Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Usefulness of Chance & Necessity

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Over on Panda’s Thumb Arthur Hunt protests Phil Skell’s essay in Forbes where Skell describes the theory of evolution as not being useful to modern experimental biology.

Hunt goes on to give an example in how it is useful. But Hunt plays the old bait and switch game. Every honest person with some knowledge of ID knows that ID doesn’t dispute common descent as the reason why all living things are deeply related. ID disputes the notion that chance and necessity alone produced all the living things and the differences between them.

I don’t think anyone (including Phil Skell) will argue that knowing all living things are deeply related is not a sometimes valuable guiding heuristic to experimental biology. So Hunt plays the old switcheroo by giving an example where common descent provided some insight and pretending that chance & necessity is part and parcel of common descent.

This is par for the course for evolutionists. They describe common descent and call it “evolution” instead of common descent. Then they describe special creation and call it “intelligent design” instead of special creation. This is dishonest and downright pathetic. ID doesn’t dispute evolution defined as descent with modfication from one or more common ancestors over billions of years. It disputes the mechanism (chance & necessity or random mutation & natural selection) commonly ascribed as sole motive force behind the creation and diversification of life.

The need to play switcheroo with the definitions of ID and evolution in order to make their arguments is prima facie evidence that they have no compelling argument.

Comments
Upright BiPed, To be totally honest, I couldn't understand a lot of your comment. For example, you wrote:
What about necessity? Periodic results, tied to mechnical physical law.
Was that a question? If it was, for the life of me I'm not sure what it is you're asking. But I'll take a shot at it. To the best of my ability to understand your comment, it appears that you're suggesting that there is no organizing principle in evolution and that therefore there must be an intelligence guiding it. This is false. The organizing principle of evolution is selection. You spoke of strawmen in your comment. I've seen a number of bad probability calculations on this site masquerading as models of evolution. They all leave out any element of selection. Now that's a strawman.B L Harville
March 2, 2009
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Harville, Why don't you at least try to be cogent? Why the constant strawmen at every turn? Is this the only way you can argue against the ID, saying things that even a greenhorn would recognize as meaningless rhetoric? What is the qualitative profile of a chance mechanism? Independence of each result, no one individual result is coordinated with any other, a total lack of capacity to organize for function. What about necessity? Periodic results, tied to mechnical physical law. How do you square that the with selection for fitness at the nucleic level in DNA? Independence from physical law, aperiodic, organized results, pervasively coordinated for function through cascades of inter-dependant processes. Why should the chance + necessity mechanism be the only thing considered when it is woefully inadequate to the task assigned at hand. What? Add enough time and anything is possible. There's a powerful theory. Anyone who must stand by that theory may need a ideological strawman or two.Upright BiPed
March 2, 2009
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DaveScot ID doesn't seem to require anything. It's rather amorphous and non-committal to be considered a scientific theory.B L Harville
March 2, 2009
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Lisa ID doesn't require common descent. It's compatible with it but it's also compatible with special creation. Atheists reject ID because ID doesn't reject special creation. Agnostic isn't good enough for them.DaveScot
March 2, 2009
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If ID and evolution agree on common descent, then you'd think the two sides would get along better. The sole part of evolutionary theories that has any solid evidence is adaptation. Living things can adapt to their changing environments, a fact we can see by observing nature. Common descent, however, relies on fossil and genetic evidence--both of which require vast leaps in logic and a heaping shovelful of assumption. Geneticists must use computer software to analyze their genetic data. The number of times they run the data changes the result. Thus, one set of data produces "thousands of equally good but different [phylogenetic] trees," as geneticist Alan Templeton is quoted as explaining in the book African Exodus. When the evidence itself can mutate, no concrete conclusions can emerge from it. Lisa A. Shiel author of The Evolution Conspiracy http://EvolutionConspiracy.com/LisaAShiel
March 1, 2009
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Sparc, It is an American thing. Common men go nowhere. It is Uncommon men that make the world go around. "This cannot be a team of common men because common men go nowhere, You have to be uncommon." Most Americans will recognize those lines because they believe in miracles. Do you?jerry
February 28, 2009
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BL Harville invisible beings are genetically engineering species to look as though they are descended from other species that is not common descent Congratulations on describing special creation. I believe I stongly implied in the OP that special creation is not common descent. That's why the chance worshippers conflate ID and special creation. Then they conflate evolution and common descent. It's the only way they can cobble up a reasonable sounding argument and it's blatantly based on false definitions of "intelligent design" and "evolution". They conflate ID with a religious belief which is easily attacked as unscientific and they conflate evolution with common descent which is easily defended by science. The truth of the matter is that ID very comfortably accomodates common descent. The so-called blind watchmaker being responsible for everything we see is what ID disputes. What part of that don't you understand?DaveScot
February 28, 2009
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"If invisible beings are genetically engineering species to look as though they are descended from other species that is not common descent. Genetic engineering and evolution are not the same thing, " There is a couple things wrong with this. Who says they are invisible. I heard they were little green men but then someone else told me they were lizard like creatures from the Andromeda galaxy. But a very good source told me they were from a far part of the universe and used hyper space in which to travel here. You could ask Richard Dawkins who thinks they are there. And if you have a seance channel available, get a hold of Carl Sagan who thought there were millions of possibilities around. Maybe Lynn Margulis could help you contact Carl. Just make sure you know your prime numbers. Evolution is the change in the frequency of genetic elements in the population gene pool from one generation to the next. How it happens is the issue and if it has an intelligent assist by some process then it is still evolution whether you call it genetic engineering or something else.jerry
February 28, 2009
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sparc Fine, but why then uncommondescent.com? To make you ask questions. And it worked. So why do all you pro-evolution warriors gather on antievolution.org?DaveScot
February 28, 2009
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sparc said: Fine, but why then uncommondescent.com? Uncommon descent in no way implies anti-common descent.ab
February 28, 2009
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If invisible beings are genetically engineering species to look as though they are descended from other species that is not common descent. Genetic engineering and evolution are not the same thing, DaveScot. You are the one playing word games.B L Harville
February 28, 2009
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Embarrassment mode: I seem to have read the wrong post on the pandasthumb blog, so please ignore my previous comment as it is unrelated. Except the bit about me being new, that bit shouldn't be ignored as it's my excuse!saywhatyouwill
February 28, 2009
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Hello, I'm new! It's certainly an interesting study but even YECs have no problem with 'macroevolution' when all it means is 'speciation'. A new organelle hasn't been found but something could be, possibly, in the 'first stage' of creating one! I'm convinced. No...wait...I'm not.saywhatyouwill
February 28, 2009
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The Ptolemaic universe was useful for predicting the position of stars and planets, but that didn't make it true. In the same way, ID can account for the same data in nature and all the data that Darwinism couldn't.Saint and Sinner
February 28, 2009
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I'm convinced that the reason for these constant switch-ups - where, over and over, ID is equated with YEC, with denying evolution writ large, with common descent, etc - is because the very prospect of someone accepting evolution, even common descent, while at the same time examining biology and natural history with design and intelligence in mind is frightening to many people. As near as I can tell, the source of the fright is this: Nature and natural history is overwhelming with (strong) indications of design, intelligence, foresight, and more, at all levels. And for many, these scientific fields are supposed to be the sole and exclusive property of people who deny intelligence, purpose, and such in nature. It was assumed that those who saw those things in nature were committed to scientifically unfashionable positions (very young earth, no common descent, no evolution, etc), so that no evaluation of mainstream science and history for ID was possible. If that's not the case, then what was 'sole and exclusive property' no longer is anymore - and suddenly people who thought science bolstered their view of the world and theirs alone are being told, no: Actually it seems to bolster others' views equally well, or moreso. Even if such an argument is inconclusive, that's hard to accept.nullasalus
February 28, 2009
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Dave, One of my favorite expressions to describe the anti ID people is "The dog barking in the night" from Silver Blase and Sherlock Holmes. But the dog did not bark in the night the man said to Holmes. There was no intruder for the dog to bark at. And that is how the mystery was solved. If the Darwinist had something, they would be barking all through the night. But the Darwinist don't bark either on Panda's Thumb or when they come here. They nitpick here or over there, they distort.jerry
February 28, 2009
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Dave, the article that the PT post was responding to did not single out commen descent, or natural selection, or any other part of evolution specifically. it said evolution as a whole, which includes common descent. actually, Skell really emphasizes common descent as studied, for example, through paleontology:
Contrary to the beliefs of Professor Coyne and some other defenders of Darwin, these advances are not due to studies of an organism's ancestors that are recovered from fossil deposits. Those rare artifacts--which have been preserved as fossils--are impressions in stones which, even when examined with the heroic efforts of paleontologists, cannot reveal the details that made these amazing living organisms function
so the PT post was not "bait-and-switch", it responded directly to the points made in Skell's article.Khan
February 28, 2009
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ID doesn’t dispute evolution defined as descent with modfication from one or more common ancestors over billions of years.
Fine, but why then uncommondescent.com?sparc
February 28, 2009
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