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Torley’s paradox and the difference between “possibility” and “capability”: A reply to Larry Moran

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In two comments attached to his latest post over at Sandwalk, Professor Larry Moran argues that even a very unlikely naturalistic scenario would be a better explanation of irreducible complexity than a vague Intelligent Design hypothesis. Taken to its logical conclusion, Moran’s argument implies a paradoxical result (which I’ll refer to as Torley’s paradox): that for any specified pattern which we find in Nature, no matter how complex it may turn out to be, any naturalistic explanation of that pattern which appeals to specific processes – even astronomically unlikely ones – will always be superior to an explanation which invokes Intelligent Design in purely general terms (“Some intelligent being produced this pattern”). As we’ll see, the reason why Moran’s argument generates this odd result is that he confuses possibility with capability. (I should point out that when I use the term “naturalistic” in this post, I am not intending to contrast “natural” explanations with supernatural ones, but with artificial, or intelligently guided ones. Obviously, an intelligent designer need not always be a Deity.)

(Note to readers: I don’t like to claim credit for ideas which other people have already had, so if any reader can alert me to a writer who has previously drawn attention to the paradox I discuss below, then I will gladly rename it in their honor.)

Getting Behe wrong

In his latest post, Professor Moran reports on a 2011 paper by J. Lukeš, J.M. Archibald, P.J. Keeling, W.F. Doolittle, and M.W. Gray, titled, “How a neutral evolutionary ratchet can build cellular complexity” (International Union of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology (IUBMB) Life 63: 528-537). The authors summarize their paper as follows:

Complex cellular machines and processes are commonly believed to be products of selection, and it is typically understood to be the job of evolutionary biologists to show how selective advantage can account for each step in their origin and subsequent growth in complexity. Here, we describe how complex machines might instead evolve in the absence of positive selection through a process of “presuppression,” first termed constructive neutral evolution (CNE) more than a decade ago.If an autonomously functioning cellular component acquires mutations that make it dependent for function on another, pre-existing component or process, and if there are multiple ways in which such dependence may arise, then dependence inevitably will arise and reversal to independence is unlikely. Thus, CNE is a unidirectional evolutionary ratchet leading to complexity, if complexity is equated with the number of components or steps necessary to carry out a cellular process. CNE can explain ‘‘functions’’ that seem to make little sense in terms of cellular economy, like RNA editing or splicing, but it may also contribute to the complexity of machines with clear benefit to the cell, like the ribosome, and to organismal complexity over-all. We suggest that CNE-based evolutionary scenarios are in these and other cases less forced than the selectionist or adaptationist narratives that are generally told.

Commenting on this research, Professor Moran writes:

This is a perfectly reasonable scenario for the evolution of irreducible complexity. Anyone who claims that the very existence of irreducibly complexity means that a structure could not have evolved is wrong…

All that’s required is that evolutionary biologists propose a reasonable explanation making it possible for such structures to evolve naturally in a world where gods play no role in evolution. That has been done. The idea that irreducibly complex structures are impossible to evolve has been falsified.

When a reader named Bilbo commented that Professor Michael Behe had already responded to the paper by Lukeš et al., Professor Moran wrote a comment of his own in reply, in which he misrepresented Behe’s position, while putting forward a fallacious argument against Intelligent Design (emphases mine – VJT):

Behe parrots the standard creationist objections to anything they don’t like. He demands evidence and calculations. He claims that the scenario seems impossible (to him).

He misses the point. It’s a possible scenario for the evolution of an irreducibly complex structure. Even if it’s very unlikely (it isn’t) it still refutes the argument that evolution of such systems is impossible.

It always amazes me that creationists demand solid evidence and mathematical calculations for all hypothetical explanations based on evolution but they aren’t willing to provide even a brief explanation of how intelligent design works, let alone evidence or calculations. “God did it” seems to be sufficient explanation for every perceived gap.

Any truly honest creationist has to admit that there are several ways for irreducibly complex systems to evolve by natural means. But once they admit that, they don’t have a case. Behe can’t admit that the simple scenario described above is even possible because it means that his first book is wrong. He has to show that the scheme shown in the first figure above is impossible. He can’t do that.

When Bilbo objected that Professor Moran was misrepresenting Behe’s position, Moran doubled down (capital letters are Moran’s; emphases are mine):

Please stop trying to shift the burden of proof. Creationists argue that it is IMPOSSIBLE for irreducibly complex systems to evolve by natural means therefore there must be an intelligent designer. Do you believe that the evolution of irreducibly complex structures is IMPOSSIBLE? If so, has someone demonstrated the truth of that claim?

I’ve just described a way to evolve irreducible complexity without the need of an intelligent designer. You have to prove to me that it’s impossible, otherwise your argument for the existence of gods collapses.

In a later comment, Professor Moran fired a final parting shot at Intelligent Design advocates:

But no one is interested in the mere possibility of a god or gods that build irreducibly complex systems from time to time. We want to know if that’s plausible or probable. Show me your calculations.

Now, I should point out here that Professor Moran totally misrepresented Dr. Michael Behe’s argument. In his first book, Darwin’s Black Box (Free Press, first edition, 1996), Professor Behe freely conceded that “if a system is irreducibly complex (and thus cannot have been produced directly), however, one can not definitely rule out the possibility of an indirect, circuitous route” (1996, p. 40). What Behe declared impossible was not the evolution of an irreducibly complex system via unguided natural processes, but the direct evolution of an irreducibly complex system via incremental adaptations: “An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional” (1996, p. 39). Moran should be aware of this fact, since he has a copy of Behe’s book, so I can only conclude that he is deliberately distorting Behe’s words and setting up a straw man for the amusement of his readers.

Moran also claims that Professor Behe, in his response to the paper by Lukeš et al., “claims that the scenario seems impossible (to him).” That’s just flat-out false. What Behe actually says is: “I think their hypothesis of CNE [constructive neutral evolution – VJT] as the cause for the interaction of hundreds of proteins — or even a handful — is quite implausible.” “Implausible” and “impossible” are very different terms, Professor Moran.

Getting to Torley’s paradox

But Larry Moran may not have noticed that the argument he puts forward in his comments has a paradoxical implication. It would mean that for any pattern that we happen to observe in Nature, regardless of how complex and specified it is, we would never be justified in drawing the general inference: this pattern was designed by an unknown intelligent agent. What’s more, if Moran’s argument is right, then any specific hypothesis – no matter how far-fetched or unlikely – for how this or that unguided process could have produced the pattern in question would be superior to the general hypothesis that some intelligent agent had produced it.

Why do I say that? Let’s look at Moran’s own words:

It always amazes me that creationists demand solid evidence and mathematical calculations for all hypothetical explanations based on evolution but they aren’t willing to provide even a brief explanation of how intelligent design works, let alone evidence or calculations…

…[N]o one is interested in the mere possibility of a god or gods that build irreducibly complex systems from time to time. We want to know if that’s plausible or probable. Show me your calculations.

In other words, Moran thinks that the only thing we can positively say about a generalized intelligent agent is that there is a possibility of it building a given irreducibly complex system S. We can’t infer that such an occurrence is probable, however, as we have no way of predicting what such an agent would do, in the absence of a more detailed description of the agent itself.

But if that’s the argument that Moran is making, then we can go further, and push it to its logical conclusion. After all, the number of irreducibly complex systems that a generalized intelligent agent might produce is infinite, since there is no limit to the variety of possible patterns that an intelligent agent could generate. (This or that intelligent agent may be limited in what it can generate, but an intelligent agent whose nature is left unspecified would not be subject to any constraints.) Hence the probability that an intelligent agent in general would produce any particular complex system S turns out to be 1 divided by infinity, or an infinitesimal number, which is indistinguishable from zero.

By contrast, if we consider any specific hypothesis – no matter how inherently unlikely it may be – describing how an unguided process P might have produced a system S, which exhibits a high degree of specified complexity, then the probability that P will produce S will always be measurably greater than zero, even if this probability is astronomically low. Since 1/N (where N is large and finite) is necessarily greater than 1/infinity, it follows that any explanation of a specified complex system S which invokes an unguided process P will always be better than an explanation which invokes a nondescript intelligent agent.

Carl Sagan’s Contact and the signal from space

Readers who watched the 1997 movie Contact will recall that the action begins with the discovery of a signal featuring a repeating sequence of prime numbers. The signal is apparently being sent from the star Vega, but later on in the movie, Dr. Eleanor Arroway, who works for SETI, eventually makes contact with an advanced civilization on an unknown planet, which is capable of constructing and traveling through wormholes.

In any case, the point I’d like to make here is that if a signal featuring a repeating sequence of the first 100 primes (say) were detected in outer space, then even if scientists were unable to locate the source of the signal, the inference, “This signal was produced by an unknown intelligent agent” would be a perfectly reasonable one. I think Professor Moran would agree with this point. But the problem is that his own argument would disallow us from drawing this obvious conclusion. On Moran’s argument, the probability that “an unknown intelligent agent” would send a signal containing the first 100 primes is infinitesimally low, as there are infinitely many possibilities for it to choose from, when sending a signal. On the other hand, the probability that even a vastly improbable natural process – such as Hoyle’s “tornado in a junkyard” – would produce such a repeating signal is measurably greater than zero, despite being astronomically low: it’s 1/N, for some very large but finite value of N. So if Moran’s argument is correct, then the inference, “This signal was produced by an unknown intelligent agent” would be an unreasonable one. That, I have to say, is a massively counter-intuitive result, to put it mildly.

Possibility vs. capability: the error in Professor Moran’s logic

So, what is the fallacy in Professor Moran’s argument? The flaw, as I see it, is that Moran confuses the notion of mere possibility with the more robust notion of capability. We can say that it is possible for an unguided process P to generate a specified complex system S, but when talking about an unknown intelligent agent, we do not normally confine ourselves to saying that it is possible for the agent to produce system S. Instead, we say that the agent is capable of producing S.

What, you might ask, is the difference between possibility and capability? The former denotes a non-zero probability (e.g. of s specified complex system S arising via process P), whereas the latter refers to an active power or capacity residing in the agent, enabling him/her to produce the system in question. If the agent has this power, then nothing more is required from outside, in order for the agent to produce S. All that the agent needs to do is formulate the intention of doing so.

Formulating the right Intelligent Design hypothesis

Finally, Professor Moran fails to realize that the Intelligent Design hypothesis which needs to be evaluated against any naturalistic explanation of a specified complex system S is not:

(1) Some intelligent agent which is capable of producing S exists

but rather:

(2) Some intelligent agent which is capable of producing S, decided to do so.

The reason is that we already know that S exists. The only question is: what produced it? Was it an intelligent agent or some unguided process?

Given hypothesis (2), we no longer have to trouble ourselves over the fact that an intelligent agent may be capable of producing infinitely many designs, apart from S. Instead, we can straightforwardly argue that our observation of S is not at all surprising, since an intelligent agent will normally do what it has decided to do and is capable of doing. The agent’s decision is built into the design hypothesis.

The broad naturalistic hypothesis which is compared with our Intelligent Design hypothesis will be one of the form:

(3) Some natural process which has a non-zero probability of producing S, did so.

If we have good grounds for believing that a small finite set of natural processes {P1, P2, P3, … Pn} are overwhelmingly more likely to generate S than all other known natural processes put together, then we may resolve the question of whether S is the product of intelligent design by focusing on this restricted set of processes. And provided that we can find a natural process such that the probability of S arising via this process exceeds Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound (which we can conservatively define as 1 in 10^150), we are perfectly entitled to opt for a purely naturalistic explanation of system S. For that matter, if we find a disjunction of processes {P1 or P2 or P3 or … or Pn} such that the probability of S arising via one or more of these processes exceeds 1 in 10^150, we are entitled to infer that system S arose via one or more of these processes. But if we know of no process or set of processes whose likelihood or generating S exceeds Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound, then by default, we should opt for Intelligent Design as the most likely explanation. Even if we have absolutely no idea who the intelligent agent is or why the agent chose to generate S, there’s one thing we do know: intelligence is capable of generating specified complex systems. That fact alone makes the inference to Intelligent Design a rational one. Of course, such an inference is provisional, insofar as it is based on what we currently know, but all science is like that.

(UPDATE: The long odds mentioned above also serve to refute Professor Moran’s argument that the existence of God is very unlikely. (Intelligent Design proponents have insisted ad nauseam that the Designer need not be a Deity, but Professor Moran thinks that we’re all lying.) But even if that were the case, the inherent likelihood of God’s existence certainly cannot be lower than 1 in 10^150. For even if every event in the history of the cosmos counted as prima facie evidence against God’s existence, the total number of such events is still less than 10^150. Thus using Laplace’s “sunrise argument,” we can show that the inherent likelihood of God’s existence could not fall below 1 in 10^150. What this means is that if we can point to a system S exhibiting a high degree of specified complexity, such that the probability of such a pattern arising via unguided processes is far lower than 1 in 10^160, then it follows that Intelligent Design is much more than 10^150 times more successful than unguided natural processes, as an explanation of the pattern. In this way, the inherent improbability of God’s existence can be overcome by a sufficiently powerful piece of evidence pointing to intelligent design as an explanation. Thus even if the Designer could only be a Deity, it would still be rational to infer that He exists.)

Conclusion

In conclusion, I’d like to return to a remark made by Bilbo on Professor Moran’s thread. Bilbo correctly pointed out that Moran had misconstrued the argument for Intelligent Design:

…[T]he ID argument isn’t that God exists. It is that one or more designers does or did exist. And the argument is the same kind of argument that SETI uses: X looks designed. We don’t know a non-intelligent way to design X. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that X was intelligently designed.

In my opinion, it’s not an airtight, rigorous, scientific argument. But until one demonstrates that there is a plausible, probable way to evolve complex biological systems, it is at least a reasonable hypothesis.

For my part, I would modify Bilbo’s argument slightly. Instead of simply saying that “X looks designed,” I would prefer to say: “X possesses the hallmarks of a designed object.” I would also revise the middle premise to read: “Despite extensive searching, we have not found any non-intelligent process that would be likely to generate X even once in the history of the observable universe.” (In other words, all known natural processes fall below Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound.) However, Bilbo’s conclusion that “it is reasonable to believe that X was intelligently designed” seems to me a very good way of putting it. And I would certainly agree that it’s not an airtight argument, nor is it meant to be – although I would still call it a scientific inference. It’s an abductive inference to the best explanation of a phenomenon found in Nature.

But if Professor Moran honestly believes that a general Intelligent Design inference of the form, “This system was produced by an unknown intelligent agent” is never rationally warranted, and that we may never make an intelligent design inference without some specific knowledge of the agent and/or its motives, then I would suggest that what divides us is not science, but our philosophical premises. In that case, all I can suggest is that Professor Moran (and those who think like him) should continue doing science in their way, and Intelligent Design advocates will do it in a different way – and maybe, some decades hence, it will become apparent which approach is the more scientifically fruitful one.

What do readers think?

Comments
I tried to give this OP a fair reading, and I think I have. The problem I have is in the claim that
But if we know of no process or set of processes whose likelihood or generating S exceeds Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound, then by default, we should opt for Intelligent Design as the most likely explanation.
As you say,
Of course, such an inference is provisional, insofar as it is based on what we currently know, but all science is like that.
How do we get from such a “provisional” inference to greater certainty? In science, the method is called “empiricism”. No provisional inference is ever left standing, they are treated with great caution until they can be tested; and then they are tested until they break or prove themselves. How do we test the inference you say should be “default” in these situations? You wrote that this provisional inference is a “rational one”
Even if we have absolutely no idea who the intelligent agent is or why the agent chose to generate S,...
How do we test an inference to an unknown (perhaps unknowable) designer? There really is no way I can see. And there are too many ways to inaccurately guesstimate the probabilities you predicate your inference on. I think that there has to be a better way, and there is. Given some phenomena S (even some specified complex system S) the first (and most natural) question needs to be asked: Could humans have made S? If ‘yes’ then a provisional inference of being artificial makes sense even if S is a radio signal from the stars. If ‘no’ then the next question needs to be asked: Do we know of an Agent (intelligent or not) capable of making S? If ‘yes’ then a provisional inference of being artificial still makes sense. If ‘no’ then a provisional inference of being natural makes the most sense. A provisional inference of being artificial makes no sense unless that inference is testable. If it is not, then the provisional inference must be that S is natural NOT because it is or is not more probable but because that inference is the only one that is TESTABLE. In science, the probability of a particular inference must take a back-seat to its testability. If we mistakenly infer natural causes for something that was artificial, the worst is that we’ll learn some new things on the way to discovering that we can’t explain S, and the best is that we figure out how the designer did it. Win-win. sean s.sean samis
September 10, 2015
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kairosfocus: @37
PPS: Is your onion of...
It’s a metaphor. You shouldn’t get hung up on it. @40
I have given a strictly logical analysis of chains of warrant and cause.
Even the most rigorous logic in explanation of an irrelevance is irrelevant. Your chains of warrant don’t matter much to scientists because they are divorced from the reality of what scientists are supposed to be doing. Your chains of warrant might be important to philosophers, but most of us are not philosophers, and most philosophers are not working scientific investigators. @41
...indeed the [fractal] images are based on truncations etc.
True enough, and yet even if truncated, these sets are useful. As Aleta is saying (I think) in comment #44. That is what scientific activity is about: usefulness. You are on about philosophy which is not relevant to what most humans do on a day-to-day basis. @45:
...you are now agreeing with one of my core points on regress of warrant, that we are finite and must stop and yet try to cast it against a distinct point on causal chains.
And if that’s where you stopped (as you should have) then we’d be in agreement. But you didn’t, so we’re not.
Finitely remote causal root is what we face, and that is enormously challenging.
This all may be very challenging—to philosophers. The rest of humanity can pretty much ignore this in their daily work; which includes practicing scientists. @60:
The issue of infinity has to be faced first, crawl before run.
For philosophers, perhaps. For the rest of us, the issue of infinity is just an inconsequential bauble. sean s.sean samis
September 9, 2015
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Mahuna; that seems pretty obvious. Any intelligence should be able to send a coherent signal to others. The ID is posited to be the necessary creator of life, which raises the near-certainty of an infinite regress; something which generating a mere signal does not implicate. sean s.sean samis
September 9, 2015
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It occurred to me whilst puttering in the yard that the Sagan/Contact guys demand NOTHING about the nature of the intelligence sending the coherent signal. So why is there any demand that ID describe the Designer in order for theories about the biological data streams to be considered?mahuna
September 9, 2015
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kairosfocus @16:
Once, we have separately established that per observation (and associated analysis of claimed blind forces) the sign is empirically reliable.
This is quite interesting. Just today have objected to my assertion that “ If scientists investigating phenomena X theorize that an as-yet unverified cause Y explains X, then all scientists need to do is to verify (or falsify) Y. The question of Y’s cause or origin will eventually need to be investigated, but if Y can be empirically confirmed then that is enough. ” Now you agree with that. Now you say that if some creationist claims that X must have been designed by something Y which cannot terrestrial, that claim based on X is sufficient to establish the claim about Y. You are correct that IFF “we have established” that something X was designed by non-terrestrial thing Y, that claim is set. But that is a very big IFF. And that “IFF” is not misspelled, IFF means “if AND ONLY if”; a mathematical and logical connector indicating that either both statements are true or both are false. ONLY IF “we have established” that something X was designed by non-terrestrial thing Y, that claim is set. IF “we have NOT established” that something X was designed by non-terrestrial thing Y, that claim is FALSE. The problem is HOW DO YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT THE CLAIM ABOUT X HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED? Given object X, it was either created naturally or artificially. That’s actually quite hard to prove. Things like Stonehenge bear a resemblance to other things which we KNOW were made by humans, so the conclusion about Stonehenge is no great leap. Things (like living things) which do not resemble objects created by humans cannot leverage the same logic. A natural origin remains on the table. At the end of the day, the mere fact we don’t know how life might have arisen naturally is not any kind of evidence that life is designed. It gets worse for you: What kind of non-deity could have designed us? It must have been a living thing. Since it is a fundamental claim of yours that life cannot arise naturally, this non-deity living thing must also have been designed. And so the infinite regress begins. But your REAL PROBLEM is that you cannot “establish that terrestrial life is or must be designed.” so the rest of your analysis is left in abeyance until you can. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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SS: The design inference on a particular sign is specific to the process (inference to design as credible causal process not to identity or class of designer . . . ) and case involved; e.g. Stonehenge and the FSCO/I involved in the arrangement of stones; much like the diagnosis of a particular case of a disease after clinical observations. It in itself does not address nor depend on other cases for its particular validity. Once, we have separately established that per observation (and associated analysis of claimed blind forces) the sign is empirically reliable. Which does point to a chain of warrant -- that for inductive reasoning. Do you want to burn that house down in order to dismiss design thought or argument? Think about what else will go up in that fire. KFkairosfocus
September 8, 2015
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Replying to the OP:
Obviously, an intelligent designer need not always be a Deity.
If this ID is supposed to have created terrestrial life, then a non-theistic Designer falls to an Infinite Regression. sean s.sean samis
September 8, 2015
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Popperian, I'm not sure I understand your point. Designed objects tell us about their designers, including the knowledge that they had. The level of knowledge of the designer, or even our knowledge level about the designer, doesn't change the validity of design detection, or increase/decrease the probability of naturalistic processes being the "designer". For example, archaeology uncovers buildings and artifacts that they have no prior knowledge of. From the artifacts they derive knowledge of the designer - the fact that they had no previous knowledge of the tribe or civilization does not change their confidence level that the artifacts must have been designed. What do we know of the Egyptians? or the Hittites? or the Phoenicians? Aztecs? Incans? Neanderthals? etc.? Our knowledge of their knowledge is to a great deal retrieved from what they've designed - the question of intelligent design is not an issue. No one suggests that cave paintings must be the result of natural processes, just because we have no other knowledge of who created them. If we come across a beaver dam, having no previous knowledge of beavers, we can still be pretty sure the dam was designed, not an accident of nature. We could postulate a human source, a beaver source, or an unknown animal source - but we would not automatically preference a naturalistic one. Perhaps I misunderstood your point - but accusing ID proponents of grossly underestimating the role that knowledge plays seems irrelevant to the question of whether we can detect design/designer. Unless you're falling back on "the only known intelligent designer is humans/animals, so if you are talking about a non-human/animal designer you're automatically wrong".drc466
September 8, 2015
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Returning to the automotive industry, advances in AI, simulations and 3d printing techniques will allow us to eventually build cars on demand for customers in which no part need be shared. Customers will download the specifications to their home and it will be "printed" in their garage as a completely unique vehicle without the need for any shared parts. Did your car break down? The printer will be able to simply re-print it while recycling the same materials. Or print a completely new vehicle In other words, the appeal to human designers and designer of the biosphere made today, such as the reuse of parts, simply will not hold for human designers in the future. It is a concrete example of how ID proponents grossly underestimating the role that knowledge plays because it assumes we will not create new knowledge necessary to radically change the way we design and build things.Popperian
September 7, 2015
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What, you might ask, is the difference between possibility and capability? The former denotes a non-zero probability (e.g. of s specified complex system S arising via process P), whereas the latter refers to an active power or capacity residing in the agent, enabling him/her to produce the system in question. If the agent has this power, then nothing more is required from outside, in order for the agent to produce S. All that the agent needs to do is formulate the intention of doing so.
This ignores what we know about human designers. Specifically it grossly underestimates the role that knowledge plays in design. For example, we want to design safer cars. And as our knowledge grows, we become more capable of doing so. However, any particular concrete design we produce at any specific time t will be a trade off between a number of factors, including resources, time, cost, efficiency, etc. For example, we can currently make cars that could be much safer than what's currently on the road, but they would be significantly more expensive, perform significantly worse and consume significantly much more fuel. Most people could not afford them, use them to travel vast distances, etc. IOW human beings are good explanations for human designed things precisely because of our human limitations. So, It's not merely a question of formulating the intention of doing. Our knowledge of how to solve these problems cheaply and efficiently, or the lack there of, has an impact on the concrete things we design. For example, automotive manufactures cannot currently build an entirely new automobile from the ground up every year. It's just to expensive. So what we get in practice, are incremental updates while the next generation model is developed and tested over several years. That is, unless you have the resources to pay for it, which is rare. Again, there are trade offs.
Finally, Professor Moran fails to realize that the Intelligent Design hypothesis which needs to be evaluated against any naturalistic explanation of a specified complex system S is not: (1) Some intelligent agent which is capable of producing S exists but rather: (2) Some intelligent agent which is capable of producing S, decided to do so. Given hypothesis (2), we no longer have to trouble ourselves over the fact that an intelligent agent may be capable of producing infinitely many designs, apart from S. Instead, we can straightforwardly argue that our observation of S is not at all surprising, since an intelligent agent will normally do what it has decided to do and is capable of doing. The agent’s decision is built into the design hypothesis.
Except, ID's designer is abstract and has no defined limitations. As such, the probably shifts toward any such designer choosing one outcome over virtually an infinite number of alternatives for apparently no reason other than "that's just what the designer must have wanted", which doesn't actually explain anything. Anything is possible for ID's designer and there are no consequences for the current state of the system. Returning to the automotive field, ID's designer wouldn't have to manufacture anything in a way that makes it cost effective because it doesn't need profits to offset costs, or to attract customers. It doesn't have to reuse parts because it has no limitations on resources, manufacturing processes, etc. It doesn't have to employ engineers or safety personal to create and test designs because it has no limitations that would prevent it from knowing if any said design was safe or how it would react in any accident - even without the need for computer simulators, the power to run them, IT staff to maintain them, programmers to program them, etc. ID's designer could build an entirely new automobile from the ground up, every month, day, minute or second. But this ignores the greater question, why cars instead of something we haven't even conceived of yet, which we will eventually build that is vastly more safe, efficient and performant that we have now? Again, the response will be, "that's just what the designer must have wanted". But what is the probably that a designer with no defined limitations would intent to create that, as opposed to something else? Why would we expect to the designer to be like us? Switching to the biosphere, ID's designer has no limitations on what it knew and when it knew it. This includes knowing how to build any organism that has, does or could exist. As such, it could have chosen to create organisms in any order, including the order of most complex to least complex or even all at the same time. There are no consequences that we could observe today that would be necessary for ID's designer. This is, well, by design. On the other hand, Darwinism is the theory that the knowledge of what transformations of matter will result in the adaptations of biological organisms we observe was created via a process of variation and selection. It genuinely did not exist before. Nature cannot construct features for which the knowledge necessary to built it does not yet exist. This does have necessary consequences for the current state of the system. Namely that organisms must appear in the order of least to most complex. Darwinism is a long chain of hard to vary explanations that spans multiple fields of discipline, which are independently formed. ID is easily varied because the designer is only connected to the outcome by a principle that is so abstract that is reduced to essentially "deciding to do so". So, It's unclear how the distinction you're made actually improves the problem.
For my part, I would modify Bilbo’s argument slightly. Instead of simply saying that “X looks designed,” I would prefer to say: “X possesses the hallmarks of a designed object.” I would also revise the middle premise to read: “Despite extensive searching, we have not found any non-intelligent process that would be likely to generate X even once in the history of the observable universe.” (In other words, all known natural processes fall below Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound.)
See above. Human beings are good explanations for human designed things because of our limitations. Furthermore, the appearance of design in organisms is a refection of the fact that they are well adapted to serve a purpose. If they were slightly modified, the would not be able to serve that purpose as well. The origin of those features is the origin of the knowledge of what transformations of raw materials would result in those concrete features. As such, our current, best explanation for the universal growth of knowledge would be relevant to the subject, would it not? To quote Popper...
I blush when I have to make this confession; for when I was younger, I used to say very contemptuous things about evolutionary philosophies. When twenty-two years ago Canon Charles E. Raven, in his Science, Religion, and the Future, described the Darwinian controversy as "a storm in a Victorian teacup," I agreed, but criticized him for paying too much attention "to the vapors still emerging from the cup," by which I meant the hot air of the evolutionary philosophies (especially those which told us that there were inexorable laws of evolution). But now I have to confess that this cup of tea has become, after all, my cup of tea; and with it I have to eat humble pie. [Popper, 1972, p. 241]
Evolutionary theory has become Popper's cup of tea because his theory of knowledge, whether found in books, brains or even the genomes of organism is based on some form of conjecture and criticism. IOW, the question of how does knowledge grow, or does it even actually grow at all, seems to be a question that is very relevant in respect to whether there are natural process that that can explain the appearance of design. Yet, this is completely absent in the case of ID. A designer that "just was", complete with the knowledge of just the right genes that result in just the right proteins that result in just the right biological features, already present, serves no explanatory purpose. This is because one could more efficiently state that organisms "just appeared" complete with the knowledge of just the right genes that result in just the right proteins that result in just the right biological features, already present.
But if Professor Moran honestly believes that a general Intelligent Design inference of the form, “This system was produced by an unknown intelligent agent” is never rationally warranted, and that we may never make an intelligent design inference without some specific knowledge of the agent and/or its motives, then I would suggest that what divides us is not science, but our philosophical premises. In that case, all I can suggest is that Professor Moran (and those who think like him) should continue doing science in their way, and Intelligent Design advocates will do it in a different way – and maybe, some decades hence, it will become apparent which approach is the more scientifically fruitful one.
Is it possible that organism have the specific concrete features they do because "That's just what a designer must have wanted" ? Yes, it is. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a bad explanation because it's easily varied. Take human designers, for example. They are well adapted for the purpose of designing organisms, right? In fact, that's one of the very properties of something that exhibits the appearance of design. Could ID's designer be varied significantly, yet still perform the purpose of designing human beings just as well? If not, it seems you haven't solved the problem, as your designer would exhibit the same appearance of design, which in turn would need a designer, etc.That just pushes the problem up a level without improving it. And, if it can be varied significantly, without impacting it's ability to explain the appearance of design, then in what sense is it a good explanation of anything?Popperian
September 7, 2015
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If you think about what would happen if the Mars-Rover would discover a building on Mars, it becomes clear how ridiculous Moran's argument is. Some would see this as proof that aliens once have been there, others would suggest that some nation from earth did secretly visit the planet but I'm 100% sure nobody would even waste a second thought on the possibility that it wasn't built by some intelligent being. Even if nobody would ever discover who the designer is and/or what purpose the building has. SebestyenSebestyen
September 7, 2015
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Oh, and if we're going to talk about calculations, then there's this from Behe's rebuttal of CNE (linked to above):
Is this a reasonable hypothesis? I don’t mean to be unkind, but I think that the idea seems reasonable only to the extent that it is vague and undeveloped; when examined critically it quickly loses plausibility. The first thing to note about the paper is that it contains absolutely no calculations to support the feasibility of the model. This is inexcusable. The mutation rates of various organisms — viral, prokaryotic, eukaryotic — are known to sufficient accuracy (5) that estimates of how frequently the envisioned mutations arrive could have been provided. The neutral theory of evolution is also well-developed (6), which would allow the authors to calculate how long it would take for the postulated neutral mutations to spread in a population. Yet no numbers — not even back-of-the-envelope calculations — are provided. Previous results by other workers (7-9) have shown that the development of serendipitous specific binding sites between proteins would be expected to be quite rare, and to involve multiple mutations. Kimura (6) showed that fixation of a mutation by neutral drift would be expected to take a looong time. Neither of these previous results bodes well for the authors’ hypothesis.
Here's an analogy to CNE (as proposed, i.e., "vague and undeveloped," and without "calculations"): Take a whole bunch of golf balls, cover them with "super-glue," and then drop them all at once and have them bounce them off the floor with enough energy (from a sufficient height) to free them from sticking to the floor. As they bounce together, they will begin to 'stick' to one another. Given enough time, and bounces, they will form very large complexes. Our imagination has no problem imagining this. It seems like a likely outcome. However, ask this specific question, and then what does your imagination tell you? Let all of the balls be numbered from 1 to 10,000 (a rough, conservative number for how many proteins we find in the average eukaryotic cell). What are the odds of one of the balls having a complex object formed out of exactly these balls: 1,2,3,4,....100,.....200,......300? One can see that the odds of 1 and 2 "gluing themselves" together is roughly 10^4. And for 1 and 2 to hook up with 3 is roughly 10^4, and so forth. Since we don't care how they 'stick together,' the odds of this happening is (3/100)^300. That is, incredibly unlikely, bordering on the impossible. What an irony that Larry Moran insists that we provide numbers, while he chafes at the demand for "calculations." And now you can see why he "chafes."PaV
September 7, 2015
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This is the abstract of a paper Behe cites contra the CNE. Note the effects the author is concerned about:
Recently, constructive neutral evolution has been touted as an important concept for the understanding of the emergence of cellular complexity. It has been invoked to help explain the development and retention of, amongst others, RNA splicing, RNA editing and ribosomal and mitochondrial respiratory chain complexity. The theory originated as a welcome explanation of isolated small scale cellular idiosyncrasies and as a reaction to 'overselectionism'. Here I contend, that in its extended form, it has major conceptual problems, can not explain observed patterns of complex processes, is too easily dismissive of alternative selectionist models, underestimates the creative force of complexity as such, and--if seen as a major evolutionary mechanism for all organisms--could stifle further thought regarding the evolution of highly complex biological processes.
It could "stifle further thought." You know, like "God did it. End of story." IOW, it's a trivial solution, just as VJT points out.PaV
September 7, 2015
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I wonder what the derivation of Moran's surname might be?Axel
September 7, 2015
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Very, very funny post, #3, BA !!! With Denyse providing rather a nice coda in the form of the title beneath the Post Comment button : 'Darwinian evolution is not a valid research program.'!!! It seems though that they are utterly, utterly beyond shame, even embarrassment. I think that, with the uncomprehending eyes of Giraud-like porcelain cats, they must be A-moral, kind of (ever-so- slightly-(ig)Noble Savages'.Axel
September 7, 2015
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So vjt, what about the difference between what we can conceive and what is possible? I think we could have some fun coming up with "naturalistic" ways a flagellum might have conceivably come about. They might be indistinguishable from fairy tales, but I'm not sure that matters to Dr. Moran.Mung
September 7, 2015
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Good for you VJT (and Bilbo). I honestly get tired of dealing with the constant misrepresentation and even outright lies.Mung
September 7, 2015
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Excellent analysis of Moran's obtuseness & debating tricks. BTW I agree with Moran that natural selection is useless — I would like to go even further by saying that NS is a hindrance for evolution. The next logical step for Moran is to understand that his position is left with nothing but a pitiful appeal to chance. Neutral theory is a joke.Box
September 7, 2015
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semi-related:
Plantinga - Darwinism not proved absolutely impossible therefore it must be true - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716 The Universal Plausibility Metric (UPM) & Principle (UPP) - Abel - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: Mere possibility is not an adequate basis for asserting scientific plausibility. A precisely defined universal bound is needed beyond which the assertion of plausibility, particularly in life-origin models, can be considered operationally falsified. But can something so seemingly relative and subjective as plausibility ever be quantified? Amazingly, the answer is, "Yes.",,, c?u = Universe = 10^13 reactions/sec X 10^17 secs X 10^78 atoms = 10^108 c?g = Galaxy = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^66 atoms = 10^96 c?s = Solar System = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^55 atoms = 10^85 c?e = Earth = 10^13 X 10^17 X 10^40 atoms = 10^70 http://www.tbiomed.com/content/6/1/27
bornagain77
September 7, 2015
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And there you have it. Prof Moran exposed again. We need not bother to find the truth, after all evolution does not select for truth only for fitness. Prof Moran and his band of merry men can whale all they like, Behe is right, not that it matters to them of course.Andre
September 7, 2015
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Interestingly, the strongest argument against naturalistic evolution that I have come across lately is Larry Moran's baby -- neutral theory. Neutral theory (and near neutral theory) all but castrates natural selection. However, all "if this, then this advantage, if then that, then that advantage" "just so" scenarios count on an efficiently functioning natural selection. Near neutral theory states that fractional advantages are ignored by biology, yet "just so" stories count on these fractional advantages to make a claim of the development of irreducible complexity. Hmmm.bFast
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