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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Reciprocating Bill:
Fourth is the Silence of the Bipeds on the question of the origins of the entailments/the TRI/semiotic states – which one might have assumed was the point of the entire empty exercise.
The Silence of the Detractors on the question of the origins of the entailments/the TRI/semiotic states was the point. Your failure to adequately identify and respond to the point demonstrates that the exercise was not empty. The OP still awaits a rebuttal of either the logic or the evidence.Mung
November 11, 2012
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Alan Fox posts, but has nothing interesting to say about the argument other than it wasn’t what he thought it was.
I hope that doesn't mean he's no longer interested. We really need someone to take up the vacuum left by onlooker's forays into the thread.Mung
November 11, 2012
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keiths:
Indeed, I am almost certain (from long experience) that Upright would like to avoid my questions by focusing instead on irrelevant details.
More irony. Irrelevant details like the ones set out in the OP? Irrelevant details like logic and empirical facts? The ones you assiduously avoid?
First let’s consider the simplest type of self-replication, in which a molecule S generates a copy of itself by reacting directly with its components (C0, C1, …Cn):
How do you know that's the simplest type of self-replication? What facts are you relying on? What theoretical studies can you refer us to? I say there is no such thing as a self-replicator, so there is no such thing as a "simplest type" of self-replicator.
1. Has recorded information been transferred from the original molecule S to its copy?
You haven't recorded any information, so you haven't copied or transferred any recorded information.Mung
November 11, 2012
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Return of the Lying Troll aka onlooker onlooker:
Apparently I am doomed to disappointment.
At least you admit you are the cause of your own disappointment. onlooker:
Then you carefully refrain from quoting or answering my questions.
A lie. onlooker:
No, your questions are quite clearly an attempt at evasion. If really wanted people to understand your argument, you would answer their questions directly.
And you know it's a lie, and there's the proof. That makes you a liar, even under the "weak definition" preferred by you and your ilk over at TSZ. onlooker:
If really wanted people to understand your argument, you would answer their questions directly.
A non sequitur. So not only are you a demonstrable liar, you fail at elementary reasoning. onlooker:
You never even attempted to amend his summary as he repeatedly requested...
So? onlooker:
your behavior is indistinguishable from that of an intellectual coward
Your behavior is indistinguishable from that of a troll. A dishonest hypocritical troll, at that. Proud of yourself?Mung
November 11, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Onlooker at 905, Keith’s reformulation of my argument added extraneous issues to the argument which do exist in the original. This fact was explained immediately after he presented his reformulation. He promptly ignored that correction. He, like you, is desperate to revamp the argument because he cannot refute it.
You never even attempted to amend his summary as he repeatedly requested, just as you have never attempted to answer my questions in good faith. Whatever your actual motivations, your behavior is indistinguishable from that of an intellectual coward who knows he can't actually support his argument and so hides behind obfuscation and bluster.onlooker
November 11, 2012
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Upright BiPed, At 909 you quote part of what I wrote at 904:
Onlooker at 904,
As already discussed, your attempt to distract from your repeated failure to answer direct questions about your incoherent “argument” by asking me questions is a transparent evasion tactic. Here’s the meat of my response, from my comment 864:
Then you carefully refrain from quoting or answering my questions. That doesn't exactly demonstrate intellectual integrity.
Firstly, the questions I asked you were intended to get you to engage in the answers to your questions, But you have no interest so.
No, your questions are quite clearly an attempt at evasion. If really wanted people to understand your argument, you would answer their questions directly.
Secondly, the "meat" of your response is (once again) all about redefining the definition of "materially arbitrary" in terms of a mechanism.
Incorrect. Here is the bit you cut:
Note the bolding in the previous quoted passage and in this one. See the difference? You switch from "inexorable law" to "physical law", which probably explains why you’ve avoided directly answering this question I’ve posed repeatedly: Does "law" mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? As near as I can tell, you’re claiming that because there are other conceivable relationships between nucleotide triplets and amino acids that could have existed, the one that does exist is not "reducible to physical law". That, combined with your repeated use of the word "inexorable", suggests that you do not consider stochastic mechanisms to be covered by the word "law". All that’s fine — your argument, your definitions. However, your words don’t change reality. In fact, every process in the transcription and translation cascade can be described without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics. If you are suggesting that the relationship we observe could not have arisen without some violation of chemistry and physics, you’ve got a lot more work to do to support such an assertion. In addition to all the other questions you’ve avoided answering, we’re back to one you ran away from at The Skeptical Zone: How does your argument, assuming you ever make it coherent, support ID?
I'm not trying to redefine anything -- I'm trying to get you to make your definitions coherent. You're using terms like "law", "inexorable law", and "physical law" in your argument. In order to understand your argument, those terms must be clearly defined.
As already stated, the mechanism of the system's origin does not change the material relationship between the representation and the effect. That relationship is materially arbitrary (and indeed must be so) regardless of whatever mechanism established it. This is not only a universal observation regarding information transfer, but is also a logical necessity. You cannot refute it.
I can't refute it because, like your overall argument, it incoherent. Clarifying your meaning by answering my simple questions would go a long way to making your word salad more sensible. I don't get the impression you're actually interested in doing that, though. Surprise me.onlooker
November 11, 2012
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(Sorry, bad blockquote in previous.) Upright BiPed, I returned from traveling for work for a few days with high hopes that you will have finally answered my simple, direct questions. Apparently I am doomed to disappointment.
Onlooker in 903
UB: I have defined them. But you keep asking me to redefine them in terms of the mechanism which might establish the relationship. Onlooker: No, I am asking you to define them clearly and I have asked very direct and straightforward questions about your definition that you have consistently avoided answering. Here they are again: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
Firstly, you say want me to clearly define my use of the term "arbitrary", but time and time again you’ve been asked to articulate any ambiguity in the definition already given. You have failed to do so.
Incorrect. I read everything you wrote while you carefully evaded providing a coherent definition and came up with D3. I have asked you repeatedly if that definition corresponds to yours and, if not, exactly what essential characteristics it lacks. You spew hundreds of words without ever answering those simple questions. It's almost as though you are afraid of making your points clearly. After all, that could lead to them being refuted. So, let's try again. Here is what I understand you are attempting to communicate when you use the word "arbitrary": D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?onlooker
November 11, 2012
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Upright BiPed, I returned from traveling for work for a few days with high hopes that you will have finally answered my simple, direct questions. Apparently I am doomed to disappointment.
Onlooker in 903
UB: I have defined them. But you keep asking me to redefine them in terms of the mechanism which might establish the relationship. Onlooker: No, I am asking you to define them clearly and I have asked very direct and straightforward questions about your definition that you have consistently avoided answering. Here they are again: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
Firstly, you say want me to clearly define my use of the term "arbitrary", but time and time again you’ve been asked to articulate any ambiguity in the definition already given. You have failed to do so.
Incorrect. I read everything you wrote while you carefully evaded providing a coherent definition and came up with D3. I have asked you repeatedly if that definition corresponds to yours and, if not, exactly what essential characteristics it lacks. You spew hundreds of words without ever answering those simple questions. It's almost as though you are afraid of making your points clearly. After all, that could lead to them being refuted. So, let's try again. Here is what I understand you are attempting to communicate when you use the word "arbitrary": D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
onlooker
November 11, 2012
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Abstract In this paper we review and argue for the relevance of the concept of open-ended evolution in biological theory. Defining it as a process in which a set of chemical systems bring about an unlimited variety of equivalent systems that are not subject to any pre-determined upper bound of organizational complexity, we explain why only a special type of self-constructing, autonomous systems can actually implement it. We further argue that this capacity derives from the ‘dynamic decoupling’ (in its minimal or most basic sense: the phenotype–genotype decoupling) by means of which a radically new way of material organization (minimal living organization) is achieved, allowing for the long-term sustenance of systems whose individual-metabolic and collective-historical pathways become thereafter deeply intertwined. Enabling conditions for ‘open-ended evolution’
Mung
November 11, 2012
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keiths:
We can talk about self-replicating molecules in the abstract, just as Upright talks about semiotic systems in the abstract.
Here's the difference. Semiotic systems exist. They OUGHT to be explained. (Yes, there's that horrid word again, showing your shallow metaphysics for all to see.) Self-replicating molecules do not exist except in the abstract. Therefore, they need no explanation unless it's an explanation for the existence of beings of reason. (Showing yet again your shallow metaphysics.) Yet you CHOOSE (Yes, there's that horrid word again, showing even more so your shallow metaphysics) to these things that exist only as a matter of reasoning and attempt to use them to explain something that does exist. Showing, for all to see, your poor science. Using the unknown and simply hypothetical to explain something that is actual. What should we take from this? Perhaps that bad metaphysics leads to bad science?Mung
November 11, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
IOW, it follows from UB’s premises that the existence of the sort of designer we all know he wishes to infer from “the material observations” is excluded at the outset by those very premises.
So?Mung
November 11, 2012
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Alan Fox posts, but has nothing interesting to say about the argument other than it wasn't what he thought it was. Reciprocating Bill posts and claims his original objections were never addressed, even though they clearly were, as anyone reading this thread should well know. So, we're off to a rousing start. 941 posts and waiting.Mung
November 11, 2012
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And keiths proves that he is a worthless coward that shouldn't be responded to:
Joe gets it right for once:
Prediction- Upright Biped’s response (930), will be seen by the TSZ ilk, as an evasion.
Indeed, I am almost certain (from long experience) that Upright would like to avoid my questions by focusing instead on irrelevant details. Fortunately, that’s not necessary. We can talk about self-replicating molecules in the abstract, just as Upright talks about semiotic systems in the abstract.
Nope, either you have a real-world example or you don't. And obvioulsy you don't so you lose. Obvioulsy keiths has no idea what science is nor how it operates. BTW keiths, all YOU ever do is focus on irrelevant tangents. And you still don't understand nested hierarchies...Joe
November 11, 2012
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Great RB is back but still has nothing to say. Sure he posted a lot of words but he has never given any indication that he understands the argument and seems to want to obfuscate rather than engage. And in the end if your position had any evidence, any at all, to support its claims then you would just post them and UB would be refuted. So it is very telling that you chose the tactic that you are using.Joe
November 11, 2012
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I see that Uncommon Descent has restored my original posting privileges. Because Upright Biped has repeatedly mischaracterized the import of our previous discussions at TSZ, and in the spirit of the recent cross conversation between UD and TSZ, let me take this opportunity to post the a reply I recently posted to him at TSZ. I've removed links to avert this post being ensnared in a spam filter; you may consult my original post at TSZ if interested in following those links. Upright challenged Alan to link to someone – anyone – who has identified logical problems or ambiguities in his argument. He claims that there have been no such objections. Drawing upon previous TSZ threads spanning April 15 to July 20 I will here summarize a few of mine. None of the following objections and observations have been successfully rebutted, in my judgment. - First is UB’s muddled use of “entailment.” During the course of his participation at TSZ UB pivoted from one use of “entailment” to another, an equivocation that exemplified what is muddled about his understanding of entailment and implication, and indeed what is muddled about his entire presentation. On April 18, at the outset of this discussion, I anticipated that ambiguity: UB
Demonstrating a system that satisfies the entailments (physical consequences) of recorded information, also confirms the existence of a semiotic state.”
RB:
It simply would not follow from an observation that all known instances of semiotic information transfer (all of which are instances of human symbolic or representational communication) exhibit your “material entailments” that all systems exhibiting these “entailments” are necessarily semiotic, convey semiotic information, or have semiotic origins. Unless, of course, you are simply defining “semiotic” as “exhibits these material entailments,” in which case to assert that “a system that satisfies the entailments (physical consequences) of recorded information, also confirms the existence of a semiotic state” is a tautology that gets you no further than did proposing your definition.
First notice that Biped characterizes his “entailments” as “physical consequences of recorded information.” He doesn’t identify them as “necessary and sufficient conditions for the transfer of recorded information,” as he does following his pivot. There is no reading of “physical consequences of” that yields “necessary and sufficient conditions for” without acknowledging severe ambiguity in the former. When he employs “entailment” in this sense of “physical consequences,” his claim that observing such consequences “successfully confirms a semiotic state” commits the error of implication that was subsequently discussed at length on that thread. Nor was this an isolated mispeaking. I later showed that, in his missives to Larry Moran and to Lizzie, UB repeatedly employed similarly logically flawed reasoning in which his later revised, “post pivot” use of “entailment” is nowhere to be found. Notice also that, in the above quoted passage, I anticipated his later pivot at the outset of our discussion. On April 26 I similarly remarked:
It only follows that “Demonstrating a system that satisfies the entailments (physical consequences) of recorded information, also confirms the existence of a semiotic state” if you define a “semiotic state” as “a system that demonstrates these ‘entailments.’” In which case this “confirmation” is tautological.
This again anticipates Biped’s later pivot to using “entailment” not in the sense of entailments that are “physical consequences”, but in the sense that if a phenomenon has occurred, observation of necessary and sufficient conditions for the phenomenon is “entailed.” This is a more or less useless form of “entailment” that, as deployed by Biped in this discussion, assumes its conclusions, almost exactly as I anticipated in the quoted passages above. I identified that uselessness at the moment of his pivot: Biped:
Bill, if a specific thing only exist under specific conditions, then does it existence entail the existence of those specific conditions?
RB:
Yes, it does. So that would be a valid use of “entailment.” Not a very useful entailment, however, as you must already know that a phenomenon has both necessary and sufficient conditions, and what they are, before reaching your conclusion that those conditions obtained.
I repeated the latter observation perhaps six or seven times (more?), but UB never responded to that objection in any way, and later pointedly quote-mined my response in a way that removed that objection. It remains wholly unrebutted. Rather, Biped seemed to think that his completion of a pivot from a use of “entailment” in a sense that yields reasoning beset by a fatal logical flaw to a sense that is useless because it assumes its conclusions was a decisive moment in the discussion, and rescued him from the observation that he really doesn’t understand how to use entailment in a scientific context. He also seems to think that my observation of one set of intractable problems prior to his pivot and a second set of problems post-pivot represented a “concession” on my part. Neither was the case. - Second is Biped’s unwillingness, and apparently his inability, to state what “a semiotic state” entails that “the transfer of information” does not. That question was posed to him perhaps 20 times. He offered only non-responsive replies (e.g. restating his definitions of “a semiotic state” and “the TRI” without responding to the question). - Third is UB’s related claim that it is an empirical observation, and not simply a definition, that results in the claim that “the transfer of information is by necessity semiotic”: UB:
I make the claim that recorded information is – by necessity – semiotic. I make that claim squarely upon material observation, and I challenge you or anyone else to demonstrate otherwise.
RB:
Help me to understand this. What does “semiotic” entail that “the transfer of recorded information” does not? Absent a response, you cannot claim to discern, even in principle, in what way an instance of “the transfer of recorded information” that is not also a semiotic state would differ from one that is. To justify your claim that this is an “material observation,” you need to specify that difference.
Yet another objection that remains wholly unrebutted. - Fourth is the Silence of the Bipeds on the question of the origins of the entailments/the TRI/semiotic states – which one might have assumed was the point of the entire empty exercise. UB:
Good grief. The argument doesn’t claim the entailments cause information transfer; it says they are the necessary material conditions of information transfer.
Never mind the question of how something can be “the necessary material conditions for” something else without being regarded as the cause of that something else (more muddle). I responded:
So, then, the entailments do not cause the transfer of recorded information/a semiotic state. They are the necessary and sufficient material conditions of (for?) the transfer of recorded information/a semiotic state, yet they are not the cause of the TRI/a semiotic state… also unanswered is, “what are the causes of the four entailments?” The answer cannot be “the transfer of recorded information/a semiotic state,” as your italicized use of “consequence” is not to be construed as a claim that the entailments arise as a consequence of TRI/a semiotic state… Semiotic theory is therefore silent on the causes of the phenomenon it purports to explain – the events observed in the transcription of DNA into proteins. Nothing in the claimed relationship between the entailments and the TRI/a semiotic state speaks to causation. Because silent on the causes of the phenomenon it labors so mightily to frame, it is perforce also silent on competing causal claims such as “the events observed in the transcription of DNA into proteins arose through (because of) natural unguided processes” (replication and selection, for example).
And, of course, later: RB:
Upright Biped, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Also, please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. Lastly, if your theory has nothing to say on causation – if the entire output of your efforts is “it will therefore require a mechanism capable of establishing a semiotic state” yet semiotic theory is silent on mechanism/causation – what good is it?
- And last, for now, I would like to recall the first comment I made on these threads: UB:
1) In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?)
RB:
Seems to me his 1) excludes, by definition, a non-material designer, which would certainly represent and transfer information by non-material means.
IOW, it follows from UB’s premises that the existence of the sort of designer we all know he wishes to infer from “the material observations” is excluded at the outset by those very premises. - Reciprocating BillReciprocating Bill
November 11, 2012
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Joe @936: Yeah, the ligase ribozyme is sometimes thrown out as an example, driven partly by the paper by Paul and Joyce, A self-replicating ligase ribozyme. Unfortunately, despite some clever engineering on their part, it is not an example of a self-replicating molecule. They did some good work, but the primary takeaway from their paper is how far they were from actually having a long-term sustainable self-replicating system. Never mind the fact that they weren't using just a single molecule. So, given the importance of the self-replicating molecule to the materialist creation story, I continue to wait for this entity to rear its head. Gone missing through the mists of time, no doubt, with the unicorn . . .Eric Anderson
November 10, 2012
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Self-replicating molecule-> ligase ribozyme, but that is two RNAs, one for a template and one for a catalyst. One solution could be to have say one RNA that keeps collecting free nucleotides until it breaks. Then there are two that keep collecting nucleotides until they break. Then out of all these pieces a catalyst is born.Joe
November 10, 2012
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The theory of evolution is meaningless without saying HOW living organisms arose because HOW they arose directly impacts HOW they evolve. As in if living organisms were designed then they were designed to evolve/ evolved by design. That you and people like you refuse to grasp that simple fact says quite a bit about your agenda. That aside, no one is shoehorning anything. Transcription and translation "is what it is" and it is a semiotic process- by DEFINITION. But then again you and your ilk seem to have quite the difficulty with the definitions of words. BTW exactly what useful insights has your position ever led to? Please be specific.Joe
November 10, 2012
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Upright Biped ask?
Is this a fault? Why should an argument that specifically describes the material conditions for recorded information be forced to address TOE?
If you are confirming that your argument does indeed address the OOL rather than the ToE, then fine. I do confess to not really taking your argument seriously, among other reasons, because it did not address the ToE. Now you appear to be saying this is indeed the case. I have said before and will say again, if you think you have an argument that will lead to useful insights into the world we live in, you owe it to yourself and others to set your stall out where it will get noticed. Convincing some random commenter on some obscure internet site is not likely to achieve much.
I spent two months at TSZ defending my argument, and in that time you presented nothing. However, as you have now demonstrated, you are completely capable of posting your rebuttal here, where I will address anything you have to say.
Well, I'm not sure those who tried to get you to clarify your argument sufficiently so that they could discuss it would see it like that. My problems with your argument are that it does not have anything to do with the theory of evolution (which you seem to confirm) and that attempting to shoehorn protein synthesis into a set of processes that you call "semiotic" simply fails.Alan Fox
November 10, 2012
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Can anyone point me to an example of a self-replicating molecule?
I think there are some designed ones out there. :) But really. Isn't it remarkable how the supposedly skeptical, who denigrate ID for it's missing designer, are so willing to believe in non-existent things for which there is no evidence to avoid the facts and logic of the OP?Mung
November 10, 2012
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Mung @ 927 (actually this is for keiths): Can anyone point me to an example of a self-replicating molecule? I'm not arguing that such a thing is or isn't irreducibly complex at this point until I get the chance to look at the thing (nor am I trying to put any words in UB's mouth). Just trying to learn whether there is such a thing. I've been asking for years and so far no-one has been able to point me to a self-replicating molecule yet, so I'm very suspicious that this very key aspect of the whole materialist creation story is unfounded. [And to avoid wasting time back and forth, no, DNA is not self-replicating; no, a crystal is not self-replicating. Is there another example of a molecule that is?]Eric Anderson
November 10, 2012
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Prediction- Upright Biped's response (930), will be seen by the TSZ ilk, as an evasion.Joe
November 10, 2012
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Keith wants Mung to ask me a) if a self-replicating molecule can transfer information, and b) what the representation and protocol are in this self-replicating molecule. He also wants to know if they would therefore comprise an irreducible complex system. As for his last question, I have already stated that representations and protocols are irreducible complex. As for his first two questions, he is specifically asking me to identify objects within a system which he does not identify. This puts me in the rather awkward position of identifying objects within whatever system I might imagine, or even worse, identifying objects within whatever system he might imagine. Obviously his questions are pointless. So if he will provide an example of a self-replicating molecule, then I will analyze it and provide an answer.Upright BiPed
November 10, 2012
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keiths:
Why don’t you ask Upright 1) whether self-replicating molecules can transfer “recorded information”;
What self-replicating molecules, please be specific and what recorded information do they contain, again please be specific? The safe bet is that keiths won't answer the questions...Joe
November 10, 2012
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Can anyone tell us what self-replicating molecules keiths is talking about along what information they contain? Also does anyone have a clue as to why RB cannot stay focused on the topic at hand rather then trying to jump to the end?Joe
November 10, 2012
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keiths:
Upright is not foolish enough to claim that self-replicating molecules are irreducibly complex, as far as I know.
I guess that means you've managed to defeat a straw-man. Grats.
Second, it’s silly to claim that self-replicating molecules cannot transfer recorded information...
Then I'm going to bet that Upright BiPed didn't make that argument and you've managed to defeat yet another straw-man. Grats again.Mung
November 9, 2012
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Alan Fox:
Seems I’m currently enjoying moderation-free commenter status at Uncommon Descent!
I hope they don't strip you of your admin status and shun you over at TSZ for not being among the "banned from UD." I trust you'll exhibit enough TSZ-like behavior though to stay in their good graces. Do you really want a serious discussion, or are you going pull another 'onlooker' on us? Let me offer my opinion of why so few of us will come over there and post. It's because none of you (or too few of you) are serious. If you (pl.) were interested in serious debate there would be no reason to be banned here from UD. You can do that here. If you choose. So. The recording of information in a material system. Exhibit A. Computers. Do you dispute that a computer is a material system? Do you dispute that it is possible to record information for storage and retrieval on a modern computer? If the above two items are not in dispute, are you willing to discuss what the requirements are for that to take place? What is it, down on the really nitty gritty level, that makes computers amenable to information storage and retrieval? Or do you want to go back to what did we use before computers?Mung
November 9, 2012
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RB:
UB’s “theory” as set out above remains silent on the cause of the phenomena it purports to explain.
So? I can find no mention of the words 'cause' or 'explain' in the OP. So maybe it's not mentioned on purpose.
If “the conclusion is only that some mechanism is required that can create a semiotic state,” yet semiotic theory is silent on causal mechanisms, neither providing or constraining hypotheses regarding causal mechanism, what good is it?
Why are you mistaking the title of a post for the substance of a theory, when that title isn't even the one used here at UD? And I don't see Upright BiPed making appeals to "semiotic theory" anywhere in this thread. It all seems to be originating from TSZ.
After all, we already know that the cause of a a given phenomenon must be capable of causing that phenomenon.
You claim to know this, but it seems to be often overlooked over there at TSZ. In fact, I often see appeals to Ockham's Razor in place of an adequate cause. That seems to be quite popular over there. So, your post appears to be one huge straw-man. Can you explain why Upright BiPed should defend arguments he hasn't made? Can you deal with the OP, or not?Mung
November 9, 2012
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Frankly, your whole comment seems rather haphazardly thrown together, as if it were a placemat for something else – something of substance perhaps.
made me laugh =pMung
November 9, 2012
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Alan Fox, You have been posting on the Musing of Science blog that my argument was “incoherent”, and that you found it “impossible to parse”, and that I would not “clarify it”. Time and time again, I asked you to support your assertions by stating either a) any ambiguity in the terms, b) demonstrate that the conclusions do not follow from the premises, or c) that the premises are untrue. You refused at each opportunity. Then on November 7th you stated that the moderation policy at UD prevented you from directly engaging, but yet today, you found it possible to post a link to TSZ. Apparently you were mistaken about the moderation policy and perhaps only discovered your mistake when just happen to be standing near an unused UD comment box, and voila. There is therefore no reason that you cannot post your comments here where the argument is. I did however follow your link to TSZ to find the rebuttal you seem to be alluding with your derogatory comments. What I found was something less than a rebuttal. Here is a breakdown of your comment:
My personal view is that there are a couple of basic faults with UB’s argument. It appears to address origin-of-life (OOL) theories rather than the theory of evolution (ToE) and it is a default argument; “OOL fails, therefore Intelligent Design”.
Is this a fault? Why should an argument that specifically describes the material conditions for recorded information be forced to address TOE? Have you joined a group that believes that ToE addresses OoL issues? And as for addressing the failures of current OoL theories, I fail to see the problem you have here as well. Are not incomplete theories (and those that fail) subject to evaluation? Frankly, your whole comment seems rather haphazardly thrown together, as if it were a placemat for something else – something of substance perhaps. Allow me to address your comment about being a “default” theory. The argument I’ve made follows a line of logical necessities which present themselves from the general premise that recorded information transfer must have a material basis in a material universe, and that 'material basis' must be observable. You can defeat this line of logical necessities by demonstrating that the conclusions do not follow from the premises, or that the premises are untrue. You cannot defeat it by suggesting that it is a default theory. Your summary “OoL fails, therefore Intelligent Design” is completely meaningless in an empirical investigation. - - - - - - - - - - You then wrap up your critique at TSZ with a final thought:
It is a shame that UB seemed to lose interest in defending his argument before we got to the meat of the biochemistry, where I have a little knowledge, now outdated, as this is where his argument really falls apart for me. I think the attempt to link semiosis to protein synthesis just fails utterly.
Is that it, Alan? Do you really not recognize that you simply made an assertion and then followed it with absolutely nothing? I spent two months at TSZ defending my argument, and in that time you presented nothing. However, as you have now demonstrated, you are completely capable of posting your rebuttal here, where I will address anything you have to say. I look forward to you finally attempting to support your assertions. It will be a welcome change.Upright BiPed
November 9, 2012
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