Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

There are more things in heaven and earth, Paul, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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It’s funny how Paul Myers, Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, et al say that evolution isn’t about religion yet you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting one of their rants on religion. But that’s not the point of this article.

I have a problem with these people in that they arbitrarily limit what science can potentially explain. The so called supernatural remains supernatural only as long as there’s no metric by which to measure it. Once a metric is discovered the supernatural becomes the natural.

Paul quotes someone on the virgin birth of Christ saying that it defies everything science has revealed in regard to mammalian reproduction. This is utter dreck. Even (especially!) Myers should know that meiosis is a two stage process wherein the first stage results in the production of two perfectly viable diploid cells. The second stage of meiosis then splits these two cells into four haploid gametes. Interrupting the process at the completion of the first stage results in parthenogenesis. Indeed, there are number of organisms in nature that have lost the second stage of meiosis and now reproduce parthenogenetically. See here for more detail. Moreover, it has also been scientifically established that an XX genome can produce phenotypical male offspring. Morever, while all observed XX males in humans are sterile, pathenogenetic populations can still reproduce sexually if sexual reproduction still exists in the species (Da Vinci Code fans will be happy to know this). While it was widely believed that mammals had completely lost the ability for parthenogenetic reproduction, in 2004 researchers in Tokyo managed to create viable parthenogenetic mice. So Paul, science now reveals that the virgin birth of a human male is quite possible. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What I want to know now is whether ignorance or dishonesty explains why you’d quote someone who claims the virgin birth of Christ defies everything we know about mammalian reproduction. Neither explanation becomes you of course and it gives me immeasurable delight to put you in the proverbial position of choosing between a rock and a hard place. 😆

The next thing I’d like to debunk in Paul’s latest diatribe is his assertion that matter and energy is all that exists in the universe and science can explain it all without reverting to anything else.

The latest findings in cosmology are that the universe is composed of 5% visible matter, 20% dark matter, and 75% dark energy. The theory of gravity applied to the visible matter and energy in our solar system and local region of the galaxy predicts with exquisite precision the motion of visible bodies. However, when applied to larger structures such as our galaxy and our local galactic cluster the predictions break down. In order to explain those motions there must be 5 times the amount of visible matter existing in some form of normal matter that is not visible. That’s not very incredible and many hypothesis based on known physics are on the table to characterize the dark matter component. See here for more detail. What’s more bizarre is that recently it was discovered that in the universe writ large (relative motions of galactic clusters) it is revealed that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. This was not predicted by the theory of gravity and the amount of matter and energy inferred from the motion of local galaxies. In point of fact there must be something completely unknown going on in the universe. 75% of the “stuff” which makes up the universe is an unknown coined dark energy that diffuses the universe.

So you see, Paul, matter and energy that we know about are only a small fraction of what makes the universe go ’round, so to speak. Who’s to say at this point in time that this huge amount of unknown “stuff” is incapable of organization that produces intelligence? Could God be lurking in the dark energy of the universe? Can science investigate the nature of dark energy? You bet it can. The jury is still out, Paul. You don’t know half what you think you know about the nature of nature nor of what you presume to be the bounds of science’s capacity to investigate it. Hence the subject line of this article.

Update: It has been suggested in the commentary from Professor of Biology Allen MacNeil of Cornell that I don’t know what I’m talking about regarding meiosis in that there is no stage wherein 2 diploid cells are present. I present to you The Phases of Meiosis from Biology 032 at Brown University.

Meiosis begins with Interphase I. During this phase there is a duplication genetic material, DNA replication. Cells go from being 2N, 2C (N= chromosome content, C = DNA content) to 2N, 4C.

further down

In Cytokinesis I, the cells finally split, with one copy of each chromosome in each one. Each of the two resulting cells is now 2N, 2C.

Now I don’t know exactly where the good Professor MacNeil learned his elementary cell biology but where I did a 2n,2c cell is a diploid cell with the normal diploid chromosome count (2n) and the normal amount of DNA (2c). But I’d like thank the professor for keeping on my toes. For a moment there I’d thought I’d had a senior moment and forgotten basic things I learned 30 years ago.

Update 2: The preponderance of literature calls the intermediate cells 1N,2C. This appears to be just semantics. The cells contain 1n unique chromosomes but 2n total chromosomes. I can’t find a definition of “diploid” anywhere that says two identical paired chromosomes only counts as one chromosome. The situation is 23 paired chromosomes that are 100% homozygous. It’s still diploid except perhaps to a pedant.

Comments
bebbo: As for peacekeeping, Saddam Hussein did a better job of that in Iraq, though many citizens of his own country had to pay in blood for it. An oxymoron if I ever heard one. Truly incredible. -------------------------------------------------------- Dave, They are NOT somatic cells if meiosis is involved.Joseph
November 22, 2006
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And when ToE apologists say things like ToE is as well established as the theory of gravity it's just laughable. The theory of gravity can predict the precise position of the planets a million years in the future. What can the theory of evolution predict a million years into the future?DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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Allen As I hammer away with my students, scientific hypotheses are worthless if they (a) cannot be used to generate empirically testable predictions Quite so. I was thinking about writing an article on the predictive value of NDE. I think what we need focus on there are two words: "worth" and "predict". Worth is a specific value. Predict is a foretelling of the future. ToE is great at making assertions like humans and chimps share an ancestor. But does that have specific value and does it foretell the future? I'd argue little if any of the former and definitely none of the latter. I'm waiting for some ToE apologist to predict a future event in evolution where the prediction has some specific value. I say this is impossible for ToE as random mutations are by definition unpredictable. All ToE is able to do is connect dots in the history of evolution which has little if any practical value and foretells nothing about the future. I challenge anyone to predict some future dots in evolution. Those would be a foretelling of the future and have specific value. And I'm not talking about things that are based on statistical analysis of empirical observation. For instance we all know bacteria acquire resistance to new antibiotics. We need only our direct observations of bacteria to know that. In fact ToE, which has been around longer than antibiotics, didn't predict anything about bacterial response to antibiotics. ToE explained bacterial resistance only after it was observed. No value or prediction there. So tell me not how humans and chimps were linked in the past. Tell me how evolution will change humans and chimps in the future. Good luck. :razz: DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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P.Phillips you're still being moderated and I'm still not approving your comments when they're overly long and/or too far removed from connection with the thread. I killed one of them earlier today for both those reasons but mostly the former.DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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Allen The United States was the best and brightest hope of the world when it was first founded, but squandered its moral legitimacy and dishonored the legacy of those who fought and died to defend it by attempting (so far unsuccessfully) to transform itself from a republic to an empire. And so, I’m even more proud of my Scottish ancestors who sat tight on their little island in the outer Hebrides (Barra, to be exact), didn’t invade or subjugate anyone else, and were never, ever (since Kisimul castle was built around the year 1000) defeated or subjugated themselves. I thinks it's really melodramatic to say all that about the U.S. squandering its legacy and empire building. What empire would that be? Peacekeeping in Afghanistan and Iraq hardly seems like empire building to an Englishman. I can see how might to a Scotsman. And like it not since 1707 your homeland has willingly been part and parcel of Great Britain and shares credit and blame for everything done in the name of the British Empire. No one held a gun to Scotland's head to remain part of Britain. The former soviet bloc countries worship us for winning the cold war and setting them free to determine their own destiny. Is that empire building? Some increased percentage of the population of Europe might not care for us but nothing else has changed with our relation with Europe. They're still NATO members, still rely on us for defense, still host our military bases, still buy our products... in short nothing substantial has changed. Dislike of America in Europe is all bluster and no action. When they make some real gestures that go beyond empty rhetoric I'll take them seriously. Otherwise it's nothing more than a fashion trend. Nothing has really changed anywhere else in the world except we've gone from Arabs viewing us as paper tigers to real tigers. No doubt with Democrats in charge for a while we'll go back to being paper tigers and the terror attacks on US shores and our embassies and ships at sea will resume. Militant Arabs are like dogs. They sense fear and it emboldens them to attack. George Bush understands that. Weak kneed liberals don't. Show weakness to Arabs and they go for the throat. You can hide in your corner of upstate New York or on your isolated British Isle but keep in mind your redoubt is still safe because someone like me (former US Marine) was out in the big bad world keeping the bad guys away from you.DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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Joseph They're not gametes until the *end* of meiosis. Nice try. Those cells have 46 individual chromosomes arranged as 23 duplicate pairs. There's really not much more to say about it. I understand the structure now and did when I wrote the article. My mistake, if any, was not knowing that biologists call the intermediates a haploid cell as a matter of convention. I think that's wrong. They aren't haploid until the end of the process but in any case it's entirely semantics. Pedantry at its finest. If that's the best argument that can be made about what I wrote then it's not much of an argument.DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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Patrick, Dave a while back said he'd be "monitoring" my posts, so I thought that was it -- "by design". Anyway, I forgot a link, and here it is, and I did make a mistake typing "principal" instead of "principles"; I have a long reply on the "Delta and Omega" thread. Happy Thanksgiving to you all, in any event! ;) http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=9kpgc4tdP. Phillips
November 22, 2006
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Dave Scot, I think you’re my own personal “Uncommon Descent” spam filter or “censor”, so how are you?
Actually, I doubt Dave has anything to do with it. Most of your comments have been getting caught in the filter automatically and I've been letting them all through myself.Patrick
November 22, 2006
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Dave Scot, I think you're my own personal "Uncommon Descent" spam filter or "censor", so how are you? We two at least are engaged in dialog; I don't know if applying "science" to the [Christian] Bible is of value, i.e., a scientific explanation for "virgin birth". As to dark energy, Wal Thornhill shall be presenting a paper to IEEE in the summer. My own preference, of which you are aware, is that The Electric Force explains what gravity, the weakest force, cannot do, and so forces reliance of dark energy, dark matter, black holes, et al. However, electrical theorists cannot explain, since it is not observable, the "generator"; I believe there is an underlying Intellect behind our interconnected "Hologram". Yet I realize I cannot prove it, and that does not trouble me. I suppose the "big bang" is attractive to some because of creation ex nihilo ; yet given its proponents, e.g., Weinberg, Hawking, Dawkins (see alpha and omega thread), it is to me suspect.P. Phillips
November 22, 2006
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Allen MacNeill, Please accept my sincere sympathies on the loss of your baby. Was the cause trisomy 18? If so, why do you say that only chromosome 21 can be triploid? What is the difference in the trisomy of chromosome 18 and that of 21 (Downe's Syndrome) that allows you to make this distinction? Again, my condolences on your very sad loss.Charlie
November 22, 2006
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[off topic] Allen and everyone else, I'll be away starting this afternoon. I wanted to make sure I wished you a Happy Thanksgiving. regards, Salvadorscordova
November 22, 2006
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Here's a better link to FOX2P references: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=50&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=Molecular+Evolution+of+FOXP2%2C+a+gene+involved+in+speech+and+language.&btnG=SearchAllen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Start here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?num=50&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=related:WFctt36u204J:scholar.google.com/Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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I've now twice tried to post a list of published references concerning the human chromosome 2 translocation/fusion event, without success. Again, I recommend a Google Scholar search.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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**The following post seems to have been eaten by the spam filter; I will try to post it again** And here's some for the chromosome 2 translocation/fusion inference (the first is the landmark paper reporting the discovery, including an abstract; the rest provide more recent supporting evidence and applications): JW Ijdo, A Baldini, DC Ward, ST Reeders and RA Wells Origin of Human Chromosome 2: An Ancestral Telomere-Telomere Fusion. Proc. Nadl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 88, pp. 9051-9055, October 1991 Genetics ABSTRACT: We have identified two allelic genomic cosmids from human chromosome 2, c8.1 and c29B, each containing two inverted arrays of the vertebrate telomeric repeat in a head-to-head arrangement, 5'(TTAGGG)n-(CCCTAA)m3'. Sequences flanking this telomeric repeat are characteristic of present-day human pretelomeres. BAL-31 nuclease experiments with yeast artificial chromosome clones of human telomeres and fluorescence in situ hybridization reveal that sequences flanking these inverted repeats hybridize both to band 2q13 and to different, but overlapping, subsets of human chromosome ends. We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2. J. E. Horvath, C. L. Gulden, R. U. Vallente, M. Y. Eichler, M. Ventura, J. D. McPherson, T. A. Graves, R. K. Wilson, S. Schwartz, M. Rocchi, and E. E. Eichler Punctuated duplication seeding events during the evolution of human chromosome 2p11 Genome Res., July 1, 2005; 15(7): 914 - 927. S. Zhao, J. Shetty, L. Hou, A. Delcher, B. Zhu, K. Osoegawa, P. de Jong, W. C. Nierman, R. L. Strausberg, and C. M. Fraser Human, Mouse, and Rat Genome Large-Scale Rearrangements: Stability Versus Speciation Genome Res., October 1, 2004; 14(10a): 1851 - 1860. S. G. Nergadze, M. Rocchi, C. M. Azzalin, C. Mondello, and E. Giulotto Insertion of Telomeric Repeats at Intrachromosomal Break Sites During Primate Evolution Genome Res., September 1, 2004; 14(9): 1704 - 1710. M. Ventura, S. Weigl, L. Carbone, M. F. Cardone, D. Misceo, M. Teti, P. D'Addabbo, A. Wandall, E. Bjorck, P. J. de Jong, X. She, E. E. Eichler, N. Archidiacono, and M. Rocchi Recurrent Sites for New Centromere Seeding Genome Res., September 1, 2004; 14(9): 1696 - 1703. M. Ventura, J. M. Mudge, V. Palumbo, S. Burn, E. Blennow, M. Pierluigi, R. Giorda, O. Zuffardi, N. Archidiacono, M. S. Jackson, and M. Rocchi Neocentromeres in 15q24-26 Map to Duplicons Which Flanked an Ancestral Centromere in 15q25 Genome Res., September 1, 2003; 13(9): 2059 - 2068. T. K. Bera, D. B. Zimonjic, N. C. Popescu, B. K. Sathyanarayana, V. Kumar, B. Lee, and I. Pastan POTE, a highly homologous gene family located on numerous chromosomes and expressed in prostate, ovary, testis, placenta, and prostate cancer PNAS, December 24, 2002; 99(26): 16975 - 16980. Y. Fan, T. Newman, E. Linardopoulou, and B. J. Trask Gene Content and Function of the Ancestral Chromosome Fusion Site in Human Chromosome 2q13-2q14.1 and Paralogous Regions Genome Res., November 1, 2002; 12(11): 1663 - 1672. Y. Fan, E. Linardopoulou, C. Friedman, E. Williams, and B. J. Trask Genomic Structure and Evolution of the Ancestral Chromosome Fusion Site in 2q13-2q14.1 and Paralogous Regions on Other Human Chromosomes Genome Res., November 1, 2002; 12(11): 1651 - 1662. J. E. Horvath, J. A. Bailey, D. P. Locke, and E. E. Eichler Lessons from the human genome: transitions between euchromatin and heterochromatin Hum. Mol. Genet., October 1, 2001; 10(20): 2215 - 2223. M. Ventura, N. Archidiacono, and M. Rocchi Centromere Emergence in Evolution Genome Res., April 1, 2001; 11(4): 595 - 599. G. Montefalcone, S. Tempesta, M. Rocchi, and N. Archidiacono Centromere Repositioning Genome Res., December 1, 1999; 9(12): 1184 - 1188. D. B. Zimonjic, M. J. Kelley, J. S. Rubin, S. A. Aaronson, and N. C. Popescu Fluorescence in situ hybridization analysis of keratinocyte growth factor gene amplification and dispersion in evolution of great apes and humans PNAS, October 14, 1997; 94(21): 11461 - 11465.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Sorry; the links in post #52 seem to have expired. I would recommend doing a search for the bibliographic reference using Google Scholar, or going through an academic library gateway.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Did a quick Google search; here are some published references supporting the FOX2P inference: Wolfgang, E.; Prezeworski, M.; et al. Molecular Evolution of FOXP2, a gene involved in speech and language. Nature. Vol. 418. 22 August 2002. 869-872. Balter, Michael. "First 'Speech Gene' identified". Academic Press: Daily Insight. Science. 3 October 2001. http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/10032001/grapha.htm Balter, Michal. "'Spech Gene' A Debut Timed to Modern Humans". Academic Press: Daily Insight. Science. 14 August 2002. http://www.academicpress.com/inscight/08142002/grapha.htm Lai, C. S.; Fisher S. E.; et al. A forkhead-domain gene in a severe speech and language disorder. Nature. Vol. 413. No. 6855: 465-466. Bruce, H. A.; Margolis, R. L. FOXP2: novel exons, splice variants, and CAG repeat length stability. Human Genetics. Vol 111. No. 2: 136-144.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Re comment #46: "Then they accept it despite the data to the contrary. And there still isn’t any data (biological/ genetic) that demonstrates what caused the differences observed between chimps and humans. Or that any mutation/ selection can account for those differences." All three of these statements are demonstrably false. If there are "data to the contrary," please provide a reference (and remember that "data" means empirical evidence, derived from observations and experiments and preferably published in scientific journals, not theoretical speculation or unsupported assertions). And yes, there is abundant evidence supporting the inference that chimpanzees and humans descend from a common ancestor. To list just three, humans share a homeotic gene designated as FOX2P with chimpanzees. However, the human version of that gene is significantly different, and the direction of that difference is correlated with the human capacity for spoken language. Humans differ from chimpanzees and other great apes in chromosome number as well. Humans have 46; all the other great apes have 48. Human chromosome #2 contains the "missing" chromosome, however, so it didn't disappear, it's simply translocated to that chromosome (a translocation that is also correlated with some of the differences between humans and the other apes). I can provide journal references for the foregoing if requested, but it will take a while, as I am currently preparing a final exam for my biology students. If you dispute these examples, please be so kind as to provide references to the scientific literature that support your assertion.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Re comment #47: To me, it seems that an "attesting sign" is simply a form of induction, and a pretty poor one at that. Miracles are unique events by definition. As such, they cannot be used as part of an inductive argument, since such arguments are quite literally probabilistic: the more evidence one has in favor of a proposition, the higher one's confidence in the logical inference to that proposition. As such, therefore, miracles are indistinguishable from what is referred to in the natural sciences as "anecdotal evidence": interesting perhaps, but logically worthless. These are among the "rules" of "doing science", and if you want to be accepted in the community of scholars that plays by those rules, you have to play by them yourself. In other words, miracles don't count...Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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And no, I'm not interested in "swapping spit in the shower", I'm simply pointing out that it is possible to treat each other like gentlemen and scholars without necessarily agreeing. If we disagree with each others ideas, we attack the ideas with all the means at our disposal, but we treat each other with civility and respect (so long as that civility and respect are reciprocated).Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Actually, as you pointed out earlier, meiosis probably evolved as a modification of mitosis, which evolved as a modification of binary fission. This is the kind of step-wise evolution that Darwin originally proposed, and that virtually all of the observational evidence supports (notice, please, that I don't use the word "prove" - science never "proves" anything, unlike abstract mathematics). And I agree with you on the conundrum of voting the Libertarian line. I generally vote on the basis of the candidate, rather than their party affiliation. This sometimes means I don't vote. So it goes... As to the Scots in my family, they've only been in the new world a few generations, and then only in Nova Scotia. My Dad's father came here from Weymouth right after WW I, where he served in the 48th highland regiment (the "ladies from Hell" - so named because they wore kilts rather than "trews" as part of their dress uniform). The motto of the clan Neil is vincere vel mori (buaidh na bas in Scots Gaelic), "conquer or die". And my reading of history is that the Scots have never been interested in having an "empire," particularly if that meant invading and subjugating other people. Nearly all of their "disagreements" with the Sassenach stemmed from the latter's distressing tendency to invade them, rather than the other way around. True, Bonnie Prince Charlie marched on London (and didn't get there), but that was to reassert the line of James I/VI to the throne, not to subjugate the English people. If history (especially recent history) has shown us anything, it has shown us that "empire-building" is utterly incompatible with personal liberty, political stability, and peace. The United States was the best and brightest hope of the world when it was first founded, but squandered its moral legitimacy and dishonored the legacy of those who fought and died to defend it by attempting (so far unsuccessfully) to transform itself from a republic to an empire. And so, I'm even more proud of my Scottish ancestors who sat tight on their little island in the outer Hebrides (Barra, to be exact), didn't invade or subjugate anyone else, and were never, ever (since Kisimul castle was built around the year 1000) defeated or subjugated themselves.Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Does this discussion miss the point of such an "attesting sign" as the virgin birth? The Human-level objective of the miracle in question likely was to establish a germ of a small, immovable base of faith(in the old sense of the word: believing what one knows is true, in spite of limited circumstantial perspective) which would correllate with a prophetic reference in the Hebrew scriptures. This is not to mention whatever other divine objectives would be in play. Philosophically, an attesting miracle demonstrates God's power over ('interference with', to offend the materialists) nature. therefore it is quite beside the point to demonstrate that it is "impossible." Well, it would be, wouldn't it?kvwells
November 22, 2006
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Allen: The observation that this is, indeed, the case is why Michael Behe accepts descent with modification from common ancestors, as do virtually all biologists. Then they accept it despite the data to the contrary. And there still isn't any data (biological/ genetic) that demonstrates what caused the differences observed between chimps and humans. Or that any mutation/ selection can account for those differences.Joseph
November 22, 2006
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Dave, Did you read the definition in the first link you provided? The normal number of chromosomes in a somatic cell; in humans, 46 chromosomes (22 pairs of autosomes and two sex chromosomes) Somatic cells Dave. Link 2: The number of chromosomes in most cells except the gametes. In humans, the diploid number is 46. link 3: the full component of chromosomes normally found in somatic cells. In humans, the number is 46. I rest my case with my comment #18Joseph
November 22, 2006
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DaveScot said: I deleted a previous response to Robin as it was unnecessarily offensive. I found a non-offensive rebuttal. I'd prefer it if I saw the offensive responses, as well as the non-offensive ones. If you'd prefer the blog not to be polluted, then send it by email. Allen has taken on the discussion on the remainder of your post...Robin Levett
November 22, 2006
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Allen Hmmm... skipping straight up to step 6 leaves a lot of meiosis to evolve in one fell swoop does it not? re Scotland - No, Scot is my middle name and contrary to the way everyone wants to spell it, it has only 1 t in it. My ancestors centuries ago were English (been in the new world since colonial times). We built the English Empire. The Scottish Empire (if you can call it an empire) was tiny in comparison. You hitched a ride with us in 1707, moved your parliament to London, and we called the combined empire the British Empire. I'll grant that Scotsmen are fierce as individuals but we English are the ones that figured out how to be a fierce nation. Hence your family coat of arms puts family above nation and mine puts nation above family. It all makes perfect sense. I personally wouldn't dream of flying any flag above the stars and stripes but I'd respect your right to do so and any local statutes to the contrary are probably a violation of your first amendment rights. The constitution doesn't speak of how to fly the national flag so it's a right reserved to the states and they could make the statutes on those grounds but the 1st amendment freedom of expression still seems to stand in the way and the 14th amendment means the 1st applies to all the states. I tend heavily towards libertarianism (with a few exceptions to the party plank) but since my vote is thrown away if I check the L candidate (if there IS an L candidate) I vote the lesser of two evils (R). My libertarian tendency stems from thinking adults should be treated like adults and if they want to do any damn foolish thing that harms no one other than themselves then let 'em. Darwin will weed out the damn fools and we'll be better off as a herd for it in a generation or three. I grew up in upstate New York and really love it there for a lot of reasons but it's about as far from a libertarian's dream as one can get. Texas is a great improvement in that regard but it just isn't home for me and never will be no matter how long I live here. In closing, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood playing Marine Gunnery Sergeant Highway in the movie Heartbreak Ridge, just because we agree on a few things "This doesn't mean we'll be swapping spit in the shower." :-) DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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gotta get some shut-eye; will check tomorrow...Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Actually, it probably got started by the fusion of two haploid cells to form a diploid "chimera." This is very common among protists, and my friend Lynn Margulis has strongly defended the idea that the ancestors of all diploid organisms did this. Meiosis would simply be the mechanism by which the "temporary" diploids could get back to being "normal" haploids. After all, haploid organisms have a complete set of chromosomes. And then, once the haploid-haploid fusion to form diploid, followed by meiosis to form new haploid pattern became established, multicellularity followed, along with sex (with all its joys and sorrows). Lynn and her son Dorion have also proposed that the original fusion event was favored because it: (a) produced an organism that had a "backup copy" of its genome, thereby minimizing the damage caused by random mutations, and (b) allowed such organisms to use one genome to "proof-read/edit" the other. Sex, in other words, started out as editing. BTW, I just checked that old thread and read your comments about Scotland. Damn, son, are you a scot in addition to being a Scot? Is that where the Scot of DaveScot comes from? If so, we have a LOT more in common besides agnosticism... BTW, the clan Neil was on the side of Bonny Prince Charlie during the rising of '45 (and has historically had little or no respect for the Campbells of Glencoe infamy). Where might you fall on these *ahem* rather touchy issues?Allen_MacNeill
November 22, 2006
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Allen How do you think meiosis evolved? Note I'm trying to conform to convention in calling 2n cells haploid if they don't have two parents and making the distinction with 1n,2c to indicate there are really twice the number of chromosomes to work with. I'm still confused by the convention and probably got it wrong. My theory: Step 1: A 1n,1c haploid organism doubled its chromosome count through duplication. Step 2: Mitotic crossover was invented in the 1n,2c haploid above. Step 3: Segregation of the duplicate chromosomes evolved but still produced viable 1n,2c daughters. Step 4: The next mitotic division from the above failed to duplicate the DNA producing 4 1n,1c haploid daughters. Step 5: Automictic parthenogenesis where one of the 1n,1c cells from above merged with another to make a viable 1n,2c haploid. Step 6: Close proximity of single celled organisms from step 5 resulted in 1n,1c cells from two parents to merge into the 2n,2c diploid. Step 7: Automitic parthenogenesis was largely abandoned in favor of the two parent model. I just made that up on the fly. Anything in particular wrong with it that can't be fixed? DaveScot
November 22, 2006
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And I'm an agnostic too (and most emphatically NOT an atheist). I agree with T. H. Huxley (who coined the term) and Bertrand Russell (who most ably defended it): it's the only philosophically justifiable position vis-a-vis assertions that are beyond any possibility of empirical verification/falsification...Allen_MacNeill
November 21, 2006
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