UD Announces General Amnesty

_{Barry Arrington

October 21, 2014

Intelligent Design}

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Today UD editors completely deleted both their “banned” list and their “comment moderation” list. Anyone in the world with access to the internet is currently free to comment on the site.

I (i.e., Barry Arrington) am almost certainly going to regret this decision and sooner rather than later. There were hundreds of trolls trapped in the “banned” and “moderation” queues. Frankly, images of this scene from Ghostbusters went through my mind as a pressed the “release” button.

Let’s hope it does not come to that.

Comments

Discussions about hell are not new on UD. Some fundamentalist preacher who used to comment here once referred me to a YouTube video of some other fundamentalist preacher using the book of Revelation to prove the existence of hell. He goes on to read literally from a book that is known to be purely metaphorical. Then the UD preacher/commenter began quoting some dubious passage in the New Testament about Lazarus and hell to make his point that hell is real because the Bible says so. Never mind that he's idolater for worshipping a book. That's right. If you believe that the Bible is 100% infallible, you are committing idolatry. Now we all know that the Catholic Church has had its share of blatant corruption and evil right from the beginning. It is a certainty that Church leaders incorporated their own evil teachings into their compilation of the New Testament. The only book the jackasses could not touch with their self-serving fingers is the book of Revelation because they have no idea what it means. Of course, they could not mess with the old Testament only because the Jews would not allow it. One would think that the Protestant churches would have ran away from this evil crap. No Siree. Baptists, Adventists and others just love to preach about hellfire and damnation. No wonder the morons believe that the entire universe was created 6000 years ago. It's freaking pathetic and they have no excuse. Atheism and Darwinism are mostly a reaction to all that nonsense. They can all kiss my asteroid. And yes, I am a Christian. And yes, I always tell it like I see it.Mapou_{October 23, 2014
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198 Box
For God to separate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly.
Your poor analogy is not even wrong, because it doesn't relate to the biblical message. You got it completely inverted. Keeping with the style of your failed poor analogy attempt, it would be more like a father warning his teenaged son not to walk to the edge of a cliff, but the rebellious son ignoring his Father's warnings and falling into the abyss. In the case of the Christian story, the father still reaches out to the falling son and offers him a way to stop the fall and get out of that pit, but the proud son rejects his Father's offer and continues to fall.Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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I believe in hell. I tend to think of it in these terms: God is good. Further, God is the author and sustainer of everything good or worthwhile. Nothing of any value or good exists without God's active investment of His Person and Spirit into it. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. In this age of grace, God graciously gives everyone the free will to either connect with Him or isolate from Him. This is not an insignificant choice. Rather, this choice is the ultimate purpose of our lives. At the end of our lives we are judged such that our temporary choice about God and our relationship to Him is made permanent. Those who have chosen to isolate from God will be forever isolated from God. Since God is the author and sustainer of all that is good and worthwhile, they will also be forever isolated from all that is good and worthwhile. Being utterly and eternally isolated from God and, as a result, all that is good and worthwhile will be extremely unpleasant. The absence of all that is good and worthwhile is, by definition, the presence of utter and absolute evil. This evil is worse than any we might experience on earth because it is without restraint. It is to be avoided as one might avoid torture.Phinehas_{October 23, 2014
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203 StephenB Thank you!Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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198 Box
We all know that a person can make huge mistakes. But a person can change his/her mind. A person can come to his/her senses. God will take this in account and He knows that the value of an act is only absolute if done fully aware of all implications. The criterium is awareness. A choice is only free if made fully aware. Obviously, humans are incapable of making choices on this level.
What documents do you base your opinion on? Once this age of grace passes away, it'll be too late for people to change their minds. However, for every individual, it is physical death that shutdowns that possibility.
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. [Hebrews 9:27-28 (ESV)]
Check out this story Jesus told His disciples:
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” [Luke 16:19-31]
Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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"the evidence (for reincarnation) is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations," Ian Stevenson http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.htmlbornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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Here it is StephenB on page 67 “The Problem of Pain,” by C.S. Lewis http://www.fellowshipoffaith.org/images/files/upload/Problem_of_Pain.pdfbornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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Dionisio #202, I have provided arguments to motivate my objection; post #198. Would you care to address those arguments?Box_{October 23, 2014
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On the subject of hell, I would recommend Chapter VIII in "The Problem of Pain," by C.S. Lewis. It can be found on line.StephenB_{October 23, 2014
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198 Box
I’m strongly objecting to the forever aspect of the separation of God.
That's your opinion, which I respect, but it doesn't have any enforcing effect whatsoever on reality. I could strongly object the heavy raining here in my neighborhood today, because it affects my plans, but my strong objection has no effect whatsoever on the rain at all. Well, at least not yet. :)Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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Vishnu. perhaps you were not paying attention when Box and I box went over the Ian Stevenson cite? "His dualism became stronger after he experimented with mescaline and LSD." http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html not exactly the sort of researcher I would stake my eternal soul on! Moreover, Betty Eadie was already found wanting, i.e. Shirley McLain style,,, Embraced by the Light of Deception http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/eadie.html Repeating evidence that was already shown to be suspect in its integrity does not help you establish your case V (save perhaps in your own imagination). Moreover, I repeat that eastern cultures that believe in reincarnation the strongest have the consistently worse negative NDE's, for instance,, Near-Death Experiences in Thailand – Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of ‘going’. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Thus undermining the foundation you would want to attach to 'evolving souls', i.e. reincarnation. Anomalous western NDEs in Judeo-Christian cultures do not solve this problem for you with eastern NDEs! as to: Again I ask (will you answer?), why would a loving and merciful God create a place of eternal torture and suffering, when instead he could simply snuff out the consciousness of the damned? and to repeat myself, as I told Box, if it helps you to believe in annihilation of the soul, so be it, I cannot, empirically, support or refute that position one way or the other. What I can show empirically is that a 'timeless', i.e. eternal, place of destruction exists in reality. “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476 As to what happens to souls there, (if souls go there), is up to anyone's guess. I have no qualms if someone wants to say that rebellious souls are simply annihilated in God's mercy. ALL I WAS POINTING OUT was that a place of timeless destruction exists in reality just as is postulated in Christian Theism.bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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190 bornagain77
So we have all sorts of people on UD...
Well, is this a religious congregation of a particular denomination*? This UD blog seems more like an eintopf, doesn't it? Are there two persons in this site sharing exactly the same worldview and opinions on everything? However, there are essential issues and non essential stuffs. It has been said that in the essentials unity, in non essentials liberty, in all things charity. It is written:
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes. [Proverbs 26:4-5 (ESV)]
Commentary:
Taken together these verses illustrate the point that no proverb is intended to cover every possible situation. The apparent contradiction in the two proverbs indicates that proverbs must be appropriately applied. One situation demands that we avoid playing the fool’s game by giving an answer, while another demands that we expose the folly so that the fool is not considered wise. [Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]
PS. (*) I think Ravi Z. referred to it as 'abomination' in a presentation.Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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Box: For God to seperate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly.
Good metaphor.Vishnu_{October 23, 2014
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Dionisio, I cannot give you any interesting answer to questions about the 'age of grace' - I'm not familiar with it, I would have to google for it.
Dionisio: Those souls who, by their own choice, will remain apart from God forever, (...)
I'm strongly objecting to the forever aspect of the seperation of God. We all know that a person can make huge mistakes. But a person can change his/her mind. A person can come to his/her senses. God will take this in account and He knows that the value of an act is only absolute if done fully aware of all implications. The criterium is awareness. A choice is only free if made fully aware. Obviously, humans are incapable of making choices on this level. For God to seperate Himself from a deluded person for eternity is like a mother throwing her three year old son out of the window of a skyscraper, because he said he wanted to fly.Box_{October 23, 2014
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Hey BA77, have you invesigated this?
Instead of relying on hypnosis to verify that an individual has had a previous life, he instead chose to collect thousands of cases of children who spontaneously (without hypnosis) remember a past life. Dr. Ian Stevenson uses this approach because spontaneous past life memories in a child can be investigated using strict scientific protocols Hypnosis, while useful in researching into past lives, is less reliable from a purely scientific perspective. In order to collect his data, Dr. Stevenson methodically documents the child's statements of a previous life. Then he identifies the deceased person the child remembers being, and verifies the facts of the deceased person's life that match the child's memory. He even matches birthmarks and birth defects to wounds and scars on the deceased, verified by medical records. His strict methods systematically rule out all possible "normal" explanations for the child’s memories.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-proof.htm There are numerous reports worldwide where children spontaneous remember past lives with details that can be objectively investigated. What's your explanation for this?Vishnu_{October 23, 2014
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BA77: So we have all sorts of people on UD proclaiming that ‘if they were God they would not create a hell’
No, it looks like what most people are objecting to is an eternal place of torment. Again I ask (will you answer?), why would a loving and merciful God create a place of eternal torture and suffering, when instead he could simply snuff out the consciousness of the damned?
and once again I point out that no one besides me has actually offered any solid empirical evidence for their position. Thus once again I point out, hell, i.e. a ‘timeless’ place of destruction, exists in reality is a empirically observed fact, not a personal opinion about how God ought to run the universe! Thus once again I hold my position to be the stronger!
That's ridiculous, as anyone can tell by perusing http://iands.org/home.html and similar sites. There are all kinds of stories from people with all kinds of backgrounds, and many contradict your pet theology, as does Betty Eadie, so claims there is no eternal place of torment. Their experiences are all just as "empirical" as the stories you cherry pick as compatible with your pet theology.Vishnu_{October 23, 2014
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Kind of weird ... after a flurry of newcomers checking in and a few discussions starting, day two of amnesty has almost all the active discussions between UD-regulars. Maybe ID has been so successful that there really is no opposition any more? It's got to be pretty difficult to argue that there is no observable/measurable difference between a pile of legos and a lego-castle (pile of sand/sand castle, gibberish/Shakespeare, etc).Silver Asiatic_{October 23, 2014
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187 Box You got it wrong, buddy! My comment was about someone else. It did not relate to you, at least not yet. :) Next time, try to read more carefully. But that's fine, we all make mistakes. I make many of them too often.Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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183 Box Can you answer the following questions?
What is the meaning of grace in the expression ‘age of grace’? Whose grace? To whom? What’s the benefit of having God’s grace in this current age? The benefit to Christians and to non Christians? If grace is associated with the current age, will it end with this age?
It is written that God allows certain things to happen, and does not allow other things to happen (for example, see Job chapter 1 in the Old Testament). All according to His sovereign will, His grace, His holiness, His wisdom. In the age to come, God will not restrain anything. The souls that will be eternally in God’s presence will have no restrain to do anything they want, which will be worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time. Those souls who, by their own choice, will remain apart from God forever, will have no restrain to do anything they want – i.e. no absolute objective moral law. Therefore, everyone will be allowed to setup their own rules and standards, without God's interference. Isn't that what many want now? Well, they'll get it. Any idea what that will look like? Not exactly. But definitely doesn't seem very appealing to me. Does it look attractive to you? Interestingly, to the followers of Christ, this world is the closest we will ever be to experiencing what that Godlessness will be like, though only as a weak sneak preview (thank God!). The real thing will be eternally total absence of God's grace. Definitely repulsive. There are many things in this world that we detest already, but many people like or have no problem with. Is all that associated with the controversial concept of 'hell'? Apparently that's it. A minimal fraction of that seems appalling to some of us. Now imagine the full blown thing. Unbearable? Well, that's exactly what many seem to long for, isn't it? Then, why so much complaining? The prophet Jeremiah wrote:
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
C. S. Lewis wrote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'
Ironically, in Russian language they say 'horror show' to say 'good' Now, go figure. :)Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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WJM, Just out of curiosity William, what is your position on reincarnation?Box_{October 23, 2014
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I can agree with the concept of hell a process of destruction (of evil), but not as eternal torture with no hope of escape.William J Murray_{October 23, 2014
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So we have all sorts of people on UD proclaiming that 'if they were God they would not create a hell', and once again I point out that no one besides me has actually offered any solid empirical evidence for their position. Thus once again I point out, hell, i.e. a 'timeless' place of destruction, exists in reality is a empirically observed fact, not a personal opinion about how God ought to run the universe! Thus once again I hold my position to be the stronger! What is that saying about opinions???bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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I don't know about you Box, but God saving me, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, from hell is not only 'worthy of our love' but is also worthy of our undying loyalty and devotion. ,,,Such as the love, loyalty, and undying devotion this former militant atheist displays for Christ after being saved from hell by Him,,, video - Hear former atheist Howard Storm’s moving firsthand account of his (Near Death) experience in Hell during a brush with death in Paris, France. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342593001 video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/video/?video=2625342592001 "I knew for certain there was no such thing as life after death. Only simple minded people believed in that sort of thing. I didn't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell, or any other fairy tales. I drifted into darkness. Drifting asleep into anihilation.,,(Chapter 2 - The Descent),, I was standing up. I opened my eyes to see why I was standing up. I was between two hospital beds in the hospital room.,,, Everything that was me, my consciousness and my physical being, was standing next to the bed. No, it wasn't me lying in the bed. It was just a thing that didn't have any importance to me. It might as well have been a slab of meat in the supermarket",,, Howard Storm - former hard-core atheist - Excerpt from his book, 'My Descent Into Death' (Page 12-14) http://books.google.com/books?id=kd4gxtQAeq8C&pg=PA12#v=onepage&q&f=false verse John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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I agree with Box. The concept of hell as a place of eternal torture and suffering for any reason whatsoever is, IMO, not morally justifiable and is certainly not rationally derivable from the premise of a loving god.William J Murray_{October 23, 2014
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Visibly you’re wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion with someone who seems only interested in playing games. It has been written beyond enough by now, therefore there’s no excuse for anyone to pretend having misunderstandings or being confused.
Don't be uncharitable Dionisio, I can assure you that I'm asking these questions because I honestly believe that the concept of Hell does not make any sense in conjunction with a God worthy of our love.Box_{October 23, 2014
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with me- not to me.Joe_{October 23, 2014
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Dionisio:
Visibly you’re wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion ...
Kind of like trying to talk (about)religion to me. :)Joe_{October 23, 2014
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Andre Visibly you're wasting your precious time on a senseless discussion with someone who seems only interested in playing games. It has been written beyond enough by now, therefore there's no excuse for anyone to pretend having misunderstandings or being confused. A person genuinely seeking truth would behave much differently. Pay attention to the wording details. Remember how Jesus responded questions with other questions. He is the main interrogator. We should imitate Him. There are obvious signs in some interlocutors' writing that clearly indicate their motives and intentions have nothing to do with seeking truth. Did you notice how much they complain about questions, which they call 'interrogation'? Others have done the same before, in this same site. It's a common pattern. The lost sheep that belong to the Shepherd will recognize His voice and run to Him before it's too late. Please, remember that many won't be in the wedding of the Lamb of God with His church, because they have decided to stay out or because divine election. We don't understand the exact mechanisms, that's why there are interdenominational discussions about this topic among the Christians. There's nothing you or I can do about that. We just preach the Gospels, the good news, but we don't have the power to change hearts, to open eyes, to save anyone. I don't know about your own experience, but I wasn't born believing in God. I was educated in a strong atheist environment, and I felt in it fine. For many years I didn't understand anything about God, didn't know, and didn't care either. To me it didn't make sense, but when someone invited me to read some Scripture passages, I did not mock him, though I did not understand what he gave me to read. University degrees don't help in those moments. The wisdom of this world won't do anything to make anyone see the truth. It's mysterious, but it's real. I personally believe that it was God who made me see the reality. I could not have done it. It was His divine touch that opened my eyes. It was His Holy Spirit that gave me the saving faith in the redemptive effect of Christ's death on the cross. We share the joy of the good news with all, because we have a compassionate heart for the lost sheep. After all, not so long ago we were in that category too. We don't know who among them will recognize the voice of the Lord and run to Him before it's too late. Some will. Some won't. Let's not forget this:
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” [1 Corinthians 1:1-31]
Dionisio_{October 23, 2014
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Andre #163: But if we reject Christ’s sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve.
Do you mean to say "if we reject Christ’s sacrifice for our sin - during our earthly life - then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve."? If so, can you explain why this period is so all deciding (- see also post #139). Do you think it is possible that people reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, but don't wish to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Or is the rejection of Christ's sacrifice exactly the same as the wish to be to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Why is there no other choice for God? Why is there no other option for God than torturing people - who don't accept Christ's sacrifice - for eternity? Why not create a less extreme environment for these deluded souls?
Andre #163: God will not send us to hell, but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.
If it is truly a free choice don't you think that Hell would be an empty place? Would you be in the mood of "worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time" when your family members are tortured in hell for eternity - because they "chose" it and there simply was "no other option" for God?Box_{October 23, 2014
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correction: And in presenting empirical evidence, instead of just presenting my personal opinion as to how I think God ought to run the universe (as many on this thread have done with the conviction that their personal opinion represents nothing short of a scientific finding), I would like to point out that, aside from Box's questionable cite of Stevenson, I am, as far as I can remember, the only one to offer empirical evidence supporting my position on this thread. ,,, I have provided evidence that NDE's are real. I have provided several cites showing that the eastern NDE's are consistently negative, thus calling the whole reincarnation belief into question. I have also shown that evidence from physics itself has shown that two very different eternities are associated to the reality we currently live in. And most importantly, I cited the Shroud of Turin as evidence for Christ's claim that he rose from the dead thus confirming the primary claim of Christianity.,,, Thus I hold that my position is, i.e. that there is a hell and that Christ has 'saved' us from it, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, is the only position on this thread that is being supported empirically right now. Thus, although some may not personally like that hell exists, and argue the a loving God would never allow such a thing, I argue that, if we want to remain 'scientific', it is NOT our business to tell God how to run the universe, or to offer our personal opinions as to how we think God ought to run the universe, but it is our business, if we want to remain scientific, to interrogate the universe to see how God built the universe. And in that regards, again as far as evidence itself is concerned, I find my position much stronger than any opposing positions offered thus far on this thread. a few assorted notes: GILBERT NEWTON LEWIS: AMERICAN CHEMIST (1875-1946) “I have attempted to give you a glimpse…of what there may be of soul in chemistry. But it may have been in vain. Perchance the chemist is already damned and the guardian the blackest. But if the chemist has lost his soul, he will not have lost his courage and as he descends into the inferno, sees the rows of glowing furnaces and sniffs the homey fumes of brimstone, he will call out-: ‘Asmodeus, hand me a test-tube.’” Gilbert Newton Lewis Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole - January 2012 Excerpt: "Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to 'glow' – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-gear-picture-black-hole.html This following video brings the point personally home to each of us about the very destructive effects of entropy on our bodies: Aging Process – 80 years in 40 seconds – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk Verse and Music: Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Creed – One Last Breath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnkuBUAwfe0bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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