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The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
KF: "TA, such a commission would not over-ride laws of any country but would be a way forward on truth and facing what was done. Most of the folks you mention would be to answer before t/he panel, not sitting on it. Essentially every public figure for the past generation has much to answer for. KF" OK, such a commission would not actually have members, and can't tell any country what to do. Which raises the question: How could such a thing ever make a decision? What would be the point of such a thing?timothya
March 20, 2017
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WJM, I have likewise avoided using a legally specific term, but have focussed on the moral issue of the shedding of innocent blood. I have also pointed out the material circumstance of a civilisation gone insane and drawn attention to a very sobering historical parallel, the slave trade. Just for one pointer, the survivors of the middle passage in C18 reportedly had a life expectancy in some territories of about five years. That is on top of horrific death rates in Africa and in the passage. The trade whether trans-Atlantic or trans-Saharan, was of genocidal character. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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TA, such a commission would not over-ride laws of any country but would be a way forward on truth and facing what was done. Most of the folks you mention would be to answer before the panel, not sitting on it. Essentially every public figure for the past generation has much to answer for. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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Armand Jacks said:
All I am trying to do is point out the inconsistency between the assertion that all stages of human life, from conception to natural death, have an equal right to life, and the reluctance by the very same people to state that all women who seek and have an abortion should be charged with first degree murder.
RVB8 said:
AJs logic is unarguable; where do you stand? Actually I know where you, Kairos, WJM, and others here stand, they say the fetus is a person, and abortion is murder.
Oh, the deplorable state of debate! First, WJM never claimed that abortion = murder. I only ever stated that abortion = the deliberate killing of an innocent human life. I may differ from other opinions here because from my perspective "murder" is a legal term, so current abortion is not "murder". Second, both AJ and RVB8 are making an elementary logical mistake by insisting that if two people have an equal right to life, then killing one or the other must result in an equal criminal charge. This is simply not true. The circumstances of the crime can call for varying charges. While the charge would certainly fall in the category of "homicide", there are many different types of "homicide" that generate different criminal charges. It is therefore a logical mistake to insist that pro-lifers must all be in favor of bringing capital murder charges against either the doctor or the woman or else they are being inconsistent. A pro-lifer might advocate that they should be charged with a different type of homicide - perhaps one created specifically for abortions - that does not carry the same penalty provisions as capital murder. That doesn't mean anyone is making a de facto admission that the unborn have a lesser right to life than anyone else; it just means that this category of homicide carries with it its own unique charge and set of penalties. I would be in favor of a set of anti-abortion laws that provide for care, services and workplace protections of pregnant women who do not wish to keep their child and which delivered that child into a vetted adoption process, making "having the baby" instead of aborting it as safe and as non-problematic (financially) as possible. This could work with current adoption systems that provide extensive financial and logistics support for mothers that will carry their baby to term for the adoption process. In that environment, I would set penalties for pre-birth infanticide at a term of 5 years probation for the doctor and loss of medical license, repeat offenses ending up in prison time, and a loss of reproductive rights for the mother. I'm open to discussion and changing my mind on any of those penalties, but the point in me putting it out there is to show the foolishness of AJ's and RVB8's irrational argument. They first insist that Pro-Lifers must be in favor of an extreme position, and then irrationally insist that if they are not, they are being inconsistent, when there is no factual or logical basis for that claim. It's all invented, emotion-based, irrational rhetoric.William J Murray
March 20, 2017
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And, by the way, would this "Truth and Reconciliation Commission" that you propose be able to over-ride the laws of any particular country? Montserrat, for example?timothya
March 20, 2017
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KF: "One step of the current process is that we are going to eventually need an international truth and reconciliation commission on the mass abortion civilisational kulturkampf, which should be associated with tribunals capable of censure and recommendation of loss of credibility for cases of gross ethical violations of the same natural laws that answered to the defendant’s claims to be acting under lawful orders at Nuremburg." OK, great idea, let's suggest a list of potential members: Noam Chomsky Gloria Steinem Daniel Dennett Tracey Enim Salman Rushdie Bassem Youssef Malala Yousafzai Pete Singer Kathleen Petyarre Richard Dawkinstimothya
March 20, 2017
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WJM, I think the 1st para in the just clipped review speaks tellingly to the theme of this thread:
Evidence and Inquiry, Towards Reconstruction in Epistemology, by Susan Haack, is the kind of book that is sorely needed in an age when principles of scepticism and the rejection of the possibility of knowledge have become all but truisms to many people, both inside philosophy and outside. Indeed, one might even say that the “standard analysis” of knowledge is no longer something like “justified true belief” but instead “the construction of power relations.” This would mean that the quest for knowledge is over. All has become a quest for power, which is then, when acquired, to be used to express one’s race/class/gender consciousness. This dismal recipe for solipsism and tyranny seems to be the heritage of a generation that was educated on radical politics, with great care and expense, in an era before the fall of communism and the general failure of Marxism as either science, history, politics, or economics posed any kind of cognitive problem for academic anti-anti-communists. Utopian indoctrination took hold upon those who didn’t have to face the consequences of Utopianism in practice and who are now insensible or unconcerned to learn the truth. Neither philosophy or English departments are the kinds of places where evidence contrary to a self-contained ideology is likely to be encountered just along the way . . .
There will be a terrible price to pay for that folly. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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JR, thanks. I suggest that many would profit by taking up the point made early in Plato's The Laws, Bk X: who is pressing hard upon us, it is advisable to prefer the better argument instead of simplistically the shorter argument (often the one that turns on clever barbed talking points or metaphors or half-truths or appeals to fashionable prejudices and notions, etc.). A focus on the balance of material facts, on the force of deductive and/or inductive and/or abductive logic [do we even understand the differences?], core principles/assumptions and careful drawing out of prudent conclusions would make a huge difference to an era impatient of sound instruction and hell-bent on having its ears tickled with what we want to hear. KF PS, Job:
Job 28English Standard Version (ESV) Job Continues: Where Is Wisdom? 28 “Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place for gold that they refine. 2 Iron is taken out of the earth, and copper is smelted from the ore. 3 Man puts an end to darkness and searches out to the farthest limit the ore in gloom and deep darkness. 4 He opens shafts in a valley away from where anyone lives; they are forgotten by travelers; they hang in the air, far away from mankind; they swing to and fro. 5 As for the earth, out of it comes bread, but underneath it is turned up as by fire. 6 Its stones are the place of sapphires,[a] and it has dust of gold . . . . “But where shall wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding? 13 Man does not know its worth, and it is not found in the land of the living. 14 The deep says, ‘It is not in me,’ and the sea says, ‘It is not with me.’ 15 It cannot be bought for gold, and silver cannot be weighed as its price. 16 It cannot be valued in the gold of Ophir, in precious onyx or sapphire. 17 Gold and glass cannot equal it, nor can it be exchanged for jewels of fine gold. 18 No mention shall be made of coral or of crystal; the price of wisdom is above pearls. 19 The topaz of Ethiopia cannot equal it, nor can it be valued in pure gold. 20 “From where, then, does wisdom come? And where is the place of understanding? 21 It is hidden from the eyes of all living and concealed from the birds of the air. 22 Abaddon and Death say, ‘We have heard a rumor of it with our ears.’ 23 “God understands the way to it, and he knows its place. 24 For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. 25 When he gave to the wind its weight and apportioned the waters by measure, 26 when he made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder, 27 then he saw it and declared it; he established it, and searched it out. 28 And he said to man, ‘Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to turn away from evil is understanding.’”
kairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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CR, you could label a worldview foundationalist and suggest that there are ever so many who reject it, as though that answers. Such, however, is little more than dismissive rhetoric that is selectively hyperskeptical instead of addressing comparative difficulties on the relevant set of worldview core issues. If you really wish to know, I am some sort of broad sense foundherentist, look up Haack et al (and a moderate Skempian constructivist on understanding and learning . . . ); that is I think both major approaches have a point but don't tell the whole story. And Neurath's raft that is ever under reconstruction or the like actually smuggles in a hidden "foundation," i.e. the raft rests on the ocean and the principle of flotation. (It also needs to be strong enough to stand storms and to be big enough to protect from the big sharks that swim in such seas. Or, to change metaphors to a classic comparison, there was once a man who built his house upon sand without foundations. All seemed fine and he saved a lot of money, until the big storms came. This was discussed by ONE who rose from death with 500 witnesses, in proof that he is the foundation who can stand all storms. ) It is worth clipping the just linked review article:
Evidence and Inquiry, Towards Reconstruction in Epistemology, by Susan Haack, is the kind of book that is sorely needed in an age when principles of scepticism and the rejection of the possibility of knowledge have become all but truisms to many people, both inside philosophy and outside. Indeed, one might even say that the "standard analysis" of knowledge is no longer something like "justified true belief" but instead "the construction of power relations." This would mean that the quest for knowledge is over. All has become a quest for power, which is then, when acquired, to be used to express one's race/class/gender consciousness. This dismal recipe for solipsism and tyranny seems to be the heritage of a generation that was educated on radical politics, with great care and expense, in an era before the fall of communism and the general failure of Marxism as either science, history, politics, or economics posed any kind of cognitive problem for academic anti-anti-communists. Utopian indoctrination took hold upon those who didn't have to face the consequences of Utopianism in practice and who are now insensible or unconcerned to learn the truth. Neither philosophy or English departments are the kinds of places where evidence contrary to a self-contained ideology is likely to be encountered just along the way . . . . Since criticisms of foundationalism tend towards coherentism, and criticisms of coherentism tend towards foundationalism, Haack concludes that elements of both must be true and so the proper theory is "foundherentism." This, indeed, must be the case. Coherentism does require some non-inferential cognitive connection to experience, and foundationalism does require the compromise of that connection to other beliefs that influence the Gestalt of the experience itself. Haack's "Foundherentism Articulated" seems to be the substantial foundation of a theory, and her analogy of the crossword puzzle is suggestive and illustrative . . .
But on this thread's focal matters the issue is that we do actually need an ontological root of the world or reality. A real nothing, non-being has no causal powers. Were there ever utter nothing, then such would forever obtain. if a world now is, something always was that is independent of others for its reality, it is the root of reality. The issue then is what is this. It is an ontologically necessary being, independent of others for its existence, it is so as it is framework-level integral to any world existing (even as there can be no world without two-ness and/or distinct identity in it, they are much the same). Any serious candidate necessary being of this order will be either impossible as a square circle is, or else it will be actual. Nonsense like flying spaghetti monsters need not apply, such is a composite entity and a material one, thus instantly not a serious candidate. Sq Circles are impossible as core characteristics stand in mutual contradiction and no being can satisfy them. In our context, we need a NB at world-root level, as the IS that grounds the one and the many of our world, including OUGHT, moral government. The God of ethical theism is such a serious candidate, the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Which evident nature starts its career in the Fallopian tubes at conception and then is present as implantation and development happen, being manifest in an unborn growing child with a beating heart by what 5 1/2 weeks, about the time many women realise that they may be pregnant. Roughly half the time, such a child is not even the same sex as his mother. Let us hear an alternative serious candidate that does not rapidly collapse into incoherence or the like: __________ . The persistent absence of a cogent answer to this speaks for itself. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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AJ, societal agreement can be manipulated or coerced or simply delusional, as I noted with respect to the slave trade as a key relevant example. Notice, we now recognise that this trade was a holocaust-level crime against humanity (complete with a shockingly similar death toll, through it is even harder to pin down). At the time, it took great courage to stand up and cry foul, then endure the counter-attacks and keep going until a critical mass woke up and then the jig was up. So, appeal to society is little more than appeal to subjectivism in a cultural relativism context. Which was already answered in the thread, but I suppose some were too busy trying to imagine how Wilberforce could not provide a relevant exemplar. KFkairosfocus
March 20, 2017
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Any statistics on this topic are going to be woefully off. Especially considering the taboo that was sex prior to the sixties in the west. The figures mentioned above are speculativeat at best, and rife with hearsay, anecdote. So I'll offer my nieces and daughter as an example. They are all 17 and sexually active I suppose, but I don't ask and they don't tell, which makes me very comfortable. I and partner have been explaining sex, periods, condoms and orientation since they were 8. They are healthy, happy, and well adjusted, I think, at least they appear to be. Their various boyfriends also seem clued up on the subject, but once again 'don't ask, don't tell', leaves everyone easier. They know enough not to get pregnant, and despite what the poster above asserts, condoms are damn effective. If daughters are denied a natural, human pleasure like sex, I know the kind of women they become. Please don't characterise my female reltives as sluts. They are intelligent, gentle, sensible members of society. Now, if they did not enjoy sex, then I really would be upset. They also know that in the unlikely event of pregnancy it will be me that escorts them to and from the clinic, hopefully to encounter some inbred, puritan, retards who believe sex, or pleasure really, is a sin.rvb8
March 19, 2017
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A common pro-choice argument is that abortion rates were the same before and after legalization. Thus, if we really want to lower abortion rates, we should focus on contraception and sex-ed instead of making abortion illegal. This argument is verifiably false on many levels. First, there is the argument that abortions reduce the crime rate (ignoring that abortion itself is a crime). If this is true, then a significant reduction in crime rate due to abortion means the abortion rate has risen significantly since legalization. You cannot have it both ways. Second, we know that the abortion rate in 1973 was 700,000 abortions per year. It had more than doubled by 1990 to 1,600,000. At the same time, births only increased by 1/3 from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000. Clearly legalization significantly increases the abortion rate. Finally, as far as we have records, the basic premise that abortion was high prior to legalization is only true for a few years, and beyond that very speculative. If we go back to 1970, we have about 200,000 abortions on record. But, what if we go back a few more years? In 1966, less than a decade prior to legalization, there are only 1,000 recorded abortions. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html. If you look at the dates for when the abortion rates begin to climb significantly, after a brief bump (tens to hundreds per year) during WWII, it began in the mid 1960, after oral contraception was approved by the FDA. The abortion rates really began to climb after 1965, when Griswold v. Connecticut legalized contraception for married couples. Then, in 1972, contraception became legalized across the board, causing abortions to jump by 150,000 the next year. So, rather than claiming an enormous number of unrecorded back alley abortions, the data much better supports the theory that the introduction of contraception into American culture caused an absolutely unprecedented increase in the abortion rate by as much as 70000%. This theory is borne out by Planned Parenthood's own research through its Guttmacher Institute. They show the introduction of contraception into a culture can cause the abortion rate to increase, one demonstrative case study specifically in America. Furthermore, today they show that over 50% of the women getting an abortion were using contraception the month they became pregnant. There is a clear causal mechanism for the positive impact of contraception on abortion rates. No form of contraception is 100% effective. Yet, most of us have great difficulty understanding probabilities, as evidenced by the lottery's popularity. This means people will use contraception thinking they will not become pregnant, have sex a great deal, and then become pregnant. However, now they were not planning for the pregnancy and it is unwanted. In our quick fix, disposable culture, the obvious answer is abortion. And thus, contraception has a tendency to significantly increase the number of unwanted pregnancies, even if it may decrease the overall pregnancy rate. Even more so if abortion is financially lucrative, as Cecil Richards $1 million salary indicates. In summary, while the claim that contraception can lower abortion is true in a limited sense, the evidence strongly supports the alternate conclusion that contraception significantly increases the abortion rate, which it then may lower a little. As a postscript, this argument entirely ignores the other troubling issue that the chemical contraceptives themselves are potential abortifacients. The medical board in America famously changed the definition of pregnancy, so they would not have to list this side effect on the packaging. This means the true abortion rate could be an order of magnitude above the recorded abortion rate. In which case, even if all the other points are wrong, contraception inherently magnifies the abortion rate in a culture, and merely hides us from the reality. So, there are many reasons to be skeptical that legalization has no effect on abortion and contraception/sex-ed are the answer.EricMH
March 19, 2017
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H:
In Pre-Roe America women weren’t charged with first degree murder for obtaining an abortion. They won’t be in Post-Roe America. Abortionists were generally the ones prosecutors went after.
If a mother makes arrangements with a third party to kill her one month old baby, she will be charged with first degree murder. We do not make any allowance for whether or not she was a victim, whether she was beaten as a child, or whether the child was the result of being raped by her father. These factors will certainly be taken into account in the sentencing but not in the charges themselves. Given that the fetus has a right to life that is equal to other humans, why should the mother who arranges with a third party to kill her two week old fetus not be charged with first degree murder? Where is the difference? All I am trying to do is point out the inconsistency between the assertion that all stages of human life, from conception to natural death, have an equal right to life, and the reluctance by the very same people to state that all women who seek and have an abortion should be charged with first degree murder. The charges and penalties for killing a human being, regardless of age (one day old baby to 100 year old), is the same. If you do not afford the same charges and penalties to a woman aborting her fetus then you are admitting that one is not as serious as the other. That the fetus' right to life isn't equal to that of a baby or a 100 year old.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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Actually harry, Armand Jacks logic is sound and yours is irrational. Either abortion is murder and the fetus is a person, or it is not murder and the fetus is not a peron. AJs logic is unarguable; where do you stand? Actually I know where you, Kairos, WJM, and others here stand, they say the fetus is a person, and abortion is murder. Let's take it one logical step further. If, as you believe, abortion is murder (I most certainly do not, I think it's an unfortunate procedure), then why oh why, are you doing nothing. Shouldn't you be out there ending this crime rather than pointlessly writing on a blog with a readership of two? Those who killed the guards at Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor, and Treblinka, are today hailed as heroes; what have you done? I'll tell you why you don't resort to felony murder to solve this supposed injustice, it is because you like me, don't actually see the fetus as human, pre-human sure, but not quite there yet. If you lived next to a Catholic orphanage, and new the priests were raping and murdering the children, but no one would believe you, you, and hopefully I, would do something. But fetuses? Nothing. Just pointless gas bagging, and more pointless psudo-outrage.rvb8
March 19, 2017
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@KF
8: The issue then becomes, what sort of world grounds that, where we know post Hume et al, that it can only be resolved at world-root level.
Are you really unaware that Foundationalism is an epistemological view? Are the criticisms philosophers level against it completely unknown to you? I'm asking because the part of your argument I quoted depends on holding that philosophical view and assuming it's true. Foundatinoaism includes the belief that a foundation to "ground" things is necessary. It's part of the theory itself, not epistemology in general. IOW, why is an argument for why foundationaism is true absent from your posts, as opposed to merely assuming it is true or obvious?critical rationalist
March 19, 2017
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Armand Jacks @39, The laws of every state in the Union for roughly a century reflected the intrinsic illegality of murdering the child in the womb. In Pre-Roe America women weren't charged with first degree murder for obtaining an abortion. They won't be in Post-Roe America. Abortionists were generally the ones prosecutors went after. I won't be suggesting that we should "round up all the women who had abortions when it was legal and charged with first degree murder." The women are very often victims of diabolical propaganda such as that which you promulgate. It might be people like you who are rounded up and put on trial for crimes against humanity. But the women? No. They are most often victims, too.harry
March 19, 2017
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Hey Armand Jacks - continued good job. Very good comments at #38.jdk
March 19, 2017
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Harry@37, then you also agree that if the right to life applies to the fetus, and we make abortion illegal again, that women who have abortions should be charged with first degree murder and suffer the consequences if found guilty (life in prison or execution). And based on your Nuremberg comment, you also agree that when we make abortions illegal that we should round up all the women who had abortions when it was legal and charged with first degree murder. Given that it was KF who insists that abortion is a worse holocaust than the one perpetrated by the Nazis, and since WM fully supports KF's view, I would be interested in their opinions on charging women who have (and had) abortions with first degree murder.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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KF:
You have dodged aside and failed to address the root of morality, apart from subjectivism and relativism reducing to might and manipulation make ‘right.’
I have not dodged this at all. I addressed it head on. All of history has shown that might and manipulation AND SOCIETAL AGREEMENT make "right". It is and always has been a tug of war between those who want to profit from manipulation and force, and those who want to develop consensus and agreement. Have you not been watching the news, or read any history books?
That is the context in which I put up a serious candidate IS that inherently grounds OUGHT, not as assumption but as a candidate for worldview level inference to best explanation.
This still is based on the assumption that a world level IS exists and is necessary. Only then would your candidate IS possibly be the best explanation. But what if this hypothetical world level IS does not exist? What are the implications and consequences of this possibility? What would our societies and civilizations look like? Pretty much like what we see in the news every day. Pretty much like what we read about in history books.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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Armand Jacks @35,
it is the opinion of the legal system.
The opinion of the legal system is wrong and evil in so far as it allows the murder of innocent humanity: -- Humanity precedes the state and brings it into existence. -- Therefore the state exists for humanity, not humanity for the state. -- Therefore it is humanity that bestows and withdraws the state's right to exist, not the state that bestows and withdraws humanity's right to exist. -- Therefore the state simply has no authority to "legalize" the murder of innocent humanity. This is why there were defendants at the Nuremberg Trials who demonstrated that they had done nothing illegal according to Nazi Law -- but were still hanged. This was because murder is intrinsically illegal. There is no such thing as "legal" murder for the civilized. With roots in Aristotle's "The state comes into existence that man may live" and in the "First, do no harm" medical oath of Hippocrates which explicitly prohibited abortion, the traditional ethic of Western civilization acknowledged the inestimable dignity and worth of all human life. The medical oath of Hippocrates has been rejected only twice in modern history: By the Nazi medical profession during the twelve years of the Third Reich, and in contemporary society. Similarly, the state claiming for itself the authority to "legalize" the murder of innocent humanity as a matter of social policy is also a reemergence of the irrational Nazi assumption of god-like authority for the state. When man pretends to be a god he becomes a ghastly beast, a savage buffoon, a subhuman monster instead.harry
March 19, 2017
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JR@31, thank you for having the honesty to admit that a woman aborting a fetus would be commiting first degree murder. Others here, I suspect, will dance around this logical conclusion of insisting that the fetus has a right to life. Just one little quibble. You mentioned that you hoped that many women would be ignorant to the fact that an abortion is murder. This may be true in reality, but ignorance is not accepted as a defense.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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PaV:
It’s not logic; it’s hysteria. “There are no options.” This is just your opinion, and not a well-thought out one.
No, it is the opinion of the legal system. If you plan and execute the murder of anyone, it is first degree murder and punishable by execution in many states. If the fetus enjoys the same right to life as a newborn baby, as KF, WM and others here insist, then intentionally terminating the pregnancy is first degree murder. If you don't like that idea, take it up with KF and WM. I am just taking their assertions about the rights of the fetus to the inevitable conclusions. If you disagree with me, try presenting rationale as to why I am in error. So far you have not done so.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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KF, I have seen you accused of writing "interminable screeds" by some that are either unwilling to read your arguments or who have difficulty following them. I, for one, very much enjoy the comprehensive approach you take. It is for no better reason than your very mention of God, among other things, that your opponents could not even pretend to understand your stance. Atheism has a dedicated following, to be sure, and it would be spiritually intellectually dangerous for them to agree with something a theist proposed. After all, an honest confession of atheism apparently amounts to transcending the apish hoi polloi.JoshRob
March 19, 2017
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F/N: Wilberforce is a key exemplar (as BTW was Ep. Philemon -- source of the anti-slavery society's key motto), where we now recognise that the kidnapping-based chattel slave trade was a major, holocaust level, crime against humanity. But at that time civilisation was in the grip of delusions manipulated by powerful interests -- e.g. Wilberforce et al were among other things characterised as attacking the recruitment pool of the Royal Navy (when death rates for sailors on those ships of horror may have been up to 25% IIRC from my history books). Reformation opens the way to moral growth of the community through its return to sanity. One step of the current process is that we are going to eventually need an international truth and reconciliation commission on the mass abortion civilisational kulturkampf, which should be associated with tribunals capable of censure and recommendation of loss of credibility for cases of gross ethical violations of the same natural laws that answered to the defendant's claims to be acting under lawful orders at Nuremburg. But no, I see no reason to bring back the hangman; let our shame as a civilisation and let our shame on record as key enablers, promoters and practitioners be enough -- though some may need to be held in protective custody on long term suicide watch. The judgement of history against our era will be grim. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2017
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AJ, You have dodged aside and failed to address the root of morality, apart from subjectivism and relativism reducing to might and manipulation make 'right.' A comparison of the above with here on with context and onward links will quickly show that by dodging from one thread to the next you played at knock-over the strawman rhetoric. On track record, unsurprisingly. I suggest as a start-point for a sounder approach: 1: Our consciences testify to our being under moral government (even in our reasoning process), even as say Ruse and Wilson admit when they argued (1991):
The time has come to take seriously the fact [--> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external grounding… Ethics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. Once it is grasped, everything falls into place.
[ --> And everything instantly falls apart as this would set grand delusion loose in our mental lives. Even logical reasoning is guided by the conscience-driven urge to truth, right and justice, so once such a grand delusion is let loose it undermines the general credibility of conscious mindedness, setting up a cascade of shadow-show worlds. The skeptical spider has enmeshed himself in his own web. Thus, any such scheme should be set aside as self-refuting.]
[Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991. (NB: Cf. a separate discussion on the grounding of worldviews and ethics here on, which includes a specific discussion of the grounding of ethics and goes on to Biblical theism; having first addressed the roots of the modern evolutionary materialist mindset and its pretensions to the mantle of science. Also cf. here on for Plato's warning in The Laws, Bk X, on social consequences of the rise of such a view as the philosophy of the avant garde in a community.]
2: This of course lets grand delusion loose in our conscious mindedness, also demonstrating that I am not just picking notions out of the air when I point to the problem. 3: Alex Rosenberg amplifies, digging in deeper:
Alex Rosenberg as he begins Ch 9 of his The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: >> FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. [–> grand delusion is let loose in utter self referential incoherence] Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates [–> bye bye to responsible, rational freedom on these presuppositions]. The physical facts fix all the facts. [--> asserts materialism, leading to . . . ] The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We [–> at this point, what "we," apart from "we delusions"?] can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives [–> thus rational thought and responsible freedom]. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live.>>
4: This immediately leads to an infinite regress of Plato's Cave style delusions as there is no basis for trusting level 2, then level 3 etc perceptions as credible. Reduction to absurdity. 5: That is where evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers end up when they take up the notion of reducing the testimony of conscience to delusion. That is, they let grand delusion loose. 6: A saner approach is to recognise that while we may err as much in moral reasoning as we do in general or arithmetical or scientific or mathematical reasoning, this does not indict the core realities being perceived as inherently delusional. 7: We are under moral government as a law of our nature as responsible, rational, significantly free individuals necessarily being in community. 8: The issue then becomes, what sort of world grounds that, where we know post Hume et al, that it can only be resolved at world-root level. 9: That is the context in which I put up a serious candidate IS that inherently grounds OUGHT, not as assumption but as a candidate for worldview level inference to best explanation. (Worldviews are evaluated on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power.) 10: I asserted then and still do, that this is the only adequate candidate after centuries of debate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary, maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. To test this, simply put up another that is explanatorily adequate: ____________ (That is, without falling into incoherence as seen above and accounting for the moral government we find ourselves under.) 11: As is predictable, you distorted what I argued into a strawman caricature [an IBE argument is not a case of question-begging) and you dodged the challenge, refusing to draw out and face the sort of direct implications as can be seen above. 12: WJM is dead right to point to the sad state of public discussion. KFkairosfocus
March 19, 2017
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AJ @ 27
Or you are admitting that the right to life increases throughout the pregnancy.
What does it mean for the right to life to "increase," exactly? I suppose it actually means an increase in rights, plural, not some mysterious "quantity" of the right to life. The right to life is not quantifiable; a human simply has the right to life or he/she does not. What are the criteria? I say any living being in the womb with its own human DNA (i.e. distinct from the mother's) has the right to life by default; his/her right to life must be somehow forfeited at a later point, e.g. the fetus matures into an adult human and commits first degree murder (if one supports capital punishment - otherwise, the right to life is immutable). But can materialist rationale determine the basis of this right? Is your answer really grounded in science somehow? I might assert that there is no material basis for rights (or morality). And if there is, it does not suffice to say so. I will require a rational demonstration of that material basis, not an appeal to intuition. I'd actually like a more full discussion about which rights a person has and at which point they are granted each one, from both perspectives, just out of curiosity. I've never felt the need to enumerate the personal milestones a human must reach to be granted particular rights.
Extenuating circumstances do not get you out of a conviction. They only mitigate the sentencing. And there are minimum sentences for murder.
I must confess, I do not know why people I suspect are deontologists of some fashion or another are arguing with this. Yes, abortion would be first degree murder in the grand majority of cases, as far as I can tell. Hopefully many women could be said to be genuinely ignorant of any murder taking place. It may well be overwhelmingly difficult to prosecute every perpetrator of an abortion if it were made illegal, but this is not a valid argument about whether or not it "ought" to be illegal. To sum up the objection at play here, an evil that is too difficult to oppose must be given exception - or perhaps, that which is not feasible is not morally imperative. I say, if there is such a thing as "right," we have to fight for it in some capacity, regardless of our seeming capacity to win that fight. I will never stop objecting to evil, no matter how commonplace it becomes or how difficult it is to effect change. That's not a valid materialist position, of course. To one so persuaded, morality must be no more than sound and fury that signifies nothing, or a striving after the wind. Just some controversial ideas that homo sapiens is constantly revising, ideas that carry some baseless authority for a moment. Can this conversation honestly benefit either side? I suppose, at the least, some of us hope so.JoshRob
March 19, 2017
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PaV, I would love to hear what the options are. KF and others here think that a fetus (actually a fertilised egg) is a human being and that to kill it is murder. Applying the same logic why should a woman who chooses to have an abortion not be treated as a murderer by the law?Pindi
March 19, 2017
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It's not logic; it's hysteria. "There are no options." This is just your opinion, and not a well-thought out one.PaV
March 19, 2017
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PaV:
Don’t be hysterical. Use your mind.
Rather than tossing ad hominems, why not try addressing my logic.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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F:
Secondly, murder is not always first degree murder and certainly a woman in fear of any number of things due to an unwanted pregnancy has extenuating circumstances and may not be committing first degree murder under our current court system.
If a murder is planned in advance, it is first degree murder. Second degree murder and manslaughter are only used when the premeditated planning can't be conclusively demonstrated. Since abortions involve more than one doctor's appointment and the signing of a waiver acknowledging that you were made aware of what you are doing and how the procedure will take place, you would be hard pressed to argue that it was not premeditated. Extenuating circumstances do not get you out of a conviction. They only mitigate the sentencing. And there are minimum sentences for murder. Self defence might be possible but that typically only applies if the person you kill has an intent to do you harm or you have a strong reason for thinking that they intend to do you harm. You would have a hard time arguing that a fetus with no brain is intentionally planning to do you harm. Temporary insanity would be your best defence. Again, a difficult defence for something you planned in advance and went out of your way to do.
Ridiculous and just plain dumb. First, your straw man. No is arguing that an unborn baby is entitled to full human rights...
No, but you are arguing that they are entitled to the right to life. Anybody who premeditatively kills a person against their will, from birth to the minutes before they would have died of natural causes, is guilty of first degree murder. If fetuses also are entitled to the right to life, the same laws would apply. If the death was premeditated and planned, it is first degree murder. If you are suggesting that a woman should not be charged with first degree murder for having an abortion then you are admitting that the fetus does not have the right to life. Or you are admitting that the right to life increases throughout the pregnancy. Good luck with suggesting either of those here.Armand Jacks
March 19, 2017
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