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Two Wrongs Don’t Make a Right

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An article in Ecology letters, entitled: “Eco-evolutionary Dynamics in Response to Selection on Life-history,” deals with research conducted on “soil mites that were collected from the wild and then raised in 18 glass tubes.” The researchers
found significant genetically transmitted changes in laboratory populations of soil mites in just 15 generations, leading to a doubling of the age at which the mites reached adulthood and large changes in population size.

At Phys.Org, they write:

Although previous research has implied a link between short-term changes in animal species’ physical characteristics and evolution, the Leeds-led study is the first to prove a causal relationship between rapid genetic evolution and animal population dynamics in a controlled experimental setting.

Further, lead author Tom Cameron tells us:

“We saw significant evolutionary changes relatively quickly. The age of maturity of the mites in the tubes doubled over about 15 generations, because they were competing in a different way than they would in the wild. Removing the adults caused them to remain as juveniles even longer because the genetics were responding to the high chance that they were going to die as soon as they matured. When they did eventually mature, they were so enormous they could lay all of their eggs very quickly.”

Co-author Tim Benton states:

“This demonstrates that short-term ecological change and evolution are completely intertwined and cannot reasonably be considered separate.

There are two things to note:
(1) Darwin insisted on gradual change. This is not “gradual” change, but “rapid” change. You might remember those lizards on the Adriatic Islands that developed cecal valves in probably 20 generations or less.
(2) The vacuousness of the phrase “evolutionary change.” The term that should be used is “adaptive change,” for that is EXACTLY what is happening. The organisms doesn’t change in a way that has any evolutionary importance; it just simply changes.
(3) This “rapid” change indicates that “gene frequencies” cannot be changing, simply because the changes are occurring too rapidly. So, the likely instrument of these “rapid” changes is a change in gene expression, and hence, the turning on, and the turning off of gene promoters, which can easily happen via RNA–and, it can happen in a way that is inherited a la “Lamarkian” notions–not Darwinian.

None of what is being reported is consistent with either Darwinian, or neo-Darwinian, mechanisms. This is just a plain fact. You see, two “wrongs”—being wrong in the Darwinian and neo-Darwinian sense—does not make a “right.”

But “true believers” never let facts get in the way. However, there are so many of these inconvenient facts that day-by-day are collecting that it is but a matter of time before the whole Darwinian artifice comes tumbling down.

Comments
Psalm 82:7 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler."bornagain77
April 11, 2013
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thanks BA77, I appreciate your replyAspire to Solomon
April 11, 2013
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And to suggest that that the life on earth that God made is, in essence, worthless, makes our choices in life of no consequence to neither God nor man, does it not? And if our choices don't matter, and our bodies don't matter, it's hard to say that we matter at all, isn't it?Aspire to Solomon
April 11, 2013
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ATS, I did not 'kick sand in your face'. I merely pointed out the lack of rigor for any evidential basis to your preferred theological position.,, i.e. You 'want' to believe that the information in DNA is not corroding. I showed you from empirical evidence why we have very strong reason to believe what you prefer to believe, theologically, is not so empirically.,,, Being wrong is not pleasant, but please do not take me correcting you on this foundational point as to me being a bully towards you. Not that I have not lost patience before and been short towards people, but that simply is not the case in this instance.bornagain77
April 11, 2013
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butifnot; The fall ATS. Physical decay and physical death awaits us all and the whole universe. Dust to dust, and our value is not in our physical bodies, which will be remade/restored anyways. And our genome seems adequate for the time-span thus far. You have a familiar writing style? Not sure what you mean in regards to my writing style haha. Yes, I am familiar with "the fall" concept. I am not doubting that a fall exist. The amount of clearly visible death and destruction in the world makes that quite clear. I am doubting that the fall means everything that BA77, or probably others, say it means, in terms of the reasons why it happens, and what that means for life on earth. If the physical world contains no value, that why did God create it, and why does he hold us to such high standards in how we conduct ourselves in it? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "adequate". Adequate by what standard? Also, remade/restored to what?Aspire to Solomon
April 11, 2013
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Bornagain77, did you read through my post, or just glance over them? Do you think this is some sort of game, some sort of contest? I came here with questions, expecting answers. You seem more interested in kicking sand in my face. I was very careful to keep my scientific and theological objections separate, but you seem to think that my scientific skepticism is nothing more than a thinly veiled theological attack (very common attitude amongst Darwinist, as I'm sure your aware)....to which, you simply added your own theological interpretation, which said nothing about the truth status of my own. At any rate, some epistemological humility would do you some good. I have tried to be as cordial as possible, but have been reluctant to ask you more questions because the things that I am particularly concerned about, you cavalierly dismiss as unimportant, ignore, or don't address explicitly. I came here asking questions to expand my understanding from those who I believed had much to offer, such as yourself, not to have my questions and concerns mocked and ridiculed. Further more, you didn't even answer my questions! There were two questions that I made especially clear that I wanted answers to, you ignored both of them. It's a good thing I was already a Christian when I talked to you, because your ambassador skills are lacking.Aspire to Solomon
April 11, 2013
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On a different note bornagain, as one Christian to another, you seem to be suggesting that God does not create every individual with the same time and dedication that he created the first ones, adam and eve. Adam and Eve get a robust gene pool. Their children and grand children; not so much. Not that this necessarily matters, but this strikes me as rather offensive, it seems like a direct attack on value of my own existence, one I’m used to encountering from Darwinist, not Christians
The fall ATS. Physical decay and physical death awaits us all and the whole universe. Dust to dust, and our value is not in our physical bodies, which will be remade/restored anyways. And our genome seems adequate for the time-span thus far. You have a familiar writing style?butifnot
April 10, 2013
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Slijper dissected [the goat] and documented remarkable changes in muscle and bone, including striking changes in the bones of the hind legs; the leg muscles, including a greatly thickened and elongated gluteal tongue and an innovative arrangement of small tendons, a modified shape of the thoracic skeleton, and extensive modifications of the pelvis.
Imagine the headlines if a similar goat were found in fossil form: "New transitional fossil found! Goat ancestral to Kangaroo!"Phinehas
April 10, 2013
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Nick Matzke: So…you’re saying that gene frequencies cannot change in 15 generations? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Yes, Nick, I think I do. If you look at the paper, you'll see that within 5 generations needed changes already appeared to 'save' the population from 'extinction.' From what I can see from the paper, the populations numbered about 600 maximally. Now 5 x 600 = 3,000 replications. What, exactly, Nick, can possibly happen, from a statistical point of view, to gene frequencies with this number of genome replications? Any answers?PaV
April 10, 2013
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ATS, it seems you are heavily indebted to a particular interpretation of Theology for your beliefs and hardly at all indebted to what the evidence actually says. For instance, when I claim that the 'information' in DNA is 'corroding', and you object on Theological grounds, I can cite actual evidence to support my position,,,
Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design - Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: "Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens."
I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found:
HGMD®: Now celebrating our 100,000 mutation milestone! http://www.hgmd.org/
That 100,000 figure is even higher now! Or I can cite,,,
“Our Missing Genes” - The Scientist - February 18, 2012 Excerpt: On average, a person will have about 20 genes that are completely “lost”—meaning that both alleles have inactivating mutations. https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/at-least-1-percent-of-human-genes-can-be-shut-down-without-causing-serious-disease/ Human Genome in Meltdown - January 11, 2013 Excerpt: According to a study published Jan. 10 in Nature by geneticists from 4 universities including Harvard, “Analysis of 6,515 exomes reveals the recent origin of most human protein-coding variants.”,,,: "We estimate that approximately 73% of all protein-coding SNVs [single-nucleotide variants] and approximately 86% of SNVs predicted to be deleterious arose in the past 5,000 -10,000 years. The average age of deleterious SNVs varied significantly across molecular pathways, and disease genes contained a significantly higher proportion of recently arisen deleterious SNVs than other genes.",,, As for advantageous mutations, they provided NO examples,,, http://crev.info/2013/01/human-genome-in-meltdown/
Or I can cite,,,
New analysis provides fuller picture of human expansion from Africa - October 22, 2012 Excerpt: A new, comprehensive review of humans' anthropological and genetic records gives the most up-to-date story of the "Out of Africa" expansion that occurred about 45,000 to 60,000 years ago. This expansion, detailed by three Stanford geneticists, had a dramatic effect on human genetic diversity, which persists in present-day populations. As a small group of modern humans migrated out of Africa into Eurasia and the Americas, their genetic diversity was substantially reduced. http://phys.org/news/2012-10-analysis-fuller-picture-human-expansion.html "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036840
As far as being firmly grounded Theologically, I can quote,,
Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
etc.. ATS, and though I have not cited nor discussed any of the specific evidence for God sustaining the universe, nor any any of the specific evidence of God creating life in it, it seems that you are bucking against the entire 'fallen world' concept in that God 'allows' a certain amount of 'evil' to happen by his permissive will so that a greater good, which He has in mind, can be accomplished. Thus IMO, as far as I can tell, I'm on firmer ground than you currently are both scientifically and Theologically.bornagain77
April 10, 2013
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Gene frequencies can change in one generation.Joe
April 10, 2013
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This “rapid” change indicates that “gene frequencies” cannot be changing, simply because the changes are occurring too rapidly.
So...you're saying that gene frequencies cannot change in 15 generations? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?NickMatzke_UD
April 10, 2013
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BA77 I know this is alot of information, but it is very important to me, I have a lot on my mind haha, and the time you take addressing these points is something I very much appreciate.Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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On a different note bornagain, as one Christian to another, you seem to be suggesting that God does not create every individual with the same time and dedication that he created the first ones, adam and eve. Adam and Eve get a robust gene pool. Their children and grand children; not so much. Not that this necessarily matters, but this strikes me as rather offensive, it seems like a direct attack on value of my own existence, one I'm used to encountering from Darwinist, not ChristiansAspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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sorry the last paragraph needed some editingAspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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there are some other lesser points you've made that I'd like to address too. "And how does having a extremely sophisticated, ‘front loaded’, environmental response mechanism in place counter the relentless accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations?" Interesting. Sounds like a very deistic, newtonian designer to me. I'm sure Einstein, Benjamin Franklin and Darwin would be pleased at such an idea. ;) But to answer your question, and again, this is also a big point that I have that I would like if you addressed specifically. it is **if it isn't countering the relentless accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations, it's by definition not a environmental response mechanism. that's why the mutations occur. Because there is no response, and thus, mutations develop, like weeds in a garden.** I am also under the impression that front loading is still very much an open question as far as scientific data is concerned. That aside, are you seriously suggesting that the intelligent designer designs the ancestors of his creation according to a different specification than their progeny? Do you believe he even directly intervenes in life creation at all, or is the just the first ones who receive such special divine attention? the others, well, he just let's them fall apart. Sure extremely sophisticated DNA repair mechanisms are in place, but this does not negate the fact that there is now overwhelming evidence giving us very good reason to believe that information in life is slowly ‘corroding’." Well I guess that's going to depend on what information is, isn't it! :) How do you know what information is, let alone that it is corroding? And who said creation was front loaded? You seem to be suggesting that we we made to different specifications that our originators, and I'm not sure on what basis we should believe that to be so. You seem to suggest that information is a passive, material entity, a one time flash in a pan, and I'm simply not sure that's true.Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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BA77, I would appreciate your thoughts on the postulation I made earlier of what seems like a reasonable alternative to me, regarding theoretical genome stability. "No. Genes are not ‘destiny’ for the simple fact that the entirety of body plan information is not reducible to the information in DNA. As you have brought this up before, this seems to be a sticking point for you." It very much is a sticking point for me, and I appreciate that you noticed. I'm gonna put this next sentence in asterix, because it really cuts to the heart of what I take issue with, and my number one objection to GE. In fact, I insist that you address this very specific point: **if body plan information is not reducible to information that is in DNA, then why is DNA degradation alone, in itself, capable of destroying our body plans, and further more, inherently inclined to do so? If it doesn't make the plans, it sure does seem to have an awful lot of control over them.**Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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Thanks BA77 for your prompt courteous reply. I will look over what you have sent me. In the meantime, anyone else is welcome to jump in!Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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It just doesn't seem reasonable to me, given how enormously underestimated our ability to adapt is, that the species could not, under the right environmental conditions over an extended period of time, intelligently adapt (NOT evolve, bear in mind) in such a fashion as to avoid this fate by creating and selecting what genetic information is needed at any given time.Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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as to: "But doesn’t that contradict genetic entropy?" And how does having a extremely sophisticated, 'front loaded', environmental response mechanism in place counter the relentless accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations? Sure extremely sophisticated DNA repair mechanisms are in place, but this does not negate the fact that there is now overwhelming evidence giving us very good reason to believe that information in life is slowly 'corroding'. as to: "Is not inevitable extinction as a unavoidable consequence, simply on the basis of genes, not a admission that genes are destiny?" No. Genes are not 'destiny' for the simple fact that the entirety of body plan information is not reducible to the information in DNA. As you have brought this up before, this seems to be a sticking point for you. If you don't mind, might I suggest, to help you past this sticking point, that you pre-order Stephen Meyer's new book "Darwin's Doubt',,, due out in early June,,, http://darwinsdoubt.com/ ,, In which I am sure Dr. Meyer will, among other things, clearly articulate why the molecular (genetic) reductionism model of neo-Darwinism is woefully inadequate to explain body plans from DNA alone: Three (or Four) Reasons Everyone Should Read Darwin's Doubt Casey Luskin - April 9, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/three_or_four_r071001.htmlbornagain77
April 10, 2013
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I don't see how you can believe that our bodies make directed actions to avoid death, but at the same time, also refrain from making life sustaining actions entirely within it's control, even if placed under the best conditions for doing so. I don't understand why the genome could not stay in a state of stasis, given the right environmental conditions.Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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Hey BA77, hope all is well. This question is directly primarily at BA77, but of course anyone is welcome to answer. I’ve been reading a lot of your post on adaptive mutations and epigenetics. Here is what I don’t understand. You claim that these things undermine genetic determinism because it demonstrates that it is environmental conditions and choices therein, as opposed to genes, that ultimately cause our bodies, as well as all life on earth, to change. But doesn’t that contradict genetic entropy? If I am not mistaken, the core concept of GE is that we are on a unavoidable path to self destruction, INDEPENDENTLY of our environmental conditions and choices, because of inherent flaws within our genes themselves (and those flaws, apparently, are not only irreversible, but determine our ability to survive, which apparently, isn’t going to be very long). We don’t simply die as individuals; the species as a whole, the genome itself, has a death clock independent of the environment. Is not inevitable extinction as a unavoidable consequence, simply on the basis of genes, not a admission that genes are destiny? Because if we had the ability to adapt to the environment, wouldn’t the body, given the right environmental conditions, be able to reverse the transcription errors? If genes do not determine our fate, then why would genetic decay even matter? I hope these questions make sense. By the way these are separate questions, and I would appreciate it if you responded to these questions individually. Thanks! Also, anyone is welcome to take a stab at what I’m saying :)Aspire to Solomon
April 10, 2013
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JLAfan2001, This is an analogy of what happened to the lizard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVwhrJirgp0 Designed or random?bb
April 10, 2013
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Wholesale 'changes' within dozens of generations, some of which can be lost in weeks(!) are not 'evolutionary changes' by definition. This type of environment instigated response is a preexisting, contingent, response 'protocol', coded and present somewhere.butifnot
April 10, 2013
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From Bornagain's quote at #5,
"These observations call for a more flexible view of the digestive system in lizards."
Perhaps a more flexible view of evolution would be convenient as well. If we consider that evolution can be rapid or gradual, selective or neutral, vertical or horizontal, genetic or epigenetic, plastic or adaptive, and either random or goal-directed, then we achieve a robust definition of evolution that should accommodate any observation for some time to come. :PChance Ratcliff
April 9, 2013
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OT: here's a neat picture - 550 million year old fossil fish - "Most major animal groups appear suddenly in the fossil record 550 million years ago, but vertebrates have been absent from this 'Big Bang' of life. Two fish-like animals from Early Cambrian rocks now fill this gap." "Lower Cambrian Vertebrates from South China" - Nov. 1999 http://www.evolutionnews.org/cambrianfish.jpg Three (or Four) Reasons Everyone Should Read Darwin's Doubt - Casey Luskin - April 9, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/three_or_four_r071001.htmlbornagain77
April 9, 2013
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JLAFan2001 @23, why label gradual evolution, "Rapid Evolution"? Which is it, rapid, or gradual? Did the cecal valve evolve by slight successive modifications, each conferring a selectable advantage? Nope. Were the novelties the result of random mutations which were irrespective of outcome? Nuh uh. So here we have rapid appearance of traits that weren't selected in stages, and weren't random but rather a pre-programmed goal-directed response to an environmental trigger; but it's still Darwinian, yes? ;)Chance Ratcliff
April 9, 2013
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JLAfan2001 #21 do read Bornagain77’s post #5:
Many comparative studies have tacitly assumed that the distinctive features of plant-eating lizards (large body size, skull dimensions, special dentition, gut morphology) are a product of genetic adaptation to the special demands of a plant-based diet (e.g., Van Damme 1999; Cooper and Vitt 2002; Espinoza et al. 2004; Herrel et al. 2008). Our results suggest that in P. sicula, at least some of the changes associated with a dietary shift toward a higher proportion of plant material may be plastic. Specimens from the Pod Mrc?aru population, which in nature eat substantial amounts of plant material (Herrel et al. 2008), exhibited a reduction in digestive tract length and a total loss of cecal valves after having been fed an exclusively arthropod diet for 15 wk. Although parts of their gastroinstestinal systems were still better developed than those of specimens feeding mainly on arthropods in the wild, it seems likely that a prolonged exposure to an animal-based diet would have erased even those differences. These observations call for a more flexible view of the digestive system in lizards.
Box
April 9, 2013
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Chance Ratliff “…If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” – Charles Darwin, Origin of Species, Chapter 6 Butifnot "JLAfan2001, those lizards did not generate a new body plan, de novo, in a few generations. All observed evidence shows that change can not be continued indefinately – organisms steadfastly remain what they are." Do you see the contradiction here, guys? Either there was a gradual change over time (which means Darwin was right) or the body plans appeared de novo. Which was it? IMO, I would bet that if you looked at the first 29 generations, you would indeed see slight changes or time. I seriously doubt that they were just the same until "poof" new skulls and guts in the 30th generation.JLAfan2001
April 9, 2013
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Going back to the mites. Did the researchers attempt, and fail, to crossbreed the isolated mites with fresh wild ones to confirm that the lab mites had become a new species? Humans have been breeding odd varieties of dogs for thousands of years. But there's still only 1 species of dog: they have NOT evolved. If the mites haven't mutated into a new species then they're just Great Dane mites. Nothing unusual about that.mahuna
April 9, 2013
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