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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
RB: There seems to be a lot of 'he said - she said' taking place on the thread lately which is sucking up quite a bit of energy. Let's assume, just for sake of discussion, that UB misspoke at some point in the thread and didn't use the right terminology. Let's further assume that you have caught UB misspeaking and have demonstrated this fact. Fine. What is your primary substantive issue with the semiotic idea being laid out? That: (i) the existence of a semiotic system doesn't allow a deduction of design, (ii) the existence of a semiotic system doesn't allow an inference of design, (iii) the inference to design is countered by affirmative evidence that a semiotic system can be built by purely materialistic processes, or (iv) we have no way of knowing anything about the design and can't say one way or the other? Amidst all the back-and-forth accusations of misquotes and misstatements, I'm just trying to understand which position you are taking . . .Eric Anderson
December 16, 2012
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UB:
this comment does not address the issue at hand.
What it does do is much more interesting and consequential than what it doesn't. And all I need do is repost, without comment: UB now:
…you also falsely claim that it [semiosis] ”neither requires a nor excludes a particular kind of causation”. And on the basis of this patently false claim
UB ~four weeks ago:
RB: "Does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state?" UB: "No." RB: "Conversely, does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state?" UB: "No."
More anon...Reciprocating Bill
December 16, 2012
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RB,
How, for God’s sake, do you shave?
As before, in the previously noted example of your refusal to address the standing distinction which resolved your claim of a contradiction, this comment does not address the issue at hand. A simple question: If the fire tetrahedron does not indentify a specific cause of a fire, but tells you (without exception) the mechanics of the fire, and by extension tells you what is materially required from that cause, is it then silent on causation? From #1008: (329 comments gao)
As has already been explained via the example of the fire tetrahedron; the tetrahedron defines (without exception) what is required for a fire to occur, but does not identify who or what may have caused the fire. Yet, if a fuel and heat source (specific material conditions) are required, then we know that the cause of that fire will have had to provide those requirements if they are not locally accounted for otherwise. This is non-controversial.
From #1088 (249 comments ago)
The relevance of the semiotic argument has already been explained to you using the very similar example of the “fire tetrahedron”. I’ll give it to you again. The older “fire triangle” stated that fire required three material conditions (i.e. a heat source, an oxidizer, and a fuel) as the necessary ingredients of a fire. But as it turns out, the mere existence of those three ingredients by themselves were not sufficient to indicate the presence of fire. What was required was the addition of a unique identifying process. The fire tetrahedron closed that loop by adding the specific process of combustion to the three material conditions; which when present, was sufficient to indicate the presence of fire. information (i.e. a material representation, a material protocol, and a materially-arbitrary relationship between the representation and its effect). The mere presence of these three conditions cannot confirm the existence of recorded information transfer, yet with the addition of a unique identifying process, they can. That unique identifying process is the production of unambiguous function, as seen throughout the living kingdom. Together, these three material conditions in the presence of this unique identifying process can confirm the transfer of recorded information. While the concept of the “fire tetrahedron” can confirm the existence of a fire, it cannot identify who or what started the fire (i.e. its origin). Likewise, the four entailments listed in the semiotic argument can confirm the transfer of recorded information; but it cannot tell you the origin of the system. However, (contrary to your assertion) in neither of these cases is the knowledge of these systems suddenly “silent” on causation. As stated earlier in this thread regarding the tetrahedron and a confirmed instance of a fire; if a fire investigator knows that a fuel and heat source (i.e. specific material conditions) are required for fire, then that investigator will know that the cause of that fire will have had to provide those specific requirements if they are not locally accounted for otherwise. If they can be accounted for, then the investigator will have no reason to search further in order to identify them. So to say that the fire tetrahedron is “silent” on causation is simply not true. The knowledge of the tetrahedron is the backbone of the investigation. The semiotic argument plays an identical role in a confirmed instance of information transfer; it provides a model of the material conditions which must be met (in order to explain what must be explained). Specifically regarding DNA processing (even if we set aside the question of a source of the material components involved) we can observe the system in operation. We can account for the material conditions present in the representations and protocols, and we observe the unambiguous function as a result of the system. However, we have no mechanism to account for the arbitrary relationship which exists between the representations and their effects, nor for the coordination of the protocols in specifying those effects. So unless you can document something to the general effect that “under unguided condition X, and in the presence of A, B, and C, a relationship will form between A and C mediated by B”, then it is completely obtuse and ignorant to suggest that the semiotic argument has nothing interesting to say (“devoid of relevance”) regarding causation.
From #1125: (212 commets ago)
You are so determined to characterize the semiotic argument as meaningless that apparently you will say anything at all. It. But no matter how you’d like to spin it, it is hardly meaningless to have it demonstrated that a physiochemically-inert relationship is the proximate source of life on Earth. You’ve led off with the unsustainable idea that the semiotic argument is silent on causation, and when shown that it is not, you hadn’t the good sense to just leave it alone, but instead returned with your indefensible screed at 1119. Its as if I told you that since the fire tetrahedron cannot determine who or what set a fire, then rubbing two cubes of ice together is suddenly back in play. Give it a rest Bill. When the horse is dead, get off.
From #1255: (82 comments ago)
The argument presented above needn’t do any more than it does; it employs universal observation and logical necessity to establish what is materially necessary for the transfer of recorded information. But you want to impose on it questions that it does not answer. You do this for the express purpose that you might grant yourself the luxury of ignoring it. It is a deliberate contrivance on your part, supporting a deliberate act of denial. The fire tetrahedron cannot tell you if a fire was set by any particular source, it can only tell you what is materially necessary for a fire to be confirmed. But no matter what the source of the fire, the fire tetrahedron will always remain true. It does not become useless to the investigator, notwithstanding your lack of discipline. Clearly, it is not what the argument ‘does not say’ that you wish to ignore, it’s what it does say.
Upright BiPed
December 16, 2012
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How, for God’s sake, do you shave?
That's a non sequitur. But I'm going to guess that understanding the principles of right reason allows one to shave while ignorance of the principles of right reason also allows one to shave. So it doesn't appear to be about shaving.Mung
December 16, 2012
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How, for God’s sake, do you shave?
Which area?Mung
December 16, 2012
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UB now:
…you also falsely claim that it [semiosis] ”neither requires a nor excludes a particular kind of causation”. And on the basis of this patently false claim
UB then: RB:
Does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism is required to create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state?
UB:
No.
RB:
Conversely, does semiotic theory per se assert that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state?
UB:
No.
How, for God's sake, do you shave?Reciprocating Bill
December 16, 2012
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Meanwhile:
A first cell is a minimal evolutionary agent; a naked replicator, or chained set of replicators, is not.
The Major Transitions in Evolution Revisited p 102Mung
December 16, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill at 1334, POINT ONE (a modest inconvenience)
For the record: Does RB claim that living agency must be excluded as a cause?
As a cause of what, Bill? The cause of what effect, exactly? As a potential cause of the semiosis found in living cells? Is that the effect you are alluding to? The position you’ve argued for is that semiosis is a false observation which adds nothing ”of value to our current physiochemical understanding” because you also falsely claim that it ”neither requires a nor excludes a particular kind of causation”. And on the basis of this patently false claim, you see no reason for “adding semiosis to the description we already have” and therefore it can be summarily excluded from the observations. Is that the effect you are speaking of? If so, then you are attempting to clarify your position on a cause for the effect that you do not even believe exists. This conundrum has been forced upon you by your inability to refute the observations of the effect itself (which is the topic of this conversation). In any case, you are certainly welcome to carry on with both positions. Do you want to exclude agent involvement in origins? You say "Of course not", you just want to exclude any evidence for it. But you can't make that case. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POINT TWO (an intractable problem) In 1334 you provide summaries of the post you’ve made:
Post #1286 (290 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it) I do not exclude living agency. Post # 1307 (311 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency. Post #1310 (314 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency. Post #1310 (314 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). I do not exclude living agency. Post #1317 (321 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). It is YOUR contradictory claim that excludes living agency. Post #1319 (323 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). I do not exclude living agency. Post 1321 (325 comments after you asked for a clarification and received it). I do not exclude living agency. Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency.
It does not go un-noticed that there was a clarification asked for, and given. In 963 you asked two questions, and in 964 you received two answers. One answer was about agency causes and the other was about material causes. You contrasted the answer given about material causes with the answer given about agency causes. You then immediately (996) asked about a supposed contradiction between the two. You were given an answer to that supposed contradiction in the form of a valid distinction between the two. You could not refute this distinction, yet this distinction fully resolves the supposed contradiction you created by conflating the two causes (without this distinction in place). One can imagine that this is the point of asking for a clarification in the first place. If that is true, then one cannot act as though the clarification was not given. It was, and it stands. Now (having completely lost at all attempts to refute/impugn/falsify the argument at the top if this page) you wish to forget about any of that, and simply assert (repeatedly, 300 comments later) that you have identified a contradiction. You haven’t. The distinction still exists. You did not empty it. You cannot empty it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - POINT THREE (freely recorded here on UD without the slightest excuse of moderation) From the OP, If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false). Good luck (you’re going to need it). You have been entirely unable to meet this challenge.Upright BiPed
December 16, 2012
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For the record: Does RB claim that living agency must be excluded as a cause? Or does he identify a contradiction among UB's claims that has that result? Let us see. 996:
Also, within your framework, do not living agents (displaying massive organization) require recorded information to function? Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function? I see a short circuit between your answer to my first question and your answer to my second.
Your statements are contradictory. 1286:
My actual belief is that life has arisen at many times/places in the universe, and that the suite of adaptations we describe as “agency” has arisen somewhat less often (a frequency that dramatically turns on one’s definition of “agency”). It is certainly within the realm of possibility that life on earth was “seeded.”
I do not exclude living agency. 1307:
In one breath you stated that by “universal observation” semiotic states arise only from living agents. In the next you excluded “any process” (my emphasis) that requires recorded information in order to function. Last I looked, it was your claim that all living agents require recorded information in order to function. That obvious contradiction was the basis of my objection, twice clearly stated.
Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency. 1310:
Upon noting that you excluded “any process that requires recorded information” (which I took to mean, “any process that requires recorded information”), I meant that YOU have thereby excluded living agents as the cause of recorded information on earth, because living agency requires recorded information. Claiming both is a flat contradiction.
Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency. 1310:
As stated above, it happens to be my belief (no more than an assumption, I freely admit) that life has likely arisen in many places and times in this universe, agency somewhat less often (depending upon one’s definition of agency).
I do not exclude living agency. 1317:
What I am telling you is that your exclusion of “ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function” excludes living agents as the origin of recorded information, because agents require recorded information to function.
It is YOUR contradictory claim that excludes living agency.
I don’t really care about the logical fate of your ETs.
I do not exclude living agency. 1319:
I otherwise don’t care about the logical fate of your ETs.
I do not exclude living agency. 1321:
[agency as an explanation is] perfectly compatible with my own assumptions – I’ve never said otherwise. What it contradicts is YOUR exclusion of “ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function.” The contradiction is internal to your own claims and has nothing to do with my homely beliefs on the matter.
I do not exclude living agency. Your statements are contradictory. It is YOUR claim that excludes living agency. Does UB grasp the above? 1322
If agency has “arisen in many places and times in this universe”, then your call to summarily exclude them as a possible source of the semiosis on earth is illogical
He does not.Reciprocating Bill
December 16, 2012
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Quotemine! I should have thought of that! Grrr...Mung
December 15, 2012
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UB quotes RB's clarion call for the exclusion of agency!
“Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function?”
Why not reproduce the entire passage:
Also, within your framework, do not living agents (displaying massive organization) require recorded information to function? Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function? I see a short circuit between your answer to my first question and your answer to my second.
Not a call to exclude agents. A call for better wiring. Quotemine much?Reciprocating Bill
December 15, 2012
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I suspect you are correct Mung. There appears to be no bottom.Upright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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lol I can't wait for the response to that one. I can hear it now ... But that wasn't a call for their exclusion, just a request for a reason they ought not be excluded. [Forget about the possibility life arose elsewhere and is responsible for life here, and the infinite regress that calls out for!]Mung
December 15, 2012
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RB at 1324
Another strangely disconnected comment. I’ve issued no call to exclude them.
"Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function?" "Do not all living agents require recorded information to function? If so, why aren’t they excluded on that ground?" etcUpright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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Above quotes are from Towards a Semiotic Biology: Life is the Action of Signs. The claims or insinuations by certain people that "semiotic theory" is something made up by Upright BiPed are due to dishonesty or ignorance (or both). But it's what we've come to expect.Mung
December 15, 2012
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Our path in this search to understand life processes has led us, as biologists, to a semiotic view. Life processes are not only significant for the organisms they involve. Signification, meaning, interpretation and information are not just concepts used and constructed by humans for describing such processes. We conclude that life processes themselves, by their very nature, are meaning-making, informational processes, that is, sign processes (semioses), and thus can fruitfully be understaood within a semiotic perspective.
...a theory of semiosis, contemporarily called semiotics, would include the entire sphere of biology (to be precise - that part of biology which deals with living systems.) Semiosis is the sign process - the fundamental process that carries meaning and in which meaning is created.
This investigation into the semiotic nature of living systems has taken a long time to emerge, since it poses a challenge to many of the prevailing ontological assumptions of both the natural and the human sciences. ...semiotics came onto the scene with it's full meaning, sense, and power only once we started to investigate how life actually works, only with the impetus to understand the building blocks of life.
Thus, semiotics is not only a matter of description, it is also primarily a matter of mechanisms - of semiotic mechanisms. ...Accordingly, biosemiotics is biology as a sign systems study, or, in other words, a study of semiosis in living nature. "Biosemiotics is the name of an interdisciplinary scientific project that is based on the recognition that life is fundamentally grounded in semiotic processes" (Hoffmeyer).
Semiosis is, in fact, the instrument which assures the maintenance of the steady state of any living entity...
Mung
December 15, 2012
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It’s a hard row to hoe.
But what's a poor farmer to do when he's killed the mule?Mung
December 15, 2012
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Hi Bill. Should we expect to ever see even an attempt at a refutation of the OP from you? Maybe for Christmas? Please?Mung
December 15, 2012
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UB:
If agency has “arisen in many places and times in this universe”, then your call to summarily exclude them as a possible source of the semiosis on earth is illogical… unless you have established it as somehow impossible, or simply assume it.
Another strangely disconnected comment. I've issued no call to exclude them. It is YOUR claim that observation justifies the exclusion of "ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function" that does so. The contradiction is internal to your argument, and doesn't arise in any way from my beliefs on the matter. There is no requirement that my assertions align with YOUR claims to remain logical. (In fact…)Reciprocating Bill
December 15, 2012
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Oh, and Bill, it has not gone un-noticed that you have yet to demonstrate that any of the observations given in the OP are false, or that the conclusions do not logically follow from those observations. Its a rather glaring ommission from the good work you're doing here.Upright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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As above, 1) that statement does not participate this particular of your contradictions. Indeed, I’ve never commented upon it.
The statement above provides the context of my comment. You want to take my answer about material processes and apply it to an agent, and you immediately seized upon this by asking me very specifically about a supposed contradiction. In that clarification you were given a perfectly valid distinction between the two which logically demonstrates why you cannot conflate them. For you to establish a contradiction from this, you'll need to empty that valid distinction, which you cannot do.
It’s perfectly compatible with my own assumptions
If agency has "arisen in many places and times in this universe", then your call to summarily exclude them as a possible source of the semiosis on earth is illogical... unless you have established it as somehow impossible, or simply assume it.Upright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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UB:
May I please act like “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions” sounded like you were talking about agency to me...
As above, 1) that statement does not participate this particular of your contradictions. Indeed, I've never commented upon it. Rather, it is your exclusion of "ANY process that requires recorded information." 2) agency enters by means of the statement, “semiotic states rise only (or are in operation only) from massive organization (i.e. living agents)." The contradiction arises when you try to simultaneously attribute the origination of the TRI to ETs while excluding ANY process that requires recorded information. Within your framework, ETs require recorded information.
I bet no one notices that since I believe that other agents arose at different times in this 14byo universe, one of them could explain the semiosis we find on earth, so my claim that we should exclude them as an ‘impossibility’ is logically incoherent with my own words, and I also bet they’ll forget this incoherence was pointed out to time 30 days ago.
It's perfectly compatible with my own assumptions - I've never said otherwise. What it contradicts is YOUR exclusion of "ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function.” The contradiction is internal to your own claims and has nothing to do with my homely beliefs on the matter. I would have thought none of this difficult to understand.Reciprocating Bill
December 15, 2012
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RB,
Yes, the backdown is simple
You mean: May I please act like “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions” sounded like you were talking about agency to me, and further, can I pretend that I didn't immediately asked you specifically about that and when you said "no" and gave me a perfectly coherent reason, can I just pretend that you said "yes" instead?
your recent ascription to me of imaginary metaphysical preconceptions was 1) weirdly disconnected from the reality of the exchange and 2) with respect to the actual content of my “metaphysics,” out to lunch.
You mean: I bet no one notices that since I believe that other agents arose at different times in this 14byo universe, one of them could explain the semiosis we find on earth, so my claim that we should exclude them as an 'impossibility' is logically incoherent with my own words, and I also bet they'll forget this incoherence was pointed out to me 30 days ago. Upright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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Yet another slab of empty metacommentary.
I suspect you’ll do anything, even offer me the opportunity to back down.
Yes, the backdown is simple: If you didn’t really mean ANY process, just say so, rather than generating more twisty little passages, all alike. That makes the contradiction evaporate. I otherwise don't care about the logical fate of your ETs - which is the reason I didn't pursue the topic further at the time. However, I have underscored the basis of my original question (namely, the above contradiction) in order to make clear to the person who is still following this discussion that your recent ascription to me of imaginary metaphysical preconceptions was 1) weirdly disconnected from the reality of the exchange and 2) with respect to the actual content of my "metaphysics," out to lunch.Reciprocating Bill
December 15, 2012
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RB in 1317,
Do you see those words “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions”? Does that sound like I was speaking about “agency”?
This statement does not enter into the contradiction I have identified. The proposition that does is your exclusion of “ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function” (my emphasis).
Yes Bill, the distinction you want to “identify” is between those causes that do and do not require semiosis in order to exist. But that wasn’t the question you asked. The distinction you now wish to ignore is the one you were asking about. It was the same one that I answered. Here’s the problem in a nutshell, Bill, you asked a question and got an answer. Then immediately over the course of three posts (996, 1003, 1011) you asked for a clarification to that answer, and you were given one which you could no longer argue with. So then you dropped it. Now you’ve circled back as if none of that had happened, and you want to claim a contradiction based specifically on the clarification you couldn’t argue with. I can only presume you’ve become frustrated and simply assumed that no one would notice this. You very specifically asked me for my justification in not excluding a possible agent origin of semiosis on earth because such an agent would require semiosis itself (just as Darwinian evolution would). By using the term “specifically asked” I mean to say that you asked me directly about this specific individual issue after you had heard my original answer to your question. But I highlighted a valid distinction between these two propositions, and I told you that it does not follow that such a proposed agent mechanism should be excluded because it would not require the semiosis on Earth (unlike the Darwinian process which is entirely dependent upon it). This is a perfectly logical position to take, and it is one which you did not engage further. Having any integrity whatsoever, you cannot ask for a specific clarification, then immediately get one, then ignore it, and then repeat (over and over) the words you asked to be clarified, all in the pretense that you never asked the question or heard the answer. And to make matters even worse, it remains a fact that the clarification given to you (i.e. the valid distinction between the two propositions) is entirely supported by reason (IOW, the “contradiction” is consequently resolved). It’s a hard row to hoe. Now you’ve gone and made your position even worse by not having the sense to just leave it alone. With your newly explained belief that life has likely risen several times in several places within the universe, you’ve not only demonstrated my point about the incoherence in your position, but in the process you’ve completely blown up your original “contradiction” claim by demonstrating the validity of the very clarification you’re trying to ignore. What a sad shape to find yourself in. I fully understand that you’d now like to portray a stiff upper lip and position my response as “special pleading”, but there is no amount of that tactic which can change the fact that your own beliefs demonstrate the valid distinction pointed out to you. When someone wants to position a logically valid distinction as special pleading, you can rest assured they’re obfuscating against that validity. One might wonder when you will have had enough of losing this argument. You will remember back in June when you were forced to concede your first round of objections. I thanked you for the conversation and was willing to leave it at that. Since then you’ve done nothing but dig a hole and stand in it. I suspect you’ll do anything, even offer me the opportunity to back down.Upright BiPed
December 15, 2012
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UB:
Do you see those words “inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial conditions”? Does that sound like I was speaking about “agency”?
This statement does not enter into the contradiction I have identified. The proposition that does is your exclusion of "ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function" (my emphasis). "Agency" enters by means of the statement, "semiotic states rise only (or are in operation only) from massive organization (i.e. living agents)," the second term of the contradiction. The contradiction arises when you try to simultaneously attribute the origination of the TRI to ETs while excluding ANY process that requires recorded information. Within your framework, ETs require recorded information.
Now let’s return to the current frame of reference, where you are telling me I must ignore the universal observation that all forms of semiosis stem from massive pre-existing organization (i.e. an agent) because an agent would require semiosis itself.
What I am telling you is that your exclusion of "ANY process that requires recorded information in order to function" excludes living agents as the origin of recorded information, because agents require recorded information to function. Backflips of special pleading follow: "I was addressing any speculated material process being the source of the semiosis in the genome on a pre-biotic earth." But "ANY process that requires the TRI in order to function" would include processes beyond those in a prebiotic earth - such as your imagined ETs. The backdown is simple: If you didn't really mean ANY process, just say so. That makes the contradiction evaporate. I don't really care about the logical fate of your ETs. What I do care to point out is that my objection to your "universal observations" arose not from metaphysical presuppositions you mistakenly ascribe to me, but rather from the fact that, prior to special pleadings and qualifications, the conclusions drawn from your "universal observations" contradict one another.
the only propositions I must logically eliminate are …b) the process of Darwinian evolution (because it’s a material process that requires semiosis in order to function, and therefore cannot be the source of that semiosis).
However, per 1286 above we have already established that it is your position that simpler Darwinian systems "may or may not be possible." From which it follows that you don’t know whether a simpler Darwinian system is possible. From which it further follows that so called “universal observation and logical necessity,” even as you construe them, leave open the question of whether simpler Darwinian systems are possible.Reciprocating Bill
December 14, 2012
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Well, Upright BiPed, you need to just pick up your little IC system and go back to whatever star system you came from.
And finally let us say that they seeded Earth.
Indeed. They had a theory that permitted them to predict where to find planets capable of sustaining life based upon their understanding of the requirements for a living system. Meanwhile, we can't even define life. Stuck forever in the mud.Mung
December 13, 2012
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RB,
As stated above, it happens to be my belief (no more than an assumption, I freely admit) that life has likely arisen in many places and times in this universe, agency somewhat less often (depending upon one’s definition of agency). Your ascription to me of an assumed conclusion not only bears zero resemblance to my actual objection, it ascribes to me an assumption opposite to that which I actually assume.
No resemblance? Really? Let’s play it out and see. Let us say that you are correct. Life began several times in the universe. And let us say that in one of those instances, Life beat us to higher mathematical intelligence by a few million years, after all, there are billions to go around. Let us then say that this intelligence developed incredible technologies (the kind we may have in a million or so years), as well as interstellar travel, and so on. And let us say they went off to seed prized planets with great potential for life. And finally let us say that they seeded Earth. They, indeed, are the source of the semiosis we have now found in the genomes of every living thing on this planet. Now let’s return to the current frame of reference, where you are telling me I must ignore the universal observation that all forms of semiosis stem from massive pre-existing organization (i.e. an agent) because an agent would require semiosis itself. And in return I tell you that I needn’t do any such thing because the only propositions I must logically eliminate are a) any semiotic agent on this planet (because we obviously didn’t create ourselves) and b) the process of Darwinian evolution (because it's a material process that requires semiosis in order to function, and therefore cannot be the source of that semiosis). I then end up telling you that your edict that we exclude these universal observations must be based on an assumed conclusion. The only logical detangling of your position suggests that you must have somehow eliminated agency from even being a possibility prior to its appearance on Earth. And in return you say “Oh no, you can't ascribe that to me, after all, I believe that life and agency have arisen many times in many places”.
Where it gets very strange is that you continue to ascribe to me that assumption after I have directly informed you that I believe the opposite.
Yeah, and I am informing you that the many facets of your ad hoc position are logically incoherent with one another.Upright BiPed
December 13, 2012
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"When we describe biological processes we typically use informational narratives -- cells send out signals, developmental programs are run, coded instructions are read, genomic data are transmitted between generations and so forth," Walker said. "So identifying life's origin in the way information is processed and managed can open up new avenues for research."
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/accounting_for067461.htmlMung
December 13, 2012
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RB,
I meant that YOU have thereby excluded living agents as the cause of recorded information on earth, because living agency requires recorded information … Hence the need for the post hoc backflip..
Again, there is no post-hoc back-flip. You asked questions. I answered them. You asked for clarifications. You received them. You then dropped the line of enquiry and moved on to other questions. Now you’ve run out of gas, and so you’ve returned with the wholly deceptive suggestion that I “excluded living agents as the cause of recorded information on earth because living agents require recorded information”.
RB at 996: Would not living agents therefore be excluded from consideration because they are processes that require recorded information in order to function? UB at 1001: If it is a matter of universal observation that all examples of semiosis on this planet originate/operate from massive pre-existing organization, on what grounds am I obligated to exclude that observation when considering the origin of semiosis on this planet? RB at 1003: On the grounds that you just stated that among kinds of causes that observation tells us cannot create/originate/cause the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state are those that require recorded information to function. Do not all living agents require recorded information to function? If so, why aren’t they excluded on that ground? UB at 1009: The question at hand is the source of semiosis on this individual planet roughly 3 billion years ago, not the ultimate source of organization in any conceivable context. RB at 1011: ? UB at 1016: I don’t mean to impart any inconsistency, and I believe the context of the conversation demonstrates that I haven’t. You had asked me what class of mechanism could and could not create a semiotic state. I had already answered the first part of your question by drawing on the observation that all semiosis on earth stems from massive pre-existing organization (i.e. an agent). And here is my answer to the second part of your question:
“Again, I refer to observation; inanimate matter acted upon by physical law from any identifiable initial condition provides no examples of producing semiotic states. I would also add to this any process that requires recorded information in order to function, such as Darwinian evolution as it is documented to function in living things.
It should be abundantly clear from this that I was addressing any speculated material process being the source of the semiosis in the genome on a pre-biotic earth. It should also be obvious that this would include the Darwinian process which requires that semiosis in order to exist. You then went on question why an agency mechanism is not also disqualified on the grounds that it would require semiosis as well. However, it does not follow that a proposed agency mechanism requires the semiosis in the genome of a pre-biotic earth, which is the very thing needing an explanation. As I said in my previous response; “The question at hand is the source of semiosis on this individual planet roughly 3 billion years ago, not the ultimate source of organization in any conceivable context.” In short, in the first instance I was addressing a material process which cannot logically both explain the semiosis on earth while at the same time require it for existence. And in the second instance I was addressing an agent mechanism which can explain that semiosis because it does not depend upon it. Again, this should be obvious from the context. RB at 1044: When you return, UB, why not cut to the chase and tell us where this all goes?
Upright BiPed
December 13, 2012
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