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Timaeus Exposes Larry Moran

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All that follows is from UD commenter Timaeus:

Larry Moran wrote:

“I’ve been trying to teach Denyse about evolution for almost twenty years. It’s not working.”

Perhaps teaching is not your strong point, Larry. There is some empirical evidence of that, I believe.

Or perhaps it is expertise that is the problem. Last time I checked your website for your publications on evolutionary theory, I found many popular articles on ID and creationism, and some apparently self-published biochemical data on your university website. I couldn’t find a single article on evolutionary theory in a peer-reviewed journal on the subject for over 10 years into the past. For someone who has so many opinions on evolution, and voices them so loudly in non-professionally-controlled environments such as blog sites, you are surprisingly absent from the professional discussions. Perhaps you can explain the inverse relationship between your popular involvement in debates over evolution and your visibility in the technical books and articles on the subject of evolution.

It strikes me that spending hundreds of hours every year trying to convince ID people and creationists they are wrong would not be as profitable a use of a Toronto professor’s time as actually researching evolutionary mechanisms and publishing the findings at academic conferences, in books, and in journals.

[TIME PASSES]

I’ll take Larry Moran’s silence on my request for a list of his recent peer-reviewed publications in evolutionary biology as a concession that he has no such publications. I.e., I will infer that he is a commentator on debates over evolutionary theory, not an evolutionary theorist himself.

Of course, being a commentator on something is not a bad thing in itself. For someone to say: “Gould says such-and-such about evolutionary mechanisms, and Futuyma says something different, and Coyne says something different, and here are some of the points over which these men have disagreed” — that would be pedagogically useful for many readers. But that’s not the way Larry Moran has ever written about evolution.

Larry writes in this fashion: “Evolution doesn’t happen that way; it happens this way.” That is, Larry does not merely describe what the experts think, and indicate areas of possible strength in weakness in their various views, but tells his readers which views are right and which are wrong, which evolutionary biologists know what they are talking about and which don’t. He poses as someone who can referee the conflicts, who stands above all the others and can pass judgment on their scientific competence and the correctness of their theories, and, in a pinch, when none of them is right, can tell us the way evolution really happened, on his own authority. This is pretty arrogant for a guy with no recent publications in the field, and whose work (as far as I can tell) is never or rarely cited by Shapiro, Newman, Wagner, Jablonka, or any of the other currently important evolutionary theorists.

Larry has an inflated idea of his own importance within evolutionary theory. In fact, in reality, he is just one more of 10,000 guys in the world with a Ph.D. in biology or biochemistry or genetics who is under the illusion that knowing one of those fields automatically makes one an expert on evolutionary theory and evolutionary mechanisms. But the people who actually *do* evolutionary theory seem to take little notice of Larry Moran (or his blog site) at all.

Of course, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Larry regularly gets invited to big conferences on evolutionary theory to be the keynote speaker; maybe his judgments are revered around the world the way Ernst Mayr’s used to be. If so, I’ll be glad to be corrected, and to retract my statements. Someone here can write in with evidence of the hundreds of times Larry’s research on evolutionary mechanisms have been cited in the literature, with the details of the publications Larry hasn’t bothered to list on his web site, etc. What I can see for the moment, however, is that Larry Moran is a nobody in evolutionary theory, a biochemistry teacher at Toronto with an interest in evolutionary theory who is convinced he knows more about it than almost everyone else on the planet, but with no track record to corroborate that opinion.

That’s the problem with the internet age. Through web sites and blogs, it gives people the ability to be prominent, and many readers assume that prominence equals importance. But it doesn’t. The Kardashians and Paris Hilton are as prominent in popular culture as Tom Hanks or Meryl Streep, but they aren’t nearly as important. To be important, as opposed to prominent, one has to demonstrate ability. *Ability*, not the verbal fluency to hold forth on a subject on a blog site. And in science, ability is proved not on blog sites but at conferences, in articles, and in books. So what is needed is a list of Larry’s publications in these venues.

Comments
Mapou #210 I said:
I find this fussing over the qualifications of biology professors to discuss evolution rather puzzling since evolution critics seem remarkably uninformed. In particular, there is a well known result from JBS Haldane which says that if a mutation produces a 1% increase in survival, then there is a 2% chance that the mutation will be permanently “fixed” in the population. In other words, 49 out of 50 of such mutations will lose the luck of the draw and die out. This would seem to be obvious grist to the evolution skeptic’s mill, and yet I have never seen any creationist or ID proponent mention this basic fact. How many readers of UD have ever heard of this? For extra credit, what is the full formula for the fixation probability?
You responded:
It’s all irrelevant crap because it omits the fact that every living organism must have a DNA repair mechanism. Without this mechanism, everything would die. 1. If evolution via mutations/selection were true, how does the gene repair mechanism know which mutations to repair and which ones to ignore in order for evolution to work? 2. How did this indispensable gene repair mechanism evolve since it must be in place right from the start to prevent certain death and destruction? 3. Why are Darwinists and atheists so freaking stupid? What bugs you people?
My Answers: 1) The DNA repair mechanism has nothing to do with it. DNA repair has a 1% failure rate. The mutations which are NOT repaired are those which natural selection acts on. The supposition that DNA repair "knows" which mutations to fix is a pure fanasy which presumably originates with you, it has nothing to do with how natural selection works. 2) If DNA repair is essential for life, then it is part of the question of the origin of life, not life's evolution after it originated. If you care so much about these issues, surely you should know about the distinction between the evolution and the origin of life. You cannot use questions about life's origin as a stick to beat evolution, they are separate issues. 3) You think people are "stupid" if they disagree with you, but in fact it is you who doesn't understand the questions let alone the answers. Here's a simple question for you. Why is natural selection a semi-random process rather than a strictly random process? Hint: You already know of the answer, the question is whether you understand that it is the answer.tlawry
June 7, 2015
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Really Querius? You made a mistake.The result referred to by tlawry is not Haldane's dilemma/ I can see that it's a bit embarrassing that you made that mistake while trying to demonstrate your knowledge of evolutionary biology, but persisting that you've made no error (?) hardly saves face. Your own quote describes why Van Valen thought of Haldane's substitution cost arguments as a 'dilemma' for populations.wd400
June 7, 2015
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StephanB @ 219 wonders:
We? Are you two people? I am quite serious when I ask that question.
Zachriel has been asked this question on many occasions. The leading speculations here are * He is using the majestic plural * He has a tapeworm * He is host to a host of demons Zachriel responded to these speculations with an extensive list of additional possibilities. In response, other contributors then recommended psychological counseling, but I disagree. I think deworming would be more effective. ;-) -QQuerius
June 7, 2015
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SB, could you please email me? KFkairosfocus
June 7, 2015
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wd400 @ 206 persisted,
… so familiar that you confused it for something entirely different?
Actually, the predicted maximum rate of change in a genome is intimately related with the fixation (or not) of a genetic novelty. As I said, I learned this from a different source.
I don’t know why Haldane’s substitution load is called a “dilemma”.
Since you don't know where the term Haldane's dilemma originated, I looked it up in Wikipedia for you. Here's what the article said:
Origin of the term "Haldane's Dilemma" Apparently the first use of the term "Haldane's Dilemma" was by palaeontologist Leigh Van Valen in his 1963 paper "Haldane's Dilemma, Evolutionary Rates, and Heterosis". At p. 185 Van Valen writes: Haldane drew attention to the fact that in the process of the evolutionary substitution of one allele for another, at any intensity of selection and no matter how slight the importance of the locus, a substantial number of individuals would usually be lost because they did not already possess the new allele. Kimura (1960, 1961) has referred to this loss as the substitutional (or evolutional) load, but because it necessarily involves either a completely new mutation or (more usually) previous change in the environment or the genome, I like to think of it as a dilemma for the population: for most organisms, rapid turnover in a few genes precludes rapid turnover in the others. A corollary of this is that, if an environmental change occurs that necessitates the rather rapid replacement of several genes if a population is to survive, the population becomes extinct. That is, since a high number of deaths are required to fix one gene rapidly, and dead organisms do not reproduce, fixation of more than one gene simultaneously would conflict. Note that Haldane's model assumes independence of genes at different loci; if the selection intensity is 0.1 for each gene moving towards fixation, and there are N such genes, then the reproductive capacity of the species will be lowered to 0.9N times the original capacity. Therefore, if it is necessary for the population to fix more than one gene, it may not have reproductive capacity to counter the deaths.
And now you know. But my question, which you've ducked, was why was this considered a "dilemma"? -QQuerius
June 7, 2015
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Zachriel
Look, you can talk whatever gibberish you want, but if you want to be understood, then it’s important to find words that aren’t already loaded with meanings, especially in a scientific context.
I have demonstrated that you confused an argument with a definition. That confusion is evident in everything that you write. Your present comment simply amplifies that same confusion. I challenge you to explain how ID’s definition of Darwinsm is “loaded.”
In the cultural sphere, the term does have a political advantage in that it suggests a cult of personality; like Newtonist or Marxist.
ID defines “Darwinism” as naturalistic, unguided evolution. Moran defines “Darwinism” as selectivism. In order to evade that simple fact, you are wallowing in irrationality and introducing all manner of irrelevant topics.
We’re quite aware of the importance of context.
We? Are you two people? I am quite serious when I ask that question.
Moran is using it in a scientific context, while ID merely pretends to be science. If it were science, they would avoid using terms that can be so easily misconstrued. Here’s a simple example.
Neither definition can be misconstrued. Each can be clearly understood. Your comment that ID “pretends” to be science is refuted by the fact that you don’t even know what ID is arguing.
Moran: I’m not a Darwinist. This thread: Yes you are! Nanny nanny boo-boo!!
Did you not even read the article you alluded to? Moran acknowledges both definitions. He just wants to forget about the first one, so he says that it no longer applies in any context. He is obviously wrong. . In fact, he is a Darwinist according to his first definition and a non-Darwinist according to his second definition. His claim that the second definition supplanted the first definition is not true. He would just prefer not to deal with that aspect of it---and with good reason. Here is what is really going on. Darwinists realize that natural selection is not up to the task, so, in desperation, they are now beginning to place the same mindless faith in genetic drift that they once placed in natural selection. The fact remains that there is no evidence that any naturalistic process can produce biodiversity or drive the evolutionary process through all the taxonomic levels. It is a total act of faith on the part of Darwinists. You (or Moran) can produce no evidence that any natural process can produce biodiversity because no such evidence exists.
No. There’s no scientific debate because there is no scientific debate. ID only exists as a cultural and political phenomenon.
No scientific debate? How can you say that when you do not even know what ID is arguing? I challenge you to summarize ID’s argument.StephenB
June 7, 2015
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Zachriel:
Mapou: How did this indispensable gene repair mechanism evolve since it must be in place right from the start to prevent certain death and destruction? It’s thought that simple replicators, such as RNA polymers, started the process without the need for a repair mechanism.
And this makes sense to you? This is science because of what again? Man, go sit in a corner or something. You're boring.Mapou
June 7, 2015
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soundburger: Nothing wrong with that, as there is a cult of personality formed around Charles Darwin. That’s why there is a Darwin Day and why Larry Moran has named his site Sandwalk. Yeah, like people who worship the idol of Newton. http://idkpal.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/img_3858.jpg Or those Einsteinists. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Einstein_tongue.jpgZachriel
June 7, 2015
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Zachriel writes, "In the cultural sphere, the term does have a political advantage in that it suggests a cult of personality; like Newtonist or Marxist." Nothing wrong with that, as there is a cult of personality formed around Charles Darwin. That's why there is a Darwin Day and why Larry Moran has named his site Sandwalk. It's also why Alfred Russel Wallace rarely is mentioned by people such as Moran, Coyne and Dawkins. His research and theorizing were fine, but his conclusions and, let's face it, his spiritualism, just aren't seen as helpful to the cause.soundburger
June 7, 2015
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StephenB: The debate between selectionism and neutralism is not directly relevant to the debate between design and non-design. No, but there's no scientific debate over design in biology, other than the implications of human design. StephenB: That debate allows only one definition of Darwinism, ie. evolution by naturalistic means alone. Argument by fiat. StephenB: The term “Darwinism” is not an argument. It is a descriptive label that ID uses to identify those who embrace naturalistic, unguided evolution, which includes both selectivists and neutralists. Look, you can talk whatever gibberish you want, but if you want to be understood, then it's important to find words that aren't already loaded with meanings, especially in a scientific context. In the cultural sphere, the term does have a political advantage in that it suggests a cult of personality; like Newtonist or Marxist. StephenB: It appears that you cannot grasp the difference between those two descriptive terms and the contexts in which they are being used. We're quite aware of the importance of context. Moran is using it in a scientific context, while ID merely pretends to be science. If it were science, they would avoid using terms that can be so easily misconstrued. Here's a simple example.
Moran: I'm not a Darwinist. This thread: Yes you are! Nanny nanny boo-boo!!
StephenB: There is no scientific debate because you say so. No. There's no scientific debate because there is no scientific debate. ID only exists as a cultural and political phenomenon. soundburger: In the case of names, in addition to Darwinist, well known ones are Peronist, Maoist, and in Spanish, Sandinista. There really aren’t any such ‘-ist’ usages for scientists, that I can think of. They inevitably are used in cases of ideologies, whether political or economical. And that’s what Darwinism is. It’s an ideology that is based on the idea that Charles Darwin’s theory and writings have made it possible to be, in Richard Dawkins’ words (which Larry used to quote on his home page) a ‘intellectually fulfilled atheist’. Case in point. Notice how the term is being used to describe a cult of personality rather than a scientific theory. You might want to clean up your own domain before insisting that the scientific community adopt your usage. Mapou: How did this indispensable gene repair mechanism evolve since it must be in place right from the start to prevent certain death and destruction? It's thought that simple replicators, such as RNA polymers, started the process without the need for a repair mechanism.Zachriel
June 7, 2015
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Curly wrote: "I’m going with fairytale." It doesn't surprise that Curly would go with a fairy tale. That's about the epistemological status of the Darwinian account of the origin of new body plans, and he goes for that one, too.Timaeus
June 7, 2015
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Moreover, the approach isn't even original. L'évolution biochimique Yet Larry Moran, half a century later, "wrote the book." lolMung
June 7, 2015
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Is stupid a prerequisite for being an ID critic?Mung
June 7, 2015
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Biochemist Marcel Florkin was born in Liege, Belgium on August 15, 1900. Florkin became the first chair of the newly formed Department of Biochemistry on the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Liege in 1934... ...Florkin published over sixty scientific volumes and came to be recognized as one of the founders of modern biochemistry.
But Larry Moran gets all the credit, after all, "the guy literally wrote the book on biochemistry." In 1994, no less. Hilarious.Mung
June 7, 2015
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tlawry:
I find this fussing over the qualifications of biology professors to discuss evolution rather puzzling since evolution critics seem remarkably uninformed. In particular, there is a well known result from JBS Haldane which says that if a mutation produces a 1% increase in survival, then there is a 2% chance that the mutation will be permanently “fixed” in the population. In other words, 49 out of 50 of such mutations will lose the luck of the draw and die out. This would seem to be obvious grist to the evolution skeptic’s mill, and yet I have never seen any creationist or ID proponent mention this basic fact. How many readers of UD have ever heard of this? For extra credit, what is the full formula for the fixation probability?
It's all irrelevant crap because it omits the fact that every living organism must have a DNA repair mechanism. Without this mechanism, everything would die. 1. If evolution via mutations/selection were true, how does the gene repair mechanism know which mutations to repair and which ones to ignore in order for evolution to work? 2. How did this indispensable gene repair mechanism evolve since it must be in place right from the start to prevent certain death and destruction? 3. Why are Darwinists and atheists so freaking stupid? What bugs you people?Mapou
June 6, 2015
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Thanks, bFast From an online dictionary: "-ist: a suffix of nouns, often corresponding to verbs ending in -ize or nouns ending in -ism, that denote a person who practices or is concerned with something, or holds certain principles, doctrines, etc.: apologist; dramatist; machinist; novelist; realist; socialist; Thomist." In the case of names, in addition to Darwinist, well known ones are Peronist, Maoist, and in Spanish, Sandinista. There really aren't any such '-ist' usages for scientists, that I can think of. They inevitably are used in cases of ideologies, whether political or economical. And that's what Darwinism is. It's an ideology that is based on the idea that Charles Darwin's theory and writings have made it possible to be, in Richard Dawkins' words (which Larry used to quote on his home page) a 'intellectually fulfilled atheist'. Charles Darwin can thus be seen as a standard bearer of a movement to do away with reasons for believing in god, and he remains that today even as his theories are gradually being replaced. As I wrote before, Larry's greatest notoriety comes not as a scientist, but an atheism advocate, and from his own web page it is obvious that Charles Darwin is a personal hero of his. Thus, he is a Darwinist. There really isn't any valid argument he can make to the contrary.soundburger
June 6, 2015
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soundburger (204), well said. Larry Moran is clearly a Darwinist by his own confession -- no matter what he says.bFast
June 6, 2015
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Oh Timaeus, it's a submitted correction now? Last time it was just an email asking the researcher if they made a mistake, and they commended you on your attention to detail. Is this a fish story or just a plain old fairytale? I'm going with fairytale.Curly Howard
June 6, 2015
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... so familiar that you confused it for something entirely different? I don't know why Haldane's substitution load is called a "dilemma".wd400
June 6, 2015
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wd400, What I said was true. I'm familiar with Haldane's dilemma. The computations regarding the difficulty of a hypothetical beneficial mutation from taking hold in a genome, I got from a different source. So, why is it called Haldane’s dilemma? -QQuerius
June 6, 2015
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Seriously, as with so many other things about Larry Moran, it is just nitpicking and manufactured outrage that he pretends to take offense at being called a "Darwinist". His blog is called Sandwalk. On the home page you can see a depiction of the Sandwalk with this explanation, "The Sandwalk is the path behind the home of Charles Darwin where he used to walk every day, thinking about science. You can see the path in the woods in the upper left-hand corner of this image." He also posts two quotes from Darwin on his home page, both of which are related to how his own theory dispels the notion of design in nature. So, yes, Larry Moran, you are a Darwinist. Huff and puff all you want.soundburger
June 6, 2015
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What? The result tlawry is talking about is from Haldane, but not his so-called dilemma which is preceeds bu about 30 years.wd400
June 6, 2015
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So why is it called Haldane's dilemma?Querius
June 6, 2015
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Ok, but what about the result tlawry is talking about?wd400
June 6, 2015
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Wow, 200 posts! tlawry, yes, I'm familiar with Haldane's dilemma as a sort of evolutionary speed limit. -QQuerius
June 6, 2015
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Zachriel
The debate is between largely between selectionism and neutralism.
The debate between selectionism and neutralism is not directly relevant to the debate between design and non-design. I have already pointed that out. SB: That debate allows only one definition of Darwinism, ie. evolution by naturalistic means alone.
That’s just silly. Semantics don’t make for an argument, though using words willy-nilly can lead to confusion.
You are very confused. We are not, for the moment, talking about arguments, we are talking about the appropriateness of the descriptive labels that are being used. It isn’t even possible to have a rational discussion unless terms are defined in the proper context. Do you understand the difference between a descriptive label and an argument? It appears that you do not. The term “Darwinism” is not an argument. It is a descriptive label that ID uses to identify those who embrace naturalistic, unguided evolution, which includes both selectivists and neutralists. It is also a descriptive label that Moran uses to differentiate between one kind of naturalistic evolution (selectivism) and another kind of naturalistic evolution (neutralism). It appears that you cannot grasp the difference between those two descriptive terms and the contexts in which they are being used.
Perhaps, but sticking a label on it doesn’t constitute an argument, and in this case, just leads to confusion. Margulis is a darwinist, but Moran is not.
Of course a label doesn’t constitute and argument. It constitutes a categorical description. As I explained earlier, the context of the debate determines the definition or the categorical description of Darwinism. You evaded that point, presumably because it is an inconvenient truth. In the context of the debate between designed evolution and naturalistic evolution, both Moran and Margulis are Darwinists. In the context of selectivism vs neutralism, neither Margulis or Moran are Darwinists. There is no universal, non contextual, definition of Darwinism. I don’t know why that point is so difficult for you to grasp.
The actual scientific debate has been over how important neutral theory is to evolution. Moran is steeped in that controversy. There is no scientific debate over ID.
Oh, I get it. It's over because you say so. There is no scientific debate because you say so. Sorry, things don't work that way. In fact, there is plenty of evidence for design in biology. On the other hand, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim that naturalistic processes alone, whether described in selectivist or neutral terms, can produce biodiversity. If you disagree, please produce the evidence.StephenB
June 6, 2015
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I find this fussing over the qualifications of biology professors to discuss evolution rather puzzling since evolution critics seem remarkably uninformed. In particular, there is a well known result from JBS Haldane which says that if a mutation produces a 1% increase in survival, then there is a 2% chance that the mutation will be permanently "fixed" in the population. In other words, 49 out of 50 of such mutations will lose the luck of the draw and die out. This would seem to be obvious grist to the evolution skeptic's mill, and yet I have never seen any creationist or ID proponent mention this basic fact. How many readers of UD have ever heard of this? For extra credit, what is the full formula for the fixation probability?tlawry
June 6, 2015
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StephenB: Moran uses the term in order to make it appear as if the debate is about naturalism vs neutralism. The debate is between largely between selectionism and neutralism. StephenB: Accordingly, the only way to distinguish guided evolution from unguided evolution is to classify the first paradigm as ID and the second paradigm as Darwinism. Ignoring our objections don't make them go away. As already pointed out, it's a false dichotomy. There may be many naturalistic theories of evolution. StephenB: That debate allows only one definition of Darwinism, ie. evolution by naturalistic means alone. That's just silly. Semantics don't make for an argument, though using words willy-nilly can lead to confusion. StephenB: The dichotomy between design and no design is real. Perhaps, but sticking a label on it doesn't constitute an argument, and in this case, just leads to confusion. Margulis is a darwinist, but Moran is not. StephenB: Moran seeks to muddle that issue. The actual scientific debate has been over how important neutral theory is to evolution. Moran is steeped in that controversy. There is no scientific debate over ID. StephenB: ID claims that design is real and scientifically detectable Can't get much vaguer than that. This is what is meant by being specific: Humans and hamsters share a common ancestor. Bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics. Tyrannosaurus Rex once roamed the Earth.Zachriel
June 6, 2015
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Zachriel
As already stated, the term has many related definitions. In biology, darwinian often refers to evolution by natural selection. That is certainly how Moran uses the term. http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2.....inist.html
No, that definition is irrelevant to main problem of design vs. no design. Moran uses the term in order to make it appear as if the debate is about naturalism vs neutralism. That is a separate issue. StephenB: Accordingly, the only way to distinguish guided evolution from unguided evolution is to classify the first paradigm as ID and the second paradigm as Darwinism.
Lynn Margulis once said “It was like confessing a murder when I discovered I was not a neo-Darwinist… I am definitely a Darwinist though.” She meant that selection was the mechanism by which new variations became fixed in a population, but that the sources of variation were much more complex than allowed in naïve neo-darwinian thought.
Irrelevant to the debate over design vs. the appearance of design. That debate allows only one definition of Darwinism, ie. evolution by naturalistic means alone. Lynn Margulis is a Darwinist insofar as she objects to ID, but she is a non-Darwinist insofar as she objects to the primacy of natural selection. The meaning of Darwinism is decided by the context of the debate. SB: [The issue is, and always has been, guided evolution vs. unguided evolution—ID vs. Darwinism.]
It’s not that Darwinism is never used that way, but the problem with it is that the use conflicts with a common scientific meaning.
That is the only way the term can be used in the context of ID (design is real) and Darwinistic evolution (design is an illusion). If you know of another way to frame the issue in that context, I am open to it.
Another problem is you have set up a false dichotomy. Even if we accept Darwinism to mean the modern theory of evolution, falsifying the modern theory doesn’t necessarily mean some other natural theory couldn’t be devised.
The issue has nothing to do with what may be claimed in the future. It is about using labels to describe what is being claimed right now. The dichotomy between design and no design is real. If guided evolution is true, then both natural and neutral evolution are false. If either natural or neutral evolution is true, then guided evolution is false. Moran seeks to muddle that issue.
Furthermore, ID is a vague and general claim, not a scientific theory, while Darwinism and modern evolutionary theory are scientific theories.
Nope. ID claims that design is real and scientifically detectable; Darwinism (both natural and neutral) claims that design is illusionary and cannot, therefore, be detected. That is the essence of the debate. There is only one way to characterize that debate: ID vs. Darwinism. If you know of another, please disclose it. (This is my second challenge.)StephenB
June 6, 2015
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kf, I don't know that Joe was banned but I thought it was a reasonable inference. Mapou seems to be confirming it.Mung
June 6, 2015
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6
06
2015
10:18 AM
10
10
18
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 9

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