Top Vatican official says Catholic scientists should “come out”

_{Denyse O'Leary

May 21, 2017

Intelligent Design, News, Religion, Science}

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From John L. Allen, Jr., at Crux Now:

Most basically, Consolmagno said, it’s important to maintain the proper distinction between what science can prove, and what faith can add.
“God is not something we arrive at the end of our science, it’s what we assume at the beginning,” he said, adding emphatically: “I am afraid of a God who can be proved by science, because I know my science well enough to not trust it!”

More.

Excuse us. Faith can add nothing to what cannot be demonstrated. Many popular theories such as the multiverse, Darwinism, alt right eugenics, cannot be demonstrated at all.

So, translation from Consolmagno: Not to worry, we really are theistic naturalists: Nature is all there is. But we do still have a right to holler fer Gawd in our spare time. Don’t we?

Yes, so long as we ignore the fact that naturalism is rotting science.

See also: Pope Francis and science

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Comments

Marfin - isn't that fossil a test in itself? Not a hr rd and fast one one its own, but still a test. Let's see if the suggestion that humans evolved in Europe pans out - I would imagine that there will be a lot of discussion about the validity of this claim, and what exactly it really is.Bob O'H_{May 23, 2017
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RVB8- Science is not just opinion it is testing, experimentation,re-testing, etc, so once again I asked how do you test fossils.I can bring you a bag of nuts, bolts, screws,rivets,nails, etc and ask you to make a family tree of said item based on when they were first invented and you could make a nice tree , but how would you test that your tree is correct and not just the pattern you feel is correct. So a specific fossil how do you know it really is the ancestor to something else .If you check the news this morning you will see , the earliest fossil on mans lineage , is now believed to be European and not Africian, So give those guys a call RVB8 tell them you know how to test this fossil so they can verify their claims, or tell them the truth which is you kick over a stone find a new fossil and hey presto mans lineage is re written , AGAIN.Marfin_{May 23, 2017
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Ah, I see, Florabama. the fossil record doesn't provide any evidence for a Designer. You are just claiming that it doesn't provide any evidence for evolution.Bob O'H_{May 22, 2017
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Dionisio, @3 you quote extensively from the Bible, I'll assume KJV, my favourite. @5 you then assume a patronising voice that doesn't sit well with your chosen historic reading sources. Florabama, mocks my point that fossils prove evolution, and you back him up. But fossils do prove evolution, we see that in the way they are found in strata of descending age, with older fossils always (not sometimes, or often) found in the deeper strata. It is imperfect, but filling out nicely. Even a cursory glance at an imperfect source, Wikipedia, shows a huge bank of fossils, all in agreement with one another. Fossils are a superb evidence for evolution. So much so that they allow paleontologists to guess where the next fossils may be found. That is what happened with Tiktaalik, when evolutionary biologist Neill Shubin predicted the location, rock age, and likely ancient environment, this transitional animal would be in. ID makes no such predictions as it is all philosophy, theology, the law, public opinion, and school districts.rvb8_{May 22, 2017
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"I trust you are suggesting that invoking a Designer is part of an explanation for the pattern Prothero observes. Is this so, and if so what is the explanation?" Not sure I understand your question. Prothero would certainly not invoke a designer for the explanation of the lack of demonstrable evolution in the fossil record (just as Crick did not invoke God but aliens for the fact that abiogenesis was impossible). Of course, neither did Eldredge and Gould invoke a designer which was the whole point of Punk Eek -- to explain the lack of evidence in the fossil record for gradual evolution. None of that changes the fact that their admission is in line with what creationists have said all along, and by any objective criteria, the fact that the fossil record is a testament to stasis, supports a creationist/I.D. interpretation of the evidence and not that of Darwinism.Florabama_{May 22, 2017
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Florabama - when you quote this
“In four of the biggest climatic-vegetational events of the last 50 million years, the mammals and birds show no noticeable change in response to changing climates. No matter how many presentations I give where I show these data, no one (including myself) has a good explanation yet for such widespread stasis despite the obvious selective pressures of changing climate.” (Prothero, Donald E., “Darwin’s Legacy,” eSkeptic Magazine, skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-02-15/)
and then write this
You are right the fossil record is filled with evidence — you just have it bassackwards. The fossil record is one of the greatest evidences for a Designer.
I trust you are suggesting that invoking a Designer is part of an explanation for the pattern Prothero observes. Is this so, and if so what is the explanation?Bob O'H_{May 22, 2017
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Florabama @4, Please be nicer to the politely dissenting interlocutors. :) They seem to lack what is required in order to have serious discussions. Also their situation seems to be between a rock and a hard place. The future doesn't look encouraging to them. Many new biology-related discoveries seem to make the complex complexity even more complex, thus shrinking their "Darwinism-of-the-gaps" which is the foundation of their beliefs. Let's show compassion to them. Let's be magnanimous in victory. Let's invite them to joint us in the rejoicing! They might change their mind. Miracles happen! I'm a testimony of that. I don't think there's another area of modern science more fascinating than biology these days. We ain't seen nothing' yet. The best discoveries are still ahead. Let's fasten our seatbelts. The ride is just starting. This long and winding road through biology research leads to the doubtless confirmation of the amazing design of the biological systems. Work in progress... stay tuned. Have a good week!Dionisio_{May 22, 2017
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"Darwinism does have physical evidence, they’re called fossils." Hahahaha! Maybe you missed this in all your research, rvb8: “In other words, when the assumed evolutionary processes did not match the pattern of fossils that they were supposed to have generated, the pattern was judged to be ‘wrong.’ A circular argument arises: interpret the fossil record in terms of a particular theory of evolution, inspect the interpretation, and note that it confirms the theory. Well, it would, wouldn’t it? …As is now well known, most fossil species appear instantaneously in the record, persist for some millions of years virtually unchanged, only to disappear abruptly – the ‘punctuated equilibrium’ pattern of Eldredge and Gould.” (Kemp, Tom S., “A Fresh Look at the Fossil Record,” New Scientist, vol. 108, 1985, pp. 66-67.) Or this: “In four of the biggest climatic-vegetational events of the last 50 million years, the mammals and birds show no noticeable change in response to changing climates. No matter how many presentations I give where I show these data, no one (including myself) has a good explanation yet for such widespread stasis despite the obvious selective pressures of changing climate.” (Prothero, Donald E., “Darwin’s Legacy,” eSkeptic Magazine, skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-02-15/) Or this: “Stasis is a common (I would say the dominant) pattern of anatomical (non)change in the evolutionary history of species; …And, of course, given a concatenation of many separate ‘punctuated equilibria’ events all happening more or less at the same time, Darwin, armed with his particular conception of evolution through natural selection, must have felt totally helpless in the face of such a monstrous pattern. He could blame stasis on a poor geological record, but faced with paleontologists talking up Cuvierian patterns, Darwin simply cut and ran.” (Eldredge, Niles, “Confessions of a Darwinist,” http://www.vqronline.org/vqr-portfolio/confessions-darwinist Spring 2006.) Or this: “A localized population…suddenly appear(s) on the scene and then continue(s) essentially unchanged until [they] become(s) extinct.” (Mayr, Ernst, What Evolution Is, Basic Books, 2001 p. 63.) Or this: "Eldredge and Gould proposed that the degree of gradualism commonly attributed to Charles Darwin is virtually nonexistent in the fossil record, and that stasis dominates the history of most fossil species.” Wikipedia, Punctuated equilibrium You are right the fossil record is filled with evidence -- you just have it bassackwards. The fossil record is one of the greatest evidences for a Designer.Florabama_{May 22, 2017
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Faith Hebrews 11:1-3,6; 12:1-2 (ESV)
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
This famous discourse on faithful men and women of the Old Testament begins and ends with commentary that alerts the reader to the specific aspect of Old Testament faith highlighted here—the certainty of receiving what God has promised but not yet given (vv. 1, 2, 39, 40). Although no human witnessed the creation, we know from Scripture that God brought the world into being through His Word (Ps. 33:6, 9). We discern that “what is seen” is not ultimate, self-existent reality. [John 1:1] Faith is an absolute necessity, whether to perceive the things for which we should hope (v. 1), to understand that God is the Creator of all (v. 3), or to offer acceptable worship (v. 4). See “Pleasing God” at 1 Thess. 2:4. things hoped for . . . things not seen. For the time being, only faith can see the future, as it receives the promises of God. received their commendation. God declared that they were righteous by faith (v. 4 note), as is explicitly stated regarding Abel and Enoch (vv. 4, 5; cf. v. 39). did not receive what was promised. Although some Old Testament promises were fulfilled, their true hope (the promise of the coming Messiah) was yet to come (v. 33 and note). This verse summarizes the message of vv. 13–16 and applies it to the second half of the chapter. something better . . . apart from us. This verse asserts both the redemptive-historical difference between the Old Testament and New Testament periods, and the unity of the people of God in both eras. Though the Old Testament believers lived by faith (10:38), they were not privileged to witness on earth the fulfillment of the great promise of God. Nevertheless, they too participate in the benefits of Christ’s high-priestly work, and, along with new covenant saints, they are “made perfect.” Those of the old and new eras together await the perfection that will appear only at the Second Coming (12:26; 13:14; Rom. 8:18; Eph. 1:9, 10). cloud of witnesses. The readers are in effect running a race before a great crowd of people who have already finished the race with honors. Their example encourages the readers, and admonishes them if they should stumble. every weight, and sin which clings so closely. Among the burdens to be thrown off are fear that shrinks back in the face of suffering (10:38, 39), bitter discouragement that defiles others through doubt (v. 15), and sensuality that seeks immediate gratification (v. 16). run . . . the race. The athletic competitions of the Greeks provided a common New Testament analogy for the Christian life (1 Cor. 9:24–27; Phil. 2:16; 2 Tim. 2:5; 4:7, 8). Like a runner, the Christian must be in constant motion toward the goal despite opposition. This demands strenuous effort and endurance, which is learned from constant discipline.
Dionisio_{May 22, 2017
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Excuse us. Faith can add nothing to what cannot be demonstrated.
Well done, you've just told us that your faith in God doesn't add anything. The reason you need faith is that it is in something that cannot be demonstrated (this may not be the same thing as saying that there's no evidence for it, of course), otherwise you hardly need faith in it: you have solid evidence.Bob O'H_{May 21, 2017
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News for o'Leary, or O'Leary for News, Darwinism does have physical evidence, they're called fossils. Eugenics also has testable facts, and is actually correct in its theory; it is also inhuman, and I will always fight it. Alt-right racism, is silly as humanity is one species, so there is no provable advantage to being one specific race. The multiverse? You are correct hard to prove; maybe in the future. O'Leary for News, or News for O'Leary, what's your point? That Catholicism is weird? We already new that. That it's out of date? Really!? Why Catholicism, why not Islam, Protestantism, Judaeism, Hinduism? Why the Pope, and his hangers on?rvb8_{May 21, 2017
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