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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
Mung, I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems to me that Upright Biped can speak for himself.Daniel King
September 13, 2012
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Daniel, The basic objection being put forth is that the argument, as stated, includes terms that onlooker doesn't want to understand. Upright BiPed indicates many others have read and understood, and in fact we have plenty of evidence of that right here in this thread. Onlooker's failure understand is indicative of the fact that she does indeed understand the argument, and just doesn't like where it leads. Which makes your intrusion nothing more than a Red Herring. So frankly your disappointment can't be laid upon Upright BiPed, it's your own fault. This is particularly true in the face of Upright BiPed's own earlier indications that he wasn't going to go off on these wild goose chases. I'm sure not going to blame him if he chooses not to contradict himself now just to satisfy your misguided curiosity.Mung
September 13, 2012
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onlooker:
For me it is, or could be, more of an academic discussion. You’ve presented an argument. I don’t understand some of your terms and claims. I would like to, so I ask questions.
But won't answer any questions yourself. Some discussion.
I am genuinely interested in understanding your argument.
That sure rings hollow. Let me suggest that you begin to act in accordance with your words.
Probably not, but I have no way of knowing what it is you are saying or whether or not I agree unless you make your position more clear. Anyone with confidence in their position would be happy to do so.
Anyone? Then why aren't you willing to clarify your own position? Perhaps if you were willing to discuss your own understanding of the terms involved there could be some progress. But you won't. Which makes you a fraud.
Your paragraphs 3 and 4 above are nothing but word salad until you define some of your terms and rephrase some of your claims. Not even your supporters here have been able to do that for you, so clearly they don’t understand what you’re on about either.
Most of us understand the terms just fine and see no reason to change them. It has nothing to do with some perceived inability on our part to understand. So what's your problem?
I remain interested in reading a good faith response to these questions and in continuing this discussion with a goal of mutual understanding.
You sure don't act like it.
People interested in being understood do not use evasive rhetorical tactics like answering questions with questions.
Actually, they do. That is one of my favored ways to teach and it has a long and distinguished history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maieutics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method I need to do a cut and paste from those articles. Loads of good material. But here's just a taste:
Maieutics is a pedagogical method based on the idea that the truth is latent in the mind of every human being due to innate reason but has to be "given birth" by answering intelligently proposed questions (or problems).
Test: In maieutics, who is doing the asking and who is doing the answering? Is the "giving birth" taking place in the mind of the student or of the teacher? So now what's your next excuse?Mung
September 13, 2012
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Upright Biped, Thank you for your kind reply @410. You said there, in response to my request for examples of "vettings" of your argument by "specialists" :
My comment above (which you referred to) is simply to say that my argument has been read and understood by many. In this instance, it doesn’t even matter if others agree with it, but only that they understood it. (which they did). So to avoid the evidence and hide behind “OMG it’s just too difficult to understand” is pure BS. And it’s in endless supply.
I'm sorry to tell you that I'm disappointed by your response. I thought that "vetting" meant endorsement of the argument and that "specialist" meant a person with special expertise in a field of science. I don't want to distract you, but if you have the time and the interest, I think it might have more impact on the general public if you could indicate what kind of specialists you were citing and what they said. I, for one, would much appreciate clarification by you. As always, DanielDaniel King
September 13, 2012
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By the way Onlooker, you keep saying that I have not responded to Keith's revamp of my argument. I have already posted a link (249 comments ago) to where I responded immediately after he posted it. The fact is that Keith has never directly responded to my post, yet, you keep right on saying that I have not responded. So, in #431 I asked you to post the link to Keith's specific response to my rejoinder. Are you planning on posting the link, or will this be the last we hear of how I haven't responded to Keith?Upright BiPed
September 13, 2012
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Onlooker at 434, You asked what I meant by the phrase “materially arbitrary.” I provided an example of "materially arbitrary" exactly as I have used the term. This is an entirely legitimate manner in which to communicate ideas. Graphs, visualizations, thought experiments, pictures, charts, etc, etc, are all ubiquitous in the explanation of concepts, and are foundational in the intellectual communication of human beings. You respond thus:
People interested in being understood do not use evasive rhetorical tactics like answering questions with questions.
The crux of the situation then becomes immediately apparent: Is your claim of “evasion” valid? This is a question which can be answered by the evidence. You began by asking about a specific thing. If I then provide an example as a means to communicate that specific thing, but it turns out that the example I provided has nothing whatsoever to do with it, then that example is invalid. It may even be presumed to be an evasion of the topic. On the other hand, if that example clearly illustrates the specific thing you asked about, then that example is not only ‘not an evasion’, but is instead an entirely valid attempt to communicate the specific thing which you asked about. You may now support your claim that my example is “evasive” by stating exactly why the example I provided has nothing whatsoever to do with the specific thing you asked about. Or, you can repeat the claim without justification, in which case you run the risk of being labeled evasive yourself. Or you can change the topic away from your claim, which will then demonstrate that your claim was either unwarranted or (itself) evasive. Or you can answer the question posed by the example and we can move on to address how that demonstrates “materially arbitrary” (i.e. the specific thing you asked about). It’s your choice.Upright BiPed
September 13, 2012
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People interested in being understood do not use evasive rhetorical tactics like answering questions with questions.
And people interested in understanding don't act like belligerent little children who can't even read a dictionary. Yet here you are claiming that you are interested in understanding and acting like a belligerent little child who cannot read a dictionary. And as I said seeing that you do not understand the definition of information communicating with you would be impossible as communication invloves the transfer of information.Joe
September 13, 2012
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toronto:
Here is your problem in a nut-shell.
petrushka: “Other than an omniscient god, what designer has the index to the Library of Babel? The one that stores all the emergent properties of all possible molecules? “
petrushka's strawman is my problem? Toronto- seeing that your position cannot answer anything it is very cowardly of you to expect ID to have all the answers before it can be considered scientific. The FACT that we don't have all the answers proves that the design inference is far from being a dead-end. BTW guys, if God did do it then science has to deal with that as science only cares about reality. Newton saw science as a way of understanding God's Creation. And when it comes to science I will take what Newton said over what evos say.Joe
September 13, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Okay. You say you do not understand my use of the phrase “materially arbitrary”. I used a legitimate example of “materially arbitrary” in order to convey my use of the phrase. So is the effect - which will not even exist until tomorrow - also the arrangement of matter in your pocket today, or are the necessarily not the same thing?
People interested in being understood do not use evasive rhetorical tactics like answering questions with questions. Here again are the open issues preventing me from understanding your paragraph 3: - How exactly can information be measured? - Does information, by your definition, have standard units? - Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions? - What is your precise definition of "arbitrary"? - Please restate your premise "If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers." to clarify exactly what you are trying to communicate. - What does "necessarily arbitrary" mean in that premise? Please demonstrate your interest in actually communicating by directly addressing these straightforwardly presented points.onlooker
September 13, 2012
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- How exactly can information be measured?
By counting the number of bits
- Does information, by your definition, have standard units?
It isn't his definition. He uses the standard and accepted definition. And bits are still the standard units
- Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions?
Absolutely, but you don't appear to know any of the standard defintions. So it is going to be impossible to communicate any ideas with you.
- What is your precise definition of “arbitrary”?
The same as all the dictionaries. But you coukld try plugging in "not determined by law/ necessity"
- Please restate your premise “If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers.” to clarify exactly what you are trying to communicate.
Why is it that only evos on an agenda cannot understand that?
- What does “necessarily arbitrary” mean in that premise?
Why the difficulty with the English language? Do you really think that you are fooling objective onlookers?Joe
September 13, 2012
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Onlooker,
I remain interested in reading a good faith response to these questions and in continuing this discussion with a goal of mutual understanding.
Okay. You say you do not understand my use of the phrase “materially arbitrary”. I used a legitimate example of “materially arbitrary” in order to convey my use of the phrase. So is the effect - which will not even exist until tomorrow - also the arrangement of matter in your pocket today, or are the necessarily not the same thing?Upright BiPed
September 13, 2012
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Onlooker,
Toronto recently provided a nice summary of what you are trying to do here.
Toronto says that the act of handing someone a book “transfers information”. Forgive me for not following what Toronto says.
keiths rephrased your argument in an attempt to understand it and repeatedly asked you to either confirm that he had it right or to correct any misconceptions he may have had. You continuously refused to do so.
I responded directly to Keith immediately after he provided his revamp. He has yet to even mention that response, much less respond to it. You think otherwise? Post the link.
[Elizabeth] accepted your definitions for the sake of argument and then asked how, even with this generous interpretation, your argument supports ID.
She did far more than just accept definitions:
UB: 1) In this material universe, is it even conceivably possible to record transferable information without utilizing an arrangement of matter in order to represent that information? (by what other means could it be done?) EL: No UB: 2) If 1 is true, then is it even conceivably possible to transfer that information without a second arrangement of matter (a protocol) to establish the relationship between representation and what it represents? (how could such a relationship be established in any other way?) EL: No UB: If 1 and 2 are true, then is it even conceivably possible to functionally transfer information without the irreducibly complex system of these two arrangements of matter (representations and protocols) in operation? EL: I don’t see why such an arrangement should be “irreducibly complex”.
lolUpright BiPed
September 13, 2012
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PPS: On the detection end, a good example is the diode feeding a cap to detect envelope on half wave rectification. This can even be effected with dissimilar materials contact so we have cases of a long fence with an earphone to GND detecting AM.kairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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PS: Wiki has a reasonable 101 on AM, here. See the way the above is carried out technically. Notice how in plate mod [a very simple case], in effect the Audio is used to vary the amplitude of the power supply, which is physically equivalent to the multiplication of wave forms, per the analysis. Observe how side-bands emerge through sum and difference frequency effects.kairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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kairosfocus,
it seems O/L thinks he can intimidate people into revealing the identity of people who have helped, the better to target them for nasty personal attacks in the fever swamp sites and threatening their jobs.
That's quite an unwarranted leap you made there, dear. I don't care who can provide clarity around Upright BiPed's argument and I don't care what pseudonym they may choose to post under. I just want to understand what he's trying to convey. Perhaps you can help. Here are the current open issues preventing me from getting past his paragraph 3: - How exactly can information be measured? - Does information, by your definition, have standard units? - Does your definition correspond to any standard definitions? - What is your precise definition of "arbitrary"? - Please restate your premise "If there is an arrangement of matter that constitutes information, that arrangement is necessarily arbitrary to the thing to which the information refers." to clarify exactly what you are trying to communicate. - What does "necessarily arbitrary" mean in that premise? Thanks!onlooker
September 13, 2012
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Genuine onlookers, it seems O/L thinks he can intimidate people into revealing the identity of people who have helped, the better to target them for nasty personal attacks in the fever swamp sites and threatening their jobs. Sorry, we know all about that already. The evident fact is that UB has said stuff that is not particularly hard to understand, and which is in fact a commonplace of comms systems, as I have shown by inserting commentary above, last time at 283. Let's pull it down: __________ >> 1. A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc). [--> I would add, digital symbols and analogue modulation of wave forms through AM, FM, Phase Mod and pulse mod] 2. It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter. [--> Comms systems are about the imposition of modulations to represent information; which also happens to be true in the world of life. To go from transmitter to receiver the codes, mod systems, protocols etc have to be given physical instantiation, E.G AM IS BASED ON MATHEMATICS OF MULTIPLYING SINUSOIDS AND CREATION OF SIDE BANDS AS A RESULT, BUT IS EFFECTED USING ELECTRONICS TECHNIQUES IN CIRCUITS. (And I will let the accidental caps lock stand . . . ] 3. If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. [--> Without the contingency to make one thing stand for something else by analogue or code, we cannot communicate] And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing). 4. If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law). 5. If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. [--> We design comms systems, and the protocols or conventions involved are not driven by deterministic physical forces or by chance but by intelligent choice] In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes. [--> For a receiver to work, there must be a transmitter] 6. It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement. It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function. [--> Transmitters and receivers are planned together to match under protocols] 7. And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process [ --> TX and RX] ; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. [--> The impressed design] The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. [--> Yes] They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information. Next time you use a PC on the web using TCP/IP (= “Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and Internet Protocol (IP)”), think about it. Same for the Global System for Mobile Telephony (GSM) etc. >> __________ UB has not spoken in the terms that a technical t/comms person would use, but he has highlighted certain features of telecomms systems that are relevant to the question. KFkairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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Joe: Maybe that is the problem. He is a high level software only programmer, so he does not really have a feel for programming in machine-oriented code, close to the metal. That might explain not seeming to see that object code stored as states in physical strings is code. KFkairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
RB took the intellectual lead at TSZ and denied any need to engage the evidence because there was a supposed logical flaw in the argument. It took two months for him to concede otherwise. After his concession he was unfortunately left with the need to engage the evidence. But did he do so? No, he regressed back into the comfort of his supposed logical flaw, and summarily started the whole thing over again.
Anyone is free to read the exchange on The Skeptical Zone and find that this is such a gross mischaracterization of the discussion that it can only be a deliberate falsehood. Toronto recently provided a nice summary of what you are trying to do here.
Then there was Keith. Instead of engaging the evidence, he simply rewrote the argument itself, and attacked that instead. This is a move he continues to this very day.
Another falsehood. keiths rephrased your argument in an attempt to understand it and repeatedly asked you to either confirm that he had it right or to correct any misconceptions he may have had. You continuously refused to do so.
Then there was Elizabeth. Instead of attacking the evidence, she simply conceded all my points and then stood there wondering why any of this could be construed as an argument for design.
No, she accepted your definitions for the sake of argument and then asked how, even with this generous interpretation, your argument supports ID. As with keiths (and myself), you refused to answer and simply ran away from The Skeptical Zone.
My comment above (which you referred to) is simply to say that my argument has been read and understood by many.
This is a step back from your claim that your argument has been "in front of specialists in relevant fields". If there are people who understand your argument and you continue to refuse to clarify it, invite one or more of those people to provide the definitions and explanations required for others to understand it.
As for identifying those who have read my argument, I will refrain for the specific reasons I’ve already stated. People are free to make of that whatever they wish.
What I make of it is that these people don't exist. Prove me wrong.onlooker
September 13, 2012
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Upright BiPed,
Onlooker, you are just not any good at this.
At getting someone who is clearly frightened of the possible results of clarifying his position to do so? I must agree based on the thread so far that I do indeed suck at that.
Allow me to explain. Anytime you try to flank your opposition (i.e. a move into uncontested territory; a diversion away from the strength of the position in front of you) it is 100% incumbent upon you to get your opposition to take your bait. Otherwise, your maneuver will fail. That is a tactical rule that has been well understood for about 2500 years. Well… I’m not taking your bait.
It appears that we have two very different perspectives on this discussion. I don't see this in the martial terms you use. For me it is, or could be, more of an academic discussion. You've presented an argument. I don't understand some of your terms and claims. I would like to, so I ask questions. Unless you know that you're hiding something behind your impenetrable prose that you don't want me to find, there's no reason to think that I'm attacking you. I am genuinely interested in understanding your argument. I have devoted a considerable amount of my limited free time to participating here in order to do just that. Do I think that I'll agree with it once I understand it? Probably not, but I have no way of knowing what it is you are saying or whether or not I agree unless you make your position more clear. Anyone with confidence in their position would be happy to do so.
You desperately need me to think “wow, my argument is just so hard to understand” that “people might think I’m afraid to clarify it”. If you could just get me to buy off on that, then I would give you your desperately-needed diversion. Your problem is that you are not even the slightest bit convincing.
Your paragraphs 3 and 4 above are nothing but word salad until you define some of your terms and rephrase some of your claims. Not even your supporters here have been able to do that for you, so clearly they don't understand what you're on about either.
We can set aside the fact that my argument has already been vetted by specialists elsewhere;
"Specialists" who you have yet to identify. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
and we can set aside the fact that Barry wouldn’t have posted it here if it was incomprehensible;
You don't want to play that card. Barry also allows kairosfocus to post. Joking aside, if Barry understands what you're saying, you should ask him to provide the definitions and restatements required to communicate your meaning.
or that others on this forum (some of them biologists, technologists, engineers, programmers, and doctors) seem to read it correctly.
None of whom have demonstrated any ability to define your terms or clarify your claims.
By the way, you coming on this board and taking the 63 words of my #1 and #2 in the OP, and spending 260 words explicitly illuminating just how masterfully you could trim them down to just 23 words in a coherent statement that suits you, is not much of a demonstration of how incomprehensible the argument is. In fact, that was a rank amateur’s mistake, performed with great fanfare.
As I noted earlier, managing to extract some meaning from your first two paragraphs, with grudging help from your good self, says nothing about the clarity of the remainder of your text. To refresh your memory, here is exactly where I find your argument impossible to follow:
D3. Arbitrary: ? This word seems important to your argument, so a precise definition is required. Does it simply mean "separate"? What does the qualifier "materially" add to "arbitrary"? P2. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. This is where my understanding starts to break down. There are too many concepts packed into this sentence for me to parse it. By "representation of form" do you mean "information" (I am guessing at that based on D1 and D2)? What does "consequence of its own material arrangement" mean? What does "necessarily arbitrary to" mean (this may be answered when D3 is more detailed)?
4. If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).
I'm too lost at step 3 to get anything out of step 4, but what do you mean by "material component" as opposed to "arbitrary component"? What do you mean by "reducible to physical law"? I think you've got several more definitions and premises residing in steps 3 and 4. It would be most helpful to extricate them and make them explicit.
I remain interested in reading a good faith response to these questions and in continuing this discussion with a goal of mutual understanding.onlooker
September 13, 2012
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Does he recognise embedded ROM when he sees it, and does he recognsie a read-off and edited control tape used to run a NC machine?kairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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Kairosfocus- I think toronto knows about RAM and ROM as he claims to be a programmer. He wants to know the interface and the code used to program cells, not a computer. However it is because of the current paradigm that we do not know how to do so.Joe
September 13, 2012
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Yet ‘naturalistic’ evolution is the accepted paradigm throughout academia – even of the sainted Genetic Code.
And it is very noticeable that no one in academia can produce positive evidence taht supports it. Nor can they tell us how to test it.
No-one in biology is bothered by the presence of translated protein in the protein translation system. Is that because they are ideologues, or because they are capable of recognising that plausible mechanisms can readily account for it?
Stubborn ideologues
aaRSs, in particular, appear to be much younger than proteins of their type. If they were fundamental, they would be expected to be among the oldest proteins.
But blind and undirected chemical process cannot produce aaRs.
But the real issue is evolvability, and I don’t think you have done anything to support your case that it isn’t evolvable, by virtue of arbitrariness, ‘semiosis’, proven irreducible complexity or anything else.
Actually the real issue is the total lack of positive evidnce that it could evolve via blind and undirected processes.Joe
September 13, 2012
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Does Toronto understand the difference between ROM -- including occasionally reprogrammable ROM -- and RAM?kairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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tonto proves to be totally clueless:
Here’s a cell. Download some “arbitrary semiotic codes” into it.
We, humans, don't have the ability to do that yet. But that doesn't mean anything. Heck there are tribes of people that couldn't figure out how to build a computer but that doesn't mean computers are not designed.
Do you understand what all the readers are expecting?
Yes they are expecting you to put up or shut up. But the safe money is that you will never do either.Joe
September 13, 2012
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UB (& Joe et al): We have now come full circle to why the objectors are unwilling to even accept a basic understanding of what information is, how it is expressed in material systems and how it functions in such systems, in especially communicative and cybernetic contexts. It would cost their deeply locked in views too much. So, they cannot afford to concede the obvious, even if it costs them the price of clinging to the patently absurd. Where the reality of information and associated functionally specific complex organisation -- FSCO/I -- points ever so plainly to its well-known cause. Yes, points. For, we are here dealing with inference to the best empirically grounded causal explanation of a sign. The logic is not that hard to follow, in the end; IF we are but willing to be led by the evidence and reasoning:
a: We live in a technological world, in an info age, where the commonest measure of info, the bit, is a day to day familiar term. One we can look up in any dictionary, or basic book on communications theory. We know the equation, ever since Shannon & Hartley: I_i = - log_2 [Pi], in bits. b: Info systems, per Shanon et al, follow a well known pattern by which sources communicate with systems by encoding, modulating, transmitting, storing, transferring, receiving, demodulating, decoding and applying information. c: Systems routinely use such info to do things, ranging from control systems to PIN-controlled bank account access systems. d: In all of these, no observed exceptions, there is an intelligently directed organisation of material components to fulfill the requisite tasks, as we see from yesterday's announcement of the iPHONE Gen-5 model, with Apple at nearly US$ 640 bill mkt cap and poised to zoom yet further. e: In short, we understand all of this, sufficiently so that Apple has moved nearly 300 billions in value over the course of a bit over a year since Mr Jobs' passing. because hard and software products that embed FSCO/I are highly valuable properties. f: So, we know the sign, FSCO/I, and what it points to, cause involving IDOW, i.e. design. Where we have whole schools in our universities that teach budding engineers and computer scientists the skills, knowledge and techniques of design. (Apparently, we are being expected to shut our eyes to these massively evident facts.) g: Q: Why is this? A: because cell based life -- shock and awe -- is BASED on similar info technology, using molecular nanotech. We see storage and transfer of coded info, we see step by step algorithmic processing and informationally controlled assembly of components, we see despatch systems with addressing, we see walking trucks and highways, we see codes, thus LANGUAGE, and algorithms thus purpose and planning. And more, a veritable world of ultimate info tech, well beyond our own achievements to date, but recognisably related. h: The reasonable man or woman would ask: what is the observed cause of such FSCO/I, and is it analytically plausible that other ways can get there? i: The answers are plain: design, and per the needle in the haystack/ monkeys at keyboards type analyses, we see that it is not plausible for blind necessity and/or blind chance to create a sufficiently complex instance of such, where 500 bits of informational complexity in something that is functionally specific is a good threshold on the gamut of our solar system, and 1,000 bits for the observed cosmos. j: But, such is not acceptable, to the committed a priori Lewontin materialist, for that has in it unwelcome worldview level import, especially when we go up to the next level, the origins of a cosmos that is evidently fine tuned and organised form the basic physics of the cosmos for such cell based life. k: But, fighting on worldviews turf surrenders the rhetorical advantage of claiming "science" as your authority. So, artificial and patently specious objections are endlessly manufactured. To the point of increasingly evident absurdity.
The latest one seems to be, circling all the way back to restart the process:
You cannot “determine X” without testing whether X is possible . . . . But you . . . have accepted design without testing whether it is possible.
The neat trick here is to duck addressing the relevant X. What is the known -- massively observed -- and only credible source of FSCO/I again?
(And if you now want to suggest that FSCO/I is ill-defined, kindly explain to me what he ASCII code that is expressed in the glyphs on your computer screen as you read this is, apart from functionally specific complex organisation of components and associated information. By direct comparison, just what is it that is being expressed in the observed string data structures in D/RNA, using the genetic code to step by step assemble the proteins, the workhorse molecules of cell based life that fold to functionally specific and complex form based on that coded sequence?)
So, if we see something that has in it the SIGN, of FSCO/I, what are we warranted to infer as best causal explanation? As in, "like causes like"? As in, the same way we infer to the composition of stars we will never be able to directly insect or make for ourselves based on the signs they exhibit and what we know about the cause of such signs? Plainly, you cannot have it both ways. Either inference on sign is a reasonable approach in BOTH astrophysics and explaining the origin of FSCO/I, or it is not credible for either. And, it is obvious that the whole edifice of origins sciences is built on the claimed reconstruction of the past on traces we see in the present and studies on what causes could give rise to those same signs. Where in many cases, the strength of association between traces and cause-sign investigations is much, much weaker. (As in, even isochrons are not nearly as reliable as are advertised, and as in there is little or no actual observational, empirical support for the idea that minor adaptations can be reasonably extrapolated into body plan level changes.) In short, we see double standards in warrant all over the place. Weaker or non-existent evidence based on gross extrapolation is acceptable if it fits the evo mat narrative, but not even the strongest degree of support is acceptable if it does not. That is neither scientific nor rational, it is ideological captivity of science, education and civilisation that we are seeing. It is time to wake up and leave the cave of evo mat shadow shows confused for genuine realities! KFkairosfocus
September 13, 2012
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But you Joe, have accepted design without testing whether it is possible.
Nope, design is the only way living organisms are possible. Design is the only known process known to create semiotic systems. Design is the only way to get software into or onto hardware. BTW tonto, how do we know Stonehenge was possible? I gave you the answer already...Joe
September 12, 2012
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In studying any complex adaptive system, we follow what happens to the information. - Murray Gell-Mann
Mung
September 12, 2012
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Please explain, line by line, how you came up with your “summary” of Upright Biped’s argument.
And please define summary. Otherwise we won't really be able to know for sure if what you have given truly qualifies as a summary. :rollseyes:Mung
September 12, 2012
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UPB:
Then there was Elizabeth. Instead of attacking the evidence, she simply conceded all my points and then stood there wondering why any of this could be construed as an argument for design.
MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I wonder if she still thinks 100 pennies 'contain' 100 bits of "Shannon information." Wasn't she the one who proposed that she could demonstrate that 'the semiotic system' could arise with mere random variation and selection? The same one who later had to retract that claim? The same one who we were being so kind to by even allowing her to try to use 'a darwinian process' to bring about the very system needed for the very existence of a darwinian process? The same one accused on numerous occasions of intellectual dishonesty? And after is said and done, doesn't know why it supports ID? Oh my. The NERVE. The AUDACITY. The CHUTZPAH. (In more traditional usage, chutzpah is invariably negative.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutzpah The INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY! Do we really need to go back and review all her past attempts to argue against "the semiotic hypothesis" on the basis that it supports ID? And now she claoims to not know how or why it could be taken to support ID? OH! EM! GEE! For this I might even be tempted to open an account over at TSZ. Well, onlooker, just look at the competition you have.Mung
September 12, 2012
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Are you saying we can “determine Darwinism” without testing whether “Darwinism” is possible?
That is exactly what you have done, toronto-> you have determined darwinism without testing whether it is even possible. However that is not science, but you don't seem to know anything about science, either.Joe
September 12, 2012
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