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Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix)

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Move over, Professor Richard Dawkins. Atheism has a new champion.

Dave Mullenix has recently come up with not one but two philosophical arguments for atheism. Mullenix’s arguments, unlike Dawkins’, aren’t based on inductive inference, but on the unassailable facts that (i) a certain minimal amount of information (usually several bits) is required to represent a proper name; and (ii) a very large amount of information is required to represent all of the rules we follow, when speaking a language. Any Being that knows your name must be able to keep your name in its mind. That means its mind must be able to store more than one bit, so it can’t be the simple God of classical theism. Moreover, any Being that knows all the rules of a language (as God does, being omniscient) must be extremely complex – much more so than the first cell, say. And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.

I believe in addressing arguments for atheism head-on, especially good ones, so here goes.

Commenting in response to a question which I had previously posed to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, “Why does a mind require something brain-like?”, Dave Mullenix argued as follows:

I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.

Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just “vjtorley” is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total.

Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that’s associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be “on line”.

This is the single biggest weakness in ID – ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.

I’ve taken the liberty of trying to make Dave Mullenix’s arguments against theism as philosophically rigorous as possible, and this is what I’ve come up with.

Argument A. An argument against the existence of the God of Classical Theism (an absolutely simple and omniscient Being)

1. Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.
2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit.
3. If God exists, God knows everyone’s name. (By definition, God is omniscient, according to classical theism.)
4. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit.
5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind has multiple parts.
7. But if God exists, God’s mind does not have multiple parts. (By definition, God is simple, according to classical theism.)
8. Therefore God does not exist. (If P->Q and P->not Q, then it follows that not P.)

This argument will not trouble all religious believers. Some of them might be tempted to say: “We can jettison classical theism but still retain our belief in God. Maybe God is omniscient, but complex.” But Dave Mullenix’s second argument discredits even this fallback position.

Argument B. An argument against the existence of an omniscient God who created life

1. If God exists, God knows each and every human language. (True by definition of omniscience.)
2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
3. Rules have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. (A rule contains several words; hence you can’t represent a rule using only a single bit.)
4. Since the rules of a human language include not only phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules, but also semantic rules and pragmatic rules, the total number of rules in any given language is vast.
5. Therefore any entity that knows a language is capable of holding a vast number of bits of information (let’s call it N) in his/her mind.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains an extremely large number of bits of information. In fact, this number is much larger than N, as N is the number of bits required to specify the rules of just one language, and there are roughly 10,000 languages in existence, to the nearest order of magnitude.
7. However, the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is smaller than N. (A living cell is complex, but it cannot be as complex as the total set of rules in a human language – otherwise we would be unable to describe the workings of the cell in human language.)
8. Indeed, it is probably the case that the total number of bits required to explain the existence of all life-forms found on Earth today is smaller than N. (Many ID advocates, including Professor Behe, are prepared to assume that front-loading is true. If it is, then the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is sufficient to explain the diversity of all life-forms found on Earth today.)
9. The more bits an entity requires to specify it, the more complex it is, and hence the more antecedently unlikely its existence is.
10. Therefore God’s existence is antecedently even more unlikely than the existence of life on Earth – the difficulties of abiogenesis notwithstanding.
11. An explanation which is antecedently even more unliklely than what it tries to explain is a bad explanation.
12. Hence invoking God (an omniscient Being) to explain life is a bad explanation.

A brief comment about the wisdom of choosing names

Before I go on, let me just say that the choice of names was a very clever one on Dave Mullenix’s part. Traditionally, Scholastic philosophers have maintained that God’s mind can store a vast number of concepts, in virtual form. How does God know what a dog is, what an E. coli bacterium is, and what an atom of gold is? The Scholastic reply has been that each of these entities must possess a kind of unity, or it wouldn’t be an individual. Therefore God, who knows all things in the most perfect manner possible, must have a unified concept of each of these kinds of entities. What’s more, God doesn’t even need to have separate and distinct concepts of each of these creatures. He only needs to have a concept of Himself as the possible cause of all these creatures, since He is able to create them all. Hence, simply by knowing Himself as a perfectly simple Being, God’s mind implicitly or virtually contains the concepts of all the various kinds of creatures which He is able to create.

Now, even if you buy that solution to the question of how God can have concepts of natural kinds, it certainly won’t work for names. Names don’t belong to any natural kind; they’re a human convention. And even if you were to maintain that God implicitly knows all names by knowing all possible combinations of letters or sounds, that wouldn’t explain how God knows your name – or how God knew Samuel’s name when He called him three times: “Samuel, Samuel.”

Argument A

OK. Let’s go back to argument A. What’s wrong with it? The problem, I believe, lies in premise 1: “Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.”

At first blush premise 1 seems obvious: surely all knowledge has to be in the mind of the knower. However, I’d like to challenge this assumption. Why should this be so? A clue to why this seems so obvious is contained in Dave Mullenix’s words, “that information needs to be ‘on line.'” If we picture God as having a conversation with us in real time, then of course He will need to be able to access relevant information about us – including our names – from one moment to the next. In other words, He will need to keep it in His mind. And since a name, being inherently composite, cannot be compressed to a single bit, there can be no room for it in the simple mind of God.

But God is not in real time. God is beyond space and time. This is true regardless of whether one conceives of God as atemporal (totally outside time) as classical theists do, or as being omnitemporal (present at all points in time) subsequent to the creation of the universe, as Professor William Lane Craig does. On either analysis, God is not confined to a single location in time. In that case, God does not have to store information about our names in His mind for future retrieval; it’s always immediately there for Him.

“All right,” you may answer, “but if God is talking to me, and He calls me by my name, then the information about my name must still be in His mind, mustn’t it?” Not so. I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind. I would suggest that God knows facts about the world (including individuals’ names) simply by having access to the states of affairs which make them true (their truthmakers, in philosophical jargon). These facts don’t need to be “in God’s mind”; He just needs to be able to access them. The fact that grounds my having the name I do is that my parents gave it to me, shortly after I was born. God, who holds all things in being, was certainly present at this event: if He had not been present, my parents and I would not have been there, for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn’t need to be in His mind.

God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.

Argument B

Now let’s have a look at argument B. Here, the critical premise is premise 2: “Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.” Now, this is plausibly true for a computer that can speak a language. However, it is not true for human speakers, and it is certainly not true for God.

Consider the English language. It certainly contains a vast number of rules. However, most speakers of English don’t know these rules. Many people don’t know what a preposition is, for instance. And even if a well-educated child were aware of all the phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules of a language, he/she could not possibly articulate all of the semantic rules and pragmatic rules. Yet virtually all children manage to learn their native tongue and speak it with ease.

It may be objected that we have an implicit knowledge of the rules of a language, even if most of us seldon need to make this knowledge explicit. Moreover, it could be argued, nothing is hidden or “implicit” to God. If He knows things in the most perfect manner possible, then He must have an explicit knowledge of each and every rule of a language.

But this objection assumes that the most perfect way to know a language is to know the rules, and then to apply those rules when making sentences. That’s roughly how I speak Japanese, for instance – but then, Japanese is not my native language. To know a language properly is to be in possession of a certain set of habits, which are properly acquired from being around the native speakers of that language for a certain length of time (usually a few years). Sentences produced as a result of this natural exposure have an authenticity that can never come from reading a grammar book.

“All right,” I hear you say, “but what about God? How does God pick up the habits of a language?” The answer, once again, is that God has epistemic access to all events – past, present and future. He was present at those points in history when each human language was in the process of being created; and He is present wherever mothers pass their native language on to their children. By having access to all these events, God can legitimately be said to possess all of the habits that an authentic native speaker of any human language possesses. Indeed, God has had more linguistic exposure than any one of us could possibly hope to experience. God has seen it all. That’s why God has no difficulty in producing perfect sentences in English, Hebrew or any other human language.

Notice that these habits do not have to be “in” the mind of God. They are “out there” in the course of history, as human languages are being created, and as they evolve over time. God, who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future, has a perfect knowledge of these habits, without them being “in” His mind.

I will conclude by saying that in order to mount a successful argument against God, an atheist would have to show that the notion of a Being who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future is an incoherent one. This has not been done to date, and there are even atheist philosophers who contend that the notion of such a Being is defensible. David Misialowski, a self-described “agnostic atheist,” is a case in point. His articles on God’s foreknowledge (see here, here and here) are highly entertaining and well worth reading, whatever your theological perspective.

I would like to congratulate Dave Mullenix for putting forward two highly ingenious arguments against the existence of God. They are much better and more interesting than the arguments recently put forward by the New Atheists.

Comments
Ilion,
Driver: “ There is nothing more to be said between us.” That’s because you’re intellectually dishonest, such that you will not understand what has been said. Or, perhaps, you’re simply intellectually deficient, such that you cannot understand what has been said
My reply to you (as opposed to my reply to bornagain77) was in post 57 above. Whether you want to engage with that post or talk about how intellectually dishonest you think I am is completely up to you. I fail to see what you gain from the latter course of action, but if it makes you happy then go for it.Driver
July 4, 2011
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As for the OP, I have to agree with those who aren't too impressed with the original arguments. I think classical theists will straightaway dismiss A1 as begging the question against them - the idea that God's mind 'represents' or 'interacts with bits'. Even William Lane Craig, who I'm pretty sure isn't a classical theist, I recall as flatly objecting to the claim that mind/personhood requires temporality. Likewise the same for argument 2: Casting God as an entity composed of bits is (as others have pointed out) making assumptions the theists and classical theists aren't necessarily going to grant. That said, I liked VJTorley's replies - even as someone strongly sympathetic to classical theism, I admit there's more varieties of theism out there, and I don't dismiss all of them out of hand. I also recall Vox Day's arguments against omniscience, for a position which seems close to VJTorley's (in Vox's case, basically, the idea that God can know what He wants to know whenever He wants to know it).nullasalus
July 4, 2011
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By your logic Driver, you have just proved God. Driver: "It is, for example, I will note, impossible to exist outside of space and time, unless you are a god." The question becomes, what evidence do we have that anything exists beyond space-time? The answer is found in big bang cosmology. Where, as I'm sure you know, the universe had a beginning. The beginning of our universe is recognized as a singularity. Therefore the singularity event was the first cause of the universe, and thus the singularity event was outside space-time. By your logic, the singularity event is God. Big bang cosmology refutes the materialist worldview.junkdnaforlife
July 4, 2011
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But that argument can easily be turned round: if we experience existing, and we have no evidence of any processes in the universe other than Chance and Necessity, then we can infer that Chance and Necessity can create the experience of existing. We have plenty of evidence of processes other than Chance and Necessity - and we have next to no evidence of "chance" in the relevant sense (unguided, unplanned, undirected by any mind, etc.) Beyond that, the statement works in the assumption that 'experience' is something which needs to be created. But it's entirely possible that 'experience' is itself fundamental. Or that the universe is, at rock-bottom, mind-like or even mental.nullasalus
July 4, 2011
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Meleager:
EL said; “But that argument can easily be turned round: if we experience existing, and we have no evidence of any processes in the universe other than Chance and Necessity, then we can infer that Chance and Necessity can create the experience of existing.” You mean, we have no evidence of anything other than chance and necessity if we first assume our own intention, which we directly and empirically experience, is nothing more than an illusion generated by chance and necessity.
Right. It doesn't matter whether you start off with the assumption of duality or a monist assumption - you end up with a circular arguments. That should tell both sides, as it were, that there is something wrong with the problem statement.Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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Elizabeth, I just remembered. Here is a good link to articles by J.R.Lucas on the immateriality of the mind - proving that the mind is not a computer: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve2.html#soul-godel Feel free to peruse the other articles while you're over there. There are more arguments against materialism here: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/whybelieve2.html#soul-argumentsvjtorley
July 4, 2011
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Ilion:
Well, no. The truth of the matter is that rational argument has long ago (as in, thousands of years) demonstrated the falsity of materialism … and there will always be persons who, some few due to ignorance, most due to intellectual dishonesty, refuse to acknowledge this truth.
But what of those who simply, and honestly, disagree with you? Do you consider the possibility that perhaps they may know something that you don't, or that they may have spotted a flaw in an argument that you have missed? Because I know I do, when people disagree with me. Obviously I start with reasonable confidence that I am right. As a friend of mine says: if I thought I was wrong I'd change my mind. But by the same token, I want to be able to change my mind if I find out I'm wrong. And I can't do that if I don't consider the possiblity that I might be.Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle, I've decided to address your comments first. They get right to the heart of the matter. You write:
I’d say, if we release God from the requirement of simulating the outputs of actions ahead of time, and deciding on actions in the light of those simulations (which is how I would define "intention") then in what sense can the God we'd be left with intend anything?
You also add:
One problem, it seems to me, with discussions of this kind, is that we are not all talking about the same God.
All right. By "God" I mean a Being whose nature it is to know and love perfectly. These two attributes I regard as fundamental and necessarily inter-twined: perfect knowledge and perfect love. It is these which ground God's other attributes, including omnipotence, and which enable God to maintain the universe in being. Your earlier question about God's intentions goes to the heart of what we need a mind for. Here are some things that only a being with a mind can do: 1. Make rules - including the laws of nature. There would be no laws of nature if there were no God. 2. Follow rules - including moral rules. Keeping a promise, for instance, requires a mind. 3. Select the best option out of a range, the first time round. Fine tuning is a good illustration. 4. Make something that can perform a useful function - like ATP synthase. 5. Display an ongoing commitment to promoting someone's good - i.e. love someone. Despite the evils we encounter in this world, for reasons we are often unable to grasp, most of us are at least dimly aware that God loves us, throughout it all. 6. Explain your actions - which is something crows don't do regarding their impressive tool-making feats. God is perfectly capable of justifying himself, if He wishes to. 7. Express yourself in a language and hold a conversation with someone. God can certainly do that. There are at least seven tasks, then, that God can do, if and only if He has a mind. Now I'd like to ask: which of these tasks necessarily requires forward simulations? I can't see any logical reason why any of them do. You ask: how can God be said to intend anything without the need to plan ahead of time? First, even if God is outside time, God still needs to choose an appropriate means to achieve His ends. Thus there is certainly a logical order of priority in God's actions, even if there isn't a temporal one. And what is to prevent God from planning His actions outside time? "Forward" doesn't have to mean "temporally forward"; it can mean "logically forward". Second, intention isn't always about selecting the right means to achieve a given end. Sometimes we do make a choice of ends. Leonardo da Vinci could have chosen to devote himself entirely to art, or entirely to science, or to becoming a polymath. God could have chosen to make a very different world from ours - or no world at all. The fact that God made a world in which human beings can exist - a world which, I might add, is still fundamentally good and beautiful, shows that God loves us, evil notwithstanding. But of course, there's more to come - much more. I imagine you'll have something to say in response to this, but I won't be able to respond for a few hours. Talk to you later, Elizabeth. By the way, have you ever spoken to Dr. Edward Feser? He'd probably be able to straighten out your metaphysical and theological doubts better than I can. He's an ex-atheist, I might add, and a very interesting guy.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
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The demand for "civility" is the demand by Stockholm-syndromed worshippers of “niceness” (and of getting pats on the head from those who despise them) that the worshippers of truth join them in being mental prisoners to those who despise them. No thanks. I have *explained* why “intellectually dishonest” is appropriate in the instance. Mr Torley demands that I treat dishonesty as though it were truth. Mr Torley will also later state that this or that materialist is not being intellectually honest – he just won’t directly use the term; he’ll dance around the explicit term, but in the end, he will have made the same accusation, but without backing it up, as I have.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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There is also no "need" for truth, is there?Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Hi everyone. I've been rather busy, so I haven't had time to post until now. I'll be addressing what I see as the key objections, one by one. For now, I'd like to make one request: can we PLEASE keep this discussion civil. Calling someone a fool, a liar or willfully ignorant tends to create a rancorous atmosphere, so I'd like it to stop. There's just no need for it.vjtorley
July 4, 2011
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Exactly, Meleagar -- everyone *chooses* his beliefs. Some persons (not all of whom are materialists/atheists) prefer to believe that belief "just happen" to one, that one has no options in whether to believe or disbelieve a thing. Such persons are ignorant on the matter ... and, generally, willfully so.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Ilion said: "The truth of the matter is that rational argument has long ago (as in, thousands of years) demonstrated the falsity of materialism … and there will always be persons who, some few due to ignorance, most due to intellectual dishonesty, refuse to acknowledge this truth." Which serves to show the power of free will, in that obvious truth, overwhelming evidence and necessary logical conclusions can all be summarily ignored by the will that chooses to believe otherwise.Meleagar
July 4, 2011
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EL said; "But that argument can easily be turned round: if we experience existing, and we have no evidence of any processes in the universe other than Chance and Necessity, then we can infer that Chance and Necessity can create the experience of existing." You mean, we have no evidence of anything other than chance and necessity if we first assume our own intention, which we directly and empirically experience, is nothing more than an illusion generated by chance and necessity.Meleagar
July 4, 2011
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Driver: There is nothing more to be said between us.” That's because you're intellectually dishonest, such that you will not understand what has been said. Or, perhaps, you're simply intellectually deficient, such that you cannot understand what has been said. (Though I’m sure this isn’t the problem.) Still, if you want to go with this option, then it would be best if you stop torturing yourself by trying to dispute matters which are too deep for you. The only other potential explanation is that you lack some key information, such that you fail to understand what has been said. However, in this instance, this isn’t a live option, since you are being given the information, yet clearly refuse to receive it. === There are no other options to offer as a general explanation for why any person persists to asserting what is false, but these three: 1) the person simply lacks the intellect to understand the truth of the mater; 2) the person misunderstands or lacks some logically prior necessary knowledge, possession or understanding of which would allow him to recognize the truth of the matter and so correct his error; 3) the person simply is uninterested in understanding (or stating) the truth of the matter.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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But alas Driver, this is getting interesting, do you believe that absolute transcendent truth exists? If so, how do you justify it to your materialistic/atheistic basis? i.e. If you, if you were consistent, cannot explain the existence of absolute transcendent truth, how can you believe in the existence of lies? i.e. The very fact that you are offended at the notion of being called a liar testifies to the reality of a transcendent dimension which has precedence over this dimension. Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ What Would The World Look Like If Atheism Were Actually True? – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5486757/ This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Can atheists trust their own minds? – William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga’s Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-kbornagain77
July 4, 2011
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ba77, If I had lied, you would have been able to point out where I lied. There is nothing more to be said between us.Driver
July 4, 2011
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EL: "The thing is, that those who think that mind-body duality is evidenced by our own experience of mind have reason to think the duality is supported by evidence. . But, equally, those who think it isn’t, think there’s no reason to think that mind doesn’t arise from material forces. . In other words, argument really doesn’t get us anywhere! . Or, not this one." Well, no. The truth of the matter is that rational argument has long ago (as in, thousands of years) demonstrated the falsity of materialism ... and there will always be persons who, some few due to ignorance, most due to intellectual dishonesty, refuse to acknowledge this truth.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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God does not need a brain. God is not in need of being informed about anything.Mung
July 4, 2011
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notes: What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 It is also interesting to point out that this ‘inconsistent identity’, pointed out by Plantinga, which leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to make absolute truth claims for their beliefs, is what also leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to account for objective morality, in that neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a cause for objective morality; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE "Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlinesbornagain77
July 4, 2011
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Moreover Driver, if you were truly living consistent in your materialistic/atheistic worldview, you would deny that absolute transcendent truth actually existed, thus why should you be offended at being called a liar, when you, if you were consistent, would realize that truth does not actually exist and being called a liar would be meaningless???bornagain77
July 4, 2011
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Driver, the fact that you MAY believe your 'excuses' were coherent, does not make them any less of the superficial lies that they actually were.bornagain77
July 4, 2011
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ba77, The last time I responded to you, you replied by calling me a liar while failing to refute any of the points I had brought up. You yourself have closed the channel of communication between us. If you are serious about resuming the conversation then I trust you will show you truly wish to do so by actually responding in that other thread to my points in post 47.Driver
July 4, 2011
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EL: "In other words, there isn’t really an objective way of deciding whether mind-brain duality is true or not. So we are reduced to Occam’s Razor – or faith. Brains seem to explain minds." This is not actually true (and was shown false centuries ago). However, your faith-testimony is surely touching … at least, to other materialists/atheists. There is a reason that people like Paul and Patricia Churchland and Daniel Dennett assert that minds and thoughts and consciousness are illusions (never mind, for now, that this assertion is its own refutation) -- they *understand* what logically follows from materialism and God-denial, and they are simply asserting the inescapable conclusion of their premise, neverminding that the conclusion is patently absurd. You, on the other hand, imagine that you can side-step the conclusion by simply denying that it follows inescapably. === IF “brains explain minds” THEN brains also explain thoughts and propositions and reasoning (*) about the same. In other terms, to assert that “brains explain minds” is to assert that physical brain states explain and cause thoughts and propositions and reasoning about thoughts and propositions. IF “brains explain minds” THEN changes in physical brain states -- and never the content/meaning of the thoughts and propositions -- explain and cause one’s mental movement from ‘Thought A’ to ‘Thought B.’ That is, one does not, and cannot, “conclude” ‘Thought B’ by virtue of an understanding of the content/meaning of ‘Thought A;’ but rather, one has only imagined (another word that cannot fit into this materialistic world-view) that one has concluded ‘Thought B.’ For, as a physical brain state caused one to “think” ‘Thought A’ so too a different physical brain state caused one to “think” ‘Thought B’ -- but, one might as readily have been caused to “think” ‘Thought C.’ Materialism/atheism *denies* that thought, and reasoning, are even possible (**). (*) In truth, one needs to put scare-quotes around the words ‘thoughts’ and ‘propositions’ and ‘reasoning,’ for the assertion that “brains explain minds” denies that these things even exist. (**) Mind you, EL, I am confident that you will not admit this truth; nor do I particularly care that you do not -- I have no great objection to laughing at and mocking your self-chosen foolishness.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Driver why should you consider the fact that you yourself exist to be any less 'weird' than the proposition that a highest transcendent Being (God) exists? Moreover Driver, to put your burden of proof in perspective, exactly which materialistic parameter is going to prevent God from existing??? notes: ,,,Using the materialist same line of reasoning for an infinity of multiverses to explain the extreme fine-tuning of this one we can surmise; If it is infinitely possible for God to exist then He, of 100% certainty, must exist no matter how small the probability is of His existence in one of these other infinity of universes, and since He certainly must exist, then all possibilities in all universes automatically become subject to Him since He is, by definition, All Powerful. To clearly illustrate the absurdity of what the materialists now consider their cutting edge science: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to explain the fine tuning of this one also insures the 100% probability of the existence of Pink Unicorns no matter how small the probability is of them existing. In fact a infinity of universes insures the existence of an infinity of Pink Unicorns an infinite number of times. Thus it is self-evident the materialists have painted themselves into a inescapable corner of logical absurdities in trying to find an escape from the Theistic implications we are finding for the fine-tuning of this universe. The preceding argument has actually been made into a formal philosophical proof: Ontological Argument For God From The Many Worlds Hypothesis - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4784641 God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4 I like the following concluding comment about the ontological argument from the Dr. Plantinga video: "God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit." Ontological Argument – Dr. Plantinga (3:50 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXvVcWFrGQ Here are some more resources outlining the absurdity of the multiverse conjecture: The Multiverse Gods, final part - Robert Sheldon - June 2011 Excerpt: And so in our long journey through the purgatory of multiverse-theory, we discover as we previously discovered for materialism, there are two solutions, and only two. Either William Lane Craig is correct and multiverse-theory is just another ontological proof a personal Creator, or we follow Nietzsche into the dark nihilism of the loss of reason. Heaven or hell, there are no other solutions. http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2011/06/30/the_multiverse_gods,_final_part.thtmbornagain77
July 4, 2011
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It is, for example, I will note, impossible to exist outside of space and time, unless you are a god.Driver
July 4, 2011
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he will not receive correction of his ignorance; he is intellectually dishonest (which is worse than being merely a liar).
I love this site sometimes!Driver
July 4, 2011
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Ilion,
it is not the content of, and logical relationship between, two thoughts which prompts a reasoning entity to move from the one thought to the other, but rather it is some change-of-state of some matter which determines that an entity "thinks" any particular "thought" when it does
Your implicit premise here is that material sources are not capable of reason. The error is thinking that since a "change of state some matter" (actually electrical activity) determines that any entity thinks a thought therefore it cannot also be the case that the logical relationship between two thoughts prompts a thought. Not only is this assumption not necessarily true, by analogy we can see that it is probably false. For, it is very like saying that because a computer is material it cannot perform logic operations.Driver
July 4, 2011
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BA77: "It is interesting to note that materialists, instead of honestly dealing with the obvious theistic implications for ’cause’ as to quantum wave collapse, will many times invoke Everett’s Many Worlds interpretation, also referred to as decoherence, when dealing with quantum mechanics. Yet this ‘solution’ ends up creating profound absurdities of logic rather than providing any rational solution ..." Materialists/atheists will *always* retreat into absurdity and irrationality when pressed decisively, so as to protect their God-denial from serious evaluation. Their much self-touted commitment to ‘science’ and rationality is but a self-serving veneer; they can (and will) chuck it in an instant.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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Driver "Since God can, pretty much by definition, do six impossible things before breakfast, ..." As I said before I'd seen this tidbit, the man is a fool -- he is willfully ingorant; he will not receive correction of his ignorance; he is intellectually dishonest (which is worse than being merely a liar).Ilion
July 4, 2011
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