UD Announces General Amnesty

_{Barry Arrington

October 21, 2014

Intelligent Design}

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Today UD editors completely deleted both their “banned” list and their “comment moderation” list. Anyone in the world with access to the internet is currently free to comment on the site.

I (i.e., Barry Arrington) am almost certainly going to regret this decision and sooner rather than later. There were hundreds of trolls trapped in the “banned” and “moderation” queues. Frankly, images of this scene from Ghostbusters went through my mind as a pressed the “release” button.

Let’s hope it does not come to that.

Comments

"Instead of presenting scientific evidence that shows atheism to be true (or probable), the neo-atheists moralize about how much better the world would be if only atheism were true. Far from demonstrating that God does not exist, the neo-atheists merely demonstrate how earnestly they desire that God not exist.8 The God of Christianity is, in their view, the worst thing that could befall reality. According to Richard Dawkins, for instance, the Judeo-Christian God “is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”9 Dawkins’s obsession with the Christian God borders on the pathological. Yet, he underscores what has always been the main reason people reject God: they cannot believe that God is good. Eve, in the Garden of Eden, rejected God because she thought he had denied her some benefit that she should have, namely, the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. 10 Clearly, a God who denies creatures benefits that they think they deserve cannot be good. Indeed, a mark of our fallenness is that we fail to see the irony in thus faulting God. Should we not rather trust that the things God denies us are denied precisely for our benefit? Likewise, the neo-atheists find lots of faults with God, their list of denied benefits being much longer than Eve’s—no surprise here since they’ve had a lot longer to compile such a list!" William Dembski - pg. 10-11 http://designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf And in presenting empirical evidence, instead of just presenting my personal opinion as to how I think God ought to run the universe (as many on this thread have done with the conviction that their personal opinion represents nothing short of a scientific finding), I would like to point out that, aside from Box's questionable cite of Stevenson, I am, as far as I can remember, the only one to offer empirical evidence supporting my position on this thread. ,,, I have provided evidence that NDE's are real. I have provided several cites showing that the eastern NDE's are consistently negative, thus calling the whole reincarnation belief into question. I have also shown that evidence from physics itself has shown that two very different eternities are associated to the reality we currently live in. And most importantly, I cited the Shroud of Turin as evidence for Christ's claim that he rose from the dead thus confirming the primary claim of Christianity.,,, Thus I hold that my position is, i.e. that there is a hell and that Christ has 'saved' us from it, as far as empirical evidence is concerned, is the only position on this thread that is being supported empirically right now. Thus, although some may not personally like that hell exists, and argue the a loving God would never allow such a thing, I argue that, if we want to remain 'scientific', it is NOT our business to tell God how to run the universe, or to offer our personal opinions as to how we think God ought to run the universe, but it is our business, if we want to remain scientific, to interrogate the universe to see how God built the universe. And in that regards, again as far as evidence itself is concerned, I find my position much stronger than any opposing positions offered thus far on this thread. a few assorted notes: GILBERT NEWTON LEWIS: AMERICAN CHEMIST (1875-1946) “I have attempted to give you a glimpse…of what there may be of soul in chemistry. But it may have been in vain. Perchance the chemist is already damned and the guardian the blackest. But if the chemist has lost his soul, he will not have lost his courage and as he descends into the inferno, sees the rows of glowing furnaces and sniffs the homey fumes of brimstone, he will call out-: ‘Asmodeus, hand me a test-tube.’” Gilbert Newton Lewis Scientists gear up to take a picture of a black hole - January 2012 Excerpt: "Swirling around the black hole like water circling the drain in a bathtub, the matter compresses and the resulting friction turns it into plasma heated to a billion degrees or more, causing it to 'glow' – and radiate energy that we can detect here on Earth." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-01-scientists-gear-picture-black-hole.html This following video brings the point personally home to each of us about the very destructive effects of entropy on our bodies: Aging Process – 80 years in 40 seconds – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk Verse and Music: Romans 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Creed – One Last Breath http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnkuBUAwfe0bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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I was looking for another quote from Dembski this morning when I found this somewhat relevant passage,,
"Instead of presenting scientific evidence that shows atheism to be true (or probable), the neo-atheists moralize about how much better the world would be if only atheism were true. Far from demonstrating that God does not exist, the neo-atheists merely demonstrate how earnestly they desire that God not exist.8 The God of Christianity is, in their view, the worst thing that could befall reality. According to Richard Dawkins, for instance, the Judeo-Christian God “is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction. Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic-cleanser; a misogynistic homophobic racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”9 Dawkins’s obsession with the Christian God borders on the pathological. Yet, he underscores what has always been the main reason people reject God: they cannot believe that God is good. Eve, in the Garden of Eden, rejected God because she thought he had denied her some benefit that she should have, namely, the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. 10 Clearly, a God who denies creatures benefits that they think they deserve cannot be good. Indeed, a mark of our fallenness is that we fail to see the irony in thus faulting God. Should we not rather trust that the things God denies us are denied precisely for our benefit? Likewise, the neo-atheists find lots of faults with God, their list of denied benefits being much longer than Eve’s—no surprise here since they’ve had a lot longer to compile such a list!" William Dembski - pg. 10-11 http://designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf
bornagain77_{October 23, 2014
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Graham2 What is our purpose on earth? What is the reason we have been created? Do you know? You have been created to choose good from evil. If you choose evil you will get what you asked for nothing more nothing less. How is that God's fault if the choice is yours? Are you just angry with God for giving you free will? It sure looks like it from your posts...... But let me ask you where is this sense of justice about torture you are talking about coming from? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has an idea of what a straight line looks like....Andre_{October 23, 2014
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Who says God is going to torture anyone? I don't think you really understand; those that are cast into the pits of the hellfire are there because they chose to be there Graham2.Andre_{October 23, 2014
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Andre, Im not worried about anything, and I didn't mention blame, Im just amazed that you can take it seriously. If you were to replace 'God' with 'Donald Duck' in everything you have written, it would all sound exactly the same. Im curious about it all though, and how you (& others) think. Do you really believe God would torture a person forever ? What could someone possibly do to warrant that ? How can you condone that ?Graham2_{October 23, 2014
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Graham2 I have explained to you that if you honestly believe that Christianity is false and your intentions are good then you are in a state of honest error. Surely God, if there is a God won't punish a man for honest mistakes? But is saving your own skin and hoping that you won't be blamed for your actions all that you are worrying about?Andre_{October 23, 2014
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Graham2 Yes I do, and people choose it freely.Andre_{October 23, 2014
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Andre: Since you asked ... do you believe there is a Hell ? BA77 is quite sure there is. What do you think ?Graham2_{October 23, 2014
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Graham2 What are these strange things we say, can you expand on that? Give me a clear example so we can unpack it pleaseAndre_{October 22, 2014
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Graham2 I did not say anything about a dishonest belief, I spoke about honest error (ignorance) and dishonest error (not ignorance) perhaps it would be best if you wanted to have an honest discussion not to put words in my mouth or twist what I have to say? Is that reasonable to you?Andre_{October 22, 2014
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Andre: Im trying to understand your position. You (and other believers) say the strangest things, and Im trying to untangle it all.Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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Graham2 You have heard about Christianity right? If you've heard about it and have seriously considered it as not true you would not have asked your question. But you have asked the question which means you are by no means certain that Christianity is not true. Are you in a state of honest error or dishonest error Graham2? I can't read your secret heart Graham2 only you can.Andre_{October 22, 2014
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Im a bit bemused by the concept of a 'dishonest' belief. How is it possible to believe anything in a way that is 'dishonest' ? Can I simultaneously believe A when, secretly I know its B ? Is this a left-brain/right-brain thing ?Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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But I don't have to worry about God punishing the man that is in a state of dishonest error they will punish themselves......Andre_{October 22, 2014
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Graham If you reject Christ because you simply can't believe it you may be in a state of honest error, I told you yesterday I don't know your secret heart so I have to believe that your intentions are good. Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him" So the hope is that you are in a state of honest error and hopefully the mercy of God will remedy the situation, not just for you but also those whom you've influenced with your thoughts and actions. Do you think God will punish you for honest mistakes?Andre_{October 22, 2014
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Andre: If I simply don't believe any of that stuff, would I be considered to have rejected Christ’s sacrifice ?Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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CS Lewis understood divine justice perfectly “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”Andre_{October 22, 2014
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What is it called when we send our self to Hell? Divine Justice! Divine justice holds all beings to order and no factor can impose upon them and change its design. As far as immaterial things are concerned, this is how things are. For rational beings though and particularly man, the divine justice is totally applied but for some reason of divine ‘providence’, it is accomplished in various ways in accordance with each man’s interest.Andre_{October 22, 2014
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God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell, but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.Andre_{October 22, 2014
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Dionisio: You seem to have a strange way of interrogating people. Do you then give them some sort of score ? Perhaps Ive been entered in your class list with a grade next to my name. Also, To a non-believer, you have no idea how creepy your stuff sounds. Spending all eternity 'basking in Gods glory' sounds like living in North Korea. And to what purpose ? You god-botherers pester the heathens about a life without purpose, but what is the purpose of heaven ? To praise God from morning till night ? Is that something to look forward to ? Yech.Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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159 Graham2 Did you read post 158? Did you understand it well?Dionisio_{October 22, 2014
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154 Turbokid If you don't like answering simple questions, for whatever reasons, just say so and quit. Remember most discussions threads in this site are visited by more lurkers than commenters. We want the lurkers to read what is being said here and come to their own conclusions. If someone is not willing to go through the drill, because the questioning style is uncomfortable, that's fine, just quit the discussion. The lurkers still will see it. I really don't have much spare time for these discussions. My main interest in any discussion is to learn from what others know and share what I know. But that must be done in a mutually respectful manner. Both parties engaged in the discussion must be interested in learning, sharing, discovering, in a friendly communication, exchanging ideas, sharing experiences, correcting each other when necessary. The mutual goal should be finding the truth about the discussed subject. That doesn't seem to be the case in a number of discussions I've seen here. I don't like to get involved in senseless arguments that lead nowhere, because they are between two irreconcilable worldview positions. I'd rather spend time studying some of the material I have gathered in the 'third way' thread. Time is priceless. Many things can be purchased with VISA or MasterCard, but we can't buy time. Once it's gone, it's gone. I like to ask simple questions so I can really understand what the other person knows and also see their true motives. Any person who is genuinely interested in sharing and learning, will be willing to adjust to any style or communication protocol, or at least try hard to adjust or to reach a compromise, giving serious reasons for the desire to change. Sometimes I may answer questions with related questions, so I can make sure I understand the original question before I try to answer it as well as I can. On top of all the above, I have other major reasons to ask many simple questions during discussions: my reading comprehension is poor, my communication skills are almost nonexistent, my IQ score is about the same as my age, but changing in the opposite direction, English is not my first language. My wife doesn't like it when I reveal this, because it might hurt my possibilities of getting a new job. However, most probably she won't read what I wrote here, because she doesn't care much about reading anything in this blog. Also, I'm not looking for a new job at this point. I'm playing with 4D interactive animation software development and trying to learn about certain aspects of cell fate specification, determination, differentiation, migration mechanisms + a little of Neuroscience. This is not easy for me, so it consumes a significant part of my time.Dionisio_{October 22, 2014
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Dionisio: OK, give me a B- on that, Im not strong on the god stuff. Do you believe in Hell ? That is, do you share BA77s view that us heathens will be tormented forever ?Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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155 Graham2 No, not exactly. Apparently you did not understand it well. But since you're tired of my simple questions, you may quit our discussion, as others have done before. Anyway, it doesn't look as though you're really interested in this discussion, but maybe that's a distorted perception. In case you still want to continue our discussion, my next questions are: What is the meaning of grace in the expression 'age of grace'? Whose grace? To whom? What's the benefit of having God's grace in this current age? The benefit to Christians and to non Christians? If grace is associated with the current age, will it end with this age? God allows certain things to happen, and does not allow other things to happen. All according to His sovereign will. In the age to come, God will not restrain anything. Those souls eternally in God's presence will have no restrain to do anything they want, which will be worshiping Him and enjoying His glory constantly without the limitation of time. Those souls who by their own choice will remain apart from God forever, will have no restrain to do anything they want to - i.e. no rules. Therefore, everyone will setup their own rules and standards. Any idea what that will look like? Not exactly. However, to the followers of Christ, this world is the closest we will be to experiencing a weak sneak preview of what that Godlessness will look like. Definitely repulsive. Could that be what they call 'hell'?Dionisio_{October 22, 2014
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Box: not to me he wont. I like the suggestion above that Barry was losing add revenue. The place was certainly becoming an incestuous echo chamber.Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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On topic: Maybe on His return Christ announces general amnesty?Box_{October 22, 2014
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Dionisio: Im tiring of the game, but to answer your question: the 'age of grace' seems to refer to a period that will end when Christ returns. In the meantime we had better be careful to be good or we wont make it into heaven. Is that it ?Graham2_{October 22, 2014
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Dionisio, why don't you just say what you think. Asking questions like they are tests of something is tedious. Its' not that people can't stand simple questions or are scared of something. It's more likely they can't be bothered playing a game and would rather just have a conversation.Turbokid_{October 22, 2014
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BA77 #151, you may be overreacting, Wiki states that Stevenson "tried L.S.D" in the 1950s - not that he was a hallucinating hard-core drug addict all of his life.Box_{October 22, 2014
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150 Graham2 Ok, if you've heard that expression before, and even know what it means, then my next question obviously is: What does it mean? Please, say it with your own words, don't paste someone else's explanation. I'm interested in knowing what you know, not what someone else knows. Thank you.Dionisio_{October 22, 2014
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