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Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix)

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Move over, Professor Richard Dawkins. Atheism has a new champion.

Dave Mullenix has recently come up with not one but two philosophical arguments for atheism. Mullenix’s arguments, unlike Dawkins’, aren’t based on inductive inference, but on the unassailable facts that (i) a certain minimal amount of information (usually several bits) is required to represent a proper name; and (ii) a very large amount of information is required to represent all of the rules we follow, when speaking a language. Any Being that knows your name must be able to keep your name in its mind. That means its mind must be able to store more than one bit, so it can’t be the simple God of classical theism. Moreover, any Being that knows all the rules of a language (as God does, being omniscient) must be extremely complex – much more so than the first cell, say. And if it’s very complex, then its own existence is inherently even more unlikely than that of the living creatures whose existence it is supposed to explain.

I believe in addressing arguments for atheism head-on, especially good ones, so here goes.

Commenting in response to a question which I had previously posed to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, “Why does a mind require something brain-like?”, Dave Mullenix argued as follows:

I would ignore brains and say instead that any mind needs billions of bits of carefully organized information to exist because a mind is, essentially, huge amounts of information interacting with each other. That’s what thoughts are – information acting on other information.

Think of it this way: Does God know your name? Just “vjtorley” is about 56 bits, although it could probably be compressed to half that. But just to give every one of the six billion plus people alive today a unique identifying code would take over 32 bits per person or several hundred billion bits of info total.

Or think of language in general: If He can understand English, He will need millions of bits of information just to cover the words, let alone how to put them together and do all the other processing that’s associated with understanding a language and that information needs to be “on line”.

This is the single biggest weakness in ID – ID in practice treats the existence of God as a given when in fact any thinking being at all, even a human-quality thinking being, requires so many gigabits of precisely ordered information that the unlikelyhood of that being “just existing” totally overshadows the relatively small information requirements (probably only a few hundred bits) of first life. And once you have first life, evolution can account for all the rest. Just ask Rabbi M. Averick.

I’ve taken the liberty of trying to make Dave Mullenix’s arguments against theism as philosophically rigorous as possible, and this is what I’ve come up with.

Argument A. An argument against the existence of the God of Classical Theism (an absolutely simple and omniscient Being)

1. Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.
2. Proper names (e.g. Sam or Meg) have a minimal representation in excess of one bit.
3. If God exists, God knows everyone’s name. (By definition, God is omniscient, according to classical theism.)
4. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains representations whose length exceeds one bit.
5. A representation in excess of one bit is composed of multiple (two or more) parts.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind has multiple parts.
7. But if God exists, God’s mind does not have multiple parts. (By definition, God is simple, according to classical theism.)
8. Therefore God does not exist. (If P->Q and P->not Q, then it follows that not P.)

This argument will not trouble all religious believers. Some of them might be tempted to say: “We can jettison classical theism but still retain our belief in God. Maybe God is omniscient, but complex.” But Dave Mullenix’s second argument discredits even this fallback position.

Argument B. An argument against the existence of an omniscient God who created life

1. If God exists, God knows each and every human language. (True by definition of omniscience.)
2. Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.
3. Rules have a minimal representation in excess of one bit. (A rule contains several words; hence you can’t represent a rule using only a single bit.)
4. Since the rules of a human language include not only phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules, but also semantic rules and pragmatic rules, the total number of rules in any given language is vast.
5. Therefore any entity that knows a language is capable of holding a vast number of bits of information (let’s call it N) in his/her mind.
6. Therefore if God exists, God’s mind contains an extremely large number of bits of information. In fact, this number is much larger than N, as N is the number of bits required to specify the rules of just one language, and there are roughly 10,000 languages in existence, to the nearest order of magnitude.
7. However, the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is smaller than N. (A living cell is complex, but it cannot be as complex as the total set of rules in a human language – otherwise we would be unable to describe the workings of the cell in human language.)
8. Indeed, it is probably the case that the total number of bits required to explain the existence of all life-forms found on Earth today is smaller than N. (Many ID advocates, including Professor Behe, are prepared to assume that front-loading is true. If it is, then the number of bits in the minimal representation of the first living cell is sufficient to explain the diversity of all life-forms found on Earth today.)
9. The more bits an entity requires to specify it, the more complex it is, and hence the more antecedently unlikely its existence is.
10. Therefore God’s existence is antecedently even more unlikely than the existence of life on Earth – the difficulties of abiogenesis notwithstanding.
11. An explanation which is antecedently even more unliklely than what it tries to explain is a bad explanation.
12. Hence invoking God (an omniscient Being) to explain life is a bad explanation.

A brief comment about the wisdom of choosing names

Before I go on, let me just say that the choice of names was a very clever one on Dave Mullenix’s part. Traditionally, Scholastic philosophers have maintained that God’s mind can store a vast number of concepts, in virtual form. How does God know what a dog is, what an E. coli bacterium is, and what an atom of gold is? The Scholastic reply has been that each of these entities must possess a kind of unity, or it wouldn’t be an individual. Therefore God, who knows all things in the most perfect manner possible, must have a unified concept of each of these kinds of entities. What’s more, God doesn’t even need to have separate and distinct concepts of each of these creatures. He only needs to have a concept of Himself as the possible cause of all these creatures, since He is able to create them all. Hence, simply by knowing Himself as a perfectly simple Being, God’s mind implicitly or virtually contains the concepts of all the various kinds of creatures which He is able to create.

Now, even if you buy that solution to the question of how God can have concepts of natural kinds, it certainly won’t work for names. Names don’t belong to any natural kind; they’re a human convention. And even if you were to maintain that God implicitly knows all names by knowing all possible combinations of letters or sounds, that wouldn’t explain how God knows your name – or how God knew Samuel’s name when He called him three times: “Samuel, Samuel.”

Argument A

OK. Let’s go back to argument A. What’s wrong with it? The problem, I believe, lies in premise 1: “Any entity that knows someone’s name has a representation of that name within his/her mind.”

At first blush premise 1 seems obvious: surely all knowledge has to be in the mind of the knower. However, I’d like to challenge this assumption. Why should this be so? A clue to why this seems so obvious is contained in Dave Mullenix’s words, “that information needs to be ‘on line.'” If we picture God as having a conversation with us in real time, then of course He will need to be able to access relevant information about us – including our names – from one moment to the next. In other words, He will need to keep it in His mind. And since a name, being inherently composite, cannot be compressed to a single bit, there can be no room for it in the simple mind of God.

But God is not in real time. God is beyond space and time. This is true regardless of whether one conceives of God as atemporal (totally outside time) as classical theists do, or as being omnitemporal (present at all points in time) subsequent to the creation of the universe, as Professor William Lane Craig does. On either analysis, God is not confined to a single location in time. In that case, God does not have to store information about our names in His mind for future retrieval; it’s always immediately there for Him.

“All right,” you may answer, “but if God is talking to me, and He calls me by my name, then the information about my name must still be in His mind, mustn’t it?” Not so. I would maintain that all God needs is to have access to your name; it doesn’t need to be “in” His mind. I would suggest that God knows facts about the world (including individuals’ names) simply by having access to the states of affairs which make them true (their truthmakers, in philosophical jargon). These facts don’t need to be “in God’s mind”; He just needs to be able to access them. The fact that grounds my having the name I do is that my parents gave it to me, shortly after I was born. God, who holds all things in being, was certainly present at this event: if He had not been present, my parents and I would not have been there, for “in Him we live and move and have our being” (Acts 17:28). If God has immediate epistemic access to the occasion when I acquired my name, then He automatically knows my name. It doesn’t need to be in His mind.

God, who holds all things, past, present and future, in existence, has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future. That’s how He is able to know my name.

Argument B

Now let’s have a look at argument B. Here, the critical premise is premise 2: “Any entity that knows a language has a representation of all the rules of that language within his/her mind.” Now, this is plausibly true for a computer that can speak a language. However, it is not true for human speakers, and it is certainly not true for God.

Consider the English language. It certainly contains a vast number of rules. However, most speakers of English don’t know these rules. Many people don’t know what a preposition is, for instance. And even if a well-educated child were aware of all the phonologic rules, morphologic rules and syntactic rules of a language, he/she could not possibly articulate all of the semantic rules and pragmatic rules. Yet virtually all children manage to learn their native tongue and speak it with ease.

It may be objected that we have an implicit knowledge of the rules of a language, even if most of us seldon need to make this knowledge explicit. Moreover, it could be argued, nothing is hidden or “implicit” to God. If He knows things in the most perfect manner possible, then He must have an explicit knowledge of each and every rule of a language.

But this objection assumes that the most perfect way to know a language is to know the rules, and then to apply those rules when making sentences. That’s roughly how I speak Japanese, for instance – but then, Japanese is not my native language. To know a language properly is to be in possession of a certain set of habits, which are properly acquired from being around the native speakers of that language for a certain length of time (usually a few years). Sentences produced as a result of this natural exposure have an authenticity that can never come from reading a grammar book.

“All right,” I hear you say, “but what about God? How does God pick up the habits of a language?” The answer, once again, is that God has epistemic access to all events – past, present and future. He was present at those points in history when each human language was in the process of being created; and He is present wherever mothers pass their native language on to their children. By having access to all these events, God can legitimately be said to possess all of the habits that an authentic native speaker of any human language possesses. Indeed, God has had more linguistic exposure than any one of us could possibly hope to experience. God has seen it all. That’s why God has no difficulty in producing perfect sentences in English, Hebrew or any other human language.

Notice that these habits do not have to be “in” the mind of God. They are “out there” in the course of history, as human languages are being created, and as they evolve over time. God, who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future, has a perfect knowledge of these habits, without them being “in” His mind.

I will conclude by saying that in order to mount a successful argument against God, an atheist would have to show that the notion of a Being who has immediate epistemic access to all events in the past, present and future is an incoherent one. This has not been done to date, and there are even atheist philosophers who contend that the notion of such a Being is defensible. David Misialowski, a self-described “agnostic atheist,” is a case in point. His articles on God’s foreknowledge (see here, here and here) are highly entertaining and well worth reading, whatever your theological perspective.

I would like to congratulate Dave Mullenix for putting forward two highly ingenious arguments against the existence of God. They are much better and more interesting than the arguments recently put forward by the New Atheists.

Comments
Driver: "You simply start from the premise that reason cannot arise from material sources and then affirm that as your conclusion!" Foolish, foolish man! I do nothing of the sort; you simply assert as a premise that I do, and then affirm the premise as your conclusion; without, clearly, having read, much less tried to understand, the argument. When you decide to be reasonable and rational, perhaps we can talk. But, so long as you hold yourself free to assert just anything, know that I do not waste my time with fools.Ilion
July 4, 2011
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if we accept as a premise that God is not, then we arrive at the conclusion that we cannot know truth and we cannot reason
You simply start from the premise that reason cannot arise from material sources and then affirm that as your conclusion!Driver
July 4, 2011
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One problem, it seems to me, with discussions of this kind, is that we are not all talking about the same God. So it is easy for theists (and I've done it myself) to respond: "oh, but that's not what God is/is like/the God of Christianity/the Abrahamic God" or whatever. The value in these conversations, it seems to me, is (to echo Aquinas) that it helps us see what God is not As allanius says, dmullenix has refuted Plato's God. Perhaps we can consider Zeus, Thor and others refuted as well. Which one remains? Or rather, what is the God that remains like? This is my problem - having gone through all the things that God cannot be, I ended up with nothing God-like at all. But that's because think that minds (and intentions) are caused by brains, not the other way round Yes, I know you disagree kf! You say: "Some materialists then suggest that consciousness is an “emergent” property of matter in the brain in action; one dependent on that matter for its existence and behaviour. But, "emergence" is itself immediately problematic: is "emergence" a euphemism for "Voila: poof!" . . . i.e "magic"?" No, I don't think it is a euphemism for magic. I think its perfectly straightforward - the properties of whole things have properties that can be quite different from the properties of their parts. An ocean wave is an obvious example, but so is a living human brain, I would argue, and one of those properties is mind.Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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EvilSnack:The theist need demonstate only that atheism contradicts what we observe.” Quite true. And one of those demonstrations is that if we accept as a premise that God is not, then we arrive at the conclusion that we cannot know truth and we cannot reason … and, ultimately, at the conclusion that we ourselves are not (and cannot be) (see here and here). Yet, here we are, and we do know truth and we do reason. Thus, the premise is false; thus the denial of the premise is true. It’s not at all difficult to irrefutably demonstrate that atheism is not only false, but cannot be true, And, since atheism cannot be true, then here never can be a good argument for it. And thus, one can reasonably expect that most, or even all, arguments for atheism will contain within them their own refutation. The only interesting question about any argument for atheism is, then, how cleverly has its presenter hidden the self-refutation?Ilion
July 4, 2011
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kf:
Dr Liddle, please re-examine the linked, my point is that a materialist position can neither ground the credibility of mind nor the basis for morality. You may think and you may do moral things, but you cannot ground them in the system. G
I have read your blog post on your ideas about mind-brain duality, thank you for the link. Although I find much to agree with, there are some points on which I profoundly disagree, but perhaps those would be best discussed on another thread! Perhaps you could post it as an OP? Or have you already done so? Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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My hat’s off to Mullenix. He has refuted Plato’s God. “Absolutely simple?” Please—show me the chapter and verse. And no babbling about “classical theism,” which is nothing more than a bad mixture of Classicism and Christianity. There is no Classicism in the Bible—none. You will not find any Greek concepts of value, including the notion that God is “absolutely simple.” You will not find one single verse that identifies intellect as “the good” or the essence of God (as does “classical theism”). You also will not find the divide between sense and intellect, immanence and transcendence, nothingness and being that naturally follows from equating intellect with the good. God is made up of “bits”? Who says? Doug Hofstadter? How hard is it to understand that the thought you have in your mind right now—assuming you have one—is not made up of “bits”? Do we have to resurrect Spencer and have him paddle you all over again for your sloppy use of language? Nor is it “absolutely simple,” by the way. Terms like “bits” and “absolutely simple” are nothing more than symbolic representations of something that exceeds the capacity of intellect for description. You have not, as you and the other Doug seem to think, moved beyond the problem of symbolic representation—or bait and switch—by using computer language to characterize ideas. You have simply made it more hip, and therefore more trite. Let’s take a look at “absolutely simple,” shall we? This characterization of God comes from the force of resistance to existence found in our unhappiness. Plato totalized this resistance as “the good,” which is how he arrived at the bizarre notion that God is absolutely simple—pure intellect, utterly devoid of the imperfections of matter, or “bits”; pure negation. His pupil objected to this characterization. He clearly understood Lizzie’s point that pure negation is nothingness, so he tried to save the equation of intellect with the good by using the concept of reciprocal “causes” to represent the good as pure action. Classical philosophy was divided between the idea that God is “absolutely simple” and that he is transcendently complex. And “classical theism” is divided in exactly the same way (Augustine and Thomas Aquinas). Note to Doug: Nihilism happened. “God is dead.” Classical theism, with its foolish blend of theology and Hellenism, has been annihilated, never to return. So you can stop beating a dead horse now. Hey, I’ve got an idea: why don’t see what you can do with Ecclesiastes and Job. It’s only fair to warn you, however—you won’t find a God there that you can caricature.allanius
July 4, 2011
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KF, if you want to raise a specific point then please do so. We all would love to have every word of our blogs read, but this is not the way to go about it! In order to have a conversation it is necessary to be reasonably concise. If you don't wish to further your points with less than 1000 words per point, then I understand, but I will have to step out of the conversation. I have no desire to research and write an essay at this time.Driver
July 4, 2011
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CY, The problem of inference to the supernatural and Hume's problem of miracles are genuine problems in this universe, for sure. That is hardly an argument for the existence of gods. It should be possible for any god to create a universe in which they could unambiguously demonstrate their presence.Driver
July 4, 2011
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Dr Liddle, please re-examine the linked, my point is that a materialist position can neither ground the credibility of mind nor the basis for morality. You may think and you may do moral things, but you cannot ground them in the system. Gkairosfocus
July 4, 2011
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Driver You obviously have not followed out and worked through the linked. Turnabout talking points are no answer in this context. Do your homework, then come back on comparative difficulties, please. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 4, 2011
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Erratum (me at #42
kf thinks (and I understand why) that because mind could not arise from Chance and Necessity, then our own experience of existing must be a delusion.
ouchElizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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KF, Thank you for your considered post.
why should we take what you type in seriously, if it is a product wholly produced and controlled by the chance and necessity that made you a jumped up bit of pond scum by way of some ape with a bigger brain than necessary to forage, then by unconscious psycho-social forces that are generally delusional?
So what is your evidence that a god or gods exist? That you take me seriously? I'm flattered. That you are incredulous of natural processes producing humans does not persuade me to abandon my atheism. You know what a God of the gaps argument is, of course.
if only brains exist, reason dissolves into absurdity
I think the pertinent part of the text you linked to is this
"For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms."
This makes the assumption that accurate reasoning about the world perceived by our senses is not beneficial. I think we can safely grant that accurate reasoning would be beneficial!
look at the evidence of mind beyond and behind the cosmos.
I'm sorry - that's a long text you linked to and I couldn't see evidence of a mind there. Could you summarise this evidence of a mind?
evolutionary materialism has in it no foundational is that can ground the ought implied by duties.
"Ought" is grounded in the community. Ultimately, moral duties and rights are grounded in our similarity, expressed through our capacity for reflexive thought, especially empathy. Rights are certainly functional. The challenge for the theist is to demonstrate that they have a genuine transcendent existence.Driver
July 4, 2011
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The thing is, that those who think that mind-body duality is evidenced by our own experience of mind have reason to think the duality is supported by evidence. But, equally, those who think it isn't, think there's no reason to think that mind doesn't arise from material forces. In other words, argument really doesn't get us anywhere! Or, not this one. Similarly: kf thinks (and I understand why) that because mind could arise from Chance and Necessity, then our own experience of existing must be a delusion. But that argument can easily be turned round: if we experience existing, and we have no evidence of any processes in the universe other than Chance and Necessity, then we can infer that Chance and Necessity can create the experience of existing. My own position is that the idea that materialism is reductionist is flawed. Positing that we are the product of material processes (including energy of course), does not, IMO, require that we are no more than those material processes. A whole can be greater, and have very different properties, than the sum of the parts. Or, if not, why not?Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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But nor, Driver would no doubt say, CY, have theists. Why should theism be a priori? Why should either?Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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Driver, What is your basis for the charge that God has not been demonstrated to exist? "Demonstrated" is a rather loaded term. If you're going to say that God has not been demonstrated by natural processes to exist, then you're still begging the question. To say that atheism is the default position or argument is to brush over the arguments for theism. I think that what you're really saying in not so many words is that "a priori materialism is my preferable position." Fine, but you have not "demonstrated" that such a position is warranted.CannuckianYankee
July 4, 2011
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Driver: what about minds? do they exist? as in, what are you using to interact with us? why should we take what you type in seriously, if it is a product wholly produced and controlled by the chance and necessity that made you a jumped up bit of pond scum by way of some ape with a bigger brain than necessary to forage, then by unconscious psycho-social forces that are generally delusional? are you anything beyond one more delusion? if only brains exist, reason dissolves into absurdity. why then, look at the evidence of mind beyond and behind the cosmos. next, do rights exist?(if you answer no, we already know you to be a menace to civil society.) if so, duties exist as a right is a legitimate expectation that others have a duty to one with rights, to respect life, liberty, reputation, etc. evolutionary materialism has in it no foundational is that can ground the ought implied by duties. it is absurd through being inescapably amoral. the only is that rises to that level, is the good God who is author of the cosmos. why Atheism -- despite the clever talking point that the Darwin zealot, new atheist fever swamp drums beat out so intoxicatingly -- is not the default, it is a key part of a worldview subject to comparative difficulties on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. one that is incoherent, factually inadequate and severely lacking in explanatory power. one that is severely challenged to ground virtue and even civility. g'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 4, 2011
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It is interesting to note that this quantum information which is found on a massive scale in our body, and which is not reducible to matter-energy time-space, is 'conserved': Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Thus giving very strong support to this 'transition' from the 3-Dimension lower dimension to the higher 'eternal' dimension: It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ ============ “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.” Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Experimental_confirmation It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies: ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’ Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiencesbornagain77
July 4, 2011
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as to: 'Brains seem to explain minds. Why posit anything else?' Really??? well let's see why,,, Quantum mind–body problem Parallels between quantum mechanics and mind/body dualism were first drawn by the founders of quantum mechanics including Erwin Schrödinger, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Niels Bohr, and Eugene Wigner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind%E2%80%93body_problem Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html The Mind and Materialist Superstition - Six "conditions of mind" that are irreconcilable with materialism: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ,,, as well quantum non-local information, which is not reducible to any space-time matter-energy cause is found to be 'inside' (if it be proper to say that) our brains: Mind-Brain Interaction and Science Fiction (Quantum connection) - Jeffrey Schwartz & Michael Egnor - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-01T17_28_39-08_00 Quantum Coherence and Consciousness – Scientific Proof of ‘Mind’ – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6266865/ Particular quote of note from preceding video; “Wolf Singer Director of the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research (Frankfurt) has found evidence of simultaneous oscillations in separate areas of the cortex, accurately synchronized in phase as well as frequency. He suggests that the oscillations are synchronized from some common source, but the actual source has never been located.” James J. Hurtak, Ph.D. – Ph.D. on non-local consciousness f/n; Study suggests precognition may be possible - November 2010 Excerpt: A Cornell University scientist has demonstrated that psi anomalies, more commonly known as precognition, premonitions or extra-sensory perception (ESP), really do exist at a statistically significant level. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-precognition.html Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiment, "Since you ultimately believe that the 'god of random chance' produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?" and quantum non-local information, which is not reducible to any space-time matter-energy constraints, is also found to be in every DNA and protein molecule of our bodies: Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Ybornagain77
July 4, 2011
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CY, I don't believe in things which have not been demonstrated to exist. That is a default epistemological position. I'm not much interested in proving that gods can't exist. Nor am I very much interested in someone showing that gods are possible. I would become interested in the question once someone could show that gods do exist. My position on gods is the same as yours on all other things that have not been demonstrated to exist. In fact, my position on gods is probably the same as yours on most gods.Driver
July 4, 2011
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CY: most atheist don't assert that God doesn't exist, but that there is no reason to believe God does exist. My position is actually "strong atheism" - I assert that God (as usually described) doesn't exist. That's because the only meaningful answer I could provide to the question "why is there anything rather than nothing" would require that something intended there to be anything rather than nothing. And intention seems to me to require material processes. So, if the placeholder entity that I sometimes call "theta" that is the answer to the question "why is there something rather than nothing" cannot have the property of being intentional, then I don't recognise it either as anything that I would want to call "God". Because "God", if worthy of worship, has to be good, right? And how can a non-intentional entity be good? Good, on the other hand, does exist in the world, and is worthy of worship IMO :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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CY: indeed, but the reverse is also true: for mind-brain duality to be true you require that it is possible for mind to exist independently of brains! In other words, there isn't really an objective way of deciding whether mind-brain duality is true or not. So we are reduced to Occam's Razor - or faith. Brains seem to explain minds. Why posit anything else?Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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as to this statement: 'We cannot apply rules of cause and effect to someone outside our rule based cosmos' Actually inferring to a 'cause' is very important for the Theistic position: ============ notes: This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the 'spooky actions', for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are 'universal and instantaneous': Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm And of course all this leads us back to this question. "What does our conscious observation have to do with anything in collapsing the wave function of the photon in the double slit experiment and in the universe?", and furthermore "What is causing the quantum waves to collapse from their 'higher dimension' in the first place since we humans are definitely not the ones who are causing the photon waves to collapse to their 'uncertain 3D wave/particle' state?" With the refutation of the materialistic 'hidden variable' argument and with the patent absurdity of the materialistic 'Many-Worlds' hypothesis, then I can only think of one sufficient explanation for quantum wave collapse to photon; Psalm 118:27 God is the LORD, who hath shown us light:,,, =========== "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter." Max Planck - The Father Of Quantum Mechanics - Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." ===================== Does God Exist? - Argument From The Origin Of Nature - Kirk Durston - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4171846/ The First Cause Must Be Different From All Other Causes - T.G. Peeler https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/genomic-junk-and-evolution/#comment-358648 Einstein's general relativity equation has now been extended to confirm not only did matter and energy have a beginning in the Big Bang, but space-time also had a beginning. i.e. The Big Bang was an absolute origin of space-time, matter-energy, and as such demands a cause which transcends space-time, matter-energy. "Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 In conjunction with the mathematical, and logical, necessity of an 'Uncaused Cause' to explain the beginning of the universe, in philosophy it has been shown that,,, "The 'First Mover' is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor - Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html I find this centuries old philosophical argument, for the necessity of a 'First Mover' accounting for change occurring at each moment, to be validated by quantum mechanics. This is since the possibility for the universe to be considered a self-sustaining 'closed loop' of cause and effect is removed with the refutation of the 'hidden variable' argument, as first postulated by Einstein, in entanglement experiments. (A. Aspect) As well, there also must be a sufficient transcendent cause (God/First Mover) to explain quantum wave collapse for 'each moment' of the universe.(J. Wheeler) It is interesting to note that materialists, instead of honestly dealing with the obvious theistic implications for 'cause' as to quantum wave collapse, will many times invoke Everett's Many Worlds interpretation, also referred to as decoherence, when dealing with quantum mechanics. Yet this 'solution' ends up creating profound absurdities of logic rather than providing any rational solution: Quantum mechanics Excerpt: The Everett many-worlds interpretation, formulated in 1956, holds that all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a multiverse composed of mostly independent parallel universes.[39] This is not accomplished by introducing some new axiom to quantum mechanics, but on the contrary by removing the axiom of the collapse of the wave packet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics Perhaps some may say that Everett’s Many Worlds interpretation of infinite parallel universes is not so absurd after all, if so,, then in some other parallel universe in which you also live, Elvis just so happens to be president of the United states, and you just so happen to come to the opposite conclusion, in that parallel universe, that Many Worlds is in fact absurd! For me, I find that type of 'flexible thinking', stemming from Many Worlds, to be completely absurd!!! Moreover, that one example from Many Worlds, of Elvis being President, is just small potatoes to the levels of absurdity that we would actually be witnessing if Many Worlds were the truth for how reality was constructed. ======================= Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 ========================= God of Wonders - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CBNE25rtnEbornagain77
July 4, 2011
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Driver, "I find that atheism doesn’t need an argument. It is the default position until it can be demonstrated that any gods exist." I find that a person making such arguments hasn't done much thought on why atheism is true, let alone on why God can't exist. If you can't demonstrate atheism to be true, it isn't a default argument.CannuckianYankee
July 4, 2011
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Lizzie, "how could a mind not require something brain-like?" When a mind is more than simply the internal workings of a brain. If you assume that only brains provide awareness, then you are back to Plantinga's (see 24) issue with the a priori assumption of materialism. You and dmullinex require materialism to be true for your arguments to be true. I hate to point this out, but that is a question begged to the extreme.CannuckianYankee
July 4, 2011
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Since God can, pretty much by definition, do six impossible things before breakfast, arguments purporting to show the impossibility or unlikelihood of gods are rarely good arguments. There is invariably a way around them (God exists outside of Time, God is omniscient etc etc). I find that atheism doesn't need an argument. It is the default position until it can be demonstrated that any gods exist.Driver
July 4, 2011
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sorry for the typosidnet.com.au
July 4, 2011
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I think Dawkins does argue thet God is an inadequate explanation for complexity becaued a designer must be more complex that his design. I think that this holds true in the cosmos we live in. Christian theists hold that God does not inhabit our cosmos, our cosmos subsists in Him. We cannot apply rules of cause and effect to someone outside our rule based cosmos, and more than a character in a computer game can apply the rules of the game to the humans outside cyberspace.idnet.com.au
July 4, 2011
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Once again, an atheist's contribution to theology is to demonstrate that he is a very poor theologian. His argument that God, by virtue of being more complex than life, cannot be an acceptable explanation for life, is merely his own opinion. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has rebutted this notion: "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." The theist need demonstate only that atheism contradicts what we observe.EvilSnack
July 4, 2011
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To turn your question round, vjtorley, how could a mind not require something brain-like? It seems to me that this is what Dave Mullenix has done - has demonstrated that if we release God from the requirement of storing and accessing information (which is at least one of the properties of a brain), then in what sense are we left with a mind? I'd put it differently, myself: I'd say, if we release God from the requirement of simulating the outputs of actions ahead of time, and deciding on actions in the light of those simulations (which is how I would define "intention") then in what sense can the God we'd be left with intend anything? Of course the rebuttal to that is: if God is omniscient, then no forward model is required, and if God is beyond time, the concept is irrelevant anyway. That's essentially the answer I gave for about 50 years, minus my earliest ones (I was quite early on to the concept of infinity though!). Then it dawned on me: what am I actually saying here? Does the God that describes mean anything at all? I'm not convinced it does. It seems to me that all I've done is described God as nothing. My description exists - but is there left any sense in which God does? (Yes, is my answer, but Not-As-We-Know-It :))Elizabeth Liddle
July 4, 2011
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Thanks jdnafl. (A very complex name simplified). :)CannuckianYankee
July 3, 2011
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