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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
RB at 1310,
Yes, I saw the rhetorical backflip. When you excluded “any process that requires recorded information in order to function” you didn’t mean “any process that requires recorded information in order to function” (how silly of me).
There is no back flip here Bill. “Backflip” is a cheap characterization, given so that you may remove my words from the direct (undeniable) context in which they were given, and instead place them wherever they might do you some rhetorical duty. Try reading again: You asked what ‘could not’ create a semiotic state:
Again, I refer to observation; inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial condition provides no examples of producing semiotic states. I would also add to this any process that requires recorded information in order to function, such as Darwinian evolution as it is documented to function in living things.
Do you see those words “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions”? Does that sound like I was speaking about “agency”? Does it? What characteristics do you see in “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions” that indicates “agency” to you? Is it the “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law” part of the sentence, or is it more the “from any identifiable initial condition” part? Is it a little of both? “acted upon by physical law from initial conditions” = agency ? Do you really believe I was speaking to you about agency involvement when I said “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any initial conditions”? Of course not. No one would. - - - - - - - - - - - - - You have now resorted to defending your worldview by the use of common fraud. Congratulations Bill.Upright BiPed
December 13, 2012
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According to one source: "A descriptive theory tells us the ways things are, but not what we ought to do." See also: Options of Descriptive TheoryMung
December 13, 2012
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UB:
And here is my answer to the second part of your question…
Yes, I saw the rhetorical backflip. When you excluded "any process that requires recorded information in order to function" you didn't mean "any process that requires recorded information in order to function" (how silly of me). You meant to exclude "semiosis in the genome of a prebiotic earth, the very thing needing an explanation." But post hoc contortions won't help you here, as the issue is not what you said (and meant, however they differ), but what I said and meant, and whether your inference regarding my metaphysical assumptions was justified by what I actually said. What I intended doesn't need post hoc revision. Upon noting that you excluded "any process that requires recorded information" (which I took to mean, "any process that requires recorded information"), I meant that YOU have thereby excluded living agents as the cause of recorded information on earth, because living agency requires recorded information. Claiming both is a flat contradiction. Hence the need for the post hoc backflip. What you can infer about me from that is that I notice when you flatly contradict yourself.
If agency was impossible prior to life on earth, then it could not explain the semiosis on earth...In other words, you simply assume your conclusion.
As stated above, it happens to be my belief (no more than an assumption, I freely admit) that life has likely arisen in many places and times in this universe, agency somewhat less often (depending upon one's definition of agency). Your ascription to me of an assumed conclusion not only bears zero resemblance to my actual objection, it ascribes to me an assumption opposite to that which I actually assume. Where it gets very strange is that you continue to ascribe to me that assumption after I have directly informed you that I believe the opposite.Reciprocating Bill
December 13, 2012
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And here I thought a sovereign was a coin.Mung
December 13, 2012
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RB at 1307, I understand your situation Bill. As it turns out, you have absolutely no way to refute the observations in the OP. This has been made obvious. But even worse, you cannot even address them without confirming them. And given that it is obviously beyond your ability to acknowledge this fact, you are left to fabricate rhetoric and cling to unsustainable positions. This is now the second or third time you played this latest one. Let’s get this straight. Throughout all of our human observations regarding the material processes within this universe, in its entirety, there is one set of material conditions that is singularly unlike any other. It is the one where we, living things of every kind on earth, transfer information by the use of a material medium. We have exactly one model for this process, and none other. And yet that one model covers every single instance where information is transferred. Yet when we then find these exact same material conditions demonstrated in the expression of genetic information, your position is that we must exclude our universal observations, because if we fail to do so, we would create an infinite regress - which is valid only if materialism is true. Sorry Skip, I don’t have to assume your conclusions just because you do. Neither does anyone else.
RB: Also, within your framework, do not living agents (displaying massive organization) require recorded information to function? Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function? UB: If it is a matter of universal observation that all examples of semiosis on this planet originate/operate from massive pre-existing organization, on what grounds am I obligated to exclude that observation when considering the origin of semiosis on this planet? Will excluding the observation reverse the material requirements? RB: On the grounds that you just stated that among kinds of causes that observation tells us cannot create/originate/cause the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state are those that require recorded information to function. Do not all living agents require recorded information to function? If so, why aren’t they excluded on that ground? UB: You had asked me what class of mechanism could and could not create a semiotic state. I had already answered the first part of your question by drawing on the observation that all semiosis on earth stems from massive pre-existing organization (i.e. an agent). And here is my answer to the second part of your question:
“Again, I refer to observation; inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial condition provides no examples of producing semiotic states. I would also add to this any process that requires recorded information in order to function, such as Darwinian evolution as it is documented to function in living things.
It should be abundantly clear from this that I was addressing any speculated material process being the source of the semiosis in the genome on a pre-biotic earth. It should also be obvious that this would include the Darwinian process which requires that semiosis in order to exist. You then went on question why an agency mechanism is not also disqualified on the grounds that it would require semiosis as well. However, it does not follow that a proposed agency mechanism requires the semiosis in the genome of a pre-biotic earth, which is the very thing needing an explanation.
Read that last sentence again Bill. If agency was impossible prior to life on earth, then it could not explain the semiosis on earth. On the other hand, if agency was not impossible prior to life on earth, then ... In other words, you simply assume your conclusion. You can run all the rhetoric you wish Bill, I’m not obligated to assume materialism is true just in order to save you the hassle of dealing with the universal observations of mankind. - - - - - - - - - -
UB:: you haven’t demonstrated the sovereignty to even acknowledge the validity of the observations regarding the system as we find it today, so you’ve wagered nothing in having an genuine exchange about its origin. RB: “Sovereignty?” You are one strange writer.
(Merriam Webster) sovereign : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere; an acknowledged leader I suppose you have a point. I shouldn’t have expected an entrenched ideologue to understand he has the authority over his own actions. There is little doubt he would find such a suggestion "strange" in comparison.Upright BiPed
December 12, 2012
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UB:
Valid observations of material conditions were presented. You responded by advocating that (since agency involvement would require those same material conditions) these valid observations should be summarily excluded from consideration.
Another weird, revisionist account of a prior conversation. Recall that when asked, "Please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, assert is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state," you stated:
Our universal experience is that semiotic states rise only (or are in operation only) from massive organization (i.e. living agents).
Also recall that when asked, "please tell us what class of mechanisms you, or semiotic theory, claim cannot create the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state," you stated:
I would also add to this any process that requires recorded information in order to function
My emphasis. (You later clarified that neither claim flows from semiotic theory per se.) In response to which I asked: …within your framework, do not living agents (displaying massive organization) require recorded information to function? Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function? That was the basis of my objection. The exchange continued: UB:
on what grounds am I obligated to exclude that observation when considering the origin of semiosis on this planet?
RB:
On the grounds that you just stated that among kinds of causes that observation tells us cannot create/originate/cause the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state are those that require recorded information to function. Do not all living agents require recorded information to function? If so, why aren’t they excluded on that ground?
In one breath you stated that by "universal observation" semiotic states arise only from living agents. In the next you excluded "any process" (my emphasis) that requires recorded information in order to function. Last I looked, it was your claim that all living agents require recorded information in order to function. That obvious contradiction was the basis of my objection, twice clearly stated. Any conclusions vis my "metaphysical position" you drew directly from your own fevered brain pan. (Although not important here, your solution was a backflip of special pleading: "The question at hand is the source of semiosis on this individual planet roughly 3 billion years ago, not the ultimate source of organization in any conceivable context.”) UB:
The infinite regress is not a problem for me because I have no metaphysical priors which deny the valid logical ‘among a contingent universe something must be necessary’.
I have no idea what that means.
I could only “contradict” my statement if I had subsequently claimed that she really could provide a conceptual example. But I did not say that, and I have no reason to.
Your statement was, "You withdrew because the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process, and you know it." It is this clause that is flatly contradicted by your recent statements: "the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process."
Secondly, you haven’t demonstrated the sovereignty to even acknowledge the validity of the observations…
"Sovereignty?" You are one strange writer.Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2012
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Perhaps comparative details are forthcoming.
Comparative detailed hand-waving.Mung
December 12, 2012
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Eric @ 1293 I too have been interested in the details of this hypothetical falisfication. How can one say that the material conditions described in the OP are not necessary if one cannot even describe how a counter-example would accomplish what has to be accmplished? Of course, the first time this subject was approached at TSZ, the response was hardly convincing:
I am almost certain (from long experience) that Upright would like to avoid my questions by focusing instead on irrelevant details. Fortunately, that’s not necessary. We can talk about self-replicating molecules in the abstract, just as Upright talks about semiotic systems in the abstract.
Not only did I not speak in the abstract, I demonstrated my argument using the specific objects within the extisting genetic system. Perhaps comparative details are forthcoming.Upright BiPed
December 12, 2012
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RB at 1286,
I do recall you incorrectly ascribing that view to me.
Valid observations of material conditions were presented. You responded by advocating that (since agency involvement would require those same material conditions) these valid observations should be summarily excluded from consideration. This puts you in the logical position of saying that agency involvement was not possible prior to its rise on Earth. Only by wholly excluding it as a possibility can you have reason to dismiss it from the rise of life on earth.
It is certainly within the realm of possibility that life on earth was “seeded.” However, the issue of regress is inherent in that hypothesis, as it kicks the OOL can down the road. Given that you find the “seeding” hypothesis compelling and I don’t, that would be your problem, not mine.
Don’t be silly. The infinite regress is not a problem for me because I have no metaphysical priors which deny the valid logical 'among a contingent universe something must be necessary’. The regress is nothing more than a rhetorical tool for materialist culture warriors, born from their own assumptions. They project it upon their opposition, while they quietly resolve it for themselves with a hypothetical transcendent multi-verse. It’s a complete joke.
UB: That comment was perfectly suited to the person it was made to; as evidence by the fact that she could not provide one. RB: Nevertheless, it is flatly contradicted by your more recent statements.
I could only “contradict” my statement if I had subsequently claimed that she really could provide a conceptual example. But I did not say that, and I have no reason to. Perhaps you meant to say that my statement could be “falsified” by her conceptual example, but that didn’t happen.
Vis simpler instances of Darwinan replication, variation and differential reproductive success: the RNA-world hypothesis (again, as an example) turns on the conceptually feasible notion of precursor replicators that exhibit no genotype/phenotype distinction, and are therefore devoid several (all?) of the key “entailments.”
As I said in my previous post, absent any details, there is no point in arguing this with you. Firstly, it doesn’t change the observations in the OP. Secondly, you haven’t demonstrated the sovereignty to even acknowledge the validity of the observations regarding the system as we find it today, so you’ve wagered nothing in having an genuine exchange about its origin. And thirdly, the conversation goes nowhere. I say: “Here are the necessary material conditions of information transfer” You say: “They aren’t necessary” I say: “How so?” You say: “Simpler replicators with variation and differential reproductive success” I say: “That’s a lot of function, how does it work?” You say: “It’s hypothetical” I say” “It’s hypothetical?” You say: “Therefore you’re claims are false” - - - - - - - - - - Forgive me if I don’t ride that bus. :|Upright BiPed
December 12, 2012
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kairosfocus, Yes, I get it but it is a given that Alan doesn't or just refuses to.Joe
December 12, 2012
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The algorithmic origin of life googleMung
December 12, 2012
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According to the researchers, all living things have one property that inanimate objects don't: Information flows in two directions.
Another hallmark of living beings is that they have different physical locations for storing and reading information. For instance, the alphabet of letters in DNA carries the instructions for life, but another part of the cell, called the ribosome, must translate those instructions into actions inside the cell, Davies told LiveScience.
Sounds suspiciously like a claim that life is semiotic.
By this definition, computers, which store data on a hard drive and read it off using a central processing unit, would have the hallmarks of life
Or that living things contain systems exhibiting the hallmarks of a computer.Mung
December 12, 2012
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1300 comments and still no rebuttal.Mung
December 12, 2012
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Using a chemical definition of life — for instance, requiring DNA — may limit the hunt for extraterrestrial life, and it also may wrongly include nonliving systems, for instance, a petri dish full of self-replicating DNA, she said.
lolMung
December 12, 2012
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Joe: AF is adequately answered by the fact -- commented on here in the Jerad thread -- that Dawkins felt it necessary to resort to the RNA world hyp and to suppress its challenges, in the book AF has put on the table. The result blows up the root of the tree of life. The logic is: no root, no basis for shoots. And of course, having falsely accused me of being "dishonest" for pointing out Dawkins' epistemological blunder in over-claiming warrant and his moral one in comparing invidiously those who question to holocaust deniers, while AF has popped up elsewhere in the past 36 hrs or so he has not been seen in that thread. I hope this changes by later today when I can check back. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2012
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Alan Fox:
As I keep saying, evolution does not attempt to address the arrival of life on Earth, only its subsequent diversity.
Do you really think that your willful ignorance means something? Really?? Logic dictates that if the ToE does NOT address the origin of life then it cannot address its diversity as the two are directly linked.Joe
December 12, 2012
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And the 'Information' flowing in on this subject just continues http://news.yahoo.com/origin-life-needs-rethink-scientists-argue-000826792.htmlDavidD
December 12, 2012
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So aren’t we back to the question on the table? What is the most likely origin of the semiotic system we see before us today — purposeful design or chance?
Reciprocating Bill, and most other critics, must deny that the system is in fact semiotic. I await Reciprocating Bill's review of the following: Towards a Semiotic Biology: Life is the Action of SignsMung
December 11, 2012
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The RNA World hypothesis is constructed from two observations. 1. RNA can serve as a physical medium for the transfer of recorded information. 2.) RNA can serve (assist?) as a catalyst in biochemical reactions. From these two observations it does not follow that RNA is, or even can be, a self-replicating molecule. Reciprocating Bill, and keiths, thrive on the hope of hypothetical entities for which they have no theoretical or observational evidence. Ain't hope grand?Mung
December 11, 2012
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RB @1286: I'm trying to understand your viewpoint with respect to OOL not needing the entailments UB describes that we currently see in biology. Setting aside for a moment the very significant problems with the RNA-world hypothesis, are you suggesting that in an RNA-first scenario an RNA string itself was self-replicating? In other words, if I'm filling in the details of your hypothesis properly, the scenario is something like this: (i) an RNA string arises that has the ability to self-replicate (presumably this string arose purely by chance); (ii) the RNA string continues to self-replicate, with chance mutations over time, until it gains the ability to carry out some additional function, say, to catalyze some reaction (again, this ability would have arisen purely by chance); (iii) the RNA string continues to self-replicate, with more chance mutations, until it happens upon the right sequence to code for a particular protein (again, this sequence would have arisen purely by chance); (iv) at the same time, we have, what, some other independent stuff arising? For example, there has to be some kind of process (meaning, molecular machine and information driven sequence of events) to build the protein based coded for in the RNA sequence (again, this information and suite of machines would have arisen purely by chance); (v) eventually, the RNA string would build a simple organism, build DNA, create a code and put in place all the entailments UB has been discussing (presumably all this would have arisen purely by chance). Sorry. I obviously got pretty lazy with (iv) and (v). I started this comment with the intent of putting in some detail, but quickly despaired at about step (iii), as it is utterly unclear what the RNA-world would propose as logical steps to get to what we see today. In summary, I guess I'm not seeing how an RNA-string starting point gets us anywhere closer to explaining the entailments UB points out currently exist in biology -- other than relying on pure chance that is. So aren't we back to the question on the table? What is the most likely origin of the semiotic system we see before us today -- purposeful design or chance?Eric Anderson
December 11, 2012
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Alan Fox @1284:
As I keep saying, evolution does not attempt to address the arrival of life on Earth, only its subsequent diversity.
I don't have a problem with treating evolution as applying only after the arrival of life on Earth, whatever its historical underpinnings. So, assuming that evolution is irrelevant to OOL, would it be fair to say that life was originally intentionally created? If not, what alternative do you favor?Eric Anderson
December 11, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill: conceptually feasible conceptually possible conceptually plausible Do these three phrases all mean the same thing?Mung
December 11, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
Vis simpler instances of Darwinan replication, variation and differential reproductive success: the RNA-world hypothesis (again, as an example) turns on the conceptually feasible notion of precursor replicators that exhibit no genotype/phenotype distinction, and are therefore devoid several (all?) of the key “entailments.”
Conceptually Feasible = I can imagin it, therefore it must be possible. Are unicorns conceptually feasible? If not, why not?Mung
December 11, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
My actual belief is that life has arisen at many times/places in the universe...
And the evidence is...?Mung
December 11, 2012
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RB:
Susan Mazur may be crazy, but she isn’t a researcher, in the sense of “scientific researcher.” She is a journalist.
A journalist interviewing and quoting researchers. What's your point, if you have one?Mung
December 11, 2012
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UB:
It sure sounds like these crazy researchers recognize that it’s the existence of recorded information which facilitates the Darwinian mechanism.
Susan Mazur may be crazy, but she isn't a researcher, in the sense of "scientific researcher." She is a journalist.Reciprocating Bill
December 11, 2012
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UB:
What we’ve learned is that your position turns on a personal metaphysic belief that agency was an impossibility prior to life on earth.
I do recall you incorrectly ascribing that view to me. My actual belief is that life has arisen at many times/places in the universe, and that the suite of adaptations we describe as "agency" has arisen somewhat less often (a frequency that dramatically turns on one's definition of "agency"). It is certainly within the realm of possibility that life on earth was "seeded." However, the issue of regress is inherent in that hypothesis, as it kicks the OOL can down the road. Given that you find the "seeding" hypothesis compelling and I don't, that would be your problem, not mine.
That comment was perfectly suited to the person it was made to; as evidence by the fact that she could not provide one. I have since invited you to provide one, which you failed to do.
Nevertheless, it is flatly contradicted by your more recent statements. Vis simpler instances of Darwinan replication, variation and differential reproductive success: the RNA-world hypothesis (again, as an example) turns on the conceptually feasible notion of precursor replicators that exhibit no genotype/phenotype distinction, and are therefore devoid several (all?) of the key "entailments." Similarly, conceptually possible precursor replicators in which codons are assembled of four or more base pairs, and can therefore utilize RNA - RNA interactions to synthesize proteins absent ribosomes (and hence absent your "protocol"), are being modeled. These examples establish that Darwinian replicators lacking various of your entailments are conceptually feasible. They further established that it is conceptually plausible that such Darwinian replication gave rise to "the entailments" by unguided means. They each also suggest further avenues of empirical research.
You want a specific example of how knowing 'an arbitrary relationship must be instantiated in the system'can assist those who are trying to replicate the system.
Not exactly. What I am asking of you is a demonstration of that "certain knowledge" guiding specific empirical research into the origins of that system. Will you please provide just one sketch of an example (there should be many) at the level of specificity present in your fantasy of putting me on trial for arson? An example of that certain knowledge making a difference to empirical research. RB summarizes UB:
Simpler Darwinian systems aren’t possible.
(The referent is "Simpler Darwinian systems.") UB takes issue with that summary:
As already stated, a simpler system may or may not be possible.
(The referent remains "Simpler Darwinian systems.") From which it follows that you don't know whether a simpler Darwinian system is possible. From which it further follows that so called "universal observation and logical necessity," even as you construe them, leave open the question of whether simpler Darwinian systems are possible.
They are attempting to resolve the genotype/phenotype distinction
Among their efforts are hypothesized precursor systems that lack the genotype/phenotype distinction, systems further hypothesized to have given rise to that distinction by Darwinian (unguided) means.Reciprocating Bill
December 11, 2012
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And as I keep saying, Darwin's theory of evolution was offered as an alternative to the theory of special creation and therefore does attempt to address the arrival of life on Earth.Mung
December 11, 2012
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UB quoting Harry Lonsdale:
I think that first life was capable of evolution and that evolution began on that day that first life came into being. Was there evolution before that first life? I don’t think that. Evolution is what brought that first life to you and me — a long, long tedious process that took billions of years.
Evolution came after the first life.
As I keep saying, evolution does not attempt to address the arrival of life on Earth, only its subsequent diversity.Alan Fox
December 10, 2012
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an inventory of the necessary material conditions for the transfer of recorded information should not assume any conclusions as to the source of the transfer (i.e methodological discipline).
But it's not as if humans have never constructed systems the purpose of which is to transfer recorded information. Those systems and how and why they arose can still be studied to day. You have explicitly agreed; an accurate description of a system is essential to understanding it. One might say that understanding a system entails an accurate description of the system.
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
The book was better. So was the movie.Mung
December 10, 2012
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