an innocent human life, and restricting the freedom of people either for their own safety or for the safety of others? Is that really the road you want to drive down? Because if it is, you've just made the argument for terminating all sorts of people. Why? Because killing humans and restricting their freedoms are - according to this argument - equivalent. Cue chorus: Deplorable condition of modern debate.
If a fetus’ right to life is equal to that of an adult, or a child, why are pregnant women not isolated unmediated after conception and prevented from doing anything that might be potentially harmful to the fetus.
I imagine the same reason we don't isolate any child, elderly, disabled or sick person from their caregivers or guardians. We don't interfere in the lives of people based on their brute physical or situational capacity to harm others. Our legal system, you know, likes to wait until an actual crime has been committed or, at least, there is evidence someone is about to commit a crime. You should really think through the logical ramifications of an objection or point before you post - but, that's another problem with modern debate; people just say whatever pops in their head without really thinking it through because it feels valid to them.
Why are they allowed to fly where they are exposed to higher radiation levels? Why are pregnant women who smoke and drink and eat junk food not locked up until after birth? The answer is obvious.
Yes, it is. None of those things are a crime whether they are done to a fetus or to a child or to anyone else. They may not be advisable or healthy, but they're not crimes. The only crimes here are your crimes against rational discourse and logic.
I am anti criminalization of it. They are not the same thing. i am in favour of not allowing abortions after the first trimester based on scientific grounds and our knowledge of embryonic development. So, yes, I believe that an embyo’s rights increase with pregnancy stage. To the point that it is my opinion that once the fetus is viable that it has the same rights as a child.
Well, unless you can point to something other than "I believe" or "I feel", the same principle of "I believe" and "I feel" as a basis of deciding where the right to life applies and and does not apply can be used to justify killing any group - including genocide. This is one of the problems with modern debate; people like AJ and RVB8 think that as long as their position is widely held and/or supported by law, then it is a rational belief. So they keep spouting off the same statements over and over as if those statements represent a sound, logical argument when in fact they really don't boil down to anything other than expressions of how they feel.
In everything I have written, I have been consistent and supported my rationale.
"Supporting your rationale" is not the same as "rationally supporting my position". If it was, you wouldn't keep claiming that correspondence = causality. Also, "supporting your rationale" doesn't necessarily mean you are even addressing the salient points of those you are debating against.
Yet, I get rediculous responses like, support your assertion that a person with no brain can be conscious or alive.
I can see how "supporting your assertion" would be problematic for one who has no idea how to carry on a rational debate.William J Murray
March 19, 2017
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Nothing could have made WJM's point better than the responses on this thread. It is both fascinating and painfully sad to watch materialists run away from science and contort basic logic on a regular basis on these pages. Human life begins at conception. That is a scientific, biological fact, far more certain than anything in the Darwinian creation myth that they routinely call "fact." The absolute fact of the humanity of the unborn child, is why the "death for profit" crowd has always tried to center the debate around the subjective and ill defined term, "person," at least until it became clear that they really didn't care if the baby in the womb was a person or human. They just want sex without consequences and if that meant chopping up innocent little babies and flushing them down the drain, then so be it. The Darwinist Nazi parallels are unmistakable and the materialists don't even recognize it. The exact same Darwinistic argument were made to justify chattel slavery. The Black man was sub-human therefore he could be kidnapped and put in chains. The unborn baby is sub-human therefore the scalpel. The pro-abortion crowd is just the pro-slavery crowd in modern clothes. When materialists dispute that human life begins when an ovum is fertilized, it reveals either ignorance of science, or as has been made woefully clear on these pages, a willingness to ignore the science when it conflicts with materialistic ideology. Of course, this consistent tendency, to ignore science when it conflicts with ideology, puts the lie to the materialists claim of a high view of science. Science for them is just a tool to be brought out when needed and ignored when not -- consistency be damned. When a DarwiNazi says an unborn baby is not human, therefore I am justified in directing it without anesthesia while it writhes in pain, I always ask, what species is it then, and can I do that to sea turtles who are messing up my sunbathing, which usually draws invective or deflection or both, which is to WJM's point. Our culture has devolved to the point that logic and reason, the supposedly highest ideals of humanism, have been lost to an entire generation, perhaps never to be regained again in American culture. Thank you Charles Darwin.Florabama
March 19, 2017
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I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning
WJM, Indeed. I've been attempting to dialog with pro-aborts for close to 3 decades. The segment of them who are religiously devoted to aborting innocent humans won't accept any idea that opposes their beliefs. They are mindwashed children of the machine. Andrewasauber
March 19, 2017
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jstanley01: Someone kills another person. Was it self-defense? Premeditated? Accidental? Hate-filled? Foreseen, but not prevented? The list can go on. Objectively, the termination of life is killing, but the circumstances dictate how it's viewed. No reductio ad absurdum, please.PaV
March 19, 2017
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If human life begins at conception, making abortion murder, then every woman who aborts a pregnancy -- whether by a morning-after pill or by a partial-birth abortion at full term -- qualifies for the same legal consideration as Andrea Yates: Either she is a murderer or she is criminally insane. Given the premise, there is no rational third alternative possible at law. Are you sure you want to go there? And if not, why not?jstanley01
March 19, 2017
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I agree murder and theft should be reduced as much as possible by law and punishment. I agree abortions should be reduced as much as possible too; but not by laws, and certainly not by punishment; as no crime has been committed. I'll go with very early, academic schooling in the human reproductive process; organs, functions, cycles, prevention of disease, protection from unwanted pregnancies, condoms their use etc, from at least the age of five. When we were hunter gatherers, sex was an open book, religion came along and made it disgusting and a sin outside wedlock; now that is sick and peverse. There is no argument as to what humanity is, at least not in modern law. The child at birth is considered human. We can argue over the first three months, or is a fertalized egg human, or are late term abortions murder, but the plain fact is the law says it is when the child enters this world, and not before. I agree with that position, as does the legal system in my country. I realize it differs from state to state in the States, but they largely agrees with this defintion as well. WJM has suggested the pro-abortion (I loathe pussy footing around names, pro-choice is so feeble), side is over emotional and not rational. I'm not emotional on this topic as I am on the side that has won, and am supported by the law, which says, 'sorry the unborn fetus is not human, yet!' That being the case, and it is, it does not have human rights.' That makes perfect sense to me, and thankfully to the majority of politicians in my country. Feel free to argue against that, as I'm sure you will, just keep your emotions in check, they let your side down every time.rvb8
March 18, 2017
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rvb8, Here, too, a bit of reality: murder and theft are a part of human society, and human culture, as long as there has been human society and human culture. We still take the apparently "absurd" position of trying to outlaw it. Why? Certainly not because it effectively eliminates murder and theft. A possible answer: the victim in such cases can fight back. Abortion victims are helpless. And they are not like some comatose person never to wake again, no. They are, rather, soon to wake for the first time. Their inevitable life is ended to sate emotional need or for convenience's sake, without any hesitation about morality. It must be "right" because a large enough group of people say so. Of course, that stands to reason if morality is honestly just some coincidental heuristic planted by instinct in the human mind. It would seem, from that standpoint, that the only "right" is "emotional, subjective feelings," which would mean "rational, clear thinking" about morality would perfectly intersect with such emotions. Morality would amount to making as many people as comfortable as possible, regardless of the means. The most rational position would be that which emotionally satisfies the majority. Emotional satisfaction is, unfortunately and all too frequently, achieved through self-excusing and impulsive decision, not by rational thought. By making one a synonym for the other, one can make an emotional claim while sincerely believing he is making a rational one. Emotions are the only purpose a nihilist can serve. If there is such a thing as the objective sanctity of human life, then it follows that we should do our utmost to respect anything which even appears to be a human life. Endless argument about what constitutes humanity stems from the need to have one's apathy about human life accepted by those who respect human life. If we can all agree that the victim is not human, it becomes emotionally acceptable across the board. This is the essence of pro-abortion. Why else is there a need to argue the inhumanity of the fetus? Emotional satisfaction is the ultimate "good" being served here.JoshRob
March 18, 2017
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WJM, as for emotive debate on the abortion issue I point you to Kairos and his 800 or 500 million 'murderd', and the ongoing 'holocaust'. Is that emotive and deranged enough for you? As to Trump. Well, I am not an American and I was truly surprised by hus election, as I believe were most Americans. I can't stand Hillary, and her 'snowflake' entourage, and feel that out of two woeful choices America chose the dumbest. But my opinion is not the unthinking hatred you appear to be characterising. As to abortion? Here is the reality. It is part of human society, and human culture, a long as there has been human society and human culture. The absurd position of trying to outlaw it, is right up there with the absurd position of trying to legislate a person's sexuality. Although I loath some on my side (liberal universities in the US and UK are spitting out the most thin skinned children ever), they are right whn they say, 'get the hell out of my bedroom, family, and life!' The most poisonous, obnoxious invective on this topic is largely restricted to Christian zealots. I remember clearly going with my girlfriend's girlfriend to a free clinic in Auckland so that she, a 16 year old at the time, could get an abortion. I spent most of the previous evening talking her and my girlfriend into the abortion. They said we'll put it up for adoption. I said it will just be a constant pull on your emotions, start again. The women in question, now with their own families never cease to thank me. My advice to all girls in the same predicament remains the same. Thankfully most girls follow this logic without having to be told the obvious consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. WJM, It appears the election of Trump has given a boost to leftwing parties in Europe. They have looked across the pond and collectively said, 'errr, no thanks!' They, 'emotional, subjective feelings'; We, 'rational, clear thinking.' Heh:) Good one!rvb8
March 18, 2017
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Who can say how history and science would change if Einstein had been aborted? This might be engaging in the same sort of dry pragmatism that supports the pro-abortion stance. Ultimately, whether Einstein or an unremarkable man in a nameless village somewhere, no unborn child should be aborted on principle, not because abortion is inconvenient or inefficient. If we were discussing the lives of 5-yr-old children, I should hope no one here would argue in favor of legal euthanasia for kindergartners simply because their society was already hellbent on killing them. Might as well make it safer, right? No, not right. When something is abhorrently evil, it must be opposed. The truth is, I've spent all my life being desensitized to abortion, and I'm not sure what I can effect, personally, to change it. It is quiet murder protected as a matter of "women's rights" or "healthcare." But then again, this evalutation comes from objective morality, instead of subjective morality (or self-righteousness). Self-righteousness and self-importance are proliferating, because a relativistic, atheistic world necessarily rules out any objective righteousness or objective importance. Essentially, such a world produces two sorts of person: the honest nihilist that disavows all pretense of meaning or virtue in the world, or the deluded nihilist that endlessly presents flowery arguments about "meaning" and "progress" derived from a strange sort of misanthropic humanism that simultaneously shrugs at human exceptionalism and exalts human wisdom.JoshRob
March 18, 2017
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WMJ,
... what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.
Trump, in promising to appoint Supreme Court justices who will reverse Roe vs. Wade, has connected himself to the abortion issue. I think you are seeing two manifestations of the same phenomenon. The apoplectic seizures some people immediately have at the mention of Trump or the abortion issue are a reaction to the same thing: a challenge to an evil they have wholeheartedly embraced. Deep down they know "legal" child killing is an evil rooted in lethal, buffoonish bigotry. They have willfully embraced the diabolical evil of our times and react to any serious challenge to their doing so almost with the attitude of the demons towards Christ:
And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”
That is to say, they react with inflammatory, highly emotional and irrational rhetoric. The truly ignorant and deceived would just ask questions, learn about the issue and be changed. I have seen it happen many, many times. Those committed to the evil -- and know deep down that it is evil -- are the ones who become impossible to communicate with and "dangerous to society."harry
March 18, 2017
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AJ: It's easy to talk about abortion in the abstract, but when we begin to talk of specific, individual lives, it's a bit different. So, I'll ask you this, instead: Would you have been willing to give Albert Einstein's mother the "choice" of having, or not having, her child in the womb?PaV
March 18, 2017
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PaV:
Do you think this was also true of your mother?
I have no idea. She is dead so I can't ask her. Why do you ask? But she chain smoked all through her pregnancies if that means anything.Armand Jacks
March 18, 2017
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WJM, Your post made me think of Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss. Experts at interruption, invective, and rudeness. Mere novices at actual debate.Truth Will Set You Free
March 18, 2017
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PPPS: Heine's prophetic warning to Germany c 1830 -- yes, over a hundred years before the holocaust and decades before what was done in Namibia and in Belgium etc -- will also be well worth pondering:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [--> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]
Where, before you brush this aside, note Provine:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
kairosfocus
March 18, 2017
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AJ, It seems I need to pause and point you to exactly why I have long held that our civilisation is following a march of folly to ruin, one that if we do not turn from, will take its due effect. Democracy, historically is an unstable form of government and has a history of telling failures, with Athens and the Peloponnesian war as case study number 1. So much is this the case that the US founders and framers carefully distinguished their work and their intent from democracy. There are democratic elements but they carefully erected many stabilising buttresses, and plainly stated that the character of a people was absolutely critical. And on the whole they made it plain that the Judaeo-Christian, scriptural, gospel-based tradition was a linch-pin to the system. In time, the success of that experiment made "democracy" popular, even as across the world the underpinnings of a sober culture were being undermined. Often, by evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers, dressed up in the lab coat. That snowball has now reached avalanche proportions and our civilisation is in collapse on many fronts, showing the sort of manipulated march of folly I discussed here. (Which has been pointed out to you, but which in haste to form turnabout projections, to snip remarks out of context, to sneer, to dismiss and to otherwise push your rhetorical talking points, you have plainly paid not the slightest heed.) As we look around now, our state is one of peril, demographic collapse, indebtedness to a horrific level, gross miseducation, mobs roaming the streets, laws twisted this way and that to suit power agendas, and more. With a holocaust of posterity eating out our souls and minds with blood guilt. Meanwhile, geostrategic perils stare us in the face which we refuse to heed. We are in a state that reminds me all too much of Horne's summary of France across the twenty years leading up to May 10, 1940. You may not like to hear such words or may hate the concept that our civilisation is marching off a cliff, but that does not mean that such a view is merely empty noise to be used in turnabout accusation rhetoric. Indeed, you have managed to substantiate why WJM's OP is very timely. KF PS: On the self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism, I start with this from J B S Haldane, a co-founder of the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis, at the turn of the 1930's:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]
--> See, if you can provide a sound answer to this and to the far more elaborate forms of the core concern here. PPS: On the inherent amorality and utterly ruinous nature of such thought, I again point you to Plato, who wrote in the aftermath of the collapse of Athens:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X 2,350+ ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
--> Again, see if you have a cogent reply that leads to a world-root IS capable of grounding OUGHT as more than might and manipulation make 'right' i/l/o evolutionary materialism or its fellow travellers.kairosfocus
March 18, 2017
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Armand Jack:
If a fetus’ right to life is equal to that of an adult, or a child, why are pregnant women not isolated unmediated after conception and prevented from doing anything that might be potentially harmful to the fetus. Why are they allowed to fly where they are exposed to higher radiation levels? Why are pregnant women who smoke and drink and eat junk food not locked up until after birth? The answer is obvious. The fetus’s right to life is and never has been greater than many of the rights of the pregnant woman.
To quote WJM: "This is the woeful state of modern debate."
So, yes, I believe that an embyo’s rights increase with pregnancy stage. To the point that it is my opinion that once the fetus is viable that it has the same rights as a child.
Do you think this was also true of your mother? The heart begins beating in the human embryo at 5 weeks---about the time that a mother realizes for the first time that she's pregnant. What about that?PaV
March 18, 2017
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WJM, Strong words, but sobering ones providing food for thought (whether or not one agrees with every jot and tittle). We need to go back to first principles of right reason and to sound history, and build from that but too many have been conditioned not to respond to such. That's a sad pass, but I fear it is exactly what those who have dominated key media and educational institutions have long aimed for. Again, all of this points to the need for reformation. I fear, we will need to go over the cliff for enough pain to be there that a critical mass for reform can have good effect. The cost will be horrific, perhaps fatal to our civilisation in its current relatively free form. Those who take liberty and turn it into licence will lose their freedom. That is what I can see ahead, and that hurts too deeply for words. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2017
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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.
In this, I absolutely agree with your astute observation. If you will permit, here are a few of the more obvious examples of this:
March of folly to ruin.
We are at the crumbling edge of a terrible cliff here.
Our civilisation is heading over a cliff
Can we turn back from this crumbling edge of a cliff before it is too late?
This entails that conscience-guided reason is pervaded by grand delusion and lands you in the infinite regress of Plato’s Cave worlds.
Then, you miss the readily demonstrated points that such is both self-falsifying through self-referential incoherence and has long been known to be utterly amoral, thus a gateway to nihilism.
Sorry. The devil made me do it. But seriously, I presented sound and concrete steps that have been demonstrated to seriously reduce the abortion rates. Yet all that you and fellow travellers centre on is the fact that I am not in favour of making early stage abortions illegal. And I provided scientifically and sociologicaly supported rational for that opinion. There was absolutely no support for my approach to significantly reduce the abortion rate other than a very vague comment from someone saying that they weren't opposed to sex education. Before Roe v Wade, the rates of illegal abortion were as high as they are now. And, because access was harder to get, they were often at much later stages of pregnancy. The debate has never been about when human life begin. It is about human rights. The fact is, our rights have always been age and ability defined. The rights of children, although extensive, are not as extensive as those of adults. The rights of people with severe mental disabilities are often severely restricted. If a fetus' right to life is equal to that of an adult, or a child, why are pregnant women not isolated unmediated after conception and prevented from doing anything that might be potentially harmful to the fetus. Why are they allowed to fly where they are exposed to higher radiation levels? Why are pregnant women who smoke and drink and eat junk food not locked up until after birth? The answer is obvious. The fetus's right to life is and never has been greater than many of the rights of the pregnant woman. WM talks about the use of emotionally laden rhetoric. And this is definitely more prevalent in the abortion debate, for obvious reason. It is an emotionally difficult decision. And the emotions abound on both sides. But I have tried to provide comments that are as emotionally neutral as possible so that the debate can be about the facts. However, the response to this is often even more emotional. I am not pro abortion. I am anti criminalization of it. They are not the same thing. i am in favour of not allowing abortions after the first trimester based on scientific grounds and our knowledge of embryonic development. So, yes, I believe that an embyo's rights increase with pregnancy stage. To the point that it is my opinion that once the fetus is viable that it has the same rights as a child. In everything I have written, I have been consistent and supported my rationale. Yet, I get rediculous responses like, support your assertion that a person with no brain can be conscious or alive. If that is an example of the logic supporting your side, you will never be successful in your goal of making criminals of all women seeking abortion. (See, that is an example of emotionally laden rhetoric).Armand Jacks
March 18, 2017
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