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UD Pro-Darwinism essay challenge unanswered a year later, I: Let’s get the essence of design theory as a scientific, inductive inference straight

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Today marks a full year since I issued an open challenge to Darwinists to ground their theory and its OOL extension and root, in light of actually observed capabilities of blind watchmaker mechanisms of chance and necessity through an essay I would host here at UD. The pivot of the challenge is the modern version of the very first Icon of Evolution, Darwin’s Tree of Life (which in an incomplete form is the ONLY image in original editions of Origin of Species), here typified by a case from the Smithsonian:

Darwin-ToL-Smithsonian400
Darwinist Tree of Life showing the root, OOL, from the Smithsonian

 

I first did so in an exchange thread, specifically responding to Jerad, then headlined it some days later. In lieu of prompt serious replies, I set up Wikipedia articles in the empty chair, then answered the usual polarising dismissals here and then also a suggestion that Talk Origins’ 29 evidences presentation by Theobald provided an adequate answer.

As is obvious from the headline, a full year later, there still is no robust answer from the advocates of evolutionary materialism.

First, let me refresh memories on the challenge: cf APPENDIX below

The main focus here, however is to begin by clearing the air after the smoke of many burning strawmen, on the core of the scientific design inference claim. A good way to do this is the following clip from a post in the ongoing charitableness debate:

In terms of the essence of the design theory view, it is that the deep past of origins cannot be directly observed so we must study its traces, and infer explanatory models on causal factors shown to produce consequences directly comparable to the traces. Thus such features, where characteristic of a cause, are an empirically reliable sign. And while inductive reasoning on signs is always provisional, it can be highly reliable.

Mechanical necessity such as F = ma, gives rise to low contingency natural regularities that are often reduced to laws. Chance processes yield high contingency outcomes that may follow relevant statistical distribution models such as the normal curve. Design will often be highly contingent also, but will frequently yield patterns such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information (such as the text string in this post) [FSCO/I]  that are maximally implausible on chance but are on billions of cases observed a reliable sign of design.

No great mystery, and directly empirically testable, just show blind chance and mechanical necessity producing FSCO/I.

Only, that has not happened, many attempts notwithstanding.

So, we have good reason to rule out mechanical necessity if we see high contingency of outcomes under similar starting conditions, and chance if we see something utterly implausible by chance. This being done on a per aspect basis for an object, process, phenomenon, etc.

Nothing intrinsically strange or hard to follow, or in breach of canons of inductive, scientific reasoning.

And certainly no reference to the Nicene Creed or the Chicago declaration on inerrancy etc. No, quote Bible and try to guide science based on interpretation thereof. That is, not inherently religious.

The problem is, Darwinists nailed their flag to the mast 150 years ago, but over the past 60 years it has become plain that the world of life is chock full of signs of design, from DNA on up.

And the further problem over the same 60 years, is that the observed cosmos turns out to give every indication of being fine tuned in many ways that facilitate C chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life.

So, we are now in a position to further follow up on the matters at stake, anon. END

________________

APPENDIX:

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here –  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right . . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

Comments
AF, I actually marked up beyond that point, but it was already surplus to needs. The most horrific thing about this -- and it reminds me uncomfortably of propaganda stirred hysterias I remember all too vividly -- is that a lot of the people spewing the slanders believe them to be facts. When that includes this from the OP's end, that should give all sensible people serious pause:
If the odd nice, deluded, and ignorant but honest creationist is offended by a lack of charity, that is tough as far as I am concerned. Obliviousness is no excuse for assisting the enemies of humanity.
Dr Dawkins, behold the fruit of your toxic talking point that those who disagree with you are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. Hate stirred by slander and resulting hate speech taken as justified commentary against "enemies of humanity" -- i.e. design supporters equated to Creationistss and Christians, then taken to be part of a right wing theocratic totalitarian conspiracy to treasonously subvert our civilisation. Hate and hate speech, pure and simple. All duly hosted at TSZ and presented to the naive public as innocent dialogue and fair comment on facts. Time to wake up to the matches that are being played with. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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Jerad, do you realise how much enabling behaviour for what I have had to archive, you have put up? Please, think again. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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6) Nobody has proposed that complicated biological systems form by purely random combination. Correct?
As far as I know the process is random. Are certain nucleotides more susceptible to mutation than others? Do you have information that it is not? And if you do then what is the probability distribution of biological formation especially changes in the genome for the coding of new proteins. And why would a different distribution change anything. In layman's language. No jargon or formulas.jerry
September 26, 2013
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It’s all microevolution, and it’s all “trivial” speciation, but as the lineages continue, the diverge further and further apart, and resemble each other less and less.
There is no evidence that the process you describe leads to anything of consequence. No one is saying the process does not operate but no one has shown it leads anywhere. If so, give examples. Provide evidence not speculation or wishful thinking. I have never seen anyone who has done so in all that I have read or seen. If it exist then why don't supporters of this approach provide examples/evidence. One can only conclude it does not exist. And if the evidence does not exist with all this investigation then a logical conclusion is that it probably never happened. As I said I find the most interesting thing about this debate is the behavior of the individuals in it.jerry
September 26, 2013
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Do not besmirch the good word “dialogue” with what I have had to archive. madam, you have some serious explaining to do.
I see you only got to page 8 of that thread with your annotations. Is that as far as you could get before an attack of the vapours or is the rest not so bad as to be worthy of opprobrium?Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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KF, I have posted a link to your pdf here.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Ooops, mucked up some formatting again. I don't seem to be getting a preview like I used to. My apologies.Jerad
September 26, 2013
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I keep highlighting the documented fact of ruthless agitprop. I keep pointing out that the behaviour of too many of those who are more genteel unfortunately reflects the good — enabling — cop side of a notorious manipulation tactic. That happens when such go along with evil on their side and either pretend it is not there, or collaborate with rather than shun it. I point out abuse of administrative systems to besmirch, penalise, bust careers. I point out unjust court rulings that ignore plain and documented facts, making mistake riddled declarations beyond competence by virtue of copying twisted submissions by agit prop groups — gross errors and falsities and all. I even point out outing to enable such attacks, and threats against uninvolved family, including MY OWN CHILDREN.
I would never make threats against you or your family nor do I condone such behaviour. I fail to see what you think I can or should do about the other behaviour you find so objectionable. I am here, commenting on this forum on my own. I have no affiliation or association with any of the groups or blogs you frequently mention. Do I not have the right to speak up for what I think is verified and solid science? You have the right to cast aspersions on my motives but it doesn't make your inference correct. And you are casting aspersions by making it look like I've ignored your requests to stop enabling. Without saying what it is I should do exactly.
Do you see what you are enabling, now, by your pretence that something is wrong with shining a spotlight on wrong?
Shine a spotlight all you wish. But spotlight the actual wrongs you perceive NOT those who are innocent. I get criticised routinely here at UD. I've been called brain dead, a moron, a shill and lots of other defamatory terms. Evolutionary theory is almost always criticised and put down and said to be so much fairy tales and made up stuff. Some people's comments here mostly consist of ridiculing evolutionary theory. How much of a spotlight do you direct towards this blog? Are you absolutely sure there isn't a double standard? Do you think you just might give more leeway to those with whom you agree?
But moreso, you full well know that I have, at length addressed the merits, and would much prefer to have a discussion on that basis.
Then why do you keep bringing up with me my enabling behaviour when I've done nothing of the sort?
But, I am not going to walk into a vicious back alley knife fight armed only with seminar briefing notes expecting a reasoned discussion with those who have chosen to use vicious tactics.
What does this have to do with me?
How dare you highlight what the vicious have done and the fact that the genteel have provided an allegedly civil platform that enables it is yet another resort to blaming the victim.
Me? How dare I? How did I highlight what other people have done? You keep bringing it up! I don't even know what you're talking about most of the time. Do you want me to stop answering your posts?
And, you don’t want me to point out some of the history behind that tactic. Just remember, I am a descendant of slaves. What does that have to do with discussing the merits of evolutionary theory and ID? You know very little about me and my background.
It is time that you and your ilk faced what you have been doing and cleaned up your act.
My ilk? You really don't seem to believe that someone can disagree with you without having some hidden agenda. You also seem to want to stifle your 'opponents' whilst giving free reign (almost) to your supporters. ID supporters on this forum are encouraged to make fun of and ridicule evolutionary theory and its supporters. It happens to me ALL THE TIME. And I see precious few attempts to moderate such behaviour except to keep on lid on actual profanity.
On the subject of, oh there are ever so many who think in a different way, that is no problem. No majority vote, even of the distinguished and august has ever by itself determined the truth of a matter. Truth is that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not, that it is not. Appeals to authority and alleged consensus have nothing to do with it. And in science, the warrant for inductive claims is inherently provisional, subject to correction. There is a long history of the vast majority being wrong.
I was merely pointing out that a lot of people have done a lot of work which has been vetted by generations of others in the same field. More work is being done everyday. And the vast majority of those doing that work and the results they've established run counter to your assertions.
Namely, there are billions of observed cases of origin of FSCO/I. In every one of them — and this is backed up by the needle in the haystack search challenge and analysis — the cause is design. Thus, we are fully entitled to take FSCO?I as a reliable sign of design. Codes, data structures using codes. Algorithms in such data structures and associated execution machines are classic examples, routinely observed by the billion all around us, just consider the cell phone.
I've agreed, there are lots and lots of examples of non-living objects which were designed, which we know who designed them, we know the equipment and the techniques used. But even inanimate objects are not created via an exhaustive search through some vast configuration space.
It turns out that from DNA upwards, cell based life is chock full of exactly these signs of design.
And I think that could have come about via natural processes.
And, as has been brought out above, this directly speaks to both OOL and OOBP.
But you can't say how or when. Or what the origin of life on earth looked like. You've explained nothing even if I grant you design.
Regardless of what the a priori materialist establishment thinks.
You're lucky. You live in a time and a place where your opinions are not censored. You have the right to disagree with a scientific consensus. You can post here and on your own blog without being visited by some authority figures. You live in a country (amongst others) with laws that protect your rights and NO ONE is trying to take those rights away from you. No matter what you think.
Jerad
September 26, 2013
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EL: Do not besmirch the good word "dialogue" with what I have had to archive. madam, you have some serious explaining to do. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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kairosfocus,#184:
I fully expect that within months you or others of your ilk will pretend again that you can dismiss FSCO/I as you have tried again above.
This month marks the 15th anniversary of the publication of The Design Inference, Dembski's first public exposition of his "specified complexity", aka CSI, concept. Critics have been challenging his claims ever since then, and I submit that the issues are still not resolved. Recently, for example, we have Lizzie's "EleP(T|H)ant" posts, highlighting the fact that CSI is defined in terms of a null hypothesis and we can't even begin to estimate it for the null hypothesis of Darwinian evolution. I'll try to state this issue as explicitly as I can with regards to FSCO/I, and you can tell me where you think I'm going wrong: 1) At your always linked, you introduce a simplified measure of the degree of complexity, defined simply as "the quantity of bits to store the relevant information". 2) This seems to refere to a fixed-length coding, so if the sample space is size |Ω|, then the degree of complexity of any given outcome is log2(|Ω|) bits. Is this correct? 3) If so, then this degree of complexity is quantitatively equivalent to P(T|H) where H is a hypothesis characterized by an equiprobable distribution over Ω. Correct? 4) Given a large amount of CSI or FSCO/I under a given null hypothesis, the most we can infer is that that particular hypothesis is wrong. Still correct? 5) Therefore, your simplified FSCO/I measure can, at best, eliminate null hypotheses characterized by equiprobable distributions. Right? 6) Nobody has proposed that complicated biological systems form by purely random combination. Correct? 7) Therefore, with regards to biology, your simplified FSCO/I measure can only eliminate a hypothesis that is already universally rejected anyway. Is that right? If you can point out exactly where I have gone wrong, I would appreciate it. If you can do so without editorializing, moralizing, or expressing indignation and/or outrage, I would appreciate it even more.R0bb
September 26, 2013
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KF
EL, I have responded to your demand at 207 by taking it as informal permission to post the annotated archived thread which documents my reasons for saying that you are hosting a slander and hate fest.
You have my permission to post anything you like from my blog, and indeed I will post a link to your annotated version at TSZ. As I keep saying - I am not afraid of dialogue, nor will I suppress it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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kairosfocus,#184:
FSCO/I — short for functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information — is indeed my personal acronym to summarise a mouthful. That absolutely is immaterial to its substance or the roots in Wicken and Orgel in the 70?s, taken up by Thaxton et al in the 80?s, and quantified in the 90?s onwards by Dembski then reduced to a simple form here at UD a couple of years ago.
If you have evidence that Wicken and Orgel's usage of the term "complexity" is the same as Dembski's in the context of "specified complexity", I'd be interested to see it.
FYI, this book, NFL, was a revised form of a PhD thesis and was itself peer reviewed. The above was thus peer reviewed TWICE.
You're probably think of The Design Inference, which was based on Dembski's thesis for his PhD in philosopy. As far as I know, NFL, including the part you quoted, has never been subject to any formal peer review.R0bb
September 26, 2013
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Oops: The strongest objections are to the sort of right-wing fundamentalist groups that seem to want to gain political control in the US.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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ID/ Creationists/ Theists/ Christians as enemies of humanity
You do see things in very black-and-white terms, KF. I doubt any poster at TSZ would characterize all Christians as enemies of humanity. The strongest objectors to the sort of right-wing fundamentalist groups that seem to want to gain political control in the US. They oppose their ideas and their methods. I had a look at your annotated thread. Can't for the life of me see why certain phrases upset you so much. Nobody is trying to forcibly prevent you following your Christian beliefs per se.But if you want to impose a particular belief on others or force them to avoid a particular lifestyle just because you don't like it (homosexuality, for instance) then you can expect to be opposed. Freedom of thought and respect for others has to be reciprocal. I'd take you more seriously if I thought your views on religion and politics had any influence beyond your doorstep. Thankfully, this does not appear to be happening.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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...but 20 years later, the son of the founder failed to throw out the subversives of his time, and Jamaica paid a terrible and yet lingering price.
Off-topic but as you raised it... Are you referring to Michael Manley? Do you blame him personally for the political violence that occurred in the 1970s? What lingers?Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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EL, I have responded to your demand at 207 by taking it as informal permission to post the annotated archived thread which documents my reasons for saying that you are hosting a slander and hate fest. In addition, it links to onward resources that give first level responses to the main false assertions that have plainly been taken for fact and are motivating outright declared enmity -- of course projected unto ID/ Creationists/ Theists/ Christians as enemies of humanity, as I have also duly annotated. Do you begin to understand what you are hosting? KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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How come the fossil record doesn’t show this type of gradual micro evolution? The species are distinct in the fossil record…and there are almost as many missing links as there are species.
The fossil record is a collection of snapshots in time. The chances of getting fossilized rather than decaying or being scavenged are slim and then the fossil has to be found. Hence the fossil record might be compared to a jigsaw with most of the pieces missing and no picture on the box lid. But we keep finding new pieces and the overall picture fits the hypothesis of increasing diversity and common descent, with five major extinction events such as the Permian-Triassic extinction, sometimes referred to as "the Great Dying". What is it in the fossil record that makes you think that evolution was not gradual?
Also, at some point you are going to need new types of genes to emerge for different morphological organs and functions…Where is the “evidence” that this can even occur? Will you admit that there is a difference between a change in the morphology of a bird beak and slowly mutating for something like an eyeball?
In multicellular organisms, there are no genes for body plans or organs. The phenotype emerges by cell growth and differentiation. Regulator genes, the HOX gene family, are found across animals, plants and fungi. The growth of sheets of cells and differentiation into tissue types is influenced by expression of a cascade of promoters and switches all following local rules. In this way eyes develop in the embryo; an exercise in topology. There is variation in the result (some of need glasses)giving thee raw material for natural selection to work on.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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If it is one you quote as:
And at what point is it KF that you expect to march Alan around the camps? When your religious war is won and the immoral atheists defeated? I’d go on but I’m afraid I may say some things that would not be compatible with the general purpose of the thread or indeed civility. I would like to note however that both the Nazis and KF think that homosexuals are immoral and/or deviants. So draw your own conclusion as to who’ll be marching who round what camp if they get their way.
As you know full well, the post that OMagain refers to was a post by you comparing Alan Fox to Germans who had to be "marched round the camps" to see what they had "enabled". He rightly objected to that characterisation of Alan. He also commented that both you, and the Nazis, consider[ed] that homosexuality immoral and deviant. In other words, exactly as you regularly do, he drew attention to what he saw possible consequences of certain views. And indeed, many gay people feel seriously frightened, with cause, by the anti-gay rhetoric of many religious movements. He is entitled to express that view, just as you are entitled to express the view that I am running some kind of "front" organisation for some nefarious Marxist cabal aimed at eliminating the religious from the world, and to compare me to Goebbels. I think you are quite wrong, but I defend your right to express these views, just as I defend OMagain's. And I will not suppress them because you disagree, any more than I will demand that Barry suppresses your outrageous slurs on my motivation, integrity, and principles.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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EL, You know as well as I do, even better the overlaps in people, attitudes, culture and content, with TSZ serving as a more genteel front, which by and large does not have the grossest abusive behaviour. You know full well that something that may well start out and an idealistic effort, if not properly policed [historically, this actually includes churches, charities and the like] can be taken over by ruthless agit prop operators using the notorious methods of Alinsky and others. As in, you are of age to know that long, sad history. I am looking at the results, and I am calling the result what I know from having had to deal with this process live on the ground. Just as a historical example in my bones, the PNP of the 1950's threw out four pivotal communist infiltrators, but 20 years later, the son of the founder failed to throw out the subversives of his time, and Jamaica paid a terrible and yet lingering price. So did Grenada, by extension of what was going on in Jamaica. And all along there were ever so many who were going along as good cops. My uni campus was a significant place in that process right up until communism collapsed as a global phenomenon and the Russian state sent a delegation to publicly apologise to Jamaica for what had been done to us at horrific cost. In light of that sort of background, I can say freely that TSZ, if it was set up for idealistic reasons, has long since been subverted through failure to police itself effectively. The result is the hate and slander fests with grotesque conspiracy stories that we see. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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KF:
I have read and archived the post you are hosting that makes grotesque accusations connected to a conspiracy theory that has long since been exposed as blatantly false. I duly noted in that post discussion thread how a false accusation of fraud stood effectively unopposed.
I do not know what post you are talking about, and the post of mine you link to in the post of yours you link to makes no such accusation. Support your own accusation or withdraw it. +++++++++++ EL, just stop the pretence, you full well know the Sept 12, 2013 Dave Hooke thread in which the OP lays out grotesque conspiracy narratives and in which there is a false accusation of fraud in the comments. Since you demand that I document why I am saying that you are hosting a slander fest, I take this as an informal permission to put up my archive for examination, here. Read, examine the onward linked documentation, and then explain to us why you have tolerated such behaviour on your blog. KFElizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Optimus:
Debatable – It’s possible to take any set of objects and arrange them in a hierarchical fashion based on similarity. Such an arrangement, though, says nothing meaningful about why said objects possess such similarity and cannot demonstrate common ancestry.
This is incorrect. It's a bit like saying that it's possible to take any scatter plot and draw a line through them based on eyeballing the data points. Phylogenetics doesn't work like that, any more than correlation works like that. It tests tree fits against the null hypothesis of no tree and or an alternative tree. If the analysis returned many trees with similar fits, the best tree would not be better than any other tree under the null, and so you would reject "tree". And given that the results deliver "tree" with extremely low probability under the null, that finding demands explanation. Common descent is one possible explanation, and predicts that organisms with the features indicated by their position on the tree will be found in that order in the fossil record. Which is confirmed by data. So many ID supporters hugely underestimate the amount of hard quantitative science that goes into a scientific conclusion. And when referred to papers, respond "literature bluff!" Science is Hard Work. Scientist don't sit around looking at data and making up stories - "just so stories" as you guys like to call them. Yes, they "make up stories" but those stories are worthless unless they have a rigorously tested statistical fit to the data and predict new data And nor do they sit around thinking up ways to exclude the Divine Foot. They don't have to. Until someone comes up with a predictive Divine Foot model, there is nothing even at the door. And when they do - fine. But by definition, that Foot will no longer be very Divine - it will be a predictive model, like any other, and thus constrained. It would be very easy to test the hypothesis that wind sprites are responsible for dust devils. It is impossible to test the hypothesis that an omnipotent deity is responsible for anything at all.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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EL:
Why not read my posts?
EL, FYI -- and as you full well know, I have read your post in which you tried to deny hosting a smear by invidious association with Nazism. I have read and archived the post you are hosting that makes grotesque accusations connected to a conspiracy theory that has long since been exposed as blatantly false. I duly noted in that post discussion thread how a false accusation of fraud stood effectively unopposed. Your pretence at innocence is wearing rather thin. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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Optimus:
Did you ever amend that snarky post about Meyer not knowing the singular form of phylum? It’s all over the book. That suggests to me that you’re not reading it very carefully. Is that perhaps because you already know you won’t like its conclusion?
No, it merely reflected the fact that when I added the additional figure to my post, in which it is wrong, I temporarily forgot that Meyer had explicitly explained plural and singular earlier in the book. And yes, I readily conceded my error, in comments, and corrected it in the text. I still await any response from any IDist about the howler.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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There is no "front organisation". TSZ is my hobby blog. I have no connection with AtBC apart from occasionally posting there. There is no "knife fight". There is an internet discussion. Please try to find some perspective on this KF.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 26, 2013
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Did you ever amend that snarky post about Meyer not knowing the singular form of phylum?
Yes, she has:
I’d have expected an urbane, Cambridge-educated guy like Meyer to know the [ETA: spot the erroneous] singular of “phyla” but that’s minor compared to his crashing howler of an attempt to demonstrate what the term means. ETA:3 Note: As Mung has pointed out, Meyer shows that he does know the singular of “phyla”, he just doesn’t get it correct it in this particular diagram. However, as I have said elsewhere (and above), this error is minor compared with the howler of including only a group of of descendents in his circled “phyla”, not the whole branch, which as I’ve said, undermines his entire argument.
linkAlan Fox
September 26, 2013
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Regardless of what the a priori materialist establishment thinks.
Or whether someone writes a 6,000 word essay! I am sure you will manage to carry on regardless of everything that you cannot fit into your personal paradigm.Alan Fox
September 26, 2013
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Jerad:
KF you keep referring to issues that have nothing to do with the merits of the arguments. You keep trying to whip up opposition to a ‘slander fest’ and a culture war. You keep accusing people of enabling abusive behaviour.
I keep highlighting the documented fact of ruthless agitprop. I keep pointing out that the behaviour of too many of those who are more genteel unfortunately reflects the good -- enabling -- cop side of a notorious manipulation tactic. That happens when such go along with evil on their side and either pretend it is not there, or collaborate with rather than shun it. I point out abuse of administrative systems to besmirch, penalise, bust careers. I point out unjust court rulings that ignore plain and documented facts, making mistake riddled declarations beyond competence by virtue of copying twisted submissions by agit prop groups -- gross errors and falsities and all. I even point out outing to enable such attacks, and threats against uninvolved family, including MY OWN CHILDREN. Do you see what you are enabling, now, by your pretence that something is wrong with shining a spotlight on wrong? But moreso, you full well know that I have, at length addressed the merits, and would much prefer to have a discussion on that basis. But, I am not going to walk into a vicious back alley knife fight armed only with seminar briefing notes expecting a reasoned discussion with those who have chosen to use vicious tactics. How dare you highlight what the vicious have done and the fact that the genteel have provided an allegedly civil platform that enables it is yet another resort to blaming the victim. And, you don't want me to point out some of the history behind that tactic. Just remember, I am a descendant of slaves. It is time that you and your ilk faced what you have been doing and cleaned up your act. On the subject of, oh there are ever so many who think in a different way, that is no problem. No majority vote, even of the distinguished and august has ever by itself determined the truth of a matter. Truth is that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not, that it is not. Appeals to authority and alleged consensus have nothing to do with it. And in science, the warrant for inductive claims is inherently provisional, subject to correction. There is a long history of the vast majority being wrong. So, it comes right back to the pivotal point. Namely, there are billions of observed cases of origin of FSCO/I. In every one of them -- and this is backed up by the needle in the haystack search challenge and analysis -- the cause is design. Thus, we are fully entitled to take FSCO?I as a reliable sign of design. Codes, data structures using codes. Algorithms in such data structures and associated execution machines are classic examples, routinely observed by the billion all around us, just consider the cell phone. It turns out that from DNA upwards, cell based life is chock full of exactly these signs of design. And, as has been brought out above, this directly speaks to both OOL and OOBP. Regardless of what the a priori materialist establishment thinks. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2013
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@193 Elizabeth Liddle writes:
The theory is (whether you accept it or not) that ALL speciation events start off “trivial”, but that as time goes by, and the two lineages interbreed less and less, and thus adapt differentially and drift apart, the difference between them becomes greater and greater, and each lineages subdivides – speciates – again “trivially” over and over, to generate, over time, the nested hierarchies that we observe: phyla, classes, orders, genera, etc. But ALL start off as “trivial” subdivisions of a single population that at first resemble each other as closely as a couple of populations of finches on two neighbouring islands.
How come the fossil record doesn't show this type of gradual micro evolution? The species are distinct in the fossil record...and there are almost as many missing links as there are species. Also, at some point you are going to need new types of genes to emerge for different morphological organs and functions...Where is the "evidence" that this can even occur? Will you admit that there is a difference between a change in the morphology of a bird beak and slowly mutating for something like an eyeball?Breckmin
September 25, 2013
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BTW, EL Did you ever amend that snarky post about Meyer not knowing the singular form of phylum? It's all over the book. That suggests to me that you're not reading it very carefully. Is that perhaps because you already know you won't like its conclusion?Optimus
September 25, 2013
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EL @ 189
Genetic variants produce phenotypic variants. check. Phenotypic variants that reproduce better leave more copies of their genetic sequences in the population. check.
True - though irrelevant to the grander claims of evolutionary theory.
Phylogenetic analyses of morphological features form a tree with high statistical significance indicative of common ancestry. check
Debatable - It's possible to take any set of objects and arrange them in a hierarchical fashion based on similarity. Such an arrangement, though, says nothing meaningful about why said objects possess such similarity and cannot demonstrate common ancestry.
Phylogenies based on genetics match phylogenies based on morphological features. check.
Also debatable - Meyer's new book has an excellent consideration of the conflicts between molecular and morphological phylogenies (as well as amongst molecular phylogenies themselves). Here's a reference you may be familiar with: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22891620
This postulated mechanism makes predictions that have been confirmed by data. check.
But its causal adequacy to accomplish what its supposed to do is hardly established, and even a flawed model may make some valid predictions (just as a flawed syllogism may still have a valid conclusion).Optimus
September 25, 2013
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