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UB Sets It Out Step-By-Step

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UD Editors:  No one has come close to refuting UB’s thesis after 129 comments.  We are moving this post to the top of the page to give the materialists another chance.

I take the following from an excellent comment UB made in a prior post.  UB lays out his argument step by step, precept by precept.  Then he arrives at a conclusion.  In order for his argument to be valid, the conclusion must follow from the premises.  In order for his argument to be sound, each of the premises must be true.

Now here is the challenge to our Darwinist friends.  If you disagree with UB’s conclusion, please demonstrate how his argument is either invalid (as a matter of logic the conclusion does not follow from the premises) or unsound (one or more of the premises are false).  Good luck (you’re going to need it).

Without further ado, here is UB’s argument:

1.  A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system (e.g. written text, spoken words, pheromones, animal gestures, codes, sensory input, intracellular messengers, nucleotide sequences, etc, etc).

2.  It is not logically possible to transfer information (the form of a thing; a measured aspect, quality, or preference) in a material universe without using a representation instantiated in matter.

3.  If that is true, and it surely must be, then several other things must logically follow. If there is now an arrangement of matter which contains a representation of form as a consequence of its own material arrangement, then that arrangement must be necessarily arbitrary to the thing it represents. In other words, if one thing is to represent another thing within a system, then it must be separate from the thing it represents. And if it is separate from it, then it cannot be anything but materially arbitrary to it (i.e. they cannot be the same thing).

4.  If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).

5.  If that is true, and again it surely must be, then there has to be something else which establishes the otherwise non-existent relationship between the representation and the effect it evokes within the system. In fact, this is the material basis of Francis Crick’s famous ‘adapter hypothesis’ in DNA, which lead to a revolution in the biological sciences. In a material universe, that something else must be a second arrangement of matter; coordinated to the first arrangement as well as to the effect it evokes.

6.  It then also follows that this second arrangement must produce its unambiguous function, not from the mere presence of the representation, but from its arrangement.  It is the arbitrary component of the representation which produces the function.

7.  And if those observations are true, then in order to actually transfer recorded information, two discrete arrangements of matter are inherently required by the process; and both of these objects must necessarily have a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up. The first is a representation and the second is a protocol (a systematic, operational rule instantiated in matter) and together they function as a formal system. They are the irreducible complex core which is fundamentally required in order to transfer recorded information.

8.  During protein synthesis, a selected portion of DNA is first transcribed into mRNA, then matured and transported to the site of translation within the ribosome. This transcription process facilitates the input of information (the arbitrary component of the DNA sequence) into the system. The input of this arbitrary component functions to constrain the output, producing the polypeptides which demonstrate unambiguous function.

9.  From a causal standpoint, the arbitrary component of DNA is transcribed to mRNA, and those mRNA are then used to order tRNA molecules within the ribosome. Each stage of this transcription process is determined by the physical forces of pair bonding. Yet, which amino acid appears at the peptide binding site is not determined by pair bonding; it is determined  by the aaRS. In other words, which amino acid appears at the binding site is only evoked by the physical structure of the nucleic triplet, but is not determined by it. Instead, it is determined (in spatial and temporal isolation) by the physical structure of the aaRS. This is the point of translation; the point where the arbitrary component of the representation is allowed to evoke a response in a physically determined system – while preserving the arbitrary nature of the representation.

10.  This physical event, translation by a material protocol, as well as the transcription of a material representation, is ubiquitous in the transfer of recorded information.

CONCLUSION:  These two physical objects (the representation and protocol) along with the required preservation of the arbitrary component of the representation, and the production of unambiguous function from that arbitrary component, confirm that the transfer of recorded information in the genome is just like any other form of recorded information. It’s an arbitrary relationship instantiated in matter.

Comments
RB:
I see no basis in semiotic theory for that claim, and there is certainly nothing in Darwinism that asserts it.
Darwinism is an untestable fantasy. The semiotic theory is evidence for Intelligent Design because of our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, ie sceince. That is what has you confused because you don't know anything about science. And your screaming "contradiction" doesn't make it so.Joe
December 1, 2012
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UB:
Darwinian evolution is dependent on the presence of recorded information in order to function. The presence of recorded information requires very specific material conditions in order to exist. Darwinian evolution cannot be the cause of those specific material conditions. To say that it can, is to say that a thing that does not yet exist can cause something to happen.
You repeat this often. Yet a finer specimen of a circular argument generating an assumed conclusion you will never find. The conclusion assumed is that the current system cannot have as a precursor a simpler form of replication and variation. I see no basis in semiotic theory for that claim, and there is certainly nothing in Darwinism that asserts it. Your repetition of this canard certainly establishes nothing, due to its circularity. UB:
There is absolutely no reason for you to suggest that this comment is false. It was made in a conversation with Dr Liddle and reflects the dialogue of that conversation. You may wish to disagree with the reasoning, but be that as it may, you cannot say that the reasoning was not provided and argued for.
Very amusing. A similar non-response was addressed by Lizzie at the time:
Ah. If by “made their case” you mean “put a case forward”, then I readily retract my claim. Of course I agree that a case has been made, and should have worded that in a more bulletproof manner. I meant it in the sense of “I do not believe you have made your case” rather than “You have not attempted to make a case”. Of course the case has been “made” in the sense that it has been put forward. I do not believe it holds water.
UB:
That is insulting to the evidence, Dr Liddle – to me, to the recording of this conversation, and to those who might have followed along.
But now we know that she was right, because you have now affirmed it. It does NOT follow from semiotic theory either that a particular class of mechanism is required to give rise to the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state (UB: "Correct"), or that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state (UB: "Ditto.") Lizzie's assertion that semiotic theory does not exemplify an argument from ID that successfully excludes the possibility of Darwinian origins of such systems was correct. UB:
As I have already stated, this comment was validated by the fact that she was unable to provide even a conceptual mechanism (and eventually withdrew her claim).
Another non-sequitur. "The observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process" is flatly contradicted by your affirmation that "It does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state." That contradiction is independent of any given individual's ability to suggest such a mechanism. One of those statements must be false. Take your pick UB:
Let’s put it on the table and discuss it. If it exists, then let’s assess its plausibility.
My reply to this deserves it's own comment, which I will supply somewhat later.Reciprocating Bill
December 1, 2012
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Whatever else may be said of the criticisms, they are shallow.
Critics of semiotic theory (those few that are even aware of upright biped's oeuvre) are not putting much effort into criticism because, I suspect, they have a hard time taking it seriously. If you want to get the attention of the scientific community, make some effort at communication. Publish a paper. Send it to scientists. Put some clothes on the emperor. Otherwise, waste no more time in self-delusion and move on.Alan Fox
December 1, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Here's what kills me about these so-called critics. Not a single one of them stops to consider just what is required to instantiate information in a material substrate and why those requirements are as they are. Whatever else may be said of the criticisms, they are shallow. Thank you for your presence and contribution here at UD.Mung
November 30, 2012
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Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that unguided processes cannot give rise to such systems.
It does not follow from evolutionary theory that unguided processes can give rise to any system, period. Therefore, evolutionary theory is useless.Mung
November 30, 2012
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RB:
Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that unguided processes cannot give rise to such systems.
There just isn't any POSITIVE evidence for it and no reason to think unguided processes could give rise to such systems. Might as well claim erosion carved the Sphynx. However guys RB is correct, Upright Biped's semiotic theory is totally useless to evolutionists, who blatantly ignore its implications and disgrace science with their very existence.Joe
November 29, 2012
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RB, re: "The [following] are false statements..."
UB: IDists have succeeded in demonstrating that what they consider the signature of intentional design is not also the signature of Darwinian evolutionary processes.
Darwinian evolution is dependent on the presence of recorded information in order to function. The presence of recorded information requires very specific material conditions in order to exist. Darwinian evolution cannot be the cause of those specific material conditions. To say that it can, is to say that a thing that does not yet exist can cause something to happen.
UB: You have also been given the reasoning as to why ID proponents claim that these observations are artifacts of design and cannot be assigned to purely material processes.
There is absolutely no reason for you to suggest that this comment is false. It was made in a conversation with Dr Liddle and reflects the dialogue of that conversation. You may wish to disagree with the reasoning, but be that as it may, you cannot say that the reasoning was not provided and argued for. And by the way, if you waiting to be satisfied only by a mathematical proof of an event that happened 4 billion years ago somewhere on the surface of this planet, then you have no business discussing scientific issues, particularly these.
UB: the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process.
This is also a comment made directly to Dr Liddle. As I have already stated, this comment was validated by the fact that she was unable to provide even a conceptual mechanism (and eventually withdrew her claim). Also, as I have stated, I am happy to open the claim up to you as well. Do you have a conceptual mechanism for the transition from a purely deterministic system to one based on physiochemically-arbitrary relationships? Let’s put it on the table and discuss it. If it exists, then let’s assess its plausibility (obviously we are not interested in mere bafflegab). If not, then you can join those who also cannot provide even a conceptual unguided process.Upright BiPed
November 29, 2012
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Hi Bill, When can we expect your long-awaited much-ballyhooed refutation? Should we expect that it will likewise be empty of actual content?Mung
November 29, 2012
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More empty metacomments. UB:
the question quickly arises as to just how willing you are to take pitiful and/or otherwise ridiculous positions in order to accomplish your goals.
The position I take above is that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class of mechanism is required to give rise to (cause, create) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic system. UB: "Correct." Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that only design, agency, intelligence etc. can give rise to such systems. I also take the position that it does not follow from semiotic theory that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state. UB: "Ditto." Therefore, it does not follow from semiotic theory that unguided processes cannot give rise to such systems. And I take the position that statements such as the the following, which capture your aspirations for semiotic theory, are therefore false:
You have also been given the reasoning as to why ID proponents claim that these observations are artifcts of design and cannot be assigned to purely material processes
IDists [from context: semiotic theory an an instance of ID] have suceeded in demonstrating that what they consider the signature of intentional design [from context: semiosis] is not also the signature of Darwinian evolutionary processes.
the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process.
The above are false statements, because they assert that semiotic theory bars unguided processes as possible causes for the phenomena in question, when it patently does not - as you repeatedly affirm above. With that, semiotic theory is shown to be a "bridge to nowhere," useless with regard to the key questions that motivate this debate. It does not follow that the span is in fact sound - but it does follow that a debate vis that soundness is a pointless waste of time, because soundness in a bridge to nowhere still gets you nowhere. Perhaps semoitic theory yet has something to contribute to research into the large questions you mention - has empirical entailments above and beyond that which is entailed by our current physiochemical understanding of the translation of DNA into proteins - but you either can't or won't state what those might be. So it remains useless at the margins as well.Reciprocating Bill
November 29, 2012
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(Oct 8) Onlooker, Your entire involvement here has been an attempt to massage over the unambiguous definitions given in the argument, in the hopes that you can make them malleable for a counter-argument. This has already been discussed here and here among other places. Unfortunately for you, your strategy has been transparent for the entire duration of your stay. You are now left with nothing but to return here and use the repetition of your attempts as an opportunity to sling more insults. It’s all you have left. As I have already pointed out, it’s a terrible way to have to protect your worldview.
#4 is a coherent statement and doesn’t need "detangling". Once again, you make derogatory assertions, but refuse to articulate any problem.Upright BiPed
November 29, 2012
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onlooker:
We can model transcription and translation as a code, but in fact what is actually happening is just biochemistry.
Yeah Eric. And we can model codes as codes, but that don't make em codes. And the genetic code can have all the features of a code, but that don't make it a code either. A person who denies that the genetic code is an actual code is not worth wasting any of your time on.Mung
November 29, 2012
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onlooker:
Just when I think we’re making progress and that you are finally willing to answer questions about your argument, you respond with your 1159 and dent my optimism.
An optimistic troll. How sweet. Spend another 1200 posts trying to define 'arbitrary' in a way that's not arbitrary.
D1. Representation: An arrangement of matter that constitutes information.
lol Here, try this: D1'. Representation: An arrangement of matter that represents information representing matter.Mung
November 29, 2012
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Upright BiPed:
One can presume that if my argument had concluded an arbitrary relationship was indeed unnecessary and undemonstrated by the system, you would not be so eager to position that result as meaningless.
That would be safe bet.Mung
November 29, 2012
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onlooker:
If you have a moment, please consider these two statements: S1. The fact that the processes of transcription and translation that result in protein synthesis involve a multistep chemical pathway justifies a conclusion of ID. S2. The ability of humans to model part of the protein synthesis process as an encoding of information justifies a conclusion of ID. Do either of these correspond to your understanding of Upright BiPed’s argument?
Nope, keep fishing...Joe
November 29, 2012
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onlooker:
We can model transcription and translation as a code, but in fact what is actually happening is just biochemistry.
How can it be just biochemistry when there isn't any biochemistry involved in selecting what codon represents which amino acid? So either onlooker is a liar or incredibly ignorant.Joe
November 29, 2012
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Eric Anderson, Welcome to the conversation!
Does your "semiotic argument" boil down to the idea that the genetic code we see is one of a number of potential such codes, therefore ID?
Almost, but not quite right. I'd say the fact that the genetic code is a code is indicative of design. It's not the fact that it is one among a number of potential codes (each of which would indicated design), but the fact that it is a code at all.
You are mistaking the map for the territory. We can model transcription and translation as a code, but in fact what is actually happening is just biochemistry. If you have a moment, please consider these two statements: S1. The fact that the processes of transcription and translation that result in protein synthesis involve a multistep chemical pathway justifies a conclusion of ID. S2. The ability of humans to model part of the protein synthesis process as an encoding of information justifies a conclusion of ID. Do either of these correspond to your understanding of Upright BiPed's argument?onlooker
November 29, 2012
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Upright BiPed, Just when I think we're making progress and that you are finally willing to answer questions about your argument, you respond with your 1159 and dent my optimism. You agreed with these definitions: D1. Representation: An arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system. Examples include: Written text Spoken words Pheromones Animal gestures Codes Sensory input Intracellular messengers Nucleotide sequences and you accepted my definition of "information" D2: D2. Information: The form of a thing. But then when we got to your paragraph 4:
4. If that is true, then the presence of that representation must present a material component to the system (which is reducible to physical law), while its arrangement presents an arbitrary component to the system (which is not reducible to physical law).
It became clear that those definitions do not help untangle whatever meaning you have hidden so deeply in that incoherent tangle of words. So, I ask again, what exactly are you trying to say in that paragraph? Should I change D1 to: D1. Representation: An arrangement of matter that constitutes information.onlooker
November 29, 2012
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RB:
And I am also stating that utterances such as “the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process” (and several others to the same effect reproduced above) are perforce false.
LoL! It's "false" just cuz RB sez so! Yup all science so far, RB!Joe
November 29, 2012
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Bill, your horse is dead. It's time to get off. Throwing our wits at each other has grown unproductive and boring. For all your compositional skills, you simply cannot demonstrate that the premises of my argument are false, nor can you demonstrate that the conclusions do not logically follow from those premises. All you can do now is position your failure as something that it's not; namely a technical victory. You are on the wrong side of the material evidence, and your resources have played out. My ability to keep highlighting this fact is superior to your ability to defend an unsupported position. This is not arrogance on my part, its simply a function of the evidence. You are quite obviously an intelligent person; if you had someting more than "gee golly gus" then you would have already played it. If you do not stop this, then I will. I have no interest in endlessly carrying on this kind of an exchange.Upright BiPed
November 28, 2012
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RB,
You may change “most charitable possible reading” to “most favorable possible reading” and the meaning of my post remains unchanged.
The argument is unambiguous to a competent reader anyway, and in your case, it is more of a test of ideological integrity rather than reading comprehension. In any case, it means that in order to transfer recorded information, an irreducibly complex core of two arrangements of matter is required, with each of these material objects having (as a matter of universal observation and logical necessity) a quality that extends beyond their mere material make-up (i.e. they instantiate a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship into a physical system which is necessary for that physical system to function).
The problem that is evident in the above vis causation is not an assumed conclusion, but the absence of any conclusion at all with respect to the causal questions that animate this debate.
When you’ve lost an argument and are either unwilling to admit it, or are merely treading water in order to save face, the question quickly arises as to just how willing you are to take pitiful and/or otherwise ridiculous positions in order to accomplish your goals. What “animates this debate” is understanding the history of life and mankind. Has it not occurred to you that in order to address such a stupendous question as “how did this all happen” we might need to understand what is materially necessary for it to come about? Shall we kid ourselves that you are somehow unaware that this is exactly how (just about) every significant advancement in human knowledge has ever come to pass? Of course, the position you’ve taken clearly underscores why your anxiety begins to glow in the dark. Gone are the promises of a chest-pounding refutation of my argument. You are now merely happy to point out that the biggest question in the history of the human race remains unanswered, and you are all too happy to use that triviality as a means to ignore what has been demonstrated to you to be fundamentally necessary for it to happen. One can presume that if my argument had concluded an arbitrary relationship was indeed unnecessary and undemonstrated by the system, you would not be so eager to position that reesult as meaningless. Feel free to deny this (then ask me again what value these observations provide which is not equaled by merely ignoring them).
It follows from YOUR position, and hence YOUR prior metaphysical assumptions, that semiotic theory neither requires intelligent origin nor bars origins by unguided means. You’ve affirmed that several times above. This will remain true regardless of my metaphysical assumptions, as it flows from yours.
Quite frankly, I think you'll have a heck of a time convincing anyone that your demonstrated desire to exclude all observations made by my argument stems from my desire to demonstrate those same observations. And enthusiastically highlighting the fact that my metaphysical assumptions produced a coherent argument which presumes neither an agent nor a material origin of life is something that I take as a methodological compliment.
UB: Will excluding the observations negate the material requirements? RB: Regardless of the fate of the “material requirements,” it will remain the case that semiotic theory neither requires intelligent origins, nor bars unguided origins.
Your response did not answer the question, so your ongoing refusal to address the real world conseqences of your denial remains fully intact. Obviously, your denial of material evidence does nothing whatsoever to change that material evidence. Your position falls significantly short of methodological naturalism, or materialism, or any enlightenment which might be presumed to stem from the two. Of course, this fact will have no impact on the trajectory of your comments, which only goes to underscore the conclusion that your are an true ideologue who has wilfully insulated himself from any inconvenient material evidence.
No. I am stating that given the most favorable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship. It therefore follows that semiotic theory per se does not exclude unguided origins of such systems.
Again, thank you for noticing that I produced an argument which cannot be said to be metaphysically biased, while at the same time forming a coherent explanation which you cannot refute. The fact that this observation (on your part) represents the centerpiece of your rebuttal, is an unexpected (but thoroughly welcomed) surprise.
And I am also stating that utterances such as “the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process” (and several others to the same effect reproduced above) are perforce false.
I am interested to know what the “other” comments I've made which you say are necessarily false (and would like to know why you see them as 'necessarily' so). As for the comment you quoted; that comment was made specifically to Dr Elizabeth Liddle when she claimed to be able to demonstate the rise of recorded information transfer within a simulation of Darwinian processes. My comment was validated when she unambiguously recanted her claim. Perhaps you can do better. Do you have a conceptual mechanism for the transition from purely (deterministic) chemophysical interactions to a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship driving the unambiguous function demonstated by living organisms?Upright BiPed
November 28, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
I am systematically stating that given the most favorable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – ...
Bill's intimate knowledge of semiotic theory is astounding.Mung
November 28, 2012
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onlooker:
D3. Arbitrary: Without direct physical connection between two artifacts.
FAIL! Arbitrary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allosteric_regulationMung
November 28, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill:
I am systematically stating that given the most favorable possible reading of semiotic theory... Well, a systematic statement eh? I guess that settles it. When can we expect your refutation?
Mung
November 28, 2012
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UB:
I love the self-serving inflection you place on offering a “charitable reading” of my argument.
You may change "most charitable possible reading" to "most favorable possible reading" and the meaning of my post remains unchanged. To wit: I am systematically stating that given the most favorable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship. We know that because you’ve told us so. I’m also stating that one needn’t accept that most favorable reading to see what conclusions inescapably flow from it.
I did not assume any conclusions in formulating my argument.
The problem that is evident in the above vis causation is not an assumed conclusion, but the absence of any conclusion at all with respect to the causal questions that animate this debate. Semiotic theory neither requires intelligent origin, nor bars unguided mechanisms. You said so.
Following your prior metaphysical assumptions, your position is to summarily exclude these universal observations from any consideration whatsoever – regardless of what class of mechanism could or could not create them. You wanted them out from the very start.
It follows from YOUR position, and hence YOUR prior metaphysical assumptions, that semiotic theory neither requires intelligent origin nor bars origins by unguided means. You've affirmed that several times above. This will remain true regardless of my metaphysical assumptions, as it flows from yours.
Will excluding the observations negate the material requirements?
Regardless of the fate of the "material requirements," it will remain the case that semiotic theory neither requires intelligent origins, nor bars unguided origins.
In real world terms, are you not suggesting that one needn’t accept material observations if they conflict with one’s metaphysics (i.e. in the way that this argument conflicts with your metaphysics)?
No. I am stating that given the most favorable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship. It therefore follows that semiotic theory per se does not exclude unguided origins of such systems. And I am also stating that utterances such as "the observed physical entailments of information transfer is beyond even a conceptual unguided process" (and several others to the same effect reproduced above) are perforce false. (Even if subject and verb agree to disagree.)Reciprocating Bill
November 28, 2012
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RB at 1165, I love the self-serving inflection you place on offering a “charitable reading" of my argument. It must comfort your intellect to think of the higher platitudes in one’s character, when in fact your promised refutation (now removed of all its initial bravado) has been reduced to the rather anemic satisfaction of simply pointing out that I didn’t assume any conclusions in my argument. (RB in May: “Your argument works only if you assume your conclusion.”) We've apparently come a long way (as it were) yet if your counter-argument slows any further, I’m afraid it may vapor lock and stall out altogether. Let’s look at what you’ve written now:
I am systematically stating that given the most charitable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship. We know that because you’ve told us so.
As I have already stated numerous times, I did not assume any conclusions in formulating my argument. To do so would not only demonstrate improper methodology, but it is a logical flaw which I had no intention of making. Again, I find it amazing that you see this as a point in your favor. But let us not forget what your real position has been. Following your prior metaphysical assumptions, your position is to summarily exclude these universal observations from any consideration whatsoever - regardless of what class of mechanism could or could not create them. You wanted them out from the very start. It’s as if you know full well that they present a virtually intractable obstacle to a material origin, and it quite obviously serves you better to be done with them from the outset as to be forced to incorporate them as the valid material requirements of the system. And in that particular vein, I asked you a very pertinent question which you have repeatedly refused to answer:
UB: And finally, the unanswered question: Will excluding the observations negate the material requirements?
What is your answer to this question? The only valid answer is “no”. A mechanism that has no empirical support whatsoever will still have no empirical support whatsoever. Such a mechanism provides no scientific grounds to believe it to be true, and that status will remain unchanged even if one ignores the material reality.
I’m also stating that one needn’t accept that charitable reading to see what conclusions inescapably flow from it.
In real world terms, are you not suggesting that one needn’t accept material observations if they conflict with one’s metaphysics (i.e. in the way that this argument conflicts with your metaphysics)? In other words, is it your position that proper scientific discipline is maintained while minimizing coherent observations as a “charitable reading” in order to exclude them from consideration? You have thus demonstrated that your personal metaphysics trump material evidence; they trump universal observation and logical necessity as well. I suppose I should thank you for your candor on the matter.Upright BiPed
November 27, 2012
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Reciprocating Bill- or is it just Repeating Bill:
I am systematically stating that given the most charitable possible reading of semiotic theory – YOURS – it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship.
Science deals with POSITIVEs, RB. We know what mechanisms can produce semiotic states/ physiochemically-arbitrary relationships. And we have told you what those include. OTOH you cannot produce any evidence for any other class of mechanism capable of producing semiotic states/ physiochemically-arbitrary relationships. People have noticed. Also science does not deal with absolutes, ie proof. And that leaves the door open for some future researcher to come along and make a name for herself by overturning a long-standing scientific fact. Geez RB, it's as if you are scientifically illiterate and dang proud of it.Joe
November 27, 2012
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Mung:
Those are your definitions? From the OP: 1. A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system... So, it looks to me like you just lifted them from the OP and that UPB accepted his own definitions.
As I stated in 1034, above: "I don’t find observations at the top of the page. I do find a definition: 'A representation is an arrangement of matter which evokes an effect within a system.'"Reciprocating Bill
November 27, 2012
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UB:
Are you haphazardly suggesting that you now accept the universal observation that a set of physiochemically-arbitrary relationships are a fundamental requirement in the origin of Life on Earth, and given that such systems only stem from massive pre-existing organization (i.e. agents), agent origin is a viable explanation based on universal observation?
Why, I'm glad you asked. I am systematically stating that given the most charitable possible reading of semiotic theory - YOURS - it still does not follow that a particular class or classes of mechanism cannot create (result in, cause) the entailments/the TRI/a semiotic state, and therefore a physiochemically-arbitrary relationship. We know that because you've told us so. I'm also stating that one needn’t accept that charitable reading to see what conclusions inescapably flow from it.Reciprocating Bill
November 27, 2012
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I was being sarcastic :) I can't say onlooker's comment deserved even sarcasm, but I couldn't resist.Mung
November 27, 2012
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Thank you Eric. I would also add that the conclusion of the argument given at the top of this page clearly appears at the end of the argument given at the top of this page. Nowehere in that conclusion does the word "therefore" or the phrase "therefore ID" appear in that conclusion. Such additions are tacked on solely for petty rhetorical benefit, with the intention of minimizing the content of the argument - having been unable to refute the argument on its actual merits.Upright BiPed
November 27, 2012
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