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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Alan Fox:
My personal view is that there are a couple of basic faults with UB’s argument. It appears to address origin-of-life (OOL) theories rather than than the theory of evolution (ToE)
So? This means you can't appeal to the Darwinian mechanism to explain the elements that are required for Darwinian evolution to occur. Why do you think that's a fault with his argument? By fault, can we assume you mean a factual or logical deficiency? If so, what is the fault? Is it factual, or logical? Do you dispute that there is some minimal basic system required for Darwinism to take place? Do you dispute that such a system must be informational in nature?Mung
November 9, 2012
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Alan Fox:
My personal view is that there are a couple of basic faults with UB’s argument. It appears to address origin-of-life (OOL) theories rather than than the theory of evolution (ToE) and it is a default argument; “OOL fails, therefore Intelligent Design”.
keiths:
He is still afraid of making an outright claim of design, but the implication is clear.
Why don't you two spend some time together coming up with a coherent rebuttal?Mung
November 9, 2012
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linkAlan Fox
November 9, 2012
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Mung,
They ought to be stripped of the title of “skeptical.”
Elizabeth Liddle once said that she had never heard an ID argument of any merit, and that there was no case for ID that could not also be explained as the product of Darwinian evolution. I then told her of one, and after a time - when I was certain that she ‘got it’ - I eventually asked her if she would retract her claims. She refused. Later still, she eventually admitted that Darwinian evolution could not, indeed, be responsible for the organization which was the ‘first replicator’. So once again, I eventually asked her to retract her claims. Again, she refused, even though she had to concede she could not write a simulation which would generate information from scratch. She then started the Skeptical Zone with a thread based dircetly on our conversation, and has since launched three or four more threads centered (in one way or another) around that same conversation. So I joined one of those conversations, and stayed for a little over two months. The thrust of the counter-argument there was to two-fold; a) to piddle around over the word “entailment”, and b) to revamp the argument (lol) and equivocate on the logical operators used in the revamp (i.e. A->B, B->A). The result of that engagement was their eventual complete concession on both counts. And so (having won those concessions) I left. But within that thread, I asked three questions which Dr Liddle offered answers for:
UB: 1. In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) 2. If 1 is true, then is it even conceivably possible to transfer that information without a second arrangement of matter (a protocol) to establish the relationship between representation and what it represents? (how could such a relationship be established in any other way?) 3. If 1 and 2 are true, then is it even conceivably possible to functionally transfer information without the irreducibly complex system of these two arrangements of matter (representations and protocols) in operation?
And what was Dr Liddle’s response?
Dr Liddle: 1. No 2. No 3. I don’t see why such an arrangement should be “irreducibly complex”.
So for Dr Liddle, just because she is given an ID argument based on sound logic and valid premises (in which she concedes she cannot refute) it is not a sign that the argument has any merit. And just because there are necessary conditions that Darwinian evolution cannot be responsible for, does not mean that ID can offer an argument that Darwinian evolution cannot also be responsible for. And just because there are two arrangements of matter in which it would be inconceivable to transfer information (without them working in tandem), doesn’t mean that both are needed in order to transfer information. Dr Liddle’s denial of material evidence is what powers The Skeptical Zone. Her hypocrisy-laden brand management: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." is the high intellectual wall she needs to hide behind as she tosses her disciplinary responsibilities on the ground. Very politely she, the scientist, dismisses the material evidence. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ah well. Whether they would be stripped the title “Skeptical” or not, they’ve done nothing to distinguish themselves as capable of using it in any rationale manner.
Or maybe they just revel in the irony of it all.
Perhaps.Upright BiPed
November 7, 2012
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They ought to be stripped of the title of "skeptical." Or maybe they just revel in the irony of it all.Mung
November 7, 2012
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Mung, the truly astonishing thing is that for the illustrious members of the peanut gallery at TSZ, this silly front put up by Onlooker actually passes for a valid engagement of the argument. Wallowing in "arbitrary" is their sufficient response to material evidence.Upright BiPed
November 7, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Your refusal to modify your argument according to our arbitrary requirements and failure to reformulate it to make it acceptable to us just goes to prove that you are not really interested in defending it. Now, admit that you lack the intellectual integrity to do so and drop any claims to have an argument supporting ID. Any other response is dishonest. So there.Mung
November 7, 2012
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Well, onlooker, looks like you're out of excuses. long agoMung
November 6, 2012
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Opps. correction...#910 Onlooker at 905, Keith’s reformulation of my argument added extraneous issues to the argument which do [NOT] exist in the original. This fact was explained immediately after he presented his reformulation. He promptly ignored that correction. He, like you, is desperate to revamp the argument because he cannot refute it.Upright BiPed
November 6, 2012
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Onlooker, In comment #899 I posted a dozen or so examples from the 2,370,000 instances of the word "arbitrary" being used in the scholarly papers searchable within the Google Scholar database. When you come back to pepper me with more insults and ignore my requests that you finally articulate the ambiguity you insist is in my argument, will you please spend a few words explaining how all these people are able to communicate to each other using that word? I'd like you to be as specific as possible. I've read a few of those usages of the word, and will be happy to test whatever reason you give. Otherwise, please just articulate the ambiguity in my argument which you claim is there. Then you'll be able to provide that big refutation you've been promising.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2012
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On October 8th:
UB: Your entire involvement here has been an attempt to massage over the unambiguous definitions given in the argument, in the hopes that you can make them malleable for a counter-argument. This has already been discussed here and here among other places. Unfortunately for you, your strategy has been transparent for the entire duration of your stay. You are now left with nothing but to return here and use the repetition of your attempts as an opportunity to sling more insults. It’s all you have left. As I have already pointed out, it’s a terrible way to have to protect your worldview.
Earlier today, Nov 5th:
Onlooker: ... your attempt to distract from your repeated failure to answer ... your incoherent “argument” ... a transparent evasion tactic ... None of your squirming ... you have utterly failed ... admit that you lack the intellectual integrity ... Any other response is dishonest.
Onlooker, Can you substantiate your claims? Can you articulate the ambiguity you insist is there? If not, then why not? :)Upright BiPed
November 5, 2012
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onlooker, your continued presence here doesn't mean you've addressed even a single aspect of the argument in the OP. Until you do so it stands as unrefuted. Heck, it still stands as unaddressed. onlooker:
D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism.
Define "connected by a direct physical mechanism." Are the bases in a strand of DNA connected by a direct physical mechanism? Are the amino acids in a protein connected by a direct physical mechanism? Does it follow that their ordering is non-arbitray?
If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
It lacks any connection to reality. It's arbitrary. TrollMung
November 5, 2012
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Onlooker at 905, Keith’s reformulation of my argument added extraneous issues to the argument which do exist in the original. This fact was explained immediately after he presented his reformulation. He promptly ignored that correction. He, like you, is desperate to revamp the argument because he cannot refute it.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2012
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Onlooker at 904,
As already discussed, your attempt to distract from your repeated failure to answer direct questions about your incoherent “argument” by asking me questions is a transparent evasion tactic. Here’s the meat of my response, from my comment 864:
Firstly, the questions I asked you were intended to get you to engage in the answers to your questions, But you have no interest so. Secondly, the “meat” of your response is (once again) all about redefining the definition of “materially arbitrary” in terms of a mechanism. As already stated, the mechanism of the system’s origin does not change the material relationship between the representation and the effect. That relationship is materially arbitrary (and indeed must be so) regardless of whatever mechanism established it. This is not only a universal observation regarding information transfer, but is also a logical necessity. You cannot refute it.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2012
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Onlooker in 903
UB: I have defined them. But you keep asking me to redefine them in terms of the mechanism which might establish the relationship. Onlooker: No, I am asking you to define them clearly and I have asked very direct and straightforward questions about your definition that you have consistently avoided answering. Here they are again: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?
Firstly, you say want me to clearly define my use of the term “arbitrary”, but time and time again you've been asked to articulate any ambiguity in the definition already given. You have failed to do so. Secondly, I have said that you keep trying to get me to restate the definition in terms of the mechanism of its origin. You reply “no” you are not doing so, then in the space of a single sentence, you turn around and ask me again about the mechanism of its origin. It’s dishonest lunacy. Bottom line: You simply cannot articulate an ambiguity in the definition given. Your claim is false.Upright BiPed
November 5, 2012
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Upright Biped's argument supports ID because it meets the design criteria, part of which is the total failure of necessity and chance to account for transcription and translation. And I am 100% positive that is what has the evos frothing at the mouth- the total inability of their position to explain what we observe.Joe
November 5, 2012
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That onlooker references keiths, of all people, says it is totally clueless...Joe
November 5, 2012
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After over 900 comments it seems appropriate to repost this from keiths at The Skeptical Zone:
Every time I summarized your argument, I a) asked you whether my summary was accurate, and b) invited you to amend my summary if it was not. You refused each time, even when others (who also found your prose impenetrable) repeatedly asked you to do so. Why is that? If your argument is as strong as you claim, why do you work so hard to prevent your audience from understanding it? When I have a good idea, I actually want other people to understand it. When they ask questions, I answer them. If I see that they misunderstand me, I clarify things. Why wouldn’t I? Why would I try to hide my good idea? You, on the other hand, seem ashamed of your argument and afraid of what might happen if you stated it clearly and explicitly. Instead of clarifying, you obfuscate. Instead of answering questions straightforwardly, you evade them. You complain that others are misrepresenting your position, but when they ask you for correction, you refuse to give it. Then you declare victory, saying that no one has defeated your argument! For you, the entire exercise seems to be more about saving face than it is about communicating your ideas. In fact, you appear to be deliberately avoiding communication precisely in order to save face. Why should anyone take your argument seriously if you are so ashamed of it? Why are you afraid to communicate it in a way that your audience will actually understand?
Either answer the outstanding questions I've raised here and those you ran away from at TSZ or simply admit that you lack the intellectual integrity to do so and drop any claims to have an argument supporting ID. Any other response is dishonest.onlooker
November 5, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Your 873 appears to be an attempt to take this discussion into an infinite loop. I responded to all of that in 864 …
You did? Let’s take a look, shall we? Where is your answer to this question:
UB: Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid?
I do not see your answer anywhere. Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid, or not?
As already discussed, your attempt to distract from your repeated failure to answer direct questions about your incoherent "argument" by asking me questions is a transparent evasion tactic. Here's the meat of my response, from my comment 864:
Now if all of that is true (and it is), then it is a perfectly valid empirical statement to say that the “relationship between the representation and its material effect is context specific; not reducible to physical law (regardless of any mechanism proposed as the origin of the system)”.
Note the bolding in the previous quoted passage and in this one. See the difference? You switch from “inexorable law” to “physical law”, which probably explains why you’ve avoided directly answering this question I’ve posed repeatedly: Does “law” mean a fully deterministic mechanism or would a stochastic mechanism be covered by that term? As near as I can tell, you’re claiming that because there are other conceivable relationships between nucleotide triplets and amino acids that could have existed, the one that does exist is not “reducible to physical law”. That, combined with your repeated use of the word “inexorable”, suggests that you do not consider stochastic mechanisms to be covered by the word “law”. All that’s fine — your argument, your definitions. However, your words don’t change reality. In fact, every process in the transcription and translation cascade can be described without invoking any violations of chemistry or physics. If you are suggesting that the relationship we observe could not have arisen without some violation of chemistry and physics, you’ve got a lot more work to do to support such an assertion. In addition to all the other questions you’ve avoided answering, we’re back to one you ran away from at The Skeptical Zone: How does your argument, assuming you ever make it coherent, support ID?
None of your squirming gets around the clear fact that you have utterly failed to address any of these issues. Your "argument" doesn't exist.onlooker
November 5, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
I am asking you to define your terms.
And I have defined them. But you keep asking me to redefine them in terms of the mechanism which might establish the relationship.
No, I am asking you to define them clearly and I have asked very direct and straightforward questions about your definition that you have consistently avoided answering. Here they are again: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. Is that how you use the word in your argument? If not, what essential characteristics does that definition lack?onlooker
November 5, 2012
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As Upright BiPed has aptly pointed out, to get from pond scum to us requires recorded information. Information recorded in a material system. Darwinists have no theory The best they can do is pretend to not comprehend the facts, while at the same time offering no alternative. And then they appear to be befuddled by our failure to be convinced by their lack of response, blaming us, rather than themselves.Mung
November 2, 2012
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Just as, after well past a month, no 6,000 word essay on the warrant for the blind watchmaker thesis, from pond salts and scum to us. KFkairosfocus
November 1, 2012
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You're implying that onlooker knows how to use Google or some other search engine and actually has some desire to learn what arbitrary means. I think onlooker knows full well what the word means, so feels no need to explore the matter further. onlooker's actions here at UD are pure posturing. 900 posts and still no rebuttal.Mung
November 1, 2012
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A quick search on Google Scholar for the incomprehensible term “arbitrary”. I received 2,370,000 responses. Here are some examples:
…additive constant in U is not physically arbitrary since both… …evolution equation under arbitrary macrodeformation is derived… …contain in vacuum four physically arbitrary functions moving… ...then extends the proof to arbitrary states of this system… …VMS are materially arbitrary with respect to their referents… …this method of comparing intensities is physically arbitrary, since… …phase p(t) of an arbitrary ultrashort pulse with no physical… …subjecting them to four arbitrary conditions, proceeds to find... …displacement implies an arbitrary shape determined by the… …scattering by boundaries of arbitrary shape, size, and orientation… …mechanical response along arbitrary deformation paths… …generators with arbitrary expansion can be constructed… …pore bodies in real porous media must remain arbitrary… …concurrence for an arbitrary pure state of two qubits… …protons incident on a target of arbitrary ionization level… …particles of arbitrary spin in an electromagnetic field…
Quite obviously, the world of science is in complete disarray. What could all of these people be talking about, using this entirely unusable English word “arbitrary”. Right?Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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onlooker believes that to pretend to not understand the argument is to have refuted it.Mung
November 1, 2012
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UB from #826 on October 8th
Onlooker, You are now left with nothing but to return here and use the repetition of your attempts as an opportunity to sling more insults. It’s all you have left. As I have already pointed out, it’s a terrible way to have to protect your worldview.
Onlooker from earlier today, November 1st:
...evasion is your only option...someone terrified of risking being proven wrong...refusing to engage in good faith and hoping that your ridiculous responses...you’d prefer to simply run away...looking like a cowardly fool...You are demonstrating intellectual dishonesty coupled with a complete lack of integrity. There is no honor in your actions...
Are you ready to lay out your long-since-promised refutation of the argument yet?Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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Yes, Upright BiPed, you are obviously trying to create an endless loop.Mung
November 1, 2012
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Based on the definitions of arbitrary offered in 889, everyone can see that onlooker is acting in an arbitrary manner.Joe
November 1, 2012
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methinks onlooker is on a crusade to get banned from UD. That's the only explanation I can come up with for the observed behavior. There's certainly no indication of any true interest in debate or moving things forward.Mung
November 1, 2012
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Onlooker at 886,
Your 873 appears to be an attempt to take this discussion into an infinite loop. I responded to all of that in 864 …
You did? Let’s take a look, shall we? Where is your answer to this question:
UB: Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid?
I do not see your answer anywhere. Does the nucleic triplet materially interact with the amino acid, or not? So where is your answer to this question:
UB: Does it require something else (other than the nucleic triplet and the amino acid) to make the material connection between the two?
I do not see your answer to this question. Does the relationship require something more than the nucleic triplet and amino acid, or not? So where is your answer to this question:
UB: If so, then is this material connection a matter of an inexorable law (existing between the triplet and the amino acid) or is it established by this something else (i.e. the aaRS) which operates within the system?
I do not see where you addressed this question. So is the relationship between the nucleic triplet and the amino acid established by an inexorable law between them, or is it established by the aaRS operating within the system? So where is your answer to this question:
UB: If it is true that the material connection is established locally by the aaRS, and not globally by an inexorable law (between the triplet and the amino acid) then isn’t the relationship between the two “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law?”
Frankly, I don’t see that you answered this question at all. Is the relationship established locally by the aaRS or globally by an inexorable law? Is the relationship “context specific” within the system, and “not a matter of an inexorable law” between the triplet and the amino acid, or not? So where is your answer to this question:
UB: If it is then true that the relationship between the two is “context specific” and “not a matter of inexorable law”, is it also true that no physical laws are broken in establishing this relationship?
And here once again, I see no answer at all. So where are all these answers that you claim to have given? Where is your attempt in trying to understand? Why did you explicitly ignore any and all examples used to illustrate the terms? Why do you continually ask questions, and then refuse to engage in the answers? Here is what I think; I think hell will freeze over before you’ll engage in these questions. I am certain of it.Upright BiPed
November 1, 2012
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