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We Cannot, in Principle, “Know” Whether a Machine is Conscious

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Most people who frequent these pages are familiar with the Turing Test.  Turing proposed that a judge would evaluate text responses from a machine and a human.  If the judge could not tell which was human, the machine would have passed the test.  The Turing Test measures machine intelligence based on a communication metric.  In other words, if the AI can talk like a human, it is as intelligent as a human.

Some researchers, like our own Robert Marks, think the Turing Test is too easy.  They say creativity, not mere communication, is the real measure of human intelligence, and they have advanced the “Lovelace Test” as a superior alternative.  An AI would pass the Lovelace Test by doing something “surprising.”  For example, the AI could be asked to write a story, and the AI would pass if the programmer could not explain how the AI come up with the story.  The AI would, itself, be considered creative, as opposed to an extension of its creator’s creativity (as is the case with chess and Go playing computers).

If an AI were able to pass both the Turing Test and the Lovelace Test, would we then know it is conscious in the same way humans are conscious?  No.  The reason for this conclusion, which might be surprising for some, is simple.  We can’t “know” that even other humans are conscious; far less can we know that an AI is conscious.

Whoa Barry.  Get a grip.  Are you suggesting that you do not know other humans are conscious?  In a sense, Yes I am.  By its very nature, consciousness, as evidenced by subjective self-awareness, can be known only by subjective experience.  And I can have subjective experience only of my own self.  I cannot be subjectively self-aware of any other self.  It follows, that I can be certain only of my own consciousness.

Of course, by no means am I denying that other humans are conscious.  I feel confident they are.  I am merely saying that I can experience only my own consciousness.  My own experience of consciousness is the primary evidence of the fact that I am conscious.  I cannot have primary evidence that any other person is conscious.  I can infer to a very high degree of confidence that other humans are conscious, but that inference is based on secondary evidence.  To use a crude example, I regard my own empathy as an attribute of my consciousness.  When my wife cries at the end of Old Yeller, I infer from this outward reaction that she also has empathy.  And from this I infer further that her empathy is an attribute of her consciousness just as mine is, and therefore she in fact is conscious.  But I cannot know that she is in the same way that I know that I am.  Conceivably, my wife is an AI programmed to shed tears when a beloved pet dies.  I am very confident that is not the case, but I cannot know it for certain.

These are not original ideas.  There is a large literature based on the concept of the “philosophical zombie” based on the insight that we cannot experience another person’s consciousness; we can only infer it.  If we can only infer (and not know) another human is consciousness, it follows that no matter how sophisticated an AI is, we can never know that it is conscious.  If an AI becomes so powerful that we cannot distinguish it from a human, we might infer that it is conscious, but we will never be able to know it for certain.

Comments
Allan Keith, Right. But when you say, "even in the unlikekely [sic] event that it is an illusion", what do you mean by "illusion" here?mike1962
April 21, 2018
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Mike, sorry, my comment at 36 wasn’t saying that consciousness was an illusion. I apologize for my poor wording. I was just saying that consciousness, even in the unlikekely event that it is an illusion... and so on.Allan Keith
April 20, 2018
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Allan Keith, You never answered @36.mike1962
April 20, 2018
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Allan Keith @ 35 Your point is taken that we can't gain certainty that computers cannot become consciousness. However, I stand by my statement that it is highly dubious. At the very least we can say that there is no reason to think that the inert processing of information has anything to do with consciousness, though it may be skillfully manipulated to mimic it. If computers gain consciousness, or if they have already done so, then there's something absolutely axiomatic at work that we don't know about. It cannot be surmised from the appearance of consciousness.hnorman5
April 13, 2018
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mike1962 I don't mean to say I've had only two, but that I've had only two I can remember. They fade almost immediately upon waking, from thought and memory. "I simply asked a question based on the criteria you specified." Forgive me but I doubt this. The characters I encounter in my dreams are fundamentally distinct from the characters I encounter in my waking moments, in many ways. As stated, there is no real doubt (not in my mind nor yours, I wager) that one is not conscious and the other is. This posturing and playing for the sake of pretending to ironclad logical consistency is merely tiresome. There's neither necessity nor sense in pretending that consciousness is illusory merely because its form most common to our experience is inextricably associated with matter. Parse that proposition as you may, there's nothing of logic in it.ScuzzaMan
April 12, 2018
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To admin: I wish you'd convert over to Discus. It's a lot better than this blog system. In so many ways.mike1962
April 11, 2018
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ScuzzaMan: our direct, personal, subjective experiences of other people leaves us in no actual doubt that they’re as conscious as we are. Since you have extremely sparse experience with dreaming, I will withdraw the question from you. But anyone else is welcome to answer, if they agree with your original criteria.mike1962
April 11, 2018
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ScuzzaMan: I can remember two dreams in the last 50 years. Interesting. But I’m not clear as to the relevance of your question; are you trying to imply there’s no distinction between waking and dreaming states, or are you trying to avoid admitting you’ve implied that? I simply asked a question based on the criteria you specified. So is the answer yes or no? Or would you like to add more criteria?mike1962
April 11, 2018
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@Barry "If so, we do not disagree." I sometimes forget that other people don't share my odd sense of humour, so forgive me if my comment seemed dismissive or overly critical. I should probably have simply said that I think that's where I see a discontinuity in your logic chain.ScuzzaMan
April 11, 2018
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@mike1962 "When you dream, I assume you encounter people who appear and act every bit as human as you do. Are these dream characters conscious?" I can remember two dreams in the last 50 years. But I'm not clear as to the relevance of your question; are you trying to imply there's no distinction between waking and dreaming states, or are you trying to avoid admitting you've implied that?ScuzzaMan
April 11, 2018
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Allan Keith: the only thing we have certainty about, even if it is an illusion, is our own consciousness. If consciousness is an illusion, what is it an illusion of? Consciousness is what it is. To refer to it as (possibly) an "illusion" implies that there is some actuality to which the illusion is a false representation. For example, mirages in the desert appear to be puddles of water but they are not. They are illusions. But puddles of water actually exist in the world so it is appropriate to call mirages that appear to be puddles, "illusions of puddles." Mirages are an illusion of puddles of water, but they are not. Please fill in the blank: Consciousness is an illusion of _____ but it is not.mike1962
April 11, 2018
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hnorman5,
Perfecting a simulation is not the same as making something real. As for AIs giving us a Turing test, I suppose it’s conceptually possible. But it would be an unconscious process on their part.
I tend to agree with you. But that is merely a subjective opinion. As Barry suggests, there is no way to know for sure because the only thing we have certainty about, even if it is an illusion, is our own consciousness. Through our observations of countless other people, we are fairly certain that they are conscious as well, but that is still short of certainty. And as I mentioned, if the machine behaves, acts and reacts in ways that we would expect other humans to do, why would we say that other humans are conscious but the machine is not? Just because we know the machine was designed and built? And if that is the reason, would the fact that humans were designed not suggest that we are not conscious either?Allan Keith
April 11, 2018
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Allan Keith Perfecting a simulation is not the same as making something real. As for AIs giving us a Turing test, I suppose it's conceptually possible. But it would be an unconscious process on their part.hnorman5
April 10, 2018
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hnorman5,
There’s not much of a strategy for creating a conscious machine but to improve its power to mimic consciousness. Then we just hope there’s an axiom of nature that says that once the illusion gets good enough it turns real. It’s highly dubious.
Why? If the “illusion” gets good enough to fool everyone, then how is this “illusion” any less conscious than we are? But, more importantly, what would we do if these AIs came up with their own Turing test and found us lacking?Allan Keith
April 10, 2018
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There's not much of a strategy for creating a conscious machine but to improve its power to mimic consciousness. Then we just hope there's an axiom of nature that says that once the illusion gets good enough it turns real. It's highly dubious.hnorman5
April 10, 2018
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The Turing Test isn't really a test of awareness, it's just a test of scamming ability. How well does the machine convince you of its false claim? Is it up to the standards of Bitcoin salesmen, or only as good as a Nigerian Prince? Faking is one of the tasks that every living thing performs all the time, so you could argue that the Turing Test is a partial measure of aliveness. I don't think the argument works, but it's closer to the mark than the conventional notion that Turing measures awareness.polistra
April 10, 2018
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jdk:
I think science is great.
All indications say that you don't know what science is.ET
April 10, 2018
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I think it is actually a quite good representation of your worldview,,,, Again:
“I don’t believe that any metaphysical system that people believe is “true”: they are creative inventions which we have built to explain things that we can’t truly know about.” – jdk
and again:
Your belief is that metaphysical truth can’t be known. I am left to ask you how you can possibly know that your particular metaphysical truth, that metaphysical truth can’t be known, can be known? Your claim is a self-defeating claim. You exempt yourself from your very own criticism and claim to have knowledge which you yourself say can’t be possessed. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixing-the-unfixable-drake-equation/#comment-655979
Like I said, " the starting presumption and ultimate consequence of your metaphysics is best explained by the term “complete ignorance” Moreover, as also pointed out in that thread, the very success of modern science, since it was born out of the Judeo-Christian worldview alone, points to the truthfulness inherent in the Judeo-Christian worldview. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixing-the-unfixable-drake-equation/#comment-655979 A false worldview would be unable to bring forth an endeavor, modern science, that has been so fruitful for modern man! And your self-defeating worldview of 'we can't know anything except to know that we can't know anything" :) is definitely a false worldview that would have prevented the rise of modern science if it were to have been widely believed in medieval Christian Europe.bornagain77
April 10, 2018
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ScuzzaMan: Because our direct, personal, subjective experiences of other people leaves us in no actual doubt that they’re as conscious as we are. When you dream, I assume you encounter people who appear and act every bit as human as you do. Are these dream characters conscious?mike1962
April 10, 2018
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But seeing as you shun science in favor of your own personal opinion of, ‘complete ignorance is our only option’,
Hmmm. This is quite a misrepresentation. I think science is great. I am discussing the nature and limitations of metaphysics, which is about things that science can't investigate. The mind of God is metaphysics.jdk
April 10, 2018
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as to:
"I definitely don’t believe in reincarnation!"
How would you ever possibly know one way or the other? According to your ever shifting self-contradicting metaphysics, (which just so happens to lean heavily towards Eastern mysticism whenever you get cornered on materialism), (and which shuns science at the drop of a hat I might add), there is no definiteness to ever to be had in any worldview.
"I don’t believe that any metaphysical system that people believe is “true”: they are creative inventions which we have built to explain things that we can’t truly know about." - jdk
Obviously, the starting presumption and ultimate consequence of your metaphysics is best explained by the term "complete ignorance" This morning Origenes also showed that your belief system is either self-defeating or meaningless
,,, a tentative belief that all beliefs are held tentatively. 4. (1) is either self-defeating or meaningless. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixing-the-unfixable-drake-equation/#comment-656002
I've looked up aleta's past interactions with Barry and others on UD, and yes the term troll applies to you aleta. Barry has corrected you a number of times for your trollish comments that try to drag a thread off topic, Although I do not know if you were eventually banned by Barry, I do know you were corrected several times for trollish behavior. FWIW, I personally consider your debating style to be disingenuous and therefore trollish in its character. And again, if you are going to defend Eastern Mysticism against both materialism and Theism, then do so. Don't pussyfoot around the edges and only duck into Eastern Mysticism when called on your buffs trying to defend materialism. A good place for you to start defending Eastern mysticism, and/or Pantheism, is to offer scientific evidence supporting your view that consciousness is co-terminus with either the entire universe or with the particles of the universe.,,, But seeing as you shun science in favor of your own personal opinion of, 'complete ignorance is our only option', I don't hold much hope of any challenges ever coming from you in this area of science. But alas, that is how it always goes with trolls is it not?!? Moreover, I've already laid out my scientific defense for Theism (post 15), from quantum mechanics, that shows consciousness must precede the entire universe, and that all other worldviews therefore, necessarily, fail to explain the scientific evidence.bornagain77
April 10, 2018
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Jdk,
I have no idea what your definition of troll is.
For this commenter, it usually refers to anyone who disagrees with him. That is why a rarely respond to his comments.Allan Keith
April 10, 2018
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ScuzzaMan,
Because our direct, personal, subjective experiences of other people leaves us in no actual doubt that they’re as conscious as we are.* Can we prove it? Can we pry open their consciousness in a lab and measure it, filter it, sample it, quantify it, identify its constituent elements? No
. You seem to be making a point similar to the one KF made at 2. If so, we do not disagree.Barry Arrington
April 10, 2018
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Bob and William You do not need to have direct experience of another person's consciousness (a metaphysical notion if there ever was one) to have direct experience of another person. When a normal person says or writes "person" they're not speaking of a man-shaped machine, but a conscious self-willed autonomous, thinking being, usually a human being. It is built into the very definition. Why? Because our direct, personal, subjective experiences of other people leaves us in no actual doubt that they're as conscious as we are.* Can we prove it? Can we pry open their consciousness in a lab and measure it, filter it, sample it, quantify it, identify its constituent elements? No. (That is, after all, the entirety of the materialist's point: we cannot do these things to consciousness so in order to impress us with their muscular intellectual consistency they pretend they don't believe in consciousness, relegating even their own to an illusion, a fantasy, a mirage. To the best of our knowledge only conscious beings can experience illusions? C'est la vie.) That doesn't mean we don't have direct experience of other people. That was my point. ... * when people come at this argument from the other direction, positing that ALL existence is an illusion created by the single mind experiencing it, I advise an immediate and brutal punch in the face. Then ask them why they imagined a universe in which imaginary people punch them in the face? If they try and sue you, recline in the knowledge they just contradicted themselves. Ponder it in your cell, if you like.ScuzzaMan
April 10, 2018
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The bigger issue is if consciousness reduces to a configuration of matter, then the same configuration instantiated in different lumps of matter is the same consciousness. Yet, if my brain is destroyed and then reconstructed on the planet Xendra, I do not suddenly regain consciousness on Xendra. I just cease to exist. What we witnessed on Star Trek is Scotty constantly slaughtering his crew.EricMH
April 10, 2018
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ba77 writes,
Moreover, rumor has it that you are a reincarnated troll,, ‘krebs’,,, Is this true?
Hmmm, Mr. Cunningham, I definitely don't believe in reincarnation! :-) 1. Several people here know my real name, as I have stated it several times, although I have never posted here under that name. jdk are my initials. I have posted here under other names before I decided to no longer remain anonymous. FTR, I think I posted as hazel and aleta, and perhaps someone else. Over the years I've also posted at ISCID and ARN, but that was long ago. I'm not trying to hide anything about who I am. 2. I have no idea what your definition of troll is. Wikipedia says,
In Internet slang, a troll (/tro?l, tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.
I don't believe that description applies to me. 3. When I wrote, "Mind and matter could be a yin/yang pair, as is held by Taoism", you replied
Moreover, you are the one claiming that “I don’t believe that any metaphysical system that people believe is “true”: they are creative inventions which we have built to explain things that we can’t truly know about.” Thus why in blue blazes are you dissing both materialism and Theism and favoring some type of Eastern mysticism?
Although I like Eastern thought on some of these issues (I have written about that before), I only offer it as an example of why your statement, "Either Mind is primary and matter is derivative, or else matter is primary and mind is derivative", is not the only logical choice. As I have explained, we create metaphysical stories for useful human purposes, to help us make the most sense of the world, but they aren't true ontologically. It is not inconsistent for me to believe what I do about our inability to know the Truth about metaphysics and to offer alternative ways of explaining something that you offer as a metaphysical fact, for the sake of showing that there are multiple ways of understanding what might be true. 4. You write, "As I said, as far as the science is concerned, Theism is a slam dunk." And I don't believe that is true: that is what we are discussing.jdk
April 10, 2018
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ScuzzaMan @18 - I don't see how Barry's experiences of other people's consciousness can be anything other than secondary. He can't think other people*s thought for them, at beast he can hear them say what their thoughts are, but I think Barry would argue that that would be secondary evidence (FWIW, that's what I would argue).Bob O'H
April 10, 2018
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ScuzzaMan said:
I think this is where Barry jumped the shark. His experience of his own consciousness is, he says, “primary” evidence. But somehow his experience of other people is “secondary”. No, I don’t think so.
Direct personal experience is primary and empirical. Someone telling you that they also have direct personal experience is secondary and testimonial in nature.William J Murray
April 10, 2018
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"I can infer to a very high degree of confidence that other humans are conscious, but that inference is based on secondary evidence." I think this is where Barry jumped the shark. His experience of his own consciousness is, he says, "primary" evidence. But somehow his experience of other people is "secondary". No, I don't think so.ScuzzaMan
April 10, 2018
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I don't think you are reading for clarity,,, That is why I used ‘epi-phenomena’ in my argument from quantum mechanics, i.e. I included in my argument, besides materialism, ALL the worldviews that hold consciousness to be, basically, co-terminus with material reality. i.e. My quantum mechanical argument for God from consciousness applies to all worldviews that would seek to challenge Theism.,,, i.e. challenge the Mind of God preceding all of reality. As I said, as far as the science is concerned, Theism is a slam dunk. Moreover, you are the one claiming that "I don’t believe that any metaphysical system that people believe is “true”: they are creative inventions which we have built to explain things that we can’t truly know about." Thus why in blue blazes are you dissing both materialism and Theism and favoring some type of Eastern mysticism? Are you finally settling on a worldview that you will actually try to defend? Or is all this just more pointless posturing on your part where you ignore science in favor of your own personal opinions? My bet is on the later! Moreover, rumor has it that you are a reincarnated troll,, 'krebs',,, Is this true? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/fixing-the-unfixable-drake-equation/#comment-655986bornagain77
April 9, 2018
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