Tozer Got It

_{Barry Arrington
May 6, 2011

Intelligent Design

2}_{Categories
Intelligent Design}

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What do I mean by reality? I mean that which has existence apart from any idea any mind may have of it, and which would exist if there were no mind anywhere to entertain a thought of it. That which is real has being in itself. It does not depend upon the observer for its validity.
I am aware that there are those who love to poke fun at the plain man’s idea of reality. They are the idealists who spin endless proofs that nothing is real outside of the mind. They are the relativists who like to show that there are no fixed points in the universe from which we can measure anything. They smile down upon us from their lofty intellectual peaks and settle us to their own satisfaction by fastening upon us the reproachful term “absolutist.” The Christian is not put out of countenance by this show of contempt. He can smile right back at them, for he knows that there is only One who is Absolute, that is God. But he knows also that the Absolute One has made this world for man’s use, and while there is nothing fixed or real in the last meaning of the words (the meaning as applied to God), for every purpose of human life we are permitted to act as if there were. And every man does act thus except the mentally sick. These unfortunates also have trouble with reality, but they are consistent; they insist upon living in accordance with their ideas of things. They are honest, and it is their very honesty which constitutes them a social problem.
The idealists and relativists are not mentally sick. They prove their soundness by living their lives according to the very notions of reality which they in theory repudiate and by counting upon the very fixed points which they prove are not there. They could earn a lot more respect for their notions if they were willing to live by them; but this they are careful not to do. Their ideas are brain-deep, not life-deep. Wherever life touches them they repudiate their theories and live like other men.
A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God

Comments

Bornagain: "Thus how do you explain the stark contrast between cultures?" I gave you my explanation in #59. It also covers the few examples (1 - 2%, according to Pim van Lommel) of Hellish NDEs from our own culture. Some (but not all) of the Thai NDEs that you referenced earlier contain visions of Hell, but they all also contain experiences that reflect specifically Thai Buddhist beliefs (e.g., you are taken to judgment by Yamatoots, you are judged by Yama, Hell is not permanent, souls will be reincarnated (some as animals), eating meat or killing animals (including turtles and chickens) will send you to Hell, not giving the Buddhist monks food or drink will send you to Hell, and not performing Buddhist meditations will prevent you from getting into Heaven). You accept the Hellish visions as indicating true reality, but reject all of the Buddhist (ie. non-Christian) elements. How do you justify this? How can you cherry pick just the Hell part and completely ignore all of the Buddhist elements of these NDEs?Bruce David_{May 12, 2011
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of note; to be sure, western NDE's are not devoid of negative NDEs Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types: * The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening. * The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study, a similar type of this NDE may be very common among the Buddhist culture of China) * The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented. Former Atheist Howard Storm's Hellish NDE - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_GmifF8Fkc Near Death Experience Testimony - To Outer Darkness (Hell) and Back - Matthew Botsford - video http://vimeo.com/19297257 further notes; The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007bornagain77_{May 12, 2011
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Bruce David you state; 'I have already given you an explanation for the existence of Hellish NDEs that is consistent with my own worldview.' If you could rehash your worldview I would appreciate it, for if I recall correctly you deny the reality of hell, and in fact in your pantheism I think you hold that we all go back to same place when we die?!? Thus how do you explain the stark contrast between cultures??? i.e. since ALL non-Judeo-Christian cultures have very different, and unpleasant, NDEs from the typical 'heavenly' Judeo-Christian ones, how can this be in your metaphysics??? This would seem to present a insurmountable difficulty to your pantheism to someone who was a unbiased observer! Whereas the obvious answer, at least to me, is that the common thread of the western cultures of Judeo-Christianity is what is making the stark difference seen in heavenly western NDEs and unpleasant eastern NDEs. Do you see my problem? If we all truly did go to the same place when we die, as you hold in your pantheism, then should not all NDE's at least have the basic elements in common, as most heavenly Judeo-Christian NDE's all share the basic elements of the tunnel, the Light, and the panoramic life review.,,, Your pantheism simply cannot account for the fact that foreign culture NDEs are notorious for their extreme rarity of these 'heavenly' elements seen in Judeo-Christian cultures!. Near Death Experience - The Tunnel - The Light - The Life Review - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200 Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. (of note; the last part of this paper contains the full paper) http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html Hindu Woman asks Jesus to Make Himself Real – HE DID!!! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKp8w1qR5XM Monk and Jesus Miracle Story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOLEW3heQwA here is the transcript: The Buddhist Monk and Jesus Excerpt: Monk “And then the man turned and he walked away, going toward the door. And when he got to the door, he turned back around, and he said, Jesus: ‘My name is Jesus. Monk: “Now, I had never heard that name before, so I didn’t know who Jesus was. He didn’t tell me anything else about himself, only his name. And then I think I must have fallen asleep again. But later on in the night, I felt warmth in my leg. By morning, I had feeling. And when the doctors came to prep me for surgery, my leg was healed.” http://www.asiastories.com/?p=7bornagain77_{May 12, 2011
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I suppose I could argue this a couple of different ways, but I'll try to keep with the necessity of believing that what we perceive as the reality of the physical world, is, in fact, real. I don't think you've appreciated my last point in the previous post enough. Let me say, first, that your Avatar illustration is a good point for my argument. Unobtainium does derive its meaning from the physical! Yes, we have to bridge the gap with our imagination, and we do it without even realizing it. When you say "piece", and "from the planet Pandora", immediately we fill in the gaps with size, shape, color, etc., etc. If further hints arise to its nature, we revise the gaps to match. Now, what did your mind come up with when I mentioned "bungabulyer(sp?)"? Can you describe that for me? I doubt you can because I didn't give any hint (other than "a" which was a mistake, I think). And if you cannot imagine what that is like, it is really a meaningless word. Anyway, I say that unobtainium, as unintuitive as it may seem, even derives meaning from the physical world. And I'd also argue that all thoughts and concepts, ultimately, are grounded in physical reality. Now, I understand your point that in your view everything can be understood in the same way, but that everything "physical" isn't actually real, and nothing else changes; everything is viewed and perceived in the same way. And that gets me back to my last point in my last post. If what we are trying to understand must be grounded in something physical, but the physical is not actually real, then what we are trying to understand by the physical cannot be real either. Actually, I think you've really indicated that this is true yourself. Didn't you say pretty plainly (to someone else here) that you didn't think that we could understand anything, reality, from the physical world? It sounded like that is what you were saying. So, if you do agree with that, then you'll have to reject my premise that we cannot understand anything without attaching something physical to it. If what seems like physical reality isn't really real, and we can only derive meaning from even abstract ideas from the physical, then nothing is real. As I've said, you've explained away everything.Brent_{May 12, 2011
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Brent, re #85, You've written a lot of words. I think it boils down to what I said earlier: we live in the same universe. The difference is how we view the nature of its reality--virtual for me, existential for you. I have a coffee mug sitting on my desk as I type these words. That mug has continuity--it will be there in the morning unless I move it. I can say there is one mug on my one desk, along with two bottles of ink. Those statements remain true even though I am certain that the objects to which they refer have no reality independent of my or another being's perception of them. The continuity of "physical" objects in my worldview is maintained by God in order that the illusion be convincing so that the purpose of physical existence can be realized. I guess my point is that it makes just as much sense to talk about one virtual object as one "real" object. You can also talk about one idea or one thought (which have no physical reality at all), or one piece of unobtainium from the planet Pandora, which exists only in the imagined reality of the movie Avatar. Let me repeat: we live in the same universe, a universe that contains solids, liquids, and gases, a universe in which solid objects maintain their form for relatively long periods of time, a universe in which when you put two objects together with two other objects, you have four abjects. Our experience of the universe is comparable. The difference is what we believe about its reality. I do not believe that it has any existence independent of our perceptions. You do. I believe that the fact that these perceptions obey patterns that conform to the laws of physics and mathematics is due to the way God manages the virtual reality. You believe it is because the matter that has independent existence obeys those laws. I believe that your view carries with it insuperable philosophic difficulties, as I mentioned in #57. You seem to believe that no concept or abstraction has meaning unless physical reality has independent existence. I have tried to show you why I don't agree with that assertion.Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce @77, I think you surely understand my definition of "1" from my earlier post. Sure, numbers are abstract and themselves not physical, but you seem to believe in them. But, as with anything else abstract, if it isn't attachable to the physical, it is meaningless, like a bungabulyer(sp?). We don't have meaningless abstract concepts; they always are grounded in the physical. And here is what I see as your problem. You do not believe in the physical, and therefore have no grounding for anything. One has to refer to one something for one to have any meaning. Zero has meaning only in the context that there is such a thing as non-zero, or one. Two, likewise, gets its meaning and coherence from one, and so on. But you do not believe in the reality of anything physical to attach one to. The meaning of one, then, has no meaning, and becomes arbitrary. And if this is the case, then 2+2=4, though you seem to believe it, can only really be an illusion. But if it is an illusion, how do you ground the concept of contradiction, which is what I really want to get at. You cannot rationally---get that part . . . rationally---object to someone asserting that 2+2=5. If there is no physical ground to attach words, thoughts, and meanings to, then everything is completely arbitrary. If the things that words and thoughts and meanings are attached to are not real, then the words, thoughts, and meanings are not real either. Your words are meaningless when you insist that everything is really an illusion. Illusion is like zero. It only derives its meaning from the real. But, according to you, there is no real; that which is physical and seemingly real, isn't in fact real, according to you. If I ask you, then, what IS real, you'll presumably say that God is real, or the non-physical mind, or some such thing. If I then ask you to explain that to me, you'll have to tell me what it is like, just like abstract concepts, by appealing to the physical world. But the physical isn't real. And if what IS supposedly real is like that which isn't really real, then it also isn't real. You've explained away everything. Nothing is real if the physical isn't real.Brent_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain: "So does this not mean that you have to completely ignore any accounts of Near Death Experiences which speak of hell???,,, If so, this should create quite the problem for you does it not??? Or does your ‘inner knowing’ allow you to cherry pick with immunity???" I have already given you an explanation for the existence of Hellish NDEs that is consistent with my own worldview. How do you justify your own cherry picking of the data in which you accept visions of Hell, but completely ignore all the distinctly Buddhist (and distinctly non-Christian) elements of the Thai NDEs?Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce David, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you deny the reality of hell in the first place??? (I believe you also deny the reality of sin and evil too don't you???) So does this not mean that you have to completely ignore any accounts of Near Death Experiences which speak of hell???,,, If so, this should create quite the problem for you does it not??? Or does your 'inner knowing' allow you to cherry pick with immunity???bornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain: "Now Bruce these people in a non-Christian, pantheistic, country are having decidedly ‘un-heavenly’ experiences while they are dead,,, and you don’t see the connection to their pantheism how???" The only connection I see is that the 11 NDEs from your link very strongly reflect Thai Buddhist religious dogma regarding what happens to a someone after he or she dies. They certainly DO NOT accurately reflect Christian ideas of what will be our fate after death. They are clearly evidence that Thai Buddhism is true. Why aren't you a Buddhist?Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce David I'm puzzled by this comment of yours: 'I am amazed that you actually refer to them as evidence for Christianity.' Now Bruce these people in a non-Christian, pantheistic, country are having decidedly 'un-heavenly' experiences while they are dead,,, and you don't see the connection to their pantheism how???bornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce David you state: 'These NDEs are so obviously a result of the beliefs instilled into them by their religion' This is correct!!! Furthermore,,, Religion in Thailand Excerpt: According to the last census (2000) 94.6% of Thais are Buddhists of the Theravada tradition. Muslims are the second largest religious group in Thailand at 4.6%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Thailand and,,, excerpt: 'Buddhists are pantheistic in their view of God' http://wri.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/buddhism.html --------------bornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain: re #78: Well, I looked at your link. This is your evidence? You're kidding, right? In the first place, they are NOT all Hellish. In the second place, they obviously reflect Thai religion, not Christian dogma. Yamatoots? Really! And they go to Hell for killing chickens, not giving water or food to the monks, or not performing Buddhist meditations. In the third place, there is no mention of pantheism in any of the stories, so we don't know what they believed on that score. In the fourth place, their Hell is not eternal, like Christian Hell. Fifth, many of those in Hell will be reborn as animals (a decidedly un-Christian teaching). These NDEs are so obviously a result of the beliefs instilled into them by their religion that I am amazed that you actually refer to them as evidence for Christianity. Do you actually expect me to take this seriously?Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce David, you state; 'On the contrary, for your assertion to have merit, you MUST provide a comprehensive study of NDEs that shows that EVERY NDE experienced by a person who is a pantheist is a Hellish one,' Bruce, here are the individual case studies of pantheist's NDEs: http://www.shaktitechnology.com/bkknde.htm Please show me just one out of that collection that compares to a typical 'heavenly' Judeo-Christian NDE: Near Death Experience - The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ Seems Bruce that you want to believe your gut feeling (excuse me, Inner Knowing) so much that you are willing to severely distort the evidence just so to get your desired conclusion. But the truth is that in pantheistic NDE's in 'purely' pantheistic cultures, the NDE's are a far cry from the pleasant 'heavenly' western NDE's, and very many of the purely pantheistic NDE's are downright horrifying. That some people who may claim to be pantheists in western countries have heavenly NDEs does not negate the strong impact a culture has on ones personal beliefs. i.e. The 'bleed over' effect is a very real as for establishing personal beliefs!!! That you would be forced to use western Judeo-Christian NDE case studies so as to claim any legitimacy for pantheism in the first place is simply devoid of sound reason and reflects either desperation or 'lack of logic', my hunch is for lack of logic on your part.,,, You state that you want to post your beliefs so as to give people a 'option'. Well I'm glad you have posted your deeply held pantheistic beliefs, for I think you have probably turned quite a few people away from pantheism! :) further notes:bornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Brent: re #74: And I would like to see you define 1 in your worldview without the Peano postulates or something equivalent. Here's the point: the world I experience and the world you experience are the same world. The difference is that I hold it to be virtual reality and you hold it to have an existential reality. But if you can define 1 in your world, I can define it the same way in mine.Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce David, if you want your ‘many paths’ pantheistic view to have any validity whatsoever you MUST provide a comprehensive study of Near Death Experiences from pantheistic countries to counter the Hellish studies I have listed." On the contrary, for your assertion to have merit, you MUST provide a comprehensive study of NDEs that shows that EVERY NDE experienced by a person who is a pantheist is a Hellish one, regardless of what culture they come from. There are many possible explanations for the NDE data you adduce besides yours. I have already given you mine.Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Hmmm... Perhaps the Peano postulates did include zero originally. I say that is a mistake. The coherence of zero must come from one.Brent_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce,
"In the Peano postulates, 1 is the successor of 0."
Well that isn't exactly agreed upon, is it? I, and many others, do not consider zero a natural number. As far as I can tell, originally, the postulates start with 1 as a given, more or less, and from there you can have your successors. Either way, and this is what this is all about, you cannot even explain and define "1" coherently without attaching it to something material (and zero only has its meaning in relation to one). If there were literally nothing, how could "1" have any meaning whatsoever? It flatly couldn't, and that is why I suggest that you cannot even believe and coherently argue, in your worldview, that 2+2=4. I would like to see you try it, however.Brent_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce David, you state in regards to Jesus' claim of being the way, the truth, and the life,,, 'You accept the Bible as unassailable truth. I do not.' And yet I have consistent Near Death Experience studies from pantheistic cultures, that tell me that your pantheistic 'many paths' to the truth is completely misguided; Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant “phenomena”) http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindestxt.htm Bruce David, if you want your 'many paths' pantheistic view to have any validity whatsoever you MUST provide a comprehensive study of Near Death Experiences from pantheistic countries to counter the Hellish studies I have listed. You cannot use NDE studies conducted in Judeo-Christian cultures to counter what the pantheistic culture studies are telling us. Your 'inner knowing' is of no comfort whatsoever to me in the face of what clearly appear to be such perilous consequences for the results we see for holding purely pantheistic beliefs!. Sonicflood - Cry Holy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW1GbdjAmPUbornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Brent: "Could you define “1?, please?" In the Peano postulates, 1 is the successor of 0. How do you define 1?Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce, that surely don’t sound like ‘many ways up the mountain’ to me!!!" You accept the Bible as unassailable truth. I do not. Furthermore, what it actually means is open to interpretation. Another person might interpret the exact same passages you quote differently than you do. Even further, the words in English carry meanings that might be significantly different in the language in which Jesus originally spoke them. And, we don't really know if they were reported accurately by the time the authors of Matthew and John wrote them down, which scholars estimate was decades after the fact.Bruce David_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce you state; 'And since there are many “ways up the mountain”, (to the 'truth') our paths may be different.' Yet the 'truth' is; Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Bruce, that surely don't sound like 'many ways up the mountain' to me!!!bornagain77_{May 11, 2011
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Bruce, Could you define "1", please?Brent_{May 11, 2011
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Bornagain re. #67: Oh, I see. My statement can definitely be interpreted to mean that my inner knowing guides me to the truth and yours does not. I retract the statement; that is not what I had in mind when I wrote it. A more expanded version would be that each of our inner knowing guides us toward the truth, but because of the veils I mentioned in #65, neither of us will be able to see the truth in its fullness while we are in the physical. So each of our understandings will be an approach to the truth, but not an arrival, so to speak. And since there are many "ways up the mountain", our paths may be different. What I was trying to say was that if your inner knowing looks different from mine, it will nonetheless be as valid for you as mine is for me, hence my statement, "If your inner knowing leads you somewhere else, then go there." I hope that clears it up.Bruce David_{May 10, 2011
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Bruce David you state in 65; 'Your accusation is quite unfair, actually. I have never said that my inner knowing is better than yours or anyone else’s.' yet you state in 59,,, 'You have it exactly right. My inner knowing guides me to the truth. If your inner knowing leads you somewhere else, then go there.' ,,,Now you either think that your 'inner knowing' is better than my 'inner knowing' so as to lead you to the truth and me somewhere else, or else you think there is more than one ultimate metaphysical truth. Either way it is sheer nonsense in my book, and if you are offended that I call a spade a spade so be it, but I calls em like my 'inner knowing' sees em! :) ---- Brooke Fraser - Lord of Lords(Legendado Português) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkF3iVjOZ1Ibornagain77_{May 10, 2011
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Kairosfocus: "And, how can you talk about it — with whom — and form the concepts [as opposed to the definitions] behind 2, and, equals and four?" I can talk about it because I presently inhabit a virtual reality that includes the ability for oral and written communication with other souls who also currently inhabit that virtual reality. I can form the concepts because creative intelligence is an aspect of my essential nature. What's your point?Bruce David_{May 10, 2011
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Bornagain: "But of course Bruce David,you believe your inner knowing is far more refined than mine, or anyone else’s ‘inner knowing’ who dares disagree with you, which is exactly why you believe whatever you want. Thus not only are you egregiously wrong in logic your ‘wrongness’ stems from the fact that you arrogantly think you can’t possibly be wrong because your ‘inner knowing’ tells you so. An inner knowing which you hold is better than anyone who disagrees with you!" Here's what I ACTUALLY believe about inner knowing: As souls, we each have perfect knowledge. This is a consequence of being created in His image and likeness. When we choose to inhabit a physical body, however, forgetting Who We Really Are is part of it, as I have said. Thus, our perfect knowingness (aka our inner knowing) gets veiled. The veils can be effectively opaque or nearly transparent, or anything in between, and they can become more transparent over the course of a lifetime (as a result of spiritual work, an NDE, etc.). However, they are never completely clear as long as one occupies a body, due to the filters that "come with the territory" of physical existence. So my actual position vis a vis inner knowing is that everyone's is perfect, yet veiled to a greater or lesser extent. I fully recognize that this also applies to me. However, my inner knowing is nonetheless my own best avenue to truth. I have nothing better. But yours is your own best avenue also. And if we disagree, well, we disagree. Your accusation is quite unfair, actually. I have never said that my inner knowing is better than yours or anyone else's. And you have never invoked your own inner knowing as a warrant for anything you believe is true. You have invoked reason, scripture, fulfilled prophesy, the shroud of Turin, and NDEs, but never your own inner knowing. I acknowledge that I hold inner knowing to be a superior source of truth than any or all of these, but not just my inner knowing, anyone's. The relevant question is to what extent does one have access to it.Bruce David_{May 10, 2011
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And, how can you talk about it -- with whom -- and form the concepts [as opposed to the definitions] behind 2, and, equals and four?kairosfocus_{May 10, 2011
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Brent, regarding #62: I can prove that 2+2=4 from the Peano postulates. It's a relatively trivial mathematical exercise. Since the Peano postulates contain no axiom that depends on the existence of a physical universe, their truth is independent of whether I believe matter exists or not.Bruce David_{May 10, 2011
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Bruce @57, Does it matter whether 2+2=4 is a function of the physical world or not? Do you claim to believe it is true simply because you think it isn't a function of the physical world? Why? You still have to give me a reason why you believe it is true, and how you can show it to be true from your worldview, which I don't think you can.Brent_{May 10, 2011
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You forget one thing in your cherry of picking of Lommel, Bruce. His studies were ALL done in a Judeo-Christian culture. Yet,,, Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant “phenomena”) http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindestxt.htm and when we look at purely pantheistic cultures we find,,, Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Bruce if you want to prove that your pantheistic beliefs are better than Judeo-Christian beliefs, then go find, or conduct, a study in a pantheistic culture which contradicts the consistent finding of hellish experiences I have found for pantheistic cultures!!! But do not cherry pick data from Near Death Experiences studies done in a Judeo-Christian culture. My 'inner knowing' finds this 'cherry picking' practice of yours repugnant!!!bornagain77_{May 10, 2011
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