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Update on Materialism

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In my previous post, I demonstrated that materialism refutes itself because the very act of affirming belief in materialism depends on a denial of materialism. Why? Because purely physical things do not exhibit “intentionality” (the “aboutness” between believer and that which is believed). A liver cannot have any relationship to a proposition. So, for example, it would be absurd to say “my liver believes materialism is true.” And, of course, the problem for the materialist is that materialism claims that brains and livers are essentially the same in that they are purely physical.

Here is the key point: If the amalgamation of chemicals called “liver” and the amalgamation of chemicals called “brain,” are essentially the same, the materialist cannot logically say one exhibits intentionality and the other does not. Yet they do that very thing when they say they believe materialism is true. That is why the very act of affirming materialism refutes materialism. It is a self-referentially incoherent belief system.

Our materialist friends were not able to defeat this logic (it is truly unassailable), but they did jump into the comments with various responses. Here are some examples:

Seversky: “Show us an immaterial or disembodied consciousness and you may have a case” This is a classic red herring. I am not required to show that dualism is true to show that materialism is false. Materialism is false whether or not some other proposition is true.

PyrrhoManiac1: “Naturalists would insist that brains and livers have different biological functions”  Here we have equivocation laced with strawman. First, Pyrrho equivocates on the word “difference.” I said that under materialism a brain and a liver are not ESSENTIALLY different. Pyrrho asserts that a brain and a liver are FUNCTIONALLY different. And then he “refutes” my argument by pretending I meant the latter when I clearly meant the former. Nope. Pyrrho, no one disputes that a brain and a liver have different functions. Do you really think I am too stupid to understand that? And do you really dispute that under materialism there is no essential difference between a brain and a liver in that they are both reducible to nothing more than their chemical constituents? If you do, you do not understand materialism, because that is the whole point of materialism. Fail. Pyrrho goes on to blah blah blah about cybernetics and thermodynamic equilibrium. That discussion is not remotely responsive to the question. Double fail.

ChuckDarwin: “at some point you will have to come up with a testable alternative model to explain behavior, including ‘beliefs.’” Nope. If my goal is to refute materialism on its own terms all I have to do is show that materialism is self-referentially incoherent, which I have done. Again, I do not have to show some other proposition is true for materialism to be false.

PyrrhoManiac1 again: This time he asserts that I am caricaturizing materialism when I say it posits that the liver and the brain are “nothing but” their material constituents. Good grief. This is just silly. Not only is Pyrrho wrong, but also, again, the WHOLE POINT of materialism is that everything, including livers and brains, is ultimately reducible to nothing but its physical constituents. Not just a fail but a catastrophic fail.

Comments
BA, after you smacked down Sev about changing the subject, he's gotten very quiet. One can hope you got through to him. But who are we kidding? :(AnimatedDust
February 7, 2023
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BA Assume what you want. In fact, assume arguendo that you are right. Without addressing my point, your "refutation" of materialism gets you nothing.....chuckdarwin
February 7, 2023
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Classic. Pyrrho goes full on “insane denial.” Deny a well understood concept. In the face of correction deny, deny, deny, deny. See here for other examples of insane denial. Don’t they ever get tired of the lies? I know the answer to that question. I have been debating this topic for nearly 20 years. And, no, they never tire. Truth be damned. The narrative must be maintained. Pyrrho, you have nothing to add to the discussion. Move along.
It's a perfectly legitimate question. There's more than one concept of essence, and more than one theory of what essences are. I mean, there isn't even that much agreement between Plato and Aristotle, and philosophers have been arguing about these issues for thousands of years. But, perhaps you're more interested in winning a contrived debate than you are in having a philosophical conversation -- in which case I am more than happy to move along.PyrrhoManiac1
February 7, 2023
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Chuck, Once again, I assume you have nothing to refute the OP. Yes, I understand you want to change the subject. No.Barry Arrington
February 7, 2023
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PyrrhoManiac1
For you, all the work is being done by the word “essential”. I certainly don’t know what you mean by that
Classic. Pyrrho goes full on "insane denial." Deny a well understood concept. In the face of correction deny, deny, deny, deny. See here for other examples of insane denial. Don't they ever get tired of the lies? I know the answer to that question. I have been debating this topic for nearly 20 years. And, no, they never tire. Truth be damned. The narrative must be maintained. Pyrrho, you have nothing to add to the discussion. Move along.Barry Arrington
February 7, 2023
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ChuckDarwin: “at some point you will have to come up with a testable alternative model to explain behavior, including ‘beliefs.’” Nope. If my goal is to refute materialism on its own terms all I have to do is show that materialism is self-referentially incoherent, which I have done. Again, I do not have to show some other proposition is true for materialism to be false.
I should have been clearer in my original post. My apologies. As the saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum, thus at some point, ideally sooner than later, someone within the community of ID proponents will have to come up with a testable alternative to materialism to explain sentient behavior, including "beliefs" and "intentionality." Failure to do so will leave ID to die on the vine, if it hasn't already.chuckdarwin
February 7, 2023
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I said that under materialism a brain and a liver are not ESSENTIALLY different. Pyrrho asserts that a brain and a liver are FUNCTIONALLY different. And then he “refutes” my argument by pretending I meant the latter when I clearly meant the former.
I was not pretending anything what you meant or didn't mean. I was pointing out that a materialist can avail themselves of a distinction that undermines this "criticism". For you, all the work is being done by the word "essential". I certainly don't know what you mean by that, and the materialists that I've read haven't had much use for that concept, either. In any event, if "essence" is understood in Aristotelian terms as the kind of thing that a thing is, then surely functional kinds are a kind of essence. What makes something a hammer is not its ultimate molecular constituents but whether it has the requisite gross structural properties that allow it to be used in hammering. A hammer is a hammer whether it's made of stone, metal, or wood: the functional organization is what makes it the kind of thing that it is, i.e. the essence. So why can't functional kinds be essences? Why can't the difference in function between livers and brains also be an "essential" difference?
Nope. Pyrrho, no one disputes that a brain and a liver have different functions. Do you really think I am too stupid to understand that?
I have no idea what you are too stupid to understand.
And do you really dispute that under materialism there is no essential difference between a brain and a liver in that they are both reducible to nothing more than their chemical constituents? If you do, you do not understand materialism, because that is the whole point of materialism.
Indeed, so you insist.
Not only is Pyrrho wrong, but also, again, the WHOLE POINT of materialism is that everything, including livers and brains, is ultimately reducible to nothing but its physical constituents.
So you claim. You're free to define and stipulate whatever you wish. It's a free country and it's your blog. But I suspect that on your stipulated definition of "materialism," it will turn out that there just aren't any materialists -- with the possible exception of Alex Rosenberg.PyrrhoManiac1
February 7, 2023
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