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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
@Joe:
...what Nature 459, 239-242 2009 Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions Matthew W. Powner, Béatrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland, demonstrates is there is an indirect chemical pathway, ie an alternative to what Meyer and others thought, to get the sugar and bases together.
NO. It does not say that. They showed that a molecule can form which is (to simplify) half-ribose and half-base. Then other simple stuff is added to that. There's no sugar and base to "get together", so what Meyer wrote on pages 301 and 303 is false, and what Joe wrote is false. And on page 302, Meyer says that nucleotides have never been found on meteorites. Also false, lots of organic chemicals including nucleotides on Murchison meteorite. None of you have any comebacks except personal attacks and ad hominems.Diogenes
October 3, 2012
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Here is what Joe wrote:
Joe: I have read page 303 and what you say isn’t there. Please provide the quote or admit that you made it up. [#528]
So he demands I provide a quote. If I don't provide a quote, then he says I'm lying. Now compare that to what happens when I ask Joe for a quote.
Diogenes: I don’t have a copy on hand. Since you do, please copy the text from page 303. [#536]
Joe demands that I provide a quote. If I don't provide the quote when he asks, Joe calls me a liar. But if Joe doesn't provide the quote when I ask, he's too precious and valuable. This is how he responds.
Joe: And no, I am not your secretary so I will not be wasting my time copying an entire page just so that you can see for yourself that you are FoS. [#544]
Joe: Then shut up about it because obvioulsy you don’t have a clue. [#537]
Now here's what Joe wrote.
Joe: I have read page 303 and what you say isn’t there. [#528]
He was lying.
Meyer: This obviously poses a couple of difficulties. First, it creates a dilemma for scenarios that envision proteins and nucleic acids arising out of a prebiotic soup rich in amino acids. Either the prebiotic environment contained amino acids, which would have prevented sugars (and thus DNA and RNA) from forming, or the prebiotic soup contained no amino acids, making protein synthesis impossible… The RNA-world hypothesis faces an even more acute, but related, obstacle—a kind of catch-22. The presence of the nitrogen-rich chemicals necessary for the production of nucleotide bases prevents the production of ribose sugars. Yet both ribose and the nucleotide bases are needed to build RNA. [p. 303]
The stuff in boldface is disproven by Powner et al. 2009. That's one falsehood among many. Two pages previously:
Meyer: Before the first RNA molecule could have come together, smaller constituent molecules needed to arise on the primitive earth. These include a sugar known as ribose, phosphate molecules, and the four RNA nucleotide bases (adenine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil). [p. 301]
The stuff in boldface is disproven by Powner et al. 2009. Joe had the book in hand. Joe read what it said. He knew what it said. Here's what Joe wrote.
Joe: I have read page 303 and what you say isn’t there. [#528]
You twits have no response except infantile personal attacks, ad hominems, and more lies. None of you know any science, which is bad enough, but on top of that you're pathological liars. Joe lied about what was in the book. Joe was gambling I wouldn't get the book from the libary. He lost. I can forgive people for not knowing anything about science. Hell, not everybody needs to know about science. But you people are infantile, you know nothing about science, and your only responses are personal attacks and ad hominems. When I asked Joe for the quote, he informed that he was too good to provide quotes. Joe can demand quotes from me. But I cannot demand quotes from Joe. Why? Joe would not provide the quote because he read that page, and he knew it would prove he was lying. Diogenes
October 3, 2012
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diogenes predicted response to StephenB's post:
LoL! Of COURSE Meyer had to say something to save face after saying it was already proven it couldn't be done! Intervention was necessary to shorten the time as we didn't have X millions of years to wait. Geesh. There was nothing but chemistry at play and Meyer was wrong for saying it would never be accomplished. Heck 2009 the same year his book was published for Pete's sake. He had to say something to save face. Come on you know it. Infantile to the last.
Joe
October 3, 2012
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Page 304:
In sum, synthesizing the building blocks of the RNA molecule under realistic prebiotic conditions has proven formidably difficult.
Just doesn't seem to capture what diogenes said. That said, what Nature 459, 239-242 2009 Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions Matthew W. Powner, Béatrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland, demonstrates is there is an indirect chemical pathway, ie an alternative to what Meyer and others thought, to get the sugar and bases together. And it is a step towards demonstrating ribonucleotides can form under realistic prebiotic conditions. There are still difficulties in getting the purines and pyrimidine ribonucleotides together, and together long enough to form chains and even longer to find a sequence that actually does something and gets to doing it.Joe
October 3, 2012
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Diogenes:
But that was disproven in 2009, right before Meyer’s book hit bookshelves, by the work of Powner et al. 2009. They showed that you can start with simple molecules and, instead of linking ribose to a base, start with a half-ribose linked to a half-base. Add some simple chemicals, and you get a full nucleotide. A little UV radiation finishes off the process, destroys the “bad” nucleotides but leaves the “good” nucleotides.
Stephen Meyer: ...."This study does partially address one, though only one, of the many outstanding difficulties associated with the RNA world scenario, the most popular current theory of the undirected chemical evolution of life. Starting with several simple chemical compounds, Powner and colleagues successfully synthesized a pyrimidine ribonucleotide, one of the building blocks of the RNA molecule. Nevertheless, this work does nothing to address the much more acute problem of explaining how the nucleotide bases in DNA or RNA acquired their specific information-rich arrangements, which is the central topic of my book. In effect, the Powner study helps explain the origin of the “letters” in the genetic text, but not their specific arrangement into functional “words” or “sentences.” Moreover, Powner and colleagues only partially addressed the problem of generating the constituent building blocks of RNA under plausible pre-biotic conditions. The problem, ironically, is their own skillful intervention. To ensure a biologically-relevant outcome, they had to intervene—repeatedly and intelligently—in their experiment: first, by selecting only the right-handed isomers of sugar that life requires; second, by purifying their reaction products at each step to prevent interfering cross-reactions; and third, by following a very precise procedure in which they carefully selected the reagents and choreographed the order in which they were introduced into the reaction series. Thus, not only does this study not address the problem of getting nucleotide bases to arrange themselves into functionally-specified sequences, but the extent to which it does succeed in producing biologically-relevant chemical constituents of RNA actually illustrates the indispensable role of intelligence in generating such chemistry........."StephenB
October 3, 2012
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Diogenes:
But I was wrong to say that Meyer predicted that someday we would prove that nucleotides could not be made by natural processes.
Diogenes:
In Stephen Meyer’s risible book, he predicted it would be proven that all nucleotides could not be formed spontaneously. Meyer’s ID “predictions” were experimentally disproven by the time his book hit the bookshelves– what a maroon.
Diogenes:
Notice that not one UDite even attempted a rebuttal, or addressed the science in anyway. Personal attacks they can do.
lol. This is an ID web site. You may want to get your facts straight before posting things about what an ID author has written.Mung
October 3, 2012
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diogenes:
Stephen Meyer wants to say that simple chemistry, as would exist on the primitive earth, can’t make nucleotides.
Except he doesn't say that. he says there would be obstacles and difficulties- and there would be. For example the environment for making two of the nucleotides has to be different thatn the environment to make the other two. Also it took the skill of chemists to pull it all off.
In fact, Meyer said we had already proven that nucleotides could not be made by natural processes.
No, he did not say such a thing and we still do not know if natural processes can do it, anyway.Joe
October 3, 2012
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@PeterJ - Notice that not one UDite even attempted a rebuttal, or addressed the science in anyway. Personal attacks they can do. Science? Nah. No one here will explain to you what I actually wrote, because it would reveal Joe's dishonesty, and how ignorant are the authorities they trust on science. So I'll explain it to you in layman's terms. It started with my comment #516,517 above. I listed several inaccuracies in predictions made by ID advocates (and I could have listed more); one was about statements by Stephen Meyer in Signature in the Cell on nucleotides and the origin of life. Joe asked me for the page number.
Joe: Please tell me the page number of Meyer’s alleged prediction pertaining to the nucleotides. [#520]
I reply. Simple question, simple answer.
Diogenes: Page 303. [#525]
Simple, right? That's what happens when you ask an scientist a question: no drama; you get a direct answer, or else "I don't know." Now compare this to what happens when I ask a creationist a simple question.
Diogenes: I don’t have a copy on hand. Since you do, please copy the text from page 303. [#536]
This is how creationists answer a simple question.
Joe: And no, I am not your secretary so I will not be wasting my time copying an entire page just so that you can see for yourself that you are FoS. [#544]
And
Joe: Then shut up about it because obvioulsy you don’t have a clue. [#537]
Now since I have the page number, and Joe has the book, we could work together and discuss it, right? But that's not possible with infantile creationists.
Joe: I have read page 303 and what you say isn’t there. Please provide the quote or admit that you made it up. [#528]
It took me a couple of weeks to get to the university library, check out the book, and scan it. Here's what's on pages 301-4. Stephen Meyer wants to say that simple chemistry, as would exist on the primitive earth, can't make nucleotides. This is because most scientists believe the first self-replicating systems were RNA molecules that could copy themselves (the "RNA World") before there was DNA or proteins. And RNA is a string of nucleotides. So how could the nucleotides be made? A nucleotide looks like a ribose (that's a sugar) linked to a base molecule (the nucleobase); with a phosphate. Phosphates are common. So Meyer says no chemistry on the early earth could make nucleotides, because, he says, all nucleotides must be formed from a ribose linked to a base. Now we know that simple chemistry can make sugars (like ribose), but that chemistry won't work around nitrogenous chemicals. And you need nitrogen to make the base. So Meyer says it's been proven that no natural processes could make nucleotides. But that was disproven in 2009, right before Meyer's book hit bookshelves, by the work of Powner et al. 2009. They showed that you can start with simple molecules and, instead of linking ribose to a base, start with a half-ribose linked to a half-base. Add some simple chemicals, and you get a full nucleotide. A little UV radiation finishes off the process, destroys the "bad" nucleotides but leaves the "good" nucleotides. So Meyer's statements on this (which I quoted above) and many other topics were factually false. But I was wrong to say that Meyer predicted that someday we would prove that nucleotides could not be made by natural processes. In fact, Meyer said we had already proven that nucleotides could not be made by natural processes. This was false. Nature 459, 239-242 2009. Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions. Matthew W. Powner, Béatrice Gerland & John D. Sutherland.Diogenes
October 3, 2012
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Thanks UB, Mung and Joe. I understand. He's what is called where I come from 'at it' :o) An interesting link on ENV. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6102/1628.abstract "Digital information is accumulating at an astounding rate, straining our ability to store and archive it. DNA is among the most dense and stable information media known. The development of new technologies in both DNA synthesis and sequencing make DNA an increasingly feasible digital storage medium. We developed a strategy to encode arbitrary digital information in DNA, wrote a 5.27-megabit book using DNA microchips, and read the book by using next-generation DNA sequencing." I wonder what Onlooker would make of the use of the word 'Arbitrary' in this context? ;o)PeterJ
October 3, 2012
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But can someone please point out, in laymans terms, why he is mistaken?
Yes, I can. One person didn't like what another person was saying. So he assigned something to that person that the person didn't say - then attacked it. It's a common tactic. It's used as a vehicle to demonize the person and argument you don't want to hear. This thread has been rich with it.Upright BiPed
October 3, 2012
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So he took out his knife and cut everybody up and left.
It felt like a spoon, and look, no cuts! But I am sure in his mind we are all in pieces...Joe
October 3, 2012
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UB: Yes, I can. He performed a drive-by. I was of the opinion that Diogene's wasn't perhaps understanding Meyers. But can someone please point out, in laymans terms, why he is mistaken? Thanks.PeterJ
October 3, 2012
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Can someone please give an explanation for Diogene’s claims at #750.
Yes, I can. He performed a drive-by. He really doesn't like the argument in the OP and he's mad at me for making it. He also hates Joe, Mung, and Steven Meyer. So he took out his knife and cut everybody up and left. He'll probably be back later.Upright BiPed
October 3, 2012
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Diogenes, YOU have serious integrity issues:
Meyer: Before the first RNA molecule could have come together, smaller constituent molecules needed to arise on the primitive earth. These include a sugar known as ribose, phosphate molecules, and the four RNA nucleotide bases (adenine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil). [p. 301]
Nope, that doesn't support your claim.
Meyer: This obviously poses a couple of difficulties. First, it creates a dilemma for scenarios that envision proteins and nucleic acids arising out of a prebiotic soup rich in amino acids. Either the prebiotic environment contained amino acids, which would have prevented sugars (and thus DNA and RNA) from forming, or the prebiotic soup contained no amino acids, making protein synthesis impossible…
Nope, that doesn't support your claim.
The RNA-world hypothesis faces an even more acute, but related, obstacle—a kind of catch-22. The presence of the nitrogen-rich chemicals necessary for the production of nucleotide bases prevents the production of ribose sugars. Yet both ribose and the nucleotide bases are needed to build RNA.
Not ONE prediction that all nucleotides could not form. Just Meyer pointing out obstacles and difficulties. That said having all nucleotides form in a lab under different conditions- not all form under the same conditions- is not the same as having all nucleotides form in nature. PS- Thanks MungJoe
October 3, 2012
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Can someone please give an explanation for Diogene's claims at #750. Thanks.PeterJ
October 2, 2012
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b.s. + bluster = diogenesMung
October 2, 2012
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Upright BiPed, You failed to represent "apple" mathematically.Mung
October 2, 2012
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Diogenes,
Answer the question. Stop pretending like you don’t know what it means. As Onlooker has made very clear, you have slipped in the phrase “context specific” without defining what “context specific” means. We want a clear definition of that
So you would like me to explain “context specific” in terms of the relationship between a representation and its effect within a system? Okay. A representation must operate in a “specific context” (i.e. in a specific system) in order to result in its effect. Otherwise, there will be no relationship between the representation and its effect. The existence of the relationship (between representation and effect) is therefore specific to a system (i.e. "context specific"). For instance, the English word “apple” is a representation that operates in a system of English-speaking humans beings, but it means absolutely nothing whatsoever to earthworms or turtles or bacteria. This seems to be a rather simple concept to understand, leaving virtually nothing to question regarding its meaning.Upright BiPed
October 2, 2012
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2 + 2 = 4. Therefore, two sheep plus two sheep causes four sheep. haha. the captcha question was [] + 2 = four what are the odds of that!?Mung
October 2, 2012
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Diogenes:
In Stephen Meyer’s risible book, he predicted it would be proven that all nucleotides could not be formed spontaneously...Later I cited, specifically, page 303.
Meyer makes no predictions on page 303. That makes Joe right and you wrong. Care to try again? Diogenes:
Please copy in page 303. What are you hiding?
Meyer makes no predictions on page 303. That makes Joe right and you wrong. No need to hide anything. Diogenes:
Let’s check out Signature in the Cell, pages 301 to 303.
Well, there's no prediction on page 303, even though you asserted quite strongly that there was. So now what, it's on page 301 0r 302? Which? Both? You didn't quote anything that came even remotely close to Meyer making a prediction that it would be proven that all nucleotides could not be formed spontaneously.Mung
October 2, 2012
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2 + 2 = 4. Therefore, two plus two causes four.Mung
October 2, 2012
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Diogenes:
UB says “representation” is something that “evokes” an effect within a system. So it’s a cause.
failMung
October 2, 2012
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@Joe - Remember what I wrote about Stephen Meyer's falsified prediction in Signature in the Cell? Remember Joe, how you lied about what was in the book? Me: In Stephen Meyer’s risible book, he predicted it would be proven that all nucleotides could not be formed spontaneously. Meyer’s ID “predictions” were experimentally disproven by the time his book hit the bookshelves... Later I cited, specifically, page 303. Joe: I have read page 303 and what you say isn’t there. Please provide the quote or admit that you made it up. I didn't have the book then. So you thought you could get away with lying to me, like a typical creationist. Me: I don’t have a copy on hand. Joe: Then shut up about it because obvioulsy you don’t have a clue But I just scanned the book, Joe. Are you going to stand behind your statements, Joe? You gonna double down on that, little doggie? You had the book then, Joe. You lied about its contents, which is why you wouldn't quote it. Me: Please copy in page 303. What are you hiding? Joe: And no, I am not your secretary so I will not be wasting my time copying an entire page just so that you can see for yourself that you are FoS. No, Joe couldn't scan one darn page from that book, couldn't do OCR because he was lying like a typical creationist. Now you see what it's like arguing with creationists. I scanned the book, Joe, so I know you were lying about what was on page 303. You gonna double down on that, little doggie? Let's check out Signature in the Cell, pages 301 to 303. Meyer: Before the first RNA molecule could have come together, smaller constituent molecules needed to arise on the primitive earth. These include a sugar known as ribose, phosphate molecules, and the four RNA nucleotide bases (adenine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil). [p. 301] Meyer: This obviously poses a couple of difficulties. First, it creates a dilemma for scenarios that envision proteins and nucleic acids arising out of a prebiotic soup rich in amino acids. Either the prebiotic environment contained amino acids, which would have prevented sugars (and thus DNA and RNA) from forming, or the prebiotic soup contained no amino acids, making protein synthesis impossible... The RNA-world hypothesis faces an even more acute, but related, obstacle—a kind of catch-22. The presence of the nitrogen-rich chemicals necessary for the production of nucleotide bases prevents the production of ribose sugars. Yet both ribose and the nucleotide bases are needed to build RNA. [p. 303] Again, experimentally disproven. Now you see what it's like arguing with creationists. They're not just liars, but childish and infantile liars. Also their predictions are experimentally disproven, but on top of that, they're freaking INFANTILE.Diogenes
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748 Comments and the Argument in the OP is disproven. Now I'm going to make a guess at what UB means by "context specific". Probably he'll accuse me of putting words in his mouth blah blah and say that's not his meaning. But somebody around here has to make stuff mathematical. UB isn't and Joe and Mung the stupid parrot can't. So here's my guess. UB says "representation" is something that "evokes" an effect within a system. So it's a cause. I don't know what's the difference between "causing" an effect and "evoking" an effect and I'm tired of UB's waffle words. We know UB means "cause" so I'm calling it a cause. Let's call the set of causes Ci, where i = 1,... up to some number of possible states. Now if C means a codon triplet, then i would go from 1 to 64. Now you have a system, meaning: cause yields effect via an adapter or set of adapters. Ci * {A} --> Ej Here the Adapters "instantiate" the "protocol" (yargh, more bafflegab) so they're tRNA's. The Effect is an amino acid Ej, where j = 1,... 20. In the real world there are 64 codons and 20 amino acids, and the system is degenerate. Contra what UB writes, the genetic system does not transfer information. The genetic system is degenerate, it copies information partially into a different form but, LOSING information along the way. It's a lossy system. Now we all know about 64 codons and 20 amino acids, but for simplicity I'm going to limit us to single nucleotides a,g,c,u so i = 1 to 4, and just two amino acids, j = 1..2. So C is a 4-vector and E is a 2-vector and the Adaptor is a 2x4 matrix. Let's say that in our simple genetic code, the purines yield Asp and the pyrimidines yield Lys. So if Ci is [ a] [ g] [ c] [ u] And Ej is [D K] Then the Adaptor would be a 2x4 matrix [1 1 0 0] [0 0 1 1] Where Ej = A * Ci. Now here is where "context" and "arbitrary" comes in. The Adapter is a set of tRNA's, and the their anticodons could (theoretically) be linked to a variety of amino acids. Different SETS of tRNA's would yield different matrices. The matrix I wrote down is just one among many imaginable. That's where "arbitary" comes in: "Arbitrary" means A is one matrix among many possible -- THEORETICALLY but maybe not experimentally in practice!. However, all the matrices like A must obey certain mathematical rules. Within those rules, many are still possible, at least theoretically (probably some are forbidden by the laws of physics.) If you have an deterministic, error-free protocol, then each COLUMN of A must have a 1 and a 0. If you have a protocol that's not deterministic, or full of errors, then you could maybe have a column that has fractional entries. [0.9 1 0 0.2] [0.1 0 1 0.8] Get it? That matrix makes translation errors. By "context" we must mean a set of tRNA's that define the columns in a particular matrix. IF the laws of physics permit the anticodons in each conceivable tRNA to bind to any amino acid (Big If!), then all matrices are possible-- so long as the entries in each column add up to 1. By "not fixed by inexorable laws", we are ASSUMING (big assumption) that there exists a "null state", or "natural state", or "primordial state" (whatever you want to call it) where the laws of physics would cause each anticodon in each conceivable tRNA to bind EQUALLY to each amino acid. This "null state" would be defined by a "null adaptor", let's call it A0: A0 = [0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5] [0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5] So that's how I'd define "not fixed by inexorable laws". What's so darn confusing about UB's posts is that, when he talks about "context" and "inexorable laws" etc., UB is implicitly assuming a "null state" in which the laws of physcis demand that each anticodon bind equally to each amino acid. This "null state" is implicit in UB's ideas of "context" and "deterministic", etc. but UB does not spell out the "null state", which must first 1. be defined 2. be proven experimentally to exist and in accordance with the laws of physics. But UB didn't define it; and he just ASSUMED that the laws of physics could make a matrix like A0 above. Anyway, it's not possible. I cited papers above which show that anticodons bind preferentially to certain amino acids, so experiment shows that the null state A0 that I defined above is NOT produced by the laws of physics. UB assumed it but did not prove it exists. See: RNA riboswitches bind amino acids: Yarus et al. (Yarus M, Widmann JJ, Knight R, 2009, RNA–Amino Acid Binding: A Stereochemical Era for the Genetic Code, J Mol Evol 69:406–429. See Also: Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. D.B.F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 Apr 12. The fact that UB implicitly invokes a null state or "null context" when he talks about "context specific" is confusing as heck to Onlooker and everyone who knows math or molecular biology. Again: 748 Comments and the Argument is disproven.Diogenes
October 2, 2012
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Yeah defining words using dictionaries is for chumps. And no, my post in 691 does not say the fix is in. If someone just anted up and demonstrated that necessity and chance are up to the task then UB's argument falls.Joe
October 2, 2012
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I want representation! - Diogenes lol.Mung
October 2, 2012
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UB, Answer the question. Stop pretending like you don't know what it means. As Onlooker has made very clear, you have slipped in the phrase "context specific" without defining what "context specific" means. We want a clear definition of that. This is the whole problem with ID pseudomath. ID pseudomath and bafflegab is filled with terms like "specification" (Dembski) and, in this thread, "representation", "information", "form of a thing", "transfer", "protocol", "context" etc. etc. which are deliberately vaguely defined. The trick is obvious right from the OP. UB only defines these words by 1. Defining words in terms of other words that aren't themselves defined. 1a. e.g. information is "form of a thing". What the hell is "form of a thing"? How do you measure how much "form" is produced by a process? My footprint is in the form of my foot. Don't natural processes produces forms of things, thus, information, in vast quantities? 1.b. "Arbitrary" defined as: "The relationship between the representation and its effect was unambiguously defined as context specific..." Well what's context specific? 2. UB's other way of defining terms is by listing examples, right there in the OP, so the fix is in from the beginning. UB only lists examples which include artificial constructs, like human language, plus DNA/genetic code/ biological things. Nothing that might be produced by natural processes. To exclude these, UB leaves words vaguely defined so that he and Joe can arbitrarily exclude everything that results from natural processes. Argument from authority. If UB precisely defined his terms, a counter-example of representation, form, protocol, information, effect, etc. could always be found that consists of observed natural processes. But Joe in comment #691 tips us off that the fix is in. They're going to exclude all natural counter-examples ("chance and necessity"-- more cultist bafflegab!), so all "semiotic" terminology must be re-defined on the fly by the hierophants of ID. That way, everything boils down to argument from authority. So if UB defines a word in terms of other things that are not defined ("form of a thing"), or defines thing by listing examples that exclude natural processes, then they hold on to rhetorical wiggle room to exclude counter-examples. Onlooker: Thank you for putting forward your own definition. This is the first I remember you using the idea of “context specific within a system”. It sounds like my other proposed definition might be closer to what you are trying to express: D3. Arbitrary: In one configuration of many possible configurations. Is that what you mean by context specific connections? If not, could you please give an example of a context specific connection? Unlike Onlooker, I don't want an "example" of a context specific connection. Defining things by examples is the whole problem here. I want it defined in mathematical language, not by examples. I want representation as a vector, protocol as a matrix, different contexts as different matrices, effect as a vector, etc. The OP here is aping a mathematical proof. Alas, neither UB nor Joe nor the stupid parrot Mung sitting on Joe's shoulder seem to understand how mathematical proofs need terms to be precisely defined, NOT defined by examples!Diogenes
October 2, 2012
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She's got you pegged Upright BiPed: incoherently erudite.Mung
October 2, 2012
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Onlooker, A precise definition of “arbitrary” was given on this thread on August 23rd. The relationship between the representation and its effect was unambiguously defined as context specific and not established by inexorable law. Any attempt to define a thing in an unambiguous manner, necessarily depends on the ability to establish a unique identifying characteristic (or characteristics) which separates that thing from other things. The unique identifying characteristic of the relationship between a representation and its effect is that the relationship is "not established by inexorable law" and is "context specific". There is no ambiguity in that definition (i.e. either the relationship is reducible to law in any context, or it’s not). As with your previous attempts to add imprecision to the argument, I do not accept your definition. Your rhetorical victory is at hand.Upright BiPed
October 2, 2012
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onlooker, If this really shouldn't be like pulling teeth, then why are YOU making it so? And please define every one of your words so that we can understand what it is you are trying to say to Upright Biped. Perhaps by doing so you will see, as all objective onlookers do, that you are being just a tad absurd in your complaints.Joe
October 2, 2012
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