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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Upright BiPed,
Given the fact that you have repeatedly failed to answer direct questions about your argument here at UD and that you have a proven history of running away in another forum when confronted with such questions,
Do you mean your question about what I meant in my use of the term “arbitrary”? Does this qualify as an answer:
UB: The first object is a representation; an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system, where the arrangement is materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes. The word “arbitrary” is used in the sense that there is no material or physical connection between the representational arrangement and the effect it evokes (i.e. the word “apple” written on a piece of paper evokes the recall of a particular fruit in an observer, but that recall has nothing whatsoever to do with wood pulp, ink dye, or solvent).
Repeating the words that I've already asked you to clarify does not count as an answer, no. Here are the two potential definitions of "arbitrary" that I've extracted from what you've written in this thread: D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. or D3. Arbitrary: In one configuration of many possible configurations. Are either of these accurate? If not, please provide a clear and precise definition.
As far as leaving TSZ, I spent two months there in open debate with Reciprocating Bill, who lodged two very specific objections. In one instance he objected to my use of the term "entailment". He eventually conceded that if a thing existed (which has unique material conditions), then its very existence would ‘entail’ that those conditions existed as well.
That is not an accurate statement of what happened. You used the term incorrectly in one case and Bill called you on it. You then managed to use it correctly and he recognized that. There was no "concession" and to suggest so is either delusional or dishonest. Toronto has provided an excellent analogy for what happened:
Upright BiPed: "RB took the intellectual lead at TSZ and denied any need to engage the evidence because there was a supposed logical flaw in the argument. It took two months for him to concede otherwise."
It is incredible to me that UB still thinks onlookers believe this! Let me demonstrate. 1) UB: 2 + 3 = 6. 2) RB: No, that is not a valid use of the “+” operator. 3) UB: Does 5 + 5 = 10? 4) RB: Yes, that is a valid use of the “+” operator. 5) UB: AHAAA! You concede that 1) is valid! Do you see where you went wrong UB?
As far as your interaction with keiths goes, you've got that wrong as well.
Keith: Answer me! UB: You added extraneous items to your reformulation. Keith: Answer me! UB: You added extraneous items to your reformulation. (repeat ad nauseum)
No thanks.
What keiths asked of you was:
If you think this is an accurate summary, then tell us. If you don’t, then please make corrections while maintaining the explicit and concise format of the summary.
You refused to do that, leading to the inescapable conclusion that you are not really interested in making your argument understandable. So, given that you have a history that includes squirming in response to Lizzie's questions here until it became apparent that you would not operationalize your definitions, running away from the discussion at The Skeptical Zone when the participants there were finally able to understand enough of your nearly impenetrable prose to ask direct questions highlighting the flaws in your argument, and using evasive rhetorical tactics to avoid answering my questions here, any objective observer would understand that I'd like a firm commitment from you to engage in good faith before asking anyone else to go to the effort of attempting to decipher your points.
That’s why I ask “On what grounds do you refuse to answer”. So… Let us try one more time:
…can the effect which will not even happen until tomorrow also be the arrangement of matter in your pocket today, even though that effect tomorrow will contain nothing whatsoever that is in your pocket today? Or are these two things necessarily not the same thing?
Why do you continue to refuse to answer a question so obvious that even a small child could answer it with ease?
Here again you demonstrate your evasiveness and refusal to engage in good faith. The actual current status of this discussion is that we have three less than precise definitions and two premises, one of which is nearly incoherent, and we haven't progressed past your third paragraph. D1. Representation: An arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system. Examples include: Written text Spoken words Pheromones Animal gestures Codes Sensory input Intracellular messengers Nucleotide sequences D2. Information: a) the form of a thing b) a measured aspect c) a measured quality d) a measured preference D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. or D3. Arbitrary: In one configuration of many possible configurations. P1'''. It is not logically possible to transfer information without using an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system. P2. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. The outstanding questions and issues are: - How exactly can information be measured? - Does information, by your definition, have standard units? - Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions? - What is your precise definition of "arbitrary"? Does it correspond to either of the proposed definitions I offered? - Please restate your premise "If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers." to clarify exactly what you are trying to communicate. - What does "necessarily arbitrary" mean in that premise? If you are genuinely interested in making your argument understandable, you will directly answer these questions. If you are still more afraid of having your position challenged than you are interested in the truth, you will continue to attempt to evade answering directly.onlooker
September 21, 2012
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Ever hear of telekinesis, ie thought energy?
Joe, And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.Mung
September 20, 2012
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And BTW information is STILL neither matter nor energy- ie non-material. Yet we seem to be able to do quite a bit with it.Joe
September 20, 2012
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Toronto- your strawman arguments prove that you are clueless:
If your designer was “immaterial”, he had no “mass” and therefore, no “energy”.
NON_material, and energy is non-material. But that is moot as the designer would use the matter and energy in this material universe. Ever hear of telekinesis, ie thought energy?Joe
September 20, 2012
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And more desperation: “A non-material designer can manipulate matter using energy- just as I said. “ toronto:
Onlookers would like to know why you don’t have an answer to *how*?
Onlookers would need to tell me how that is even relevant- we don't have to know how designers did it BEFORE we can determine they did. Obvioulsy evos have no clue how science operates. We don't know how the Coarl castle was built, does that mean naturedidit- heck it is all coral and nature makes coral.Joe
September 20, 2012
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#305
The truth of the matter is rather obvious. You won’t answer this simple question because for you to openly admit that nothing exist between these two items except for a relationship, is to give away your ideological farm. The entire remainder of my argument necessarily follows from this simple observation, so consequently, you must not allow it.
Upright BiPed
September 20, 2012
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Upright BiPed;
Do you mean your question about what I meant in my use of the term “arbitrary”?
Obviously not. Because that would mean onlooker is leveling false accusations. onlooker:
I’ve provided two possible definitions of “arbitrary” as used in your argument above. Do either of these correspond to your intended meaning? If not, please provide a clear and precise definition.
oops. And then you (UBP) even went further and tried to clarify using an example. Yet anther accepted practice. Which onlooker then proceeded to ignore while loudly complaining that you are avoiding the question.Mung
September 20, 2012
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onlooker, Asking question in order to encourage understanding is an accepted practice. Why do you think you're the only one who is permitted to engage in the practice and that anyone else who does so is being evasive?Mung
September 20, 2012
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The DNA codons representing each amino acid are also listed.
haha, good one joe. Now expect them all to send an email asking the course developer to define 'representation' and accusing him/her of bad faith.
In this table, the twenty amino acids found in proteins are listed, along with the single-letter code used to represent these amino acids in protein data bases.
Then I expect them to quibble over whether the SLC is a representation.
The DNA codons representing each amino acid are also listed.
But that's obviously a different sort of representation than the SLC. But what amino acid TAA represent?Mung
September 20, 2012
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Onlooker,
Given the fact that you have repeatedly failed to answer direct questions about your argument here at UD and that you have a proven history of running away in another forum when confronted with such questions,
Do you mean your question about what I meant in my use of the term “arbitrary”? Does this qualify as an answer:
UB: The first object is a representation; an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system, where the arrangement is materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes. The word “arbitrary” is used in the sense that there is no material or physical connection between the representational arrangement and the effect it evokes (i.e. the word “apple” written on a piece of paper evokes the recall of a particular fruit in an observer, but that recall has nothing whatsoever to do with wood pulp, ink dye, or solvent).
As far as leaving TSZ, I spent two months there in open debate with Reciprocating Bill, who lodged two very specific objections. In one instance he objected to my use of the term “entailment”. He eventually conceded that if a thing existed (which has unique material conditions), then its very existence would ‘entail’ that those conditions existed as well.
BIPED on June 10: Bill, if a specific thing only exist under specific conditions, then does its existence entail the existence of those specific conditions? Reciprocating Bill on June 11: Yes, it does. So that would be a valid use of “entailment” … I take your point.
And in the second instance, he objected to the logic of the argument. He accomplished this by placing inappropriate logical operators in his own re-formulation of the argument, then objecting to his reformulation. He presented this as a "fatal flaw", where he immediately absolved himself from any responsibility to address the actual content of the argument. Eventually he was forced to concede that if the sufficient and necessary conditions of a thing are present, then that thing is present.
Reciprocating Bill: April 18th My remark above underscores a fatal logical non-sequitur in your reasoning and doesn’t turn on “counter examples.” Reciprocating Bill: May 8th I assert (not suggest) that you do not understand entailment, and due to your failure to grasp entailment you have constructed an argument beset with a fatal logical flaw … As for evidence for my position: recall that my position is that your argument is fatally logically flawed. Recoprocating Bill: June 10th Of course if the necessary and sufficient conditions of a phenomenon are present, then phenomenon is present – as I stated above (B is the necessary and sufficient conditions for A. Therefore B -> A.)
After Bill conceded, I left. I suppose I could have stayed and argued with Toronto, who in order to maintain his brilliant line of reasoning, proposed that by simply handing someone a book, he had “transferred information”.
Toronto: July 21 And again you attempt to define terms so they fit into your theory. If I lend you a book, I have successfully “transferred information” to you. The fact that you don’t read it is not relevant.
Or I could have stayed and had my objections ignored by Keith, who (along with you) continues promoting this farce to this very day. How interesting would that have been?
Keith: Answer me! UB: You added extraneous items to your reformulation. Keith: Answer me! UB: You added extraneous items to your reformulation. (repeat ad nauseum)
No thanks. I was there to debate Bill. We debated. He lost. - - - - - - - - Now as for my question to you: “On what grounds do you refuse to answer”… It does not go unnoticed that the answer to your question for me was already on this thread before you even got here; it remains on this thread even now, and has been copied and pasted several times. Yet your answer to my question remains completely absent. It makes your repeated accusations of me doging questions appear as the profound hypocracy that it is, does it not? That’s why I ask “On what grounds do you refuse to answer”. So... Let us try one more time:
…can the effect which will not even happen until tomorrow also be the arrangement of matter in your pocket today, even though that effect tomorrow will contain nothing whatsoever that is in your pocket today? Or are these two things necessarily not the same thing?
Why do you continue to refuse to answer a question so obvious that even a small child could answer it with ease?Upright BiPed
September 20, 2012
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We also find that the codons encode the amino acid: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/encode 1 a: to convert (as a body of information) from one system of communication into another; especially: to convert (a message) into code b: to convey symbolically 2 : to specify the genetic code forJoe
September 20, 2012
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And Miller misrepresents what I say- no surprise there: The codon is a REPRESENTATION of the amino acid. There isn’t any physio-chemical connection with the codon and the amino acid it represents- meaning there isn’t any physio-chemical connection that determines which codon represents which amino acid- ie it is arbitrary, yet it is maintained throughout living organisms.
what the hell are mRNA, tRNA and aaRS, do you think? They form a physico-chemical chain!
Nothing in that chain DETERMINES which codon is for which amino acid. And if teh codon is not a representation of the amino acid it codes for then what the heck do you call it- seeing that common usuage would say it is a representation? (it sure as heck isn't the amino acid yet the amino acid shows up when the codon is in the right position in the ribosome) Here ya go Allan: http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/courses/27619/codon.html
The DNA codons representing each amino acid are also listed.
Evolve how? How can we test if it evolved via blind and undirected chemical processes? Can you provide a testable hypothsis for such a thing?
Evolve by independent amendment of binding sites, in tRNA, aaRS, ribosome etc.
The cowardly equivocation continues...Joe
September 20, 2012
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Toronto continues its desperation with its strawman:
A “non-material” designer cannot even “touch” matter since he has no matter to “touch” with.
A non-material designer can manipulate matter using energy- just as I said.Joe
September 20, 2012
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onlooker, The matter at hand is that you have been exposed as a fraud. And just because you can continue to spew your fraudulent claims that doesn't make them any less fraudulent. Why is it that the only people who have difficulty understanding Upright Biped's argument the same people who have an anti-ID agenda?Joe
September 20, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
It is not at all obvious you have any grounds to be questioning the good faith of others in regards to this conversation.
Given the fact that you have repeatedly failed to answer direct questions about your argument here at UD and that you have a proven history of running away in another forum when confronted with such questions, it is perfectly reasonable to ask you to commit to working in good faith to clarify your position before asking others to go to the effort of rephrasing your prose.
You can demonstrate your good faith now by simply answering the question you avoided earlier:
This is exactly the lack of good faith on your part that I have pointed out before. If you're interested in being understood, you will directly answer questions and provide precise definitions for your terms. If you are afraid of being clear because you don't want to risk being proven wrong, you will use transparently evasive tactics like answering questions with questions, clearly hoping to lead your interlocutors down a rhetorical rathole leading as far away as possible from discussion of your argument. It's easy to see where your predilections lie.
On what grounds do you refuse to answer?
Asked and answered at least twice. Your pretending otherwise is disingenuous. Let's get back to the matter at hand. I've provided two possible definitions of "arbitrary" as used in your argument above. Do either of these correspond to your intended meaning? If not, please provide a clear and precise definition. D3. Arbitrary: Not connected by any direct physical mechanism. or D3. Arbitrary: In one configuration of many possible configurations.onlooker
September 20, 2012
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Oops the last two quotes in 575 belong to Allan MillerJoe
September 20, 2012
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Alan sez:
One strong conviction I currently hold is that UB has not presented an “argument for intelligent design”.
So what? You don't seem to understand much of anything. Ya see Alan, necessity and chance cannot account for transcription and translation- no one seems to know how to even test such a thing. So we take that and add the fact that it meets the design criteria and we reach a design inference.
A triplet that finds itself in the translational frame suddenly comes to ‘symbolise‘ an amino acid?
The codon is a REPRESENTATION of the amino acid. There isn't any physio-chemical connection with the codon and the amino acid it represents- meaning there isn't any physio-chemical connection that determines which codon represents which amino acid- ie it is arbitrary, yet it is maintained throughout living organisms. And now for some equivocation:
Because all that really matters is whether the linkage between codons and amino acids can evolve.
Evolve how? How can we test if it evolved via blind and undirected chemical processes? Can you provide a testable hypothsis for such a thing?Joe
September 20, 2012
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Alan Fox chimes in with more cluelessness:
Until then, it is hard to disagree with Keith’s assessment that all you have produced so far is a classical example of an argument from personal incredulity:
As I asked before: If ID is an argument from personal incredulity, what does that make YOUR position, Alan- seeing it doesn't have any evidentiary support? I say it makes it an "argument" from your arse. Do you agree? BTW if keiiths sez something about ID it is all but guaranteed to be a misrepresentationJoe
September 20, 2012
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Toronto is both daffy and goofy: Toronto:
How does “information” get transferred if one side has no matter available?
Which side doesn't have matter available? A non-material designer has all the matter in this material universe at its disposal- especially if it designed this material universe. And petrushka is so clueless it thinks that just because Lenski didn't know what mutations would occur and Intelligent Selection requires that knowedge so it fails.Joe
September 20, 2012
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the whole lot of you are daffier than Goofy
Or are they are goofier than Daffy!Mung
September 19, 2012
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Diogenes of yesterday, seems to have made an impression on Shapiro > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/further-thoughts-on-the-e_b_1893984.htmlwateron1
September 19, 2012
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The desperation is reaching a fevered pitch:
Your designer is “immaterial”, and is NOT bound by physics.
Being non-material does not = NOT bound by physics in THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE.
And that means…., he does NOT use “an instantiation of matter”, to transfer information.
1- It does NOT mean that just because YOU say so 2- YOU still don't get it- RECORD transferable information IN THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE Keep humping those strawman arguments toronto. You alone provide ample reason why IDists should not post on TSZ. Lizzie won't be too happy with that... but don't worry the whole lot of you are daffier than GoofyJoe
September 19, 2012
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The desperation is hilarious: “By reconfiguring the matter and energy in this material universe, duh. “
Then the designer “bypasses” “the laws of physics.”
Which laws and in what way are they bypassed? When humans build something they reconfigure matter and energy in this material universe. Do we also "bypass" "the laws of physics"? Talk about "just say anything".Joe
September 19, 2012
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Start Codon Stop CodonMung
September 19, 2012
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1 more try to express the idea of arbitrary [although, this may have already been tried, and it's possible that the requests are being made by people who are intentionally being trolls? but I would never suspect that of anyone] the "token" (ie: string of letters) 'apple' is "arbitrary" to the fruit we call apple. If a person speaks only french, and never heard a word of english, this string of letters would be meaningless to that person. However, for that person, the string of letters 'pomme', would convey the same idea. Neither string of letters is necessary to convey the concept of the fruit apple, so they are "arbitrary" with respect to that ideaes58
September 19, 2012
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By reconfiguring the matter and energy in this material universe, duh.Joe
September 19, 2012
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And toronto keeps shoveling the_______: That doesn’t follow. A non-material designer can/ would still use the matter and energy in this material universe to transfer non-material information in this material universe. “
He could only do that if UB is wrong.
That doesn't follow.
e.g. [non-matter(non-material designer)]—-> [matter(biological object)] *How* could a “non-material designer” do this?
By reconfiguring matter and energy, duh.Joe
September 19, 2012
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and petrushka with the cowardice de jour:
Perhaps it’s time to start a fresh thread in which UPB is invited to provide a rigorous proof that a semiotic system cannot evolve from a simple replicator.
Perhaps it is time for YOU to demonstrate that blind and undirected chemical processes are up to the task. Or admit that you cannot and continue to provide proof that TSZ is a waste of time and bandwidth.Joe
September 19, 2012
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Toronto "explains the strawman:
We have a “non-material designer”, a designer who is NOT instantiated in matter, but nevertheless, contains “information” that needs to be transferred TO matter. In order to “transfer information”, he CANNOT use matter since he is NOT composed of matter.
That doesn't follow. A non-material designer can/ would still use the matter and energy in this material universe to transfer non-material information in this material universe. 1. In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) Nothing your strawman sez demonstrates the non-material designer RECORDED transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information. Keep humping away though- it is entertaining...Joe
September 19, 2012
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toronto- Just repeating the strawman doesn't make it valid. Ya see UB has already granted that information is neither matter nor energy. toronto:
A “non-material designer” would be evidence that matter is NOT required for UB’s “transfer of recorded information”.
Please demonstrate that a non-material designer, can record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information, IN THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE. STILL waiting...Joe
September 19, 2012
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