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Theology corner: Why is the ID guy at the open theology conference a pork chop at a Jewish wedding?

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Recently, a caffeine-deprived friend was grousing about the fact that ID proponents don’t tend to be welcomed at “open theology” conferences.

“Open theology” implies a much more limited sort of God than the Immortal, invisible, God only wise of the Western monotheist (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) tradition.

Now, it’s unclear to me why the ID guys, who are mostly hard math and science types, should even want to hang out with these children of a lesser god. But my friend insisted on hearing the view from O’Leary’s Point, so here goes. And I have followed it up with a testable prediction, too:

First, what is theistic evolution? Basically, its message is this: Our God is so powerful that you can see no evidence of his presence in the creation of life (though, for some reason, you can see such evidence if you look at outer space). That’s genome mapper Francis Collins’ approach.

As a traditional Christian, I am handicapped in even considering theistic evolution (TE), not because I have a problem with evolution as such, but by the many places in Scripture where the whole creation, including life – together with its imperfections – is said to provide evidence of God’s work. Forced to choose, I consider the TEs more likely to be wrong than the Scriptures.

Now, TE is marketed to Christians mainly as an escape from, say, Kent Hovind vs. Lenny Flank. Many would rather spend an evening watching catfights in the back alley.

The devil, however, is in the details. Pressed to explain why God’s work is not evident in the design of life, the theistic evolutionist announces that Darwin’s theory explains how life comes into existence and develops into the plenitude of forms that we see today without any input from God.

But strangely, while life forms, which are staggeringly complex, can easily perform such a feat, the cosmos itself cannot. No no, the typical theistic evolutionist protests, that couldn’t be done without God. The universe is fine-tuned for life to come into existence.

Yet many cosmologists think the cosmos can do just that. And their evidence is no better or worse than the Darwinists’ evidence. Like the Darwinists, these cosmologists start with their conclusion and place enormous weight on some pretty slender branches of evidence. Then they command you to believe because materialism is true.

(Materialists are like all other sects, except for one critical difference: They generally do not hold out a collection plate or wave a sign on the street. They scalp your tax money to promote their philosophy in the school system and make your kids study from their books.)

So now what becomes of our dear old theistic evolution?

Well, up to now, we have been making certain assumptions about God, right? “Immortal, invisible, God only wise … ” as the old song goes. We have assumed that we must decide between that God or no God.

And if we decide that the evidence from nature favours an omnipotent God, we must treat the Scriptural accounts as evidence too. We do not have to accept the Scriptures in a fundamentalist way, but we must consider them evidence. That means we must confront the fact that Scripture insists that God’s hand IS evident in the design of life. So we should not be surprised to find such evidence, any more than we should be surprised to find that the cosmos is apparently fine-tuned for life. There is no reason in either case to feel compelled to explain away the evidence as arising accidentally from brute forces – let alone to accept large promises from the materialists that some day someone will prove such a proposition.

Materialists can currently compel your tax money, but they cannot compel you to accept their IOUs. Not yet, anyway.

So bye, bye TE. Put simply, what TE is trying to do doesn’t need doing. So it has morphed mainly into an opposition to ID – an opposition which becomes less and less coherent as the materialist agenda becomes more obvious.

For example, one often hears TE’s blaming the ID folk for starting trouble with materialists. Which raises the question of why they themselves haven’t. With arch-Darwinist Dawkins planning to mail tons of anti-God crapola to Brit schools and an evolutionary biologist declaring that ID-sympathetic students should be flunked, the TEs are merely making their irrelevance plain to everyone.

But there is another possibility! Some reluctantly agree with ID that there is evidence for God – but guess what, he is NOT the God portrayed in Scripture. He bungles. He goofs. He’s kinda smart, but he doesn’t know what’s going to happen.

What difference does that make? Well, if you got struck blind, the open God would say, “Crikey! What bad luck! I shoulda seen that coming, Awful sorry there, fella, I wasn’t paying attention …. Tell you what, I’ll … ”

He would NOT say “Who gives [man] sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?” and inform you, with no further explanation, of your next tour of duty.

Okay, so where are we now? We have a god. Actually, why be exclusivist? We could have lots of gods. We could be back in pagan culture, with the lovable and irresponsible gods. They don’t damn people, because they don’t give a damn – but they do damage them. They are divinized celebrities. Watch the Ring Cycle and you will get the idea, especially Gotterdammitall, where the gods go up in smoke.

So, why might my ID friend’s theology-prone buddies not be welcome at open theology conferences? Well, open theologians are their competitors! Open theologians can make the same claims as ID. They can  go ahead and attribute the design of life, alongwith its apparent flaws, to the equivalent of Wotan or – better yet – to an anthropomorphized force.

Darwin, meet Carl Jung.

See, as materialism slowly throttles itself, anyone with a non-materialist idea sees an opportunity. It’ll be wild and woolly.

Conclusion: If ID were not so closely associated with a traditional “Almighty” concept of God, ID guys would be more welcome at open theo conferences.

Testable prediction:  The open-ists will probably permit the hearty priestesses of Gaia to declaim, and now and then they will host a pundit known as something like Thundercloud who claims to be a male witch, and assures you that he is in touch with himself, or some part of himself ….

Go ahead, I told my friend. Call me wrong – until they actually do it. Meanwhile, let the professoriat hold forth with predictions that do not come true – for example that the Dover trial was a curtain call for ID.

Now, for me, back to journalism. For him, back to teaching.

Comments
many TE’s find “strong” versions of ID incompatible with the foregoing expectations about how God works in creation, providence, revelation and scripture. Strong versions of ID, such as irreducible complexity, expect to find essentially revelatory evidence of God’s existence in creation apart from the ordinary operation of natural laws — indeed, precisely by contrast to the ordinary operation of natural laws. This is what irreducible complexity, for example, tries to do. dopderbeck, I have to disagree with your description of IC. IC doesn't try to show how something came about. It just points out a problem -- possibly a fatal one -- in the existing paradigm. Now, concerning the foundational tenet of ID -- that life, by objective criteria, should presume to be designed --where is the objection? And if there is one, why would there not be one for the presumption that life occurred via random events?tribune7
December 2, 2006
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Re: Paul Brand (24): "Regarding what Dembski believes about common descent, I think he has said things that implies he does. Come to think of it, I do find it interesting that I can’t think of anything he has said that would positively affirm that. He tends to be a little more ambiguous. It may be tactful for him not to say, seeing that he is a leader of a movement that welcomes people on either side of that particular issue." William A Dembski, The Design Revolution (2004), p. 178:
Intelligent design does not require organisms to emerge suddenly or to be specially designed from scratch by the intervention of a designing intelligence. To be sure, intelligent design is compatible with the creationist idea of organisms being suddenly created from scratch. But it is also perfectly compatible with the evolutionist idea of new organisms arising from old by a gradual accrual of change. What separates intelligent design from naturalistic evolution is not whether organisms evolved or the extent to which they evolved but what was responsible for their evolution. Naturalistic evolution holds that material mechanisms alone are responsible for evolution (the chief of these being the Darwinian mechanisms of random variation and natural selection). Intelligent design, by contrast, holds that material mechanisms are capable of only limited evolutionary change and that any substantial evolutionary change would require input from a designing intelligence. Moreover, intelligent design maintains that the input of intelligence into biological systems is empirically detectable: that is, it is detectable by observation through the methods of science. For intelligent design, the crucial question therefore is not whether organisms emerged through an evolutionary process or suddenly from scratch but whether a designing intelligence made a discerible difference -- regardless of how organisms emerged.
j
December 2, 2006
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Paul, I don't see the contradiction. Physical laws are not truly deterministic. They set boundaries, but various things can happen within those boundaries, and outcomes, particularly in complex systems, can't be predicted with any certainty (and can't really be predicted at all at the quantum level). Thus, we can use words like "random" and "chance" even though the universe is governed by natural laws. To the materialst, evolution truly happened by "chance," meaning not only that evolution is uncorrolated with observable outside causes, but also that there is no external force, intelligence, purpose, etc. guiding evolution. The Reformed view (and really I'd suggest, generally, any orthodox Christian view) is that nothing happens truly by "chance" or "randomly." God is sovereign, which means that He knows and directs even events that we cannot correlate with any observable cause. Further, because God is sovereign, the universe is contingent on God's will and depends on Him for its continued existence (in theological terms, God continually "sustains" the creation). This is where the notion of the "hiddenness" of God becomes important. We do not possess the mind of God, and therefore we do not expect to be able, ordinarily, to discern God's sovereign will and sustanance of creation, apart from appreciating the beauty and orderliness of physical laws. Generally, we need special revelation (the Bible) to instruct us concerning the specifics of God's plans -- although we sometimes can see God working, or see how He has worked, in some limited ways through circumstances (for example, when everything "just happens" to line up just right so my friend for whom I've been praying gets that job he so desperately needs). So we are tying together here the doctrines of creation, providence, revelation, and scripture, and they fit together very nicely. I'd recommend to you here the work of Thomas Torrance, which traces many of these themes. To make this a little more concrete, think of the End Cretacious extinction (and let's just assume for now it was caused by a massive meteor or comet strike and that the story of it making room for mammals is true). We can explain that event and its aftermath in purely natural terms. Yet, we could also say it was unlikely that a comet would strike the earth at just the right place and time to clear out the dinosaurs and allow mammals to diversify. The theological TE perspective is that this was one of those many events that happened in God's sovereign plan so that humans possessing the imago Dei eventually could occupy the Earth. Of course, this is a particularly dramatic event, and most events in natural history seem mundane. But the theological perspective is that the way this all came together, in a way that ultimately is unkowable by us, came together within God's sovereign plans for creation. In other words, it is not truly random or accidental that we are here blogging about it today. And this leads to Tribune's question: many TE's find "strong" versions of ID incompatible with the foregoing expectations about how God works in creation, providence, revelation and scripture. Strong versions of ID, such as irreducible complexity, expect to find essentially revelatory evidence of God's existence in creation apart from the ordinary operation of natural laws -- indeed, precisely by contrast to the ordinary operation of natural laws. This is what irreducible complexity, for example, tries to do. I think most evangelical TE's would allow that God sometimes does this, and would call such actions "miracles." But the expectation is that, according to the pattern of scripture, miracles are relatively rare and usually are specifically part of redemptive history -- the paradigmatic example being Christ's resurrection. Most TE's would argue that the Psalm 19 type passages in scripture don't lead us to expect to find super-natural miracles in natural history. To the contrary, such passages tell us we should see the glory of God in the ordinary working of nature. That said, my experience is that some TE's are relatively comfortable with a more modest natural theology, which could in some ways be called "ID." For example, most TE's, including folks like Francis Collins, are comfortable with "design" arguments based on the anthropic principle. But again, that sort of argument says the "ordinary" operation of physical laws is so unique and amazing that it suggests design and teleology. There is no effort to make nature "miraculous" in the sense of having developed in ways that natural laws cannot accomodate.dopderbeck
December 1, 2006
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dopderbeck, I found your response quite informative. I have a question regarding Reform theology and science. In your first paragraph you made reference to "beautiful natural laws" and in your 3rd paragraph you say that evangelical TEs believe God directed every step of evolution. To, me these statements are in tension, or even in contradiction. I can understand the view that God directed evolution through the creation of natural laws, but I don't have the impression that is what you are saying. Maybe its stuff like this that draws me away from Reformed theology. I can't seem to sort out the apparent contradictions. How do you sort through it?Paul Brand
December 1, 2006
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I’m not convinced by every TE argument, but neither am I convinced by every ID argument. A third way needs to develop, . . . How is TE incompatible with ID?tribune7
December 1, 2006
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This is a really, really poor and unfair reading of TE. TE's do not deny that God is evident in creation, nor do they deny the scriptures like Psalm 19 that say this. What TE's deny is that there is specific evidence of design in creation apart from the "ordinary" symmetry and beauty of the "natural" created order. TE's argue that their approach is more true to Biblical texts such as Psalm 19. After all, Psalm 19 says the "heavens" -- the ordinary nature we see all around us -- evidence God's glory. The assumption of Psalm 19 and similar passages is that God made all of creation and that all of it displays His glory. This is very different than an ID position that says "this particular aspect of the created order can't be explained by those beautiful natural laws and therefore proves God made it." The latter assertion may or may not have merit on its own, and may or may not be important as we try to interpret Gen. 1 and 2, but the argument that it is somehow more Biblical than a TE position based on passages like Psalm 19 is unfair bunk. Further, you are ignoring a deep thread of theology that runs through TE here, which is the notion of the "hiddenness" of God and the Reformed aversion to natural theology. Luther and others in the Reformed tradition largely rejected the Catholic Scholastic approach to faith, revelation, and reason, which tended to give reason an autonomous status, such that people could know quite a bit about God based on human reason alone. The reformers (and some Catholic thinkers, notably Pascal), said this is not so: God is "hidden," in the sense that, although we can see something of God generally in creation, we cannot really know anything about Him apart from revelation. The TE position here arguably is much more in line with the Reformed tradition than the ID position. That doesn't make TE or ID right or wrong, but it illustrates that you're stepping on a deep fault line in Christian theology here -- not something you can or should make into a polemic against TE. Finally, as to whether and why TE's aren't invited to "open theism" meetings, if that's the case, I suspect it's partly because many TE's take a strong, Reformed view of God's sovereignty. The evangelical TE's I know hold that God sovereignly directs every little step of evolution. This obviously clashes head-on with open theism. OTOH, I've read some TE's who I think essentially are open theists or close to it, so frankly I doubt that this claim about being invited to conferences it sustainable. The clash within the evangelical camp between ID and TE is stupid. I'm not convinced by every TE argument, but neither am I convinced by every ID argument. A third way needs to develop, and the ideologues in both the TE and ID camps need to lay down their rhetorical swords, stop misrepresenting each other, and cooperate.dopderbeck
December 1, 2006
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Michael7 asked: "But what do you think the general view is within the O’Theo?" From my interaction with other open theists, I don't get the impression that there is any 'general view' on ID, as contrasted, say, with YEC or TE. If there is more 'openness' to TE among open theists than among Christians generally, that is not because of anything to do with open theism per se, but rather because of demographics. Most of the more conservative denominations, with the exception of some Arminian and pentecostal denominations, are rather hostile to open theism. (Often because of straw-man type arguments, unfortunately.) Open theism is more tolerated among the more liberal wings of Christianity. Since it's the more conservative denominations that are typically more friendly to ID and YEC, and the more liberal ones that are typically more friendly to TE, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a great many open theists are also TE's. But there are also a great many who are not TE's (like myself), and it's important to remember that open theism as such is neutral on ID/YEC/TE matters.Alan Rhoda
December 1, 2006
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Hi Paul, I am interested in ID from a philosophical point of view, but have found the movement difficult to understand at times. Is it science or religion or both? Your last paragraph is actually quite helpful. thanksbj
December 1, 2006
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DaveScot, Do you know if anyone has looked at the ID-Gaia relationship? I know Bill asked the question recently. Are there any links you can suggest. btw, Lynn Margulis still calls herself a Darwinist, according to Michael Shermer's 'Woodstock of Evolution' article.antg
December 1, 2006
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Perhaps Darwinists could mail tons of "anti God ("abstract", "conceptual" immaterial unidentified intelligent agent) crapola to Jack Trevors and David Abel... It wouldn't change anything...platolives
November 30, 2006
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Whoops... forgot to say, you'll need to scroll down almost to the bottom to watch the video. LOL..., just seeing Marx warm-up, run, then....Michaels7
November 30, 2006
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Alan, good to see you're a supporter, looked at your blog briefly and noticed the links to here and IDtF. But what do you think the general view is within the O'Theo? Also, if anyone has not seen the Philosopher's football match between the Greeks and the Germans, it is quite worthy of thought, with a brief moment of inspiration. From Alan's blog, I give you - Philosopher PhilosoFoe; YouTube, http://www.alanrhoda.net/blog/2006_08_01_archive.html A match made in history... or was it?Michaels7
November 30, 2006
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Classic:
But there is another possibility! Some reluctantly agree with ID that there is evidence for God - but guess what, he is NOT the God portrayed in Scripture. He bungles. He goofs. He’s kinda smart, but he doesn’t know what’s going to happen. What difference does that make? Well, if you got struck blind, the open God would say, “Crikey! What bad luck! I shoulda seen that coming, Awful sorry there, fella, I wasn’t paying attention …. Tell you what, I’ll … ”
You pointed it - idolatry! Besides who wants to worship and depend on a God like that? No thank you.jpark320
November 30, 2006
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Paul, I appreciate what you are saying. I have not read Time for many years so I can't comment on that. Miller sends far more fire our way -- usually unfairly -- than he does at the materialists, and he seems to think we are a much bigger threat. I think that's kind of strange.tribune7
November 30, 2006
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OK, Alan fair enough about open theology.tribune7
November 30, 2006
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Tribune, another example came to mind. I've been reading a bit from Panda's Thumb lately, and one of their thread authors, "PvM" is a Christian, who is continually standing up to those who think religion is all a bunch of hooey. Now, he is quite negative towards ID, and for myself, I intend to be a bit more cordial than he is. But, I think because there are voices such as his out there, scientific materialists won't be so quick to fail students if they don't sign the Darwinian creed.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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bj, after your last post, I'm unsure what you believe. My prior post to you assumed that you would consider yourself part of the ID camp. Perhaps this is the case, but if it is not, then my post to you may not make a lot of sense. Regarding what Dembski believes about common descent, I think he has said things that implies he does. Come to think of it, I do find it interesting that I can't think of anything he has said that would positively affirm that. He tends to be a little more ambiguous. It may be tactful for him not to say, seeing that he is a leader of a movement that welcomes people on either side of that particular issue. But, I see your point that it will be difficult to get scientific recognition without positively affirming a 13 billion years old universe and rejecting a view that thinks it is 6000 years old. It is quite understandable why a person of one view will think the other view is completely nuts judging the rather large magnitude between the two numbers. I was a YEC for the vast majority of my 28 years here on earth. It was quite the pill to swallow when I came to grasps that I was wrong. If ID were to leave behind the YECs, they would be sacrificing their largest segment of followers. If they want general public approval, for the time being that means a big tent including YEC. If they want approval from the scientific community, they need to burn some bridges, and focus more on the science, and less on public relations. But, realistically, I don't think burning the bridge with YECs is going to help a whole lot.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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Tribune, you may want to see the debate between Francis Collins and Richard Dawkins in a recent issue of Time magazine (or read Collins' "Language of God"). UC also posted a debate between David Quinn and Richard Dawkins a month or two ago. Both Collins and Quinn are TEs. I also know Kenneth Millers' book "Finding Darwin's God" attacks those who mix up philosophical naturalism with science.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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Tribune, You may be right about few TE standing up to Darwinists. For what it's worth, I'm not a TE, nor is there anything in open theology proper that ought to incline one to TE. Regards, AlanAlan Rhoda
November 30, 2006
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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/09/ken_miller_creationist.php http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/ken_millers_tal.html http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/kenneth_miller_1.htmlcdf
November 30, 2006
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Hi Paul, "bj, you are right that many IDists don’t believe in common descent, but I think the majority of the big name IDists that I know of do believe in common descent. The list would include (to my knowledge) Dembski and Behe, who are perhaps the biggest two names in the Intelligent Design community. So, if there is a gulf between TE and ID because of common descent, you would also have to acknowledge that there is a gulf within the ID community. There may be a lesser difference between Francis Collins and Behe then there is between Behe and Paul Nelson." I am probably just uninformed here, but I didn't know Prof. Dembski believed in common descent, but I know Behe does. You are right about the difference of opinion within ID regarding common descent. I have been of the opinion that ID will never be taken seriously as a science until it accepts the reality of common descent, but I know some will disagree. I am also struck by Denyse's statement about scripture informing what to look for in nature regarding design. I thought that was the general definition of creationism-those who used sacred writings to guide their understanding of what to find in nature. However, I may have misunderstood her comments.bj
November 30, 2006
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"I never see a TE proponent standing up to a Darwinian materialist." Then you didn't see all the flack Ken Miller got from the materialists about his little talk in Kansas... there was a huge fuss made about it on the Panda's Thumb a while back.cdf
November 30, 2006
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Open theists are committed to a robust monotheism that ascribes to God maximal knowledge, power, and goodness. Alan, one problem I've found with defenders of TE is that they only seem to be defending it against ID, which by definition is something to which they should subscribe. I never see a TE proponent standing up to a Darwinian materialist.tribune7
November 30, 2006
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Ahhh, that's right Paul. Thanks. He's essentially a Baptist in that regard, it would seem. Cool.Scott
November 30, 2006
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bj, you are right that many IDists don't believe in common descent, but I think the majority of the big name IDists that I know of do believe in common descent. The list would include (to my knowledge) Dembski and Behe, who are perhaps the biggest two names in the Intelligent Design community. So, if there is a gulf between TE and ID because of common descent, you would also have to acknowledge that there is a gulf within the ID community. There may be a lesser difference between Francis Collins and Behe then there is between Behe and Paul Nelson.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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Scott, Craig takes a view called "middle knowledge" which seems to be halfway between Calvinism and Arminianism. I don't think I could adequately describe it off the top of my head. But, I'm confident it is different than open theism.Paul Brand
November 30, 2006
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I think my apologetics hero, William Lane Craig, considers himself an Open Theist. I could be wrong. Anyone know?Scott
November 30, 2006
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"...not because I have a problem with evolution as such, but by the many places in Scripture where the whole creation, including life - together with its imperfections - is said to provide evidence of God’s work. Forced to choose, I consider the TEs more likely to be wrong than the Scriptures." What does that mean, exactly? Does it mean you reject TE, not based on evidence and reason, but based on what Scripture tells you? And why does TE go against Scripture? Do you have to have empirical evidence to have faith? Does an omnipotent God have to leave blatant evidence that he struck a person blind for us to know that it was in his control? I, as a TE, believe through faith that all things are in His control, but I don't need empirical evidence to prove this to me. I accept it on FAITH. "By grace are ye saved, through FAITH..." It is my opinion that the very existence of the universe is all the evidence I need to know that there is a god, the rest is based on my personal relationship with Him and the faith that has been given to me.cdf
November 30, 2006
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Paul It seems that some in the DI are welcoming of cosmological IDists even if they believe in evolution. These include deists like Ben Franklin and Albert Einstein who believe the universe was created and unfolded according to a plan. Deists don't have any particular argument about not being able to detect design in nature that I'm aware of.DaveScot
November 30, 2006
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antg Gaia could certainly fit into the big tent. Lynn Margulis (endosymbiosis fame and Carl Sagan's ex) is the other big flag carrier for it besides Lovelock. Allen MacNeil said she was a good friend of his. Both Allen and Lynn have proclaimed the death of NDE but still eschew ID. At least Allen does. I don't know about Lynn. DaveScot
November 30, 2006
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